<!--quoteo(post=1766129:date=Apr 12 2010, 01:01 AM:name=a_civilian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (a_civilian @ Apr 12 2010, 01:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766129"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're going to make the extraordinary claim that "most" people complain about bunnyhopping, you will have to support it. I've seen very few bunnyhop complaints in my years playing NS, so statistically the probability that your claim is true is already infinitesimal. As far as I can tell you are simply making that up.
There are a few more complaints about bunnyhopping than about other skills, but most of these (in my experience) are actually script accusations and the rest are from new players who don't realize bunnyhopping in NS has been intentionally implemented as a game feature.
As for tactics, no... people most definitely do complain about tactics - the most obvious examples are camping and spawncamping. They'll also complain about other features such as medspam and pistol sniping. There is nothing special about bunnyhopping in this regard.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, if you played any recent FPS's, where that sort of thing hasn't become socially acceptable, maybe you wouldn't accuse me of "making it up" (Yeah, let me pull up those hundreds of screenshots and videos I have of people complaining about exploits-...). Secondly, jumping in circles, without losing speed, and being able to accurately fire at the enemy is not a realistic action. If UWE was to create a whole separate action where you literally dove and were unable to fire (Or fired and had a 75% chance of shooting yourself in the leg), perhaps I (and in turn many people, from other games, who aren't professional NS1 players) wouldn't mind it as much.
I'm simply arguing that allowing/rewarding people for their superhuman jumping abilities (that maybe one guy in the world could do in real life) in the game may not be something people want. It's not as if the guys at Valve sat down while designing HalfLife and said "Alright, we need a way to quickly move around and avoid enemy fire." and bunny hopping/strafe jumping was born. They most likely sat down and said "Alright, we need a way for people to get over obstacles quickly and easily". It's simply the product of people figuring out the perfect rhythm and direction they need to move/jump in to get an unnatural, and unintended, movement out of the game.
I'm not saying that you can't have a game with jump or that it should be removed completely. I'm just suggesting that the old school club of Natural Selection let go of their love of the secrets of the strafe jump and attempt to think up alternative systems that aren't secrets, hidden in the game, that a new player (who reads up on the game and it's controls) wouldn't know. Imagine making an FPS but leaving in a certain combination of keys that allowed players, who accomplished it, to enter god mode. Eventually, everyone one would learn it and exploit the crap out of it. It's an extreme example but an accurate one none the less. If you give people the ability to have an unnatural advantage over their fellow players, they'll do it and quickly drive new players away.
When "done" (More like left in) a thirdparty mod, it's understandable. However, NS2 is not some thirdparty mod that's free for those interested. It's a full fledged game, which is reaching for more than the devoted fans who pre-purchased it the hour they could, and to allow something like what I've described above to make it in release, could be a problem when NS2 is being advertised to the general sci/fi fan. That doesn't mean that UWE needs to dumb down their game or anything of the sort. I feel that they just simply need to provide the complexity that NS fans are accustomed to in full light. None of the "I just spent 8 hours straight on NS2 and found out that if you press W, S, LShift, Capslock and Enter you turn into a T-Rex!" business. So put in jump (With some sort of 'Stamina' system) and allow people to dodge through an actual (built in) dodge action, just don't make it some hidden thing that a new player wouldn't know from looking at the controls.
PS: Sorry for the wall of text, but I just feel I really need to get my point across as best as possible.
Half of the enjoyment of playing a new multiplayer game for me is discovering new ways of doing things. I dislike having everything presented to me on a silver platter. And besides, bunnyhopping as a skulk was one of the few enjoyments of that class.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited April 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1766451:date=Apr 12 2010, 09:50 PM:name=EnragedPlatypus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnragedPlatypus @ Apr 12 2010, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->First off, if you played any recent FPS's, where that sort of thing hasn't become socially acceptable, maybe you wouldn't accuse me of "making it up" (Yeah, let me pull up those hundreds of screenshots and videos I have of people complaining about exploits-...). Secondly, jumping in circles, without losing speed, and being able to accurately fire at the enemy is not a realistic action. If UWE was to create a whole separate action where you literally dove and were unable to fire (Or fired and had a 75% chance of shooting yourself in the leg), perhaps I (and in turn many people, from other games, who aren't professional NS1 players) wouldn't mind it as much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Edit: never mind. I think I'm justified in calling it a large exaggeration but it's not worth arguing over.
