<!--quoteo(post=1765687:date=Apr 11 2010, 01:26 AM:name=Phase)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Phase @ Apr 11 2010, 01:26 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1765687"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You'll notice that games without jumping soon fail. Even if they have climbing abilities. Look at WoW, it doesn't even need the jump feature in the game but it has it and is used to the extreme. It adds just the right touch of realism into games that make them enjoyable :)<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Anything but true. Goldeneye was a revolutionary game, no jumping. same as it's cousin Perfect Dark. The Brothers in Arms games (the first two anyway) were incredible ww2 games with no jumping. As for WoW, jumping is mandatory for pvp.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
this will only introduce the crappy alien movement that is in Aliens Vs Predator 3 (oh no I'm not close enuf to the wall for the engine to detect I want to wall walk...)
Freedom of movement far outweighs realism... Something like that should never be handed over to the engine scripts to decided if you meet all the requirements to do a specific movement...
For me, the closest I've been to perfect in terms of movement feel is NS1. I loved how you build up your movement skills through playing. At some point i made a jab at trying to learn to bunnyjump and nailed it after a weeks time. And holy ######, it was awesome - it felt like I unlocked a new perk in MW2, except it was not some virtual item, but a "real" skill that I could refine and use to discover new strategies. Or in other words, it made the game more "First Person" for me.
If UW choose to go another route, I at least cross my fingers for a "classic" gamemode/mod :)
Jumping offer much more versatility in movements, dodging, and general gameplay. Although I have to agree that the jumping in the test engine is pretty bad, it's way too smooth and it stops if you release the movement key. Make it like in NS1 <3.
I feel like OP is trolling based on how big of a role jumping has played in NS1. Bunny hopping is imperative as a marine, and skulks that cannot bhop get slaughtered instantly. Lerks use the "jump" key to fly and onos cant get over small objects on the floor without jumping. Even bhopping while blinking as a fade is useful as it saves on adrenaline. Pretty much every class in the game utilizes it. Currently the jump ability in the engine test IMO has broken mechanics, but I'm sure UWE will fix it.
Also for the people who are saying that jumping isn't realistic, you guys need a reality check because I jump at least on a weekly basis. Granted it isn't because I'm some parkour enthusiast, but because it is a basic human ability.
The ideal movement mechanics for FPS games in IMO are those that you see in HL2 for humans, and what already exists in NS or L4D/2 for non-human movement.
Not trolling, just trying to see if you guys are stuck in your mind sets... which most of you are. Not a big deal i suppose.
The idea of a bunch of marines hopping around just makes me laugh... The thing that sparked this, I was playing BF:BC2 and noticed I had a bad habit of hopping when I knew some one was honing in on me at long range. Jumping at random just made it less likely for them to land a head shot, but I realized how silly it looked in the grand scheme of things.
But whatever, you haters can hate; that's what you do.
FYI you guys could try to be a bit nicer, not that it really matters; but a lot of you are jerks.
Kouji_SanSr. Hινε UÏкεεÏεг - EUPT DeputyThe NetherlandsJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16271Members, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited April 2010
Being stuck in a mind set has nothing to do with it!
Real life and "silly" game mechanics are two completely different things. Fact is, most real life stuff just doesn't work well in a game. As I said... Relying on the engine to choose what kind of movement you can do, is way to restricting and as an added problem, very environment dependent!
Don't try and fix something, just because it looks silly when it clearly has no valid or good alternative (as of yet). And freedom of movement is clearly needed as NS1 and most FPS games have already proven trough the years...
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--quoteo(post=1765974:date=Apr 11 2010, 05:01 PM:name=MiDri)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MiDri @ Apr 11 2010, 05:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1765974"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not trolling, just trying to see if you guys are stuck in your mind sets... which most of you are. Not a big deal i suppose.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you're serious, how about addressing the numerous valid points that were made in opposition to your suggestion? Your attempt to dismiss every opposing post with the same ridiculous accusation only serves to further the appearance that you are trolling. Plenty of people made serious responses.
