<!--quoteo(post=1810338:date=Nov 25 2010, 02:59 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Nov 25 2010, 02:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810338"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No matter how you do it, you do it wrong... in ns1 most ppl hated to build stuff...,so its taken away in ns2... you take it away and suddently all ppl want is to build stuff again... you guys are crazy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong
It has been one of NS1 features that set it apart from the dozens of other FPS MP mods for HL1, if people would have "hated it" then nobody would have build the base at round start. The truth is plenty of people stayed to build even when 1 would have been enough. Heck it had been one of the reasons why i even gave NS a try in the first place when a friend told me "you build your base on the map wherever you want!". I clearly remember the first time i spawned into a NS game... from an IP in an totaly crazy reloc and everything looked totaly chaotic but i liked it exactly because of that.
The simplest reason for not migrating too many actions to the MAC/Drifter is because of gameplay diversity, it doesn't matter if it's just "holding down E". It gave people options, somebody who sucks at killing stuff could allways help the team as base monkey or on welder duty for the HA train. This is mostly gone now, i would like to go into more detail right now but i'm at work so don't have much time.
Sure NS2 wants to be simplyfied, the question is if we really want to simplify NS so much that it no more resembles what made NS unique in the first place? Because that's the fine line we have to watch out for...
<!--quoteo(post=1810348:date=Nov 25 2010, 02:42 PM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Nov 25 2010, 02:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810348"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sentries and Hydras were in NS1.
If they got removed, you'd be upset.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did not say they should be removed. I like ocs and sentries. In NS1 they were not importent. You could built them but mostly they were a waist of res. In NS2 it seems that this "bots" become very importat by the way the gorge is now and the fact that you no longer need a tf leeds to strategys where spamming sentries might be a good choice. This is what i dont't like.
I experienced oc spam so often in small games in the past, when ns1 no longer was played much. I really don't want to see it as major destiny of the gorge.
I think it might be too early to judge the ai builders especially since a lot of features are missing or not working correctly. In any case, i would prefer it if players had more interaction with the world. Perhaps make the ai builders slower than marine/gorge at building or repairing. That way we will get the best of both worlds. You can use the ai builders but thing will take more time to complete, or players can be used for faster completion.
<!--quoteo(post=1810338:date=Nov 25 2010, 01:59 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Nov 25 2010, 01:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810338"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Tell me what are they really taking away? You cant build stuff? wrong - you still can... comm doesnt need to send you a mac
The one time every skulk went gorge to build a single rt in a game?(wow, that tactic needed an iq of 175 for sure) Leaving the rest to 1 gorge, that was building stuff in 1st person instead of commander view...
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro--> - Marine feels less connected to commander (building structures were essentially way points/goals)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Even more important than to just stand there and press "E" is to guard this keyarea or rt, and make it stay alive...(macs are dead in 2hits, powernodes can be destroyed from the start of a match) thats the essential waypoint/goal. You cant just place and forget stuff in ns2... you need the powernodes and buildings to stay online. The mac is just like a visible mousecursor from the comm. In ns1 you watched the back of player xy - in ns2 you and xy watch the back of a mac/or do it like in ns1 - commanders decision. Energy is a slow regen + caped res, macs are expensive an very vulnerable... you cant afford to not protect them, because without macs - you cant repair powernodes and structures for a long time. => killing your economy. (if the numbers are adjusted in the future)
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->- Marine feels that he has no purpose (no goals except kill stuff)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Get more RT, gain more areas on the map, get Techpoints,protect your builders, get portable powernodes into key position etc - i dont see the any change in duty.. - killing was always the way how you archived stuff. <!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro--> - Roles have become more divided<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> why?
No matter how you do it, you do it wrong... in ns1 most ppl hated to build stuff...,so its taken away in ns2... you take it away and suddently all ppl want is to build stuff again... you guys are crazy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not against build bots, but they put more work on the commander (more time spent building, repairing, power nodes, etc) and the marines no longer have 'goals', such as hold a position and defend a guy whilst his team mate builds. You do not 'feel' as much for the build bots.
[In NS1 there was a clear relationship between building and surviving, because aliens always targeted squad members who were buidling]
Now things are more divided and both commander and marines can pretty much do whatever they like and they do no effect each other, only in that by the commander building stuff you get more weapons/upgrades. But he is not 'commanding' in the definition of the word. There is a more divided relationship because your goals are just 'run around and kill stuff'.
It effects communication with players, supply, removes the commander as a possible adviser (maybe he can see more/has powers to know more and can advise squads).
I do not think the answer is to revert to NS1, but make building and repairing more stream lined so that it takes up less time and that time can be sent on the front line, advising and helping players. Also players need short term rewards for small tasks (holding a position, defending a mac, etc)...
So many time as commander I am building in an area, and I am so busy doing that and not having any control over players, that they run into the next room after aliens, all die and then the room I was building in gets chomped. They just do not obey commands when I am selecting a group of them and clicking on the ground behind them, because there is no reward or punishment if they do/do not.
Players do not see the long term implications, only short term. That is why people run around gunning, because it is fun and adrenaline inducing. What they do not realise is that losing a room in the big picture is worse than they realise. Because implications are long term, i.e. the eventual loss of the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1810339:date=Nov 25 2010, 10:07 AM:name=gimpyboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gimpyboy @ Nov 25 2010, 10:07 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810339"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->i guess we ns1 fans are screwed
cheers gimpy<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I guess NS1 fans are screwed if they are expecting NS2 to be NS1.
NS2 is NOT the same game as NS1. How many times does this need to be repeated? Believe it or not, NS1 was not perfect. It was not the pinnacle of PC gaming. What this means is that NS2 has the potential to be just as good as NS1, only in different ways.
Telling us that NS2 won't be any good because it doesn't have X or Y feature from NS1 is just idiotic. That's like saying Starcraft 2 isn't any good because marines can't build stuctures or because there's an alien (Zerg) commander. Yes, NS1 and Starcraft 2 are different games. So are NS1 and NS2. By the same token, I could say NS1 isn't any good because it doesn't have power nodes, or dynamic infestation, or a unified resource model. I bet if NS1 was originally released with all the features of NS2, and NS2 was being developed with all the features of NS1, you'd have the exact same people in an outcry.