I will say that social acceptability is strongly correlated with whether it's an intentional game mechanic. If people are complaining about bunnyhopping because it's a player abusing what is officially considered a bug, then that really doesn't reflect on bunnyhopping itself - it's more an issue of fairness. For this reason I would contend that it only makes sense to consider games in which bunnyhopping is an intentional mechanic.
<!--quoteo(post=1766451:date=Apr 12 2010, 09:50 PM:name=EnragedPlatypus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnragedPlatypus @ Apr 12 2010, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm simply arguing that allowing/rewarding people for their superhuman jumping abilities (that maybe one guy in the world could do in real life) in the game may not be something people want. It's not as if the guys at Valve sat down while designing HalfLife and said "Alright, we need a way to quickly move around and avoid enemy fire." and bunny hopping/strafe jumping was born. They most likely sat down and said "Alright, we need a way for people to get over obstacles quickly and easily". It's simply the product of people figuring out the perfect rhythm and direction they need to move/jump in to get an unnatural, and unintended, movement out of the game.
I'm not saying that you can't have a game with jump or that it should be removed completely. I'm just suggesting that the old school club of Natural Selection let go of their love of the secrets of the strafe jump and attempt to think up alternative systems that aren't secrets, hidden in the game, that a new player (who reads up on the game and it's controls) wouldn't know. Imagine making an FPS but leaving in a certain combination of keys that allowed players, who accomplished it, to enter god mode. Eventually, everyone one would learn it and exploit the crap out of it. It's an extreme example but an accurate one none the less. If you give people the ability to have an unnatural advantage over their fellow players, they'll do it and quickly drive new players away.
When "done" (More like left in) a thirdparty mod, it's understandable. However, NS2 is not some thirdparty mod that's free for those interested. It's a full fledged game, which is reaching for more than the devoted fans who pre-purchased it the hour they could, and to allow something like what I've described above to make it in release, could be a problem when NS2 is being advertised to the general sci/fi fan. That doesn't mean that UWE needs to dumb down their game or anything of the sort. I feel that they just simply need to provide the complexity that NS fans are accustomed to in full light. None of the "I just spent 8 hours straight on NS2 and found out that if you press W, S, LShift, Capslock and Enter you turn into a T-Rex!" business. So put in jump (With some sort of 'Stamina' system) and allow people to dodge through an actual (built in) dodge action, just don't make it some hidden thing that a new player wouldn't know from looking at the controls.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> First, the realism point. The argument that bunnyhopping is unrealistic strongly depends on how you interpret it. If you interpret it as literal jumping, then of course it's unrealistic. However as I have attempted to explain several times in this thread, jumping can be an abstraction for any kind of motion in which your legs leave the ground - including lunging and even running. The NS implementation of strafejumping for marines corresponds to lunging (since marines cannot actually bunnyhop in NS). In cases in which full bunnyhopping is allowed, this simply corresponds to running - for example, Warsow was designed so that the player animations for bunnyhopping actually look like running, just with longer strides.
Second, you seem to misunderstand most of the supporters of bunnyhop. I, and I suspect most of us, would be perfectly happy with an alternative movement technique that provides a similar level of depth. The problem is that it's quite difficult to think of a completely intuitive technique that still provides a similar level of depth to bunnyhopping. (Actually Bacillus just posted an idea in I&S, though it's still based on bunnyhopping at some level.) Nobody (to my knowledge) enjoys that bunnyhopping is difficult to pick up. What we enjoy is that it's difficult to master and hence provides some extra depth to the game at the individual combat level. And certainly, if bunnyhopping or any similar technique finds its way into NS2 it should absolutely (a) be documented and (b) have the mechanical jump timing part automated (I have no idea why the latter was never implemented in NS, as I'm pretty sure it was considered at one point).