<!--quoteo(post=1765669:date=Apr 10 2010, 11:40 PM:name=MiDri)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (MiDri @ Apr 10 2010, 11:40 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1765669"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So I've been playing around in the alpha engine demo and the levels really make me wonder why we need jumping? I sit and thought about it, and I understand why it used to exist... it was due to the limitations in allowing characters to move over objects. Now we could simply have a climbing animation for lunging over things. It just seems strange to me that we are jumping around... thoughts?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No. You are fighting an absurdly mobile melee military force. There are none of the factors that keep static tactical combat advantageous. It isn't the case that giving up your position with motion will result in immediate death from afar, it isn't the case where you are pinned constantly behind obstacles by enemy fire, it isn't the case. In NS you jumped over boxes, over railings, between gaps, to rush up ramps faster, to cut corner on catwalks, to throw the enemy off your position, or even just to simply get from a high up position to a lower down position in a more elegant way than falling uncontrollably.
NS needs jumping for the same reason left for dead needs jumping, the game would be stupid if you had no mobility when you tried to run away from incoming attackers, or if the mobility was arbitrarily limited in some way (you can only climb walls of a certain height)
That being said, the fact that NS1 played as a HIGHLY HIGHLY mobile and slightly archady fast paced shooter should be enough not to change the standard.
If a climbing animation were to be added, that would be fine, but not at the expense of losing jump. Jump is used for EVERYTHING in NS, NS2 would be WAY too different without it.
Removing jumping places a lot of hurdles and restrictions on mapmakers. It's probably more trouble than it's worth - if you want to remove its combat effectiveness you can just do something like what CS did. It is doable, but only if there's another button players can press to enhance their movement, like a sprint. Otherwise it's boring to just hold a direction and watch your character move, people like being able to jump just for fun.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--quoteo(post=1765983:date=Apr 11 2010, 05:17 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Apr 11 2010, 05:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1765983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This seems like as good a time as any to complain once more about bunnyhopping, how ****ing stupid it looks, how ****ing stupid it *IS*.
God forbid we think up something NEW that *everyone* has to learn that actually fits the context of the game...
But no, the dip**** whiner 'pr0' players demand that their games remain unchanging so they don't ever have to face a foreign concept themselves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I will preface this post by saying I have no illusion that any form of bunnyhopping is likely to remain on the marine side in NS2. However, let me explain why I enjoyed the ability on the marine side in NS.
Of course, marines cannot bunnyhop in NS (excepting rare cases). I am referring to the ability to gain some temporary speed through the method alternately known as circle-jumping, glidejumping, or strafejumping. In this post I will use the latter designation.
In the real world you are not restricted to moving at some constant speed. If you want to move faster, you can put in some additional effort and actually move faster. You'll also tire faster, of course.
Many games add a sprint key to simulate this. Hold it to run faster, at the cost of increasing some windedness measure. This addresses two of the above issues. It adds some method to run faster when you need to do so, but at the cost of tiring you. However, there is still one aspect missing. Holding a sprint key takes no extra effort on the player's part!
This is where strafejumping comes in. Through strafejumping you can gain some temporary extra speed, but it takes effort on the player's part to do so.
<!--quoteo(post=1765983:date=Apr 11 2010, 04:17 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Apr 11 2010, 04:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1765983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This seems like as good a time as any to complain once more about bunnyhopping, how ****ing stupid it looks, how ****ing stupid it *IS*.
God forbid we think up something NEW that *everyone* has to learn that actually fits the context of the game...
But no, the dip**** whiner 'pr0' players demand that their games remain unchanging so they don't ever have to face a foreign concept themselves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you talking about thinking up something new? Or removing something that works well already and replacing it with nothing?
Because it's unrealistic? Because it's hard to master?
Jump, in NS, in it's current form, makes gameplay better pretty much universally so. It adds wealths of freedom to your capabilities and makes the game much more entertaining. "I don't like it" is a really really really really terrible reason to remove it. "it's unrealistic" is equally terrible, and "it's difficult to master" is the reason why many games include features in the first place.
<!--quoteo(post=1765983:date=Apr 11 2010, 05:17 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Apr 11 2010, 05:17 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1765983"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This seems like as good a time as any to complain once more about bunnyhopping, how ****ing stupid it looks, how ****ing stupid it *IS*.