<!--quoteo(post=1810355:date=Nov 25 2010, 11:01 AM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Nov 25 2010, 11:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810355"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure NS2 wants to be simplyfied, the question is if we really want to simplify NS so much that it no more resembles what made NS unique in the first place? Because that's the fine line we have to watch out for...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What made NS unique was a successful blend of RTS and FPS elements with two asymmetrical teams. NS2 can accomplish this without being the same as NS1. NS2 can accomplish this while still having MACs and Drifters and Alien Commanders. Think about what's actually being simplified (and I mean THINK), and think about what new things NS2 has to offer. I think the two balance each other out quite well. For every thing that is being "removed", something new takes its place.
Also, because someone brought up again the issue of marine-commander interaction: after playing the beta, I can say that the addition of MACs greatly helps <i>reinforce</i> the marine-commander relationship, because they allow you to physically see what the commander is doing. As Koruyo nicely put it, the MACs are like the physical manifestation of the commander's mouseclicks. When you play as a Marine, seeing MACs flying around, it's like the commander is actually there in the fight, personally. And since the commander directly controls the MACs, in a sense he is. This is what I mean when I say, for every thing that is "removed", something new takes its place. The marine-commander relationship still exists, just in a different form.
<!--quoteo(post=1810370:date=Nov 25 2010, 05:06 PM:name=Donner & Blitzen)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Donner & Blitzen @ Nov 25 2010, 05:06 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810370"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What made NS unique was a successful blend of RTS and FPS elements with two asymmetrical teams. NS2 can accomplish this without being the same as NS1. NS2 can accomplish this while still having MACs and Drifters and Alien Commanders. Think about what's actually being simplified (and I mean THINK), and think about what new things NS2 has to offer. I think the two balance each other out quite well. For every thing that is being "removed", something new takes its place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I seriously doubt it's as simple as that, "oh it combined this and that and because of it it's been successfull". Something working is the end result of serveral mechanics working together the way they do, the successful blend worked well because of the way it has been achieved and not just because it simply "worked". Everything is the end result of the sum of it's parts, same applies to games. Counter Strike isn't successfull just because it's Counter Strike, it's successfull because of the (back then) new game mechanics, balance and gameplay working in a unique way together and not just because somebody put all these things somehow together.
Right now i don't see to many new things except an AI bot flying around doing things that real players used to do, that's it. Sure there is more to come, DI, portable powerpoints jada jada but these things are not in right now so i'm sharing my view of the current situation that's the only viable way to share a view.
Of course i could imagine UWE adding 1 billion awesome things they COULD add that COULD change something but that isn't the point. The point is thinking/talking about the situation right now. And right now to me it feels like alot of gameplay diversity has gone missing on the grunt level of gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1810372:date=Nov 25 2010, 05:14 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Nov 25 2010, 05:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810372"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->oh boy... donner, you speak out of my soul.
As i say it all the time too, ppl dont really THINK... and after so many posts - i guess they dont read either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not how a discussion works... you can't claim the absolute truth for you by just claiming everybody except for you doesn't think.
It really annoys me that people on here state their opinions and claim that everyone else is wrong.
You tell me:
- If the commander has squad controls for players - If the supply method requires dropping ammo/health
Why are these so clumsy and rarely used?
Surely the commander should be at the front, talking on the mic, advising players... being able to supply ammo and health at the right times. At the moment this is rarely possible, because you are expected to do everything to the same degree.
Therefore you spend too much time doing everything not that well, rather than doing certain jobs very well.
There should be 'much' more interaction with players! Commanders should be talking down the mics, telling people what to do, telling them to hold a room whilst he builds and players should be rewarded for that.
If you think a 'build bot floating around' is a good relationship between comm and players in a 'ON-LINE GAME' with the potential to be much much more... I am saddened that you do not see more potential.
The commander to players should feel like he is on your shoulder, protecting your interests - like he is another player in your squad but better. Not just a bot floating around building a structure every now and then, and not quite being able to drop health before you die.
Do you at the moment know what intentions the commander ever has? Because I don't. Where is he going to build? Is he going to push to a certain area or just build slowly out from the base?
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro--> I'm not against build bots, but they put more work on the commander (more time spent building, repairing, power nodes, etc) and the marines no longer have 'goals', such as hold a position and defend a guy whilst his team mate builds. You do not 'feel' as much for the build bots.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
You dont feel as much atm because numbers are still wrong. Its not a big deal to lose a mac atm, but it should/will be. You will start to feel for them, after your teams economy gets down because of this, lots destroyed powernodes, structures etc... commanders are yelling like crazy at you to protect the macs droping buildings/repair nodes... and if all fails, and the maconly managed to drop a structure... you still have option the build the stuff yourself. Or because of the small maps and fast aliens.. you need to assist building important structures, to get them up in time for the next wave of aliens... I had a lot of this situations as comm already. <!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->
[In NS1 there was a clear relationship between building and surviving, because aliens always targeted squad members who were buidling]<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Now they target the mac first or dance around it using it as a bullet shield... and kill u while reloading...
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->Now things are more divided and both commander and marines can pretty much do whatever they like and they do no effect each other, only in that by the commander building stuff you get more weapons/upgrades. But he is not 'commanding' in the definition of the word. There is a more divided relationship because your goals are just 'run around and kill stuff'.
It effects communication with players, supply, removes the commander as a possible adviser (maybe he can see more/has powers to know more and can advise squads).<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Some important stuff is still missing so its impossible to manage squads atm... you dont know if or who wants a medpack/ammo (no audio alert, you cant see hp bars of your marines, droping medpacks on players deselect the comstation and selects the player etc.) You dont know which marines is in which squad, if grouping works, how many squad hotgroups you have... or if they work. You dont know atm if waypoints are working for ppl, you dont get feedback if ppl arrive there, you dont know if a waypoint is bugged for the marines - so it doesnt go away and stays there for the whole match. you dont know if a marines needs orders (alert doesnt work for the comm) and if, you dont know which marine said it and where. Mac still got issues with ghostbuilding multtiple structures... macs dont autorepair, u dont see structure hp without select and deselecting every crappy building... You cant research multible things on a structure (hold in the line - so it upgrades one stuff after another and you dont have to visit this building every few secs) =>you have to klick every building every few sec to see if a research is ready... etc ITS VERY HARD TO BE COMM ATM... SO MUCH MISSING - OFC THERE IS NO TIME TO COMMAND MARINES. (its no yelling, just highlighting) Ofc rambo solo rines affect coms gameplay... you cant expand, just turtle and lose if your rines dont work togehter or push the right way... if res is tweaked i dont think with whip bombards gorge bacteria etc turtling will be an effective tactic anymore.