Finally, it simply isn't the case that it's only acceptable for obscure games to have non-obvious movement techniques such as bunnyhopping. Quake 4, a commercial game released in 2005, has elements of bunnyhopping. Team Fortress 2, another commercial game from 2007, has all sorts of explosive (and other weapon)-assisted jumps as well as double jumping. Really it's entirely acceptable for an arcade-style game to have such movement techniques.
<!--quoteo(post=1766469:date=Apr 12 2010, 09:49 PM:name=Voyager I)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Voyager I @ Apr 12 2010, 09:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766469"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm starting to think that some people are simply incapable of understanding that "modern FPS" does not mean "feels like Modern Warfare"<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1766458:date=Apr 13 2010, 03:29 AM:name=dux)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dux @ Apr 13 2010, 03:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Half of the enjoyment of playing a new multiplayer game for me is discovering new ways of doing things. I dislike having everything presented to me on a silver platter. And besides, bunnyhopping as a skulk was one of the few enjoyments of that class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Like I've probably mentioned, the first few SC matches I played after a long period of WC3 were some of the best moments I've had in multiplayer gaming. I was basically yelling my friend in ventrilo to host another right after playing the previous one. The feeling of so many new things to learn and experiment is awesome.
Of course learning the bhop isn't a new experience for me anymore, but learning to use it in NS2 play would definitely be one. At least it's far more to learn than not having such system at all.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually Bacillus just posted an idea in I&S, though it's still based on bunnyhopping at some level.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, just to clarify here, I didn't even try to inject any kind of new freshness in that suggestion. It was just an extremely quick sketch on how the NS1 system could be made a lot more inuitive while still trying to preserve some of the depth the HL system has.
<!--quoteo(post=1765970:date=Apr 11 2010, 11:54 PM:name=puzl)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (puzl @ Apr 11 2010, 11:54 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1765970"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->This has to be a troll.
even the lack of jump in guildwars, a top-down rpg, drope me nuts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But this jump technique is so damn complex! I'll rather have something with that is easy to learn like flash popups which will ask "would you like to climb over this object?". And how am I supposed to hit better players when they use this "jump exploit" to avoid my fire?!
<!--quoteo(post=1766462:date=Apr 12 2010, 10:52 PM:name=a_civilian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (a_civilian @ Apr 12 2010, 10:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766462"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I will say that social acceptability is strongly correlated with whether it's an intentional game mechanic. If people are complaining about bunnyhopping because it's a player abusing what is officially considered a bug, then that really doesn't reflect on bunnyhopping itself - it's more an issue of fairness. For this reason I would contend that it only makes sense to consider games in which bunnyhopping is an intentional mechanic.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bunnyhopping is not a bug, but a feature in the half life engine, thus making it a feature in NS. It <i>is</i> a bug from quake, but Robin Walker stated that he intentionally kept it in when making TFC, when only a handful of german quake players even knew bunnyhopping existed, because of the depth it added to the game. The game, like NS, was later tuned to limit bunnyhopping because the speeds became too fast, but it still remained in the game because it was a valuable skill.
<!--quoteo(post=1766458:date=Apr 13 2010, 02:29 AM:name=dux)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (dux @ Apr 13 2010, 02:29 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766458"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Half of the enjoyment of playing a new multiplayer game for me is discovering new ways of doing things. I dislike having everything presented to me on a silver platter. And besides, bunnyhopping as a skulk was one of the few enjoyments of that class.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We all know that bunny hop (or strafe jump in quake 3) make richer gameplay.
So why the hell do you want to remove it? For those who say it's too difficult, that is not... You just need to train a bit then you do it automaticly and it really allows more movements and combinations of movements in the game. Making a richer gameplay, harder game, with more place for random action and fails. To conclude a less boring game. (that's the main reason why I get bored fast with all modern FPS or very basic FPS like CS...)