God forbid we think up something NEW that *everyone* has to learn that actually fits the context of the game...
But no, the dip**** whiner 'pr0' players demand that their games remain unchanging so they don't ever have to face a foreign concept themselves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pro players are good at games in general and will easily adapt to a new game. A players skill is built up year after year across many games and isn't dependent on a single feature within a specific game. For example, we're seeing a lot of high level Warcraft 3 players compete in SC2 at the same level as the old SC1 pros. Players who have a lot of talent aren't afraid of having to master a new concept.
I think most pro (or 'pr0' as you call them every time) players are afraid that movement skill in general will be removed and/or replaced with something that doesn't add as much depth to the game.
<!--quoteo(post=1766005:date=Apr 11 2010, 09:54 PM:name=a_civilian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (a_civilian @ Apr 11 2010, 09:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766005"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This is where strafejumping comes in. Through strafejumping you can gain some temporary extra speed, but it takes effort on the player's part to do so.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it's not. You and I both know how to run, it's in our genes. The 'average gamer' won't know how to do such a thing without being told how to learn it.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--quoteo(post=1766008:date=Apr 11 2010, 06:05 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Apr 11 2010, 06:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766008"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No it's not. You and I both know how to run, it's in our genes. The 'average gamer' won't know how to do such a thing without being told how to learn it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Is it in your genes to press W to run? To move the mouse left to look left?
You always have to learn a set of controls in order to play a game.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I thought most people agreed the crackhopping as a marine was broken and ridiculous.
Get rid of that ######, says I. Keep jump, by all means, but a marine shouldn't be able to leap around like they're gliding through the ###### matrix. One good jump for a quick dodge, not 22 dodges in a goddamn row.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, you'd be the only person I see raging about it 24/7. Everyone I've seen who can actually play the game seems to view it as a fundamental. I'm honestly flabbergasted that you can count yourself as an NS player yet loathe movement so deeply. What happened, were you touched by a bhopper as a child or something?
By the way, did you know that Skiing in Tribes was originally an exploit?
<!--quoteo(post=1766007:date=Apr 11 2010, 11:02 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Apr 11 2010, 11:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think most pro (or 'pr0' as you call them every time) players are afraid that movement skill in general will be removed and/or replaced with something that doesn't add as much depth to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. "HOLD SHIFT FOR SPEED" doesn't speak much about depth to me, other than very basic resource management.
<!--quoteo(post=1766006:date=Apr 11 2010, 05:58 PM:name=Swiftspear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Swiftspear @ Apr 11 2010, 05:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766006"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you talking about thinking up something new? Or removing something that works well already and replacing it with nothing?
Because it's unrealistic? Because it's hard to master?
Jump, in NS, in it's current form, makes gameplay better pretty much universally so. It adds wealths of freedom to your capabilities and makes the game much more entertaining. "I don't like it" is a really really really really terrible reason to remove it. "it's unrealistic" is equally terrible, and "it's difficult to master" is the reason why many games include features in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Some, including my self, would argue that jump, in most games, doesn't work well. It provides people with a silly/unrealistic way to get an edge over their opponent that you would never find in a sci/fi story ("Flinch saw a dog like alien running towards him so he began jumping up and down, firing his LMG in all directions!") or in real life combat situations.
As humans, jumping up and down over and over is not something we naturally do to avoid danger (Unless you're like trying to jump away from crocodiles or something, or you're a kangaroo). The natural instinct a human being has when faced with danger is to run in the opposite direction or to the closest safe place. So there's your "unrealistic/unnatural" explanation of bunnyhopping, it's tactically unsound. Sprinting and diving to some cover is a correct response to danger and something every soldier/police officer is taught to do in a dangerous situation. Which is why I feel that encouraging people to do so, in a video game, is the best course of action. I feel being tactical and addressing situations in life like manner is something that gives many people a sense of immersion when it comes to games and defeating an enemy while executing such tactics is extremely rewarding.
You never hear people complain whenever they get tactically out maneuvered by the enemy. You don't hear the "Ooo, you ###### flanker!" or "Ooo, look at the ###### utilizing cover!". Yet most people, in most games, will complain everytime when killed by a bunny hopper. What does that tell you about the nature of bunny hopping and the public opinion on it?