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro--> I do not think the answer is to revert to NS1, but make building and repairing more stream lined so that it takes up less time and that time can be sent on the front line, advising and helping players. Also players need short term rewards for small tasks (holding a position, defending a mac, etc)...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> A lot stuff is still missing as i already said 1231 times... you dont know if we need changes before you even know what features there really are. <!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro--> So many time as commander I am building in an area, and I am so busy doing that and not having any control over players, that they run into the next room after aliens, all die and then the room I was building in gets chomped. They just do not obey commands when I am selecting a group of them and clicking on the ground behind them, because there is no reward or punishment if they do/do not.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> I guess i already answered this, its hard atm i know... i always play com on both sides. <!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro--> Players do not see the long term implications, only short term. That is why people run around gunning, because it is fun and adrenaline inducing. What they do not realise is that losing a room in the big picture is worse than they realise. Because implications are long term, i.e. the eventual loss of the game.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Its a beta, overwhelmed comms/ ppl that know nothing about this game - missing features...this will get better.
I'm liking the alien com a lot :) sorta feel sorry for the gorge though, feels less useful than before, atm all you pretty much do is spam hydras (which are killing servers, STOP SPAMMING HYDRAS).
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Of course i could imagine UWE adding 1 billion awesome things they COULD add that COULD change something but that isn't the point. The point is thinking/talking about the situation right now. And right now to me it feels like alot of gameplay diversity has gone missing on the grunt level of gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But ppl can do it the other way around, and demand a change to the old ns1 system without even knowing the complete package? I dont think so sir.
And no, i dont think nobody here is able to think. Its just, some people are repeating the same stuff over and over again without joining the conversation... i dont think it helps if i 'd just write "QQ ns2 - Ns1 is the one true god" every 5min.
See I totally support what you have said (or some of it at least) Koruyo, but would like for it to be taken further.
The issue is, while you have stated 'this will change'... how do you know it will for a fact? We all know there is more to add, but how much and what is being changed?
Steam lining the UI does not mean they will change the way things happen necessarily...
well then you could make a new thread to improve the current com ui system and demand an offical reply...without changing the whole mechanic. (making it ns1)
Or we just wait until they say this is how they wanted it, and if we dont like it - we can still complain and demand a change. We cant know how what will be changed or how what will be added... until they tell us it is final, there isnt much to do
But as ns1 didnt start with version 3.x ns2 wont start compleatly balanced and worked out... this are games that will change over time, some times only a bit, sometimes radical.
UWE wont just release it and stop working on it.
edit: its actually sad that some of us dont have enough trust in uwe. - i mean they did an good job with ns1... dont u think?
<!--quoteo(post=1810369:date=Nov 25 2010, 10:59 AM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Nov 25 2010, 10:59 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810369"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->[..] You do not 'feel' as much for the build bots. [..]<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I donno why that would be, bots cost money, players are free. I feel much more inclined to save the one person that can build as opposed to in NS1 where anyone could build, and if they died I took their place.
If a skulk is biting your friend, and another a build bot... you will shoot the one biting your friend first. I guarantee that, as he is paramount to your survival more than the bot.
Depends from where these skulks are coming, why i didnt hear them... and where we are standing.
If the mac is between me and my squadmember id shoot the skulk on the mac fist - because this skulk closer to me and i cant know if he stays on the mac..
That is pedantic... the matter of the fact is, if directly in front of you there was a skulk going for a bot and another for your mate, the sensible thing is to shoot the one going for your mate.
Two situations (there are more) would occur:
1. Your friend dies, then it is you vs a skulk. 2. The bot dies, then it is you and your mate vs a skulk.
If you go for the bot first you are defying logic. Not only that, but your relationship with other players is a lot stronger than with NPCs, even if this is something you are not concious of when you are playing. A bot can not fight (to the standard you can) either.
Well i know my shooting skills, if there is a skulk closer to me than iam to my friend, and i have to asume it will attack me the secound i look somewhere else - i would kill this skulk first.
Assumed this happens like you said, ofc i do it like u said.
But it still depends. if the mac is building something important like an ip/ops with distress beacon(ppl respawn next to the ops)/ a sentry/command station etc...- or i know reinforcements are around the corner - i would try to sacrfice my life to buy the mac some more time finishing the construction. Maps arent as big as in ns1... usually ppl are coming fast.
edit: if i know the life of a mac is a hughe impact on economy/whatever... i would try to kill the skulk on the mac - and shout in teamspeak the commander should run a way with this mac.
Yeah but that is not the argument. I am not bothering to post in this thread if you are just pushing an idea becauase you want to be right.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Assumed this happens like you said, chances are very high that i do it like u said.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which means you value a fellow player more than the build bot, ergo, what I said was the truth. You are being pedantic for the sake of being right. You are cooking up stupid situations.
You might as well say:
If I was fighting a skulk attacking a bot, and there was a marine being attacked across the other side of the map. I would shoot the one attacking the bot.
what? 6 pages of thread in 1-2 days? needless to say, tldr..
check out my gorge idea: <a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111628" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=111628</a>
I discuss on here to find the truth. I stated something logical that he agreed with and then he made up some pedantic response to deny what the truth of the argument was.
It was nothing to do with me being right, it has everything to do with having a proper discussion on here. Not just forcing views on people because you want to be right.
I will gladly admit when I am wrong, because if you can admit you learn to always find the truth of a situation. That truth is 'what is best for NS2?'. Not 'this is really cool, I really liked it, i want, i want, i want'...
But what I stated was essentially 1 + 1 = 2, it is logical, it is the truth. Given a set situation like I stated you would make that decision, and would be wrong to otherwise. It does not contain possibilities of 'there is a building in the way'. It boils the situation down to a simple form to find a truth.
2 people vs a skulk 1 Person vs a skulk
Mathematically and statistically 2 is better than 1. Ie, the build bot is not as valuable as a person.
Also you have to factor in player to player relationships on servers, which will always be strong relationships than with NPCs. I am sure somewhere out there in the ether of the internet, a psychological thesis will back me up.
There are a lot more options than u assume to be. (your logic doesnt apply to them all)
Yours: ppl always > Mac Mine: it depends on the situation and value of a mac in a balanced future.
sure 2 marines > 1 skulk ... sure player > ai ...
still in some situations sacrifice outweights other stuff. And depending on position and weapon i dont care if the other dude dies. Or i know the other marine is a aimless nap anyways... i know these skulks are naps and easy kills... im sure i can kill them both because i got the mega skillz... i know the other marine is out of ammo... i know xyz... so many possibilitys.
You cant say nobody will care about ai units ever in such situations.
*Of course there are 1000s of outcomes, the skulk could disconnect, the bot could randomly explode because of a bug and one marine could take off all his digital clothing and run around shouting 'AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!'.