+ combine that with the skill required to aim a fast moving alien, NS1 will always stay one of my best FPS game =)
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->Gamers are hyperactive (man)children with almost no attention span. If they don't have a low-consequence button to spam they get very upset. This is why all those people say they hate games without jumping.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
I guess the devs added sprinting for the Marines so they don't jump just for moving faster, but they were smart enough to keep jumping for the marines so they can use it whenever they want / need it. So most likely we'll see a combination of sprinting / jumping for combat and moving over the map, which will most likely result in less bunny hopping or at least adds another aspect for the movement.
I miss jumping from most of the modern games too, but if you realize that it's most of the time taking cover and shoot, while being shot at, it makes perfect sense that you can't jump in those games. In NS without jumping you would have some serious balance issues, because the marines once engaged in close combat are just going to die instantly and that would be annoying for every player, because you couldn't do anything about it.
Thats why we need jumping, but we might also need a better way to move around the map, because bunnyhopping really looks silly, but it's necessary for combat moves (btw talking about realism, I've once seen a short clip on youtube where a guy jumps to avoid two incoming cars and he does that very well and jumps even twice directly after each other, looks a little like bunnyhopping :) so it can be done)
i dont see why people are so against strafejumping in ns2... the corridors aren't long enough (it appears) to make for huge speeds anyways. also, sj isn't hard to learn... also, you can play the game just fine without being able to sj, sj just gives you another advantage.
it seems like some people just want to remove depth for no particular reason.
<!--quoteo(post=1766751:date=Apr 14 2010, 03:37 AM:name=celewign)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (celewign @ Apr 14 2010, 03:37 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766751"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->it seems like some people just want to remove depth for no particular reason.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They can't do it and they don't want to learn how?
Well, in NS's current state, it is impossible to play (and to be able to put up a fight) without mastering your air movement. It radically changes the way you play the game, I can only see frustration as the proper response when a skulk can't even close the distance to a marine.
I would guess that, to differentiate marines and aliens, one team will have all the movement abilities, as evidenced by the skulk hopping and their hive1 leap (and gorge slide!). I while the other one will be somewhat gimped. Isn't that the initial vision of Marine vs Alien?
Note that I'm not exactly against marine jumping. If they have it, it's fine with me (in fact they better be able to jump). I'm just thinking that the jumping shouldn't be an integral part of the marine skillset.
<!--quoteo(post=1766757:date=Apr 13 2010, 09:04 PM:name=Cereal_KillR)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Cereal_KillR @ Apr 13 2010, 09:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766757"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well, in NS's current state, it is impossible to play (and to be able to put up a fight) without mastering your air movement.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Orly? I tend to do just fine even with my horrible (i.e. close to non-existant) bhop skills. I just have good aim and map sense. =]
While I agree with what the OP is saying, I have to agree with some of the criticism. I don't think the technology and processing power ias there yet to handle all the needed predictions in order to reliably do what the player wants. The two best examples of this kind of free running approach are probably Assassin's Creed 2 and Uncharted 2. Generally, it works pretty well. But there's still too many times where the game doesn't do what you expect. Translating that to FPS would also be big task. I think in a few years we'll probably be getting there though.
<!--quoteo(post=1766778:date=Apr 13 2010, 11:03 PM:name=Karrde)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Karrde @ Apr 13 2010, 11:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766778"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While I agree with what the OP is saying, I have to agree with some of the criticism. I don't think the technology and processing power ias there yet to handle all the needed predictions in order to reliably do what the player wants. The two best examples of this kind of free running approach are probably Assassin's Creed 2 and Uncharted 2. Generally, it works pretty well. But there's still too many times where the game doesn't do what you expect. Translating that to FPS would also be big task. I think in a few years we'll probably be getting there though.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Trust me. Throwing more cycles at it is NOT the way to solve an arbitrary problem.
But you forget, if you're a skulk wouldn't you try and jump to get someones neck? Did you not forget that's what all dogs do when they attack a person is jump and try to bite the neck?
How about a human being, if a dog jumps at you wouldn't you jump back to dodge?
I don't understand how removing the jumping ability and putting in animations would make this game more realistic. What if a skulk bites you while you're in an animation how would you react right then?
<!--quoteo(post=1766808:date=Mar 27 1992, 06:11 AM:name=andrewsx)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (andrewsx @ Mar 27 1992, 06:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766808"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Removing jump makes the game more realistic!