<!--quoteo(post=1766010:date=Apr 11 2010, 10:08 PM:name=a_civilian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (a_civilian @ Apr 11 2010, 10:08 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766010"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Is it in your genes to press W to run? To move the mouse left to look left?
You always have to learn a set of controls in order to play a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's obvious. It's mapped. The gamer has been told by the control set how to run.
I've never been told by a game in the settings options how to exploit movement code to jump faster, have you?
<!--quoteo(post=1766026:date=Apr 12 2010, 12:00 AM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Apr 12 2010, 12:00 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766026"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and secondly, they all draw on the same basic set of skills. Mouse aiming in Counter-Strike is the same as mouse aiming in any other FPS game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't true at all. In fact, it's approaching FocusedWolf levels of stupid. Different subgenres of shooters, different games within a subgenre, and different weapons within an individual game can all require radically different types of aim. Hell, even little things like how fast your character moves can be enough to change how you aim with the the same weapon. Someone who has excellent twitch aim with the AWP will not necessarily be able to control recoil with an M4 in the same game, do any sort of prediction or juggling with a rocket launcher in TF2, track targets with an LMG/HMG in NS, land close-range shots with a Flak Cannon in UT, or even do something very similar like land a flick rail in Quake simply because they're not used to shooting while both they and their target are moving.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--quoteo(post=1766036:date=Apr 11 2010, 07:14 PM:name=Thaldarin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Thaldarin @ Apr 11 2010, 07:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's obvious. It's mapped. The gamer has been told by the control set how to run.
I've never been told by a game in the settings options how to exploit movement code to jump faster, have you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We continued this line of discussion on IRC, but just to provide closure in this thread:
If you're arguing that the game shouldn't have actions that aren't explicitly bindable, then there are numerous counterexamples to that; the only difference is that the counterexamples are generally intuitive. So you're probably arguing that the game shouldn't have actions that require nonintuitive command sequences to activate, and to that I generally agree - that is the main problem with strafejumping/bunnyhopping.
That doesn't invalidate my original point, though. I was pointing out a positive aspect of marine strafejumping, not denying that it has negative aspects (of which nonintuitiveness is one).
i dont know why people hate movement that has depth. im not talking about quake levels of depth here (huge ql player here) but being able to improve your movement thorugh practice and playtime is important. its not a pro thing, its just that as a game without any rpg elements or unlockables you've got to have something to work for. ive played 3 days of quake live online just to get the idea of the mvoement because improvement is fun.
while you guys are debating about whether to cripple marines or not (hint: they should be able to jump) im going to go back to a real mans game: warsow instagib :cool:
Comments
Anything but true. Goldeneye was a revolutionary game, no jumping. same as it's cousin Perfect Dark. The Brothers in Arms games (the first two anyway) were incredible ww2 games with no jumping. As for WoW, jumping is mandatory for pvp.
Freedom of movement far outweighs realism... Something like that should never be handed over to the engine scripts to decided if you meet all the requirements to do a specific movement...
If UW choose to go another route, I at least cross my fingers for a "classic" gamemode/mod :)
Also for the people who are saying that jumping isn't realistic, you guys need a reality check because I jump at least on a weekly basis. Granted it isn't because I'm some parkour enthusiast, but because it is a basic human ability.
The ideal movement mechanics for FPS games in IMO are those that you see in HL2 for humans, and what already exists in NS or L4D/2 for non-human movement.
even the lack of jump in guildwars, a top-down rpg, drope me nuts.
The idea of a bunch of marines hopping around just makes me laugh... The thing that sparked this, I was playing BF:BC2 and noticed I had a bad habit of hopping when I knew some one was honing in on me at long range. Jumping at random just made it less likely for them to land a head shot, but I realized how silly it looked in the grand scheme of things.
But whatever, you haters can hate; that's what you do.
FYI you guys could try to be a bit nicer, not that it really matters; but a lot of you are jerks.
Real life and "silly" game mechanics are two completely different things. Fact is, most real life stuff just doesn't work well in a game. As I said... Relying on the engine to choose what kind of movement you can do, is way to restricting and as an added problem, very environment dependent!