But how are you to come to any conclusion if there are infinite possibilities? How are you to balance a game if you can't discover the simple fundamentals of a situation?
We might as well give up discussing the balance of the game right now!
The truth of the matter is (which you agreed with mind you) is that given a situation whereby the outcome is either:
1 person vs a skulk, or 2 people vs a skulk because you sacrifice the build bot (as the discussion was who you cared for more!?)
Therefore, the person is more important than a build bot. Both on statistical outcome, and sociological relationship (though I do not have the thesis to back that up).
This is completely logical! If you are arguing against it you might as well tell me that the world is flat, and that god did cross the road to get to the other side.
I am not going to add any more to this because I strongly disagree with everything you guys are stating, and is based on something other than trying to find the heart of the matter.
EDIT:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are a lot more options than u assume to be. (your logic doesnt apply to them all)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, of course. But if you want to know who you care for more you do not (as in science) create a repeatable experiment that is infinitely complicated. You create a scenario in its simplest possible form.
<!--quoteo(post=1810335:date=Nov 25 2010, 08:50 AM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Nov 25 2010, 08:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810335"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Instead MAC's and Drifter seem like they took a ton of gameplay away without actually compensating for it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This sums everything up perfectly. At least as it stands now, MACs and Drifters can still remain, they in themselves don't ruin anything, just the way it's handled.
It seems like in order to make the com more interesting and busy, they loaded a ton of new features and abilities for the commander, which pretty much watered down the actual marine/fps side. So in order to appease one player of the team, the entire rest of players have to suffer for it. I mean ESSENTIALLY as it stands now the only real addition for the marines who are fighting is now they get flame throwers, and have the fun luxury of escorting robots/sieges for the commander. While taking away the ability to build, sneak siege/TF, weld buildings, weld other players, communication, etc. Basically taking 1 step, only to take 4 steps back, I don't understand the reasoning behind it, for the sake of being different from NS1? Some of my all time favorite sequels are those that are essentially the first game with a few new added features and improved graphics/performance. Look at Mario 1 and Mario 3 (mario 2 wasn't originally a mario game) It only added and improved upon the basic concept of Mario while taking NOTHING away from the core values of what made Mario.. Mario and 3 is universally received as one of the best if not THE best Mario game, same with Super Mario World.
I guess in the end what I don't understand is why instead of only adding to the game, why are things being taken away? KEEP what was there and ADD to it, nothing, and I mean nothing was wrong with the original format, all it really needs is to be bigger now.. expanded.
But who knows, like others have said including myself, the final version ain't out yet so we really don't know how THAT will end up being. But what we do know is what we have now and what we have now makes up for over 50% of the entirety of the game, so I don't see a huge change coming anytime soon and pretty sure we got a firm and realistic grasp of what the end game will be.. I mean this is BETA after all.
<!--quoteo(post=1810383:date=Nov 25 2010, 11:47 AM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Nov 25 2010, 11:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810383"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro--> I'm not against build bots, but they put more work on the commander (more time spent building, repairing, power nodes, etc) and the marines no longer have 'goals', such as hold a position and defend a guy whilst his team mate builds. You do not 'feel' as much for the build bots.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
You dont feel as much atm because numbers are still wrong. Its not a big deal to lose a mac atm, but it should/will be. You will start to feel for them, after your teams economy gets down because of this, lots destroyed powernodes, structures etc... commanders are yelling like crazy at you to protect the macs droping buildings/repair nodes... and if all fails, and the maconly managed to drop a structure... you still have option the build the stuff yourself. Or because of the small maps and fast aliens.. you need to assist building important structures, to get them up in time for the next wave of aliens... I had a lot of this situations as comm already. <!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->
[In NS1 there was a clear relationship between building and surviving, because aliens always targeted squad members who were buidling]<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Now they target the mac first or dance around it using it as a bullet shield... and kill u while reloading...
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->Now things are more divided and both commander and marines can pretty much do whatever they like and they do no effect each other, only in that by the commander building stuff you get more weapons/upgrades. But he is not 'commanding' in the definition of the word. There is a more divided relationship because your goals are just 'run around and kill stuff'.
It effects communication with players, supply, removes the commander as a possible adviser (maybe he can see more/has powers to know more and can advise squads).<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Some important stuff is still missing so its impossible to manage squads atm... you dont know if or who wants a medpack/ammo (no audio alert, you cant see hp bars of your marines, droping medpacks on players deselect the comstation and selects the player etc.) You dont know which marines is in which squad, if grouping works, how many squad hotgroups you have... or if they work. You dont know atm if waypoints are working for ppl, you dont get feedback if ppl arrive there, you dont know if a waypoint is bugged for the marines - so it doesnt go away and stays there for the whole match. you dont know if a marines needs orders (alert doesnt work for the comm) and if, you dont know which marine said it and where. Mac still got issues with ghostbuilding multtiple structures... macs dont autorepair, u dont see structure hp without select and deselecting every crappy building... You cant research multible things on a structure (hold in the line - so it upgrades one stuff after another and you dont have to visit this building every few secs) =>you have to klick every building every few sec to see if a research is ready... etc ITS VERY HARD TO BE COMM ATM... SO MUCH MISSING - OFC THERE IS NO TIME TO COMMAND MARINES. (its no yelling, just highlighting) Ofc rambo solo rines affect coms gameplay... you cant expand, just turtle and lose if your rines dont work togehter or push the right way... if res is tweaked i dont think with whip bombards gorge bacteria etc turtling will be an effective tactic anymore.
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro--> I do not think the answer is to revert to NS1, but make building and repairing more stream lined so that it takes up less time and that time can be sent on the front line, advising and helping players. Also players need short term rewards for small tasks (holding a position, defending a mac, etc)...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> A lot stuff is still missing as i already said 1231 times... you dont know if we need changes before you even know what features there really are. <!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro--> So many time as commander I am building in an area, and I am so busy doing that and not having any control over players, that they run into the next room after aliens, all die and then the room I was building in gets chomped. They just do not obey commands when I am selecting a group of them and clicking on the ground behind them, because there is no reward or punishment if they do/do not.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> I guess i already answered this, its hard atm i know... i always play com on both sides. <!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro--> Players do not see the long term implications, only short term. That is why people run around gunning, because it is fun and adrenaline inducing. What they do not realise is that losing a room in the big picture is worse than they realise. Because implications are long term, i.e. the eventual loss of the game.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc--> Its a beta, overwhelmed comms/ ppl that know nothing about this game - missing features...this will get better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As much as I love NS1 and still consider it the greatest online game ever and the pinnacle of online gaming to date (regardless of what others on this board apparently think) if this game turns into one giant escort mission, which is hands down my MOST HATED aspect in ANY video game period, I will refuse to play NS2 which is a shame because I've waited many.. many years for this game. The last thing I ever want to do is go online to protect some AI robots to do the work for ME and my marines, when we USE to be able to do it ourselves. I seriously don't understand from any perspective how marines all of a sudden become moronic imbeciles that can't weld or build for themselves all of a sudden.. did they evolve or devolve because from this point of view it certainly appears like a massive step back.
I'll love to come back on here a year later and hear you cry about how much you hate your MAC's constantly getting destroyed because aliens are targeting them, leaving marines helpless like little babies who can't do a single thing for themselves outside shooting a gun.
Maybe you enjoy that disconnected, AI ran/essential type of game play but I am the type of person that enjoys doing AS MUCH as possible by myself and team, without computer assistance, one of the reasons I hate MMO games, to little human control, considering the computer does MOST the battling for you. I want as much control over my character, game and team as possible, which NS1 nearly perfected, and a few steps forward would have been perfected.
<!--quoteo(post=1810403:date=Nov 25 2010, 12:46 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Nov 25 2010, 12:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810403"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a skulk is biting your friend, and another a build bot... you will shoot the one biting your friend first. I guarantee that, as he is paramount to your survival more than the bot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Was... you mean, based on this new game play, without MAC's Marines are literally helpless.
AsranielJoin Date: 2002-06-03Member: 724Members, Playtest Lead, Forum Moderators, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Shadow, Subnautica Playtester, Retired Community Developer
you know that you can still build? with the use key. The build bot is essentially only used to make the initial building placement. and perhaps that will change over time? who knows. At least i think it is really not something to worry about currently.
<!--quoteo(post=1810108:date=Nov 24 2010, 09:28 PM:name=Plasma)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Plasma @ Nov 24 2010, 09:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810108"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the new commander system is cool; but I think its important to let individual players feel useful.
I'd rather play a supporting role at times instead of just trying to attack the other team (my only option, beside being a commander).
Regardless of the explanation; my feelings playing the game make me think this way - I agree that I haven't gone gorge once since I first tried him out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is actually a really good summary of how I feel about the Gorge. o.o
Comments
you guys are crazy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wrong
It has been one of NS1 features that set it apart from the dozens of other FPS MP mods for HL1, if people would have "hated it" then nobody would have build the base at round start. The truth is plenty of people stayed to build even when 1 would have been enough. Heck it had been one of the reasons why i even gave NS a try in the first place when a friend told me "you build your base on the map wherever you want!". I clearly remember the first time i spawned into a NS game... from an IP in an totaly crazy reloc and everything looked totaly chaotic but i liked it exactly because of that.
The simplest reason for not migrating too many actions to the MAC/Drifter is because of gameplay diversity, it doesn't matter if it's just "holding down E". It gave people options, somebody who sucks at killing stuff could allways help the team as base monkey or on welder duty for the HA train. This is mostly gone now, i would like to go into more detail right now but i'm at work so don't have much time.
Sure NS2 wants to be simplyfied, the question is if we really want to simplify NS so much that it no more resembles what made NS unique in the first place?
Because that's the fine line we have to watch out for...
If they got removed, you'd be upset.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did not say they should be removed. I like ocs and sentries. In NS1 they were not importent. You could built them but mostly they were a waist of res.
In NS2 it seems that this "bots" become very importat by the way the gorge is now and the fact that you no longer need a tf leeds to strategys where spamming sentries might be a good choice.
This is what i dont't like.
I experienced oc spam so often in small games in the past, when ns1 no longer was played much. I really don't want to see it as major destiny of the gorge.
You cant build stuff? wrong - you still can... comm doesnt need to send you a mac
The one time every skulk went gorge to build a single rt in a game?(wow, that tactic needed an iq of 175 for sure) Leaving the rest to 1 gorge, that was building stuff in 1st person instead of commander view...
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->
- Marine feels less connected to commander (building structures were essentially way points/goals)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Even more important than to just stand there and press "E" is to guard this keyarea or rt, and make it stay alive...(macs are dead in 2hits, powernodes can be destroyed from the start of a match) thats the essential waypoint/goal.
You cant just place and forget stuff in ns2... you need the powernodes and buildings to stay online. The mac is just like a visible mousecursor from the comm. In ns1 you watched the back of player xy - in ns2 you and xy watch the back of a mac/or do it like in ns1 - commanders decision.
Energy is a slow regen + caped res, macs are expensive an very vulnerable... you cant afford to not protect them, because without macs - you cant repair powernodes and structures for a long time. => killing your economy. (if the numbers are adjusted in the future)
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->- Marine feels that he has no purpose (no goals except kill stuff)<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Get more RT, gain more areas on the map, get Techpoints,protect your builders, get portable powernodes into key position etc - i dont see the any change in duty.. - killing was always the way how you archived stuff.
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->
- Roles have become more divided<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
why?
No matter how you do it, you do it wrong... in ns1 most ppl hated to build stuff...,so its taken away in ns2... you take it away and suddently all ppl want is to build stuff again...
you guys are crazy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not against build bots, but they put more work on the commander (more time spent building, repairing, power nodes, etc) and the marines no longer have 'goals', such as hold a position and defend a guy whilst his team mate builds. You do not 'feel' as much for the build bots.
[In NS1 there was a clear relationship between building and surviving, because aliens always targeted squad members who were buidling]
Now things are more divided and both commander and marines can pretty much do whatever they like and they do no effect each other, only in that by the commander building stuff you get more weapons/upgrades. But he is not 'commanding' in the definition of the word. There is a more divided relationship because your goals are just 'run around and kill stuff'.
It effects communication with players, supply, removes the commander as a possible adviser (maybe he can see more/has powers to know more and can advise squads).
I do not think the answer is to revert to NS1, but make building and repairing more stream lined so that it takes up less time and that time can be sent on the front line, advising and helping players. Also players need short term rewards for small tasks (holding a position, defending a mac, etc)...
So many time as commander I am building in an area, and I am so busy doing that and not having any control over players, that they run into the next room after aliens, all die and then the room I was building in gets chomped. They just do not obey commands when I am selecting a group of them and clicking on the ground behind them, because there is no reward or punishment if they do/do not.