Don't try and fix something, just because it looks silly when it clearly has no valid or good alternative (as of yet). And freedom of movement is clearly needed as NS1 and most FPS games have already proven trough the years...
God forbid we think up something NEW that *everyone* has to learn that actually fits the context of the game...
But no, the dip**** whiner 'pr0' players demand that their games remain unchanging so they don't ever have to face a foreign concept themselves.
If you're serious, how about addressing the numerous valid points that were made in opposition to your suggestion? Your attempt to dismiss every opposing post with the same ridiculous accusation only serves to further the appearance that you are trolling. Plenty of people made serious responses.
Yeah but...
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No. You are fighting an absurdly mobile melee military force. There are none of the factors that keep static tactical combat advantageous. It isn't the case that giving up your position with motion will result in immediate death from afar, it isn't the case where you are pinned constantly behind obstacles by enemy fire, it isn't the case. In NS you jumped over boxes, over railings, between gaps, to rush up ramps faster, to cut corner on catwalks, to throw the enemy off your position, or even just to simply get from a high up position to a lower down position in a more elegant way than falling uncontrollably.
NS needs jumping for the same reason left for dead needs jumping, the game would be stupid if you had no mobility when you tried to run away from incoming attackers, or if the mobility was arbitrarily limited in some way (you can only climb walls of a certain height)
That being said, the fact that NS1 played as a HIGHLY HIGHLY mobile and slightly archady fast paced shooter should be enough not to change the standard.
If a climbing animation were to be added, that would be fine, but not at the expense of losing jump. Jump is used for EVERYTHING in NS, NS2 would be WAY too different without it.
God forbid we think up something NEW that *everyone* has to learn that actually fits the context of the game...
But no, the dip**** whiner 'pr0' players demand that their games remain unchanging so they don't ever have to face a foreign concept themselves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I will preface this post by saying I have no illusion that any form of bunnyhopping is likely to remain on the marine side in NS2. However, let me explain why I enjoyed the ability on the marine side in NS.
Of course, marines cannot bunnyhop in NS (excepting rare cases). I am referring to the ability to gain some temporary speed through the method alternately known as circle-jumping, glidejumping, or strafejumping. In this post I will use the latter designation.
In the real world you are not restricted to moving at some constant speed. If you want to move faster, you can put in some additional effort and actually move faster. You'll also tire faster, of course.
Many games add a sprint key to simulate this. Hold it to run faster, at the cost of increasing some windedness measure. This addresses two of the above issues. It adds some method to run faster when you need to do so, but at the cost of tiring you. However, there is still one aspect missing. Holding a sprint key takes no extra effort on the player's part!
This is where strafejumping comes in. Through strafejumping you can gain some temporary extra speed, but it takes effort on the player's part to do so.
God forbid we think up something NEW that *everyone* has to learn that actually fits the context of the game...
But no, the dip**** whiner 'pr0' players demand that their games remain unchanging so they don't ever have to face a foreign concept themselves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you talking about thinking up something new? Or removing something that works well already and replacing it with nothing?
Because it's unrealistic? Because it's hard to master?
Jump, in NS, in it's current form, makes gameplay better pretty much universally so. It adds wealths of freedom to your capabilities and makes the game much more entertaining. "I don't like it" is a really really really really terrible reason to remove it. "it's unrealistic" is equally terrible, and "it's difficult to master" is the reason why many games include features in the first place.
God forbid we think up something NEW that *everyone* has to learn that actually fits the context of the game...
But no, the dip**** whiner 'pr0' players demand that their games remain unchanging so they don't ever have to face a foreign concept themselves.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pro players are good at games in general and will easily adapt to a new game. A players skill is built up year after year across many games and isn't dependent on a single feature within a specific game. For example, we're seeing a lot of high level Warcraft 3 players compete in SC2 at the same level as the old SC1 pros. Players who have a lot of talent aren't afraid of having to master a new concept.
I think most pro (or 'pr0' as you call them every time) players are afraid that movement skill in general will be removed and/or replaced with something that doesn't add as much depth to the game.
No it's not. You and I both know how to run, it's in our genes. The 'average gamer' won't know how to do such a thing without being told how to learn it.