Players do not see the long term implications, only short term. That is why people run around gunning, because it is fun and adrenaline inducing. What they do not realise is that losing a room in the big picture is worse than they realise. Because implications are long term, i.e. the eventual loss of the game.
cheers gimpy<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, I guess NS1 fans are screwed if they are expecting NS2 to be NS1.
NS2 is NOT the same game as NS1. How many times does this need to be repeated? Believe it or not, NS1 was not perfect. It was not the pinnacle of PC gaming. What this means is that NS2 has the potential to be just as good as NS1, only in different ways.
Telling us that NS2 won't be any good because it doesn't have X or Y feature from NS1 is just idiotic. That's like saying Starcraft 2 isn't any good because marines can't build stuctures or because there's an alien (Zerg) commander. Yes, NS1 and Starcraft 2 are different games. So are NS1 and NS2. By the same token, I could say NS1 isn't any good because it doesn't have power nodes, or dynamic infestation, or a unified resource model. I bet if NS1 was originally released with all the features of NS2, and NS2 was being developed with all the features of NS1, you'd have the exact same people in an outcry.
<!--quoteo(post=1810355:date=Nov 25 2010, 11:01 AM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Nov 25 2010, 11:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810355"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sure NS2 wants to be simplyfied, the question is if we really want to simplify NS so much that it no more resembles what made NS unique in the first place?
Because that's the fine line we have to watch out for...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What made NS unique was a successful blend of RTS and FPS elements with two asymmetrical teams. NS2 can accomplish this without being the same as NS1. NS2 can accomplish this while still having MACs and Drifters and Alien Commanders. Think about what's actually being simplified (and I mean THINK), and think about what new things NS2 has to offer. I think the two balance each other out quite well. For every thing that is being "removed", something new takes its place.
As i say it all the time too, ppl dont really THINK... and after so many posts - i guess they dont read either.
I seriously doubt it's as simple as that, "oh it combined this and that and because of it it's been successfull". Something working is the end result of serveral mechanics working together the way they do, the successful blend worked well because of the way it has been achieved and not just because it simply "worked". Everything is the end result of the sum of it's parts, same applies to games. Counter Strike isn't successfull just because it's Counter Strike, it's successfull because of the (back then) new game mechanics, balance and gameplay working in a unique way together and not just because somebody put all these things somehow together.
Right now i don't see to many new things except an AI bot flying around doing things that real players used to do, that's it.
Sure there is more to come, DI, portable powerpoints jada jada but these things are not in right now so i'm sharing my view of the current situation that's the only viable way to share a view.
Of course i could imagine UWE adding 1 billion awesome things they COULD add that COULD change something but that isn't the point. The point is thinking/talking about the situation right now. And right now to me it feels like alot of gameplay diversity has gone missing on the grunt level of gameplay.
<!--quoteo(post=1810372:date=Nov 25 2010, 05:14 PM:name=Koruyo)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Koruyo @ Nov 25 2010, 05:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810372"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->oh boy... donner, you speak out of my soul.
As i say it all the time too, ppl dont really THINK... and after so many posts - i guess they dont read either.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's not how a discussion works... you can't claim the absolute truth for you by just claiming everybody except for you doesn't think.
You tell me:
- If the commander has squad controls for players
- If the supply method requires dropping ammo/health
Why are these so clumsy and rarely used?
Surely the commander should be at the front, talking on the mic, advising players... being able to supply ammo and health at the right times. At the moment this is rarely possible, because you are expected to do everything to the same degree.
Therefore you spend too much time doing everything not that well, rather than doing certain jobs very well.
There should be 'much' more interaction with players! Commanders should be talking down the mics, telling people what to do, telling them to hold a room whilst he builds and players should be rewarded for that.
If you think a 'build bot floating around' is a good relationship between comm and players in a 'ON-LINE GAME' with the potential to be much much more... I am saddened that you do not see more potential.
The commander to players should feel like he is on your shoulder, protecting your interests - like he is another player in your squad but better. Not just a bot floating around building a structure every now and then, and not quite being able to drop health before you die.
Do you at the moment know what intentions the commander ever has? Because I don't. Where is he going to build? Is he going to push to a certain area or just build slowly out from the base?
Every game will just play out the same.
I'm not against build bots, but they put more work on the commander (more time spent building, repairing, power nodes, etc) and the marines no longer have 'goals', such as hold a position and defend a guy whilst his team mate builds. You do not 'feel' as much for the build bots.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
You dont feel as much atm because numbers are still wrong. Its not a big deal to lose a mac atm, but it should/will be. You will start to feel for them, after your teams economy gets down because of this, lots destroyed powernodes, structures etc... commanders are yelling like crazy at you to protect the macs droping buildings/repair nodes... and if all fails, and the maconly managed to drop a structure... you still have option the build the stuff yourself. Or because of the small maps and fast aliens.. you need to assist building important structures, to get them up in time for the next wave of aliens... I had a lot of this situations as comm already.
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->
[In NS1 there was a clear relationship between building and surviving, because aliens always targeted squad members who were buidling]<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Now they target the mac first or dance around it using it as a bullet shield... and kill u while reloading...
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->Now things are more divided and both commander and marines can pretty much do whatever they like and they do no effect each other, only in that by the commander building stuff you get more weapons/upgrades. But he is not 'commanding' in the definition of the word. There is a more divided relationship because your goals are just 'run around and kill stuff'.
It effects communication with players, supply, removes the commander as a possible adviser (maybe he can see more/has powers to know more and can advise squads).<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Some important stuff is still missing so its impossible to manage squads atm... you dont know if or who wants a medpack/ammo (no audio alert, you cant see hp bars of your marines, droping medpacks on players deselect the comstation and selects the player etc.) You dont know which marines is in which squad, if grouping works, how many squad hotgroups you have... or if they work. You dont know atm if waypoints are working for ppl, you dont get feedback if ppl arrive there, you dont know if a waypoint is bugged for the marines - so it doesnt go away and stays there for the whole match. you dont know if a marines needs orders (alert doesnt work for the comm) and if, you dont know which marine said it and where. Mac still got issues with ghostbuilding multtiple structures... macs dont autorepair, u dont see structure hp without select and deselecting every crappy building... You cant research multible things on a structure (hold in the line - so it upgrades one stuff after another and you dont have to visit this building every few secs) =>you have to klick every building every few sec to see if a research is ready... etc ITS VERY HARD TO BE COMM ATM... SO MUCH MISSING - OFC THERE IS NO TIME TO COMMAND MARINES. (its no yelling, just highlighting)
Ofc rambo solo rines affect coms gameplay... you cant expand, just turtle and lose if your rines dont work togehter or push the right way... if res is tweaked i dont think with whip bombards gorge bacteria etc turtling will be an effective tactic anymore.