Is it in your genes to press W to run? To move the mouse left to look left?
You always have to learn a set of controls in order to play a game.
Get rid of that ######, says I. Keep jump, by all means, but a marine shouldn't be able to leap around like they're gliding through the ###### matrix. One good jump for a quick dodge, not 22 dodges in a goddamn row.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, you'd be the only person I see raging about it 24/7. Everyone I've seen who can actually play the game seems to view it as a fundamental. I'm honestly flabbergasted that you can count yourself as an NS player yet loathe movement so deeply. What happened, were you touched by a bhopper as a child or something?
By the way, did you know that Skiing in Tribes was originally an exploit?
<!--quoteo(post=1766007:date=Apr 11 2010, 11:02 PM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Apr 11 2010, 11:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766007"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think most pro (or 'pr0' as you call them every time) players are afraid that movement skill in general will be removed and/or replaced with something that doesn't add as much depth to the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This. "HOLD SHIFT FOR SPEED" doesn't speak much about depth to me, other than very basic resource management.
Because it's unrealistic? Because it's hard to master?
Jump, in NS, in it's current form, makes gameplay better pretty much universally so. It adds wealths of freedom to your capabilities and makes the game much more entertaining. "I don't like it" is a really really really really terrible reason to remove it. "it's unrealistic" is equally terrible, and "it's difficult to master" is the reason why many games include features in the first place.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Some, including my self, would argue that jump, in most games, doesn't work well. It provides people with a silly/unrealistic way to get an edge over their opponent that you would never find in a sci/fi story ("Flinch saw a dog like alien running towards him so he began jumping up and down, firing his LMG in all directions!") or in real life combat situations.
As humans, jumping up and down over and over is not something we naturally do to avoid danger (Unless you're like trying to jump away from crocodiles or something, or you're a kangaroo). The natural instinct a human being has when faced with danger is to run in the opposite direction or to the closest safe place. So there's your "unrealistic/unnatural" explanation of bunnyhopping, it's tactically unsound. Sprinting and diving to some cover is a correct response to danger and something every soldier/police officer is taught to do in a dangerous situation. Which is why I feel that encouraging people to do so, in a video game, is the best course of action. I feel being tactical and addressing situations in life like manner is something that gives many people a sense of immersion when it comes to games and defeating an enemy while executing such tactics is extremely rewarding.
You never hear people complain whenever they get tactically out maneuvered by the enemy. You don't hear the "Ooo, you ###### flanker!" or "Ooo, look at the ###### utilizing cover!". Yet most people, in most games, will complain everytime when killed by a bunny hopper. What does that tell you about the nature of bunny hopping and the public opinion on it?
However, more likely than not, just like in real life, occasionally you'll have to jump over things.
You always have to learn a set of controls in order to play a game.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's obvious. It's mapped. The gamer has been told by the control set how to run.
I've never been told by a game in the settings options how to exploit movement code to jump faster, have you?
This isn't true at all. In fact, it's approaching FocusedWolf levels of stupid. Different subgenres of shooters, different games within a subgenre, and different weapons within an individual game can all require radically different types of aim. Hell, even little things like how fast your character moves can be enough to change how you aim with the the same weapon. Someone who has excellent twitch aim with the AWP will not necessarily be able to control recoil with an M4 in the same game, do any sort of prediction or juggling with a rocket launcher in TF2, track targets with an LMG/HMG in NS, land close-range shots with a Flak Cannon in UT, or even do something very similar like land a flick rail in Quake simply because they're not used to shooting while both they and their target are moving.
*snip* --Comprox
I've never been told by a game in the settings options how to exploit movement code to jump faster, have you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We continued this line of discussion on IRC, but just to provide closure in this thread:
If you're arguing that the game shouldn't have actions that aren't explicitly bindable, then there are numerous counterexamples to that; the only difference is that the counterexamples are generally intuitive. So you're probably arguing that the game shouldn't have actions that require nonintuitive command sequences to activate, and to that I generally agree - that is the main problem with strafejumping/bunnyhopping.
That doesn't invalidate my original point, though. I was pointing out a positive aspect of marine strafejumping, not denying that it has negative aspects (of which nonintuitiveness is one).