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->
I do not think the answer is to revert to NS1, but make building and repairing more stream lined so that it takes up less time and that time can be sent on the front line, advising and helping players. Also players need short term rewards for small tasks (holding a position, defending a mac, etc)...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
A lot stuff is still missing as i already said 1231 times... you dont know if we need changes before you even know what features there really are.
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->
So many time as commander I am building in an area, and I am so busy doing that and not having any control over players, that they run into the next room after aliens, all die and then the room I was building in gets chomped. They just do not obey commands when I am selecting a group of them and clicking on the ground behind them, because there is no reward or punishment if they do/do not.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I guess i already answered this, its hard atm i know... i always play com on both sides.
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->
Players do not see the long term implications, only short term. That is why people run around gunning, because it is fun and adrenaline inducing. What they do not realise is that losing a room in the big picture is worse than they realise. Because implications are long term, i.e. the eventual loss of the game.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Its a beta, overwhelmed comms/ ppl that know nothing about this game - missing features...this will get better.
But ppl can do it the other way around, and demand a change to the old ns1 system without even knowing the complete package? I dont think so sir.
And no, i dont think nobody here is able to think. Its just, some people are repeating the same stuff over and over again without joining the conversation... i dont think it helps if i 'd just write "QQ ns2 - Ns1 is the one true god" every 5min.
The issue is, while you have stated 'this will change'... how do you know it will for a fact? We all know there is more to add, but how much and what is being changed?
Steam lining the UI does not mean they will change the way things happen necessarily...
Or we just wait until they say this is how they wanted it, and if we dont like it - we can still complain and demand a change. We cant know how what will be changed or how what will be added... until they tell us it is final, there isnt much to do
But as ns1 didnt start with version 3.x ns2 wont start compleatly balanced and worked out... this are games that will change over time, some times only a bit, sometimes radical.
UWE wont just release it and stop working on it.
edit: its actually sad that some of us dont have enough trust in uwe. - i mean they did an good job with ns1... dont u think?
I donno why that would be, bots cost money, players are free. I feel much more inclined to save the one person that can build as opposed to in NS1 where anyone could build, and if they died I took their place.
If the mac is between me and my squadmember id shoot the skulk on the mac fist - because this skulk closer to me and i cant know if he stays on the mac..
Two situations (there are more) would occur:
1. Your friend dies, then it is you vs a skulk.
2. The bot dies, then it is you and your mate vs a skulk.
If you go for the bot first you are defying logic. Not only that, but your relationship with other players is a lot stronger than with NPCs, even if this is something you are not concious of when you are playing. A bot can not fight (to the standard you can) either.
Assumed this happens like you said, ofc i do it like u said.
But it still depends. if the mac is building something important like an ip/ops with distress beacon(ppl respawn next to the ops)/ a sentry/command station etc...- or i know reinforcements are around the corner - i would try to sacrfice my life to buy the mac some more time finishing the construction. Maps arent as big as in ns1... usually ppl are coming fast.
edit: if i know the life of a mac is a hughe impact on economy/whatever... i would try to kill the skulk on the mac - and shout in teamspeak the commander should run a way with this mac.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Assumed this happens like you said, chances are very high that i do it like u said.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which means you value a fellow player more than the build bot, ergo, what I said was the truth. You are being pedantic for the sake of being right. You are cooking up stupid situations.
You might as well say:
If I was fighting a skulk attacking a bot, and there was a marine being attacked across the other side of the map. I would shoot the one attacking the bot.
needless to say, tldr..
check out my gorge idea:
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=111628" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=111628</a>
I see.
It was nothing to do with me being right, it has everything to do with having a proper discussion on here. Not just forcing views on people because you want to be right.
I will gladly admit when I am wrong, because if you can admit you learn to always find the truth of a situation. That truth is 'what is best for NS2?'. Not 'this is really cool, I really liked it, i want, i want, i want'...
But what I stated was essentially 1 + 1 = 2, it is logical, it is the truth. Given a set situation like I stated you would make that decision, and would be wrong to otherwise. It does not contain possibilities of 'there is a building in the way'. It boils the situation down to a simple form to find a truth.
2 people vs a skulk
1 Person vs a skulk
Mathematically and statistically 2 is better than 1. Ie, the build bot is not as valuable as a person.
Also you have to factor in player to player relationships on servers, which will always be strong relationships than with NPCs. I am sure somewhere out there in the ether of the internet, a psychological thesis will back me up.
There are a lot more options than u assume to be. (your logic doesnt apply to them all)
Yours: ppl always > Mac
Mine: it depends on the situation and value of a mac in a balanced future.
sure 2 marines > 1 skulk ...
sure player > ai ...
still in some situations sacrifice outweights other stuff. And depending on position and weapon i dont care if the other dude dies.
Or i know the other marine is a aimless nap anyways... i know these skulks are naps and easy kills... im sure i can kill them both because i got the mega skillz... i know the other marine is out of ammo... i know xyz... so many possibilitys.
You cant say nobody will care about ai units ever in such situations.
But how are you to come to any conclusion if there are infinite possibilities? How are you to balance a game if you can't discover the simple fundamentals of a situation?
We might as well give up discussing the balance of the game right now!
The truth of the matter is (which you agreed with mind you) is that given a situation whereby the outcome is either:
1 person vs a skulk, or 2 people vs a skulk because you sacrifice the build bot (as the discussion was who you cared for more!?)
Therefore, the person is more important than a build bot. Both on statistical outcome, and sociological relationship (though I do not have the thesis to back that up).
This is completely logical! If you are arguing against it you might as well tell me that the world is flat, and that god did cross the road to get to the other side.
I am not going to add any more to this because I strongly disagree with everything you guys are stating, and is based on something other than trying to find the heart of the matter.
EDIT:
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There are a lot more options than u assume to be. (your logic doesnt apply to them all)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, of course. But if you want to know who you care for more you do not (as in science) create a repeatable experiment that is infinitely complicated. You create a scenario in its simplest possible form.
Because, see*
This sums everything up perfectly. At least as it stands now, MACs and Drifters can still remain, they in themselves don't ruin anything, just the way it's handled.
It seems like in order to make the com more interesting and busy, they loaded a ton of new features and abilities for the commander, which pretty much watered down the actual marine/fps side. So in order to appease one player of the team, the entire rest of players have to suffer for it. I mean ESSENTIALLY as it stands now the only real addition for the marines who are fighting is now they get flame throwers, and have the fun luxury of escorting robots/sieges for the commander. While taking away the ability to build, sneak siege/TF, weld buildings, weld other players, communication, etc. Basically taking 1 step, only to take 4 steps back, I don't understand the reasoning behind it, for the sake of being different from NS1? Some of my all time favorite sequels are those that are essentially the first game with a few new added features and improved graphics/performance. Look at Mario 1 and Mario 3 (mario 2 wasn't originally a mario game) It only added and improved upon the basic concept of Mario while taking NOTHING away from the core values of what made Mario.. Mario and 3 is universally received as one of the best if not THE best Mario game, same with Super Mario World.
I guess in the end what I don't understand is why instead of only adding to the game, why are things being taken away? KEEP what was there and ADD to it, nothing, and I mean nothing was wrong with the original format, all it really needs is to be bigger now.. expanded.
But who knows, like others have said including myself, the final version ain't out yet so we really don't know how THAT will end up being. But what we do know is what we have now and what we have now makes up for over 50% of the entirety of the game, so I don't see a huge change coming anytime soon and pretty sure we got a firm and realistic grasp of what the end game will be.. I mean this is BETA after all.
I'm not against build bots, but they put more work on the commander (more time spent building, repairing, power nodes, etc) and the marines no longer have 'goals', such as hold a position and defend a guy whilst his team mate builds. You do not 'feel' as much for the build bots.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
You dont feel as much atm because numbers are still wrong. Its not a big deal to lose a mac atm, but it should/will be. You will start to feel for them, after your teams economy gets down because of this, lots destroyed powernodes, structures etc... commanders are yelling like crazy at you to protect the macs droping buildings/repair nodes... and if all fails, and the maconly managed to drop a structure... you still have option the build the stuff yourself. Or because of the small maps and fast aliens.. you need to assist building important structures, to get them up in time for the next wave of aliens... I had a lot of this situations as comm already.
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->
[In NS1 there was a clear relationship between building and surviving, because aliens always targeted squad members who were buidling]<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Now they target the mac first or dance around it using it as a bullet shield... and kill u while reloading...
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->Now things are more divided and both commander and marines can pretty much do whatever they like and they do no effect each other, only in that by the commander building stuff you get more weapons/upgrades. But he is not 'commanding' in the definition of the word. There is a more divided relationship because your goals are just 'run around and kill stuff'.
It effects communication with players, supply, removes the commander as a possible adviser (maybe he can see more/has powers to know more and can advise squads).<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Some important stuff is still missing so its impossible to manage squads atm... you dont know if or who wants a medpack/ammo (no audio alert, you cant see hp bars of your marines, droping medpacks on players deselect the comstation and selects the player etc.) You dont know which marines is in which squad, if grouping works, how many squad hotgroups you have... or if they work. You dont know atm if waypoints are working for ppl, you dont get feedback if ppl arrive there, you dont know if a waypoint is bugged for the marines - so it doesnt go away and stays there for the whole match. you dont know if a marines needs orders (alert doesnt work for the comm) and if, you dont know which marine said it and where. Mac still got issues with ghostbuilding multtiple structures... macs dont autorepair, u dont see structure hp without select and deselecting every crappy building... You cant research multible things on a structure (hold in the line - so it upgrades one stuff after another and you dont have to visit this building every few secs) =>you have to klick every building every few sec to see if a research is ready... etc ITS VERY HARD TO BE COMM ATM... SO MUCH MISSING - OFC THERE IS NO TIME TO COMMAND MARINES. (its no yelling, just highlighting)
Ofc rambo solo rines affect coms gameplay... you cant expand, just turtle and lose if your rines dont work togehter or push the right way... if res is tweaked i dont think with whip bombards gorge bacteria etc turtling will be an effective tactic anymore.
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->
I do not think the answer is to revert to NS1, but make building and repairing more stream lined so that it takes up less time and that time can be sent on the front line, advising and helping players. Also players need short term rewards for small tasks (holding a position, defending a mac, etc)...<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
A lot stuff is still missing as i already said 1231 times... you dont know if we need changes before you even know what features there really are.
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->
So many time as commander I am building in an area, and I am so busy doing that and not having any control over players, that they run into the next room after aliens, all die and then the room I was building in gets chomped. They just do not obey commands when I am selecting a group of them and clicking on the ground behind them, because there is no reward or punishment if they do/do not.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I guess i already answered this, its hard atm i know... i always play com on both sides.
<!--coloro:#F4A460--><span style="color:#F4A460"><!--/coloro-->
Players do not see the long term implications, only short term. That is why people run around gunning, because it is fun and adrenaline inducing. What they do not realise is that losing a room in the big picture is worse than they realise. Because implications are long term, i.e. the eventual loss of the game.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Its a beta, overwhelmed comms/ ppl that know nothing about this game - missing features...this will get better.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As much as I love NS1 and still consider it the greatest online game ever and the pinnacle of online gaming to date (regardless of what others on this board apparently think) if this game turns into one giant escort mission, which is hands down my MOST HATED aspect in ANY video game period, I will refuse to play NS2 which is a shame because I've waited many.. many years for this game. The last thing I ever want to do is go online to protect some AI robots to do the work for ME and my marines, when we USE to be able to do it ourselves. I seriously don't understand from any perspective how marines all of a sudden become moronic imbeciles that can't weld or build for themselves all of a sudden.. did they evolve or devolve because from this point of view it certainly appears like a massive step back.
I'll love to come back on here a year later and hear you cry about how much you hate your MAC's constantly getting destroyed because aliens are targeting them, leaving marines helpless like little babies who can't do a single thing for themselves outside shooting a gun.
Maybe you enjoy that disconnected, AI ran/essential type of game play but I am the type of person that enjoys doing AS MUCH as possible by myself and team, without computer assistance, one of the reasons I hate MMO games, to little human control, considering the computer does MOST the battling for you. I want as much control over my character, game and team as possible, which NS1 nearly perfected, and a few steps forward would have been perfected.
<!--quoteo(post=1810403:date=Nov 25 2010, 12:46 PM:name=Runteh)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Runteh @ Nov 25 2010, 12:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1810403"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a skulk is biting your friend, and another a build bot... you will shoot the one biting your friend first. I guarantee that, as he is paramount to your survival more than the bot.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Was... you mean, based on this new game play, without MAC's Marines are literally helpless.
I'd rather play a supporting role at times instead of just trying to attack the other team (my only option, beside being a commander).
Regardless of the explanation; my feelings playing the game make me think this way - I agree that I haven't gone gorge once since I first tried him out.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is actually a really good summary of how I feel about the Gorge. o.o