But you forget, if you're a skulk wouldn't you try and jump to get someones neck? Did you not forget that's what all dogs do when they attack a person is jump and try to bite the neck?
How about a human being, if a dog jumps at you wouldn't you jump back to dodge?
I don't understand how removing the jumping ability and putting in animations would make this game more realistic. What if a skulk bites you while you're in an animation how would you react right then?
What a stupid suggestion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->Perhaps a secondary part of the problem is that when you jump in a videogame, your character doesn't jump like that. If you jump backwards because a dog is coming at you, it'll probably be a quick, short, flat move, not some powerful backwards long jump. A dodge move of some kind would look and feel far better for that kind of situation.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
Comments
There are a few more complaints about bunnyhopping than about other skills, but most of these (in my experience) are actually script accusations and the rest are from new players who don't realize bunnyhopping in NS has been intentionally implemented as a game feature.
As for tactics, no... people most definitely do complain about tactics - the most obvious examples are camping and spawncamping. They'll also complain about other features such as medspam and pistol sniping. There is nothing special about bunnyhopping in this regard.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First off, if you played any recent FPS's, where that sort of thing hasn't become socially acceptable, maybe you wouldn't accuse me of "making it up" (Yeah, let me pull up those hundreds of screenshots and videos I have of people complaining about exploits-...). Secondly, jumping in circles, without losing speed, and being able to accurately fire at the enemy is not a realistic action. If UWE was to create a whole separate action where you literally dove and were unable to fire (Or fired and had a 75% chance of shooting yourself in the leg), perhaps I (and in turn many people, from other games, who aren't professional NS1 players) wouldn't mind it as much.
I'm simply arguing that allowing/rewarding people for their superhuman jumping abilities (that maybe one guy in the world could do in real life) in the game may not be something people want. It's not as if the guys at Valve sat down while designing HalfLife and said "Alright, we need a way to quickly move around and avoid enemy fire." and bunny hopping/strafe jumping was born. They most likely sat down and said "Alright, we need a way for people to get over obstacles quickly and easily". It's simply the product of people figuring out the perfect rhythm and direction they need to move/jump in to get an unnatural, and unintended, movement out of the game.
I'm not saying that you can't have a game with jump or that it should be removed completely. I'm just suggesting that the old school club of Natural Selection let go of their love of the secrets of the strafe jump and attempt to think up alternative systems that aren't secrets, hidden in the game, that a new player (who reads up on the game and it's controls) wouldn't know. Imagine making an FPS but leaving in a certain combination of keys that allowed players, who accomplished it, to enter god mode. Eventually, everyone one would learn it and exploit the crap out of it. It's an extreme example but an accurate one none the less. If you give people the ability to have an unnatural advantage over their fellow players, they'll do it and quickly drive new players away.
When "done" (More like left in) a thirdparty mod, it's understandable. However, NS2 is not some thirdparty mod that's free for those interested. It's a full fledged game, which is reaching for more than the devoted fans who pre-purchased it the hour they could, and to allow something like what I've described above to make it in release, could be a problem when NS2 is being advertised to the general sci/fi fan. That doesn't mean that UWE needs to dumb down their game or anything of the sort. I feel that they just simply need to provide the complexity that NS fans are accustomed to in full light. None of the "I just spent 8 hours straight on NS2 and found out that if you press W, S, LShift, Capslock and Enter you turn into a T-Rex!" business. So put in jump (With some sort of 'Stamina' system) and allow people to dodge through an actual (built in) dodge action, just don't make it some hidden thing that a new player wouldn't know from looking at the controls.
PS: Sorry for the wall of text, but I just feel I really need to get my point across as best as possible.
Edit: never mind. I think I'm justified in calling it a large exaggeration but it's not worth arguing over.
I will say that social acceptability is strongly correlated with whether it's an intentional game mechanic. If people are complaining about bunnyhopping because it's a player abusing what is officially considered a bug, then that really doesn't reflect on bunnyhopping itself - it's more an issue of fairness. For this reason I would contend that it only makes sense to consider games in which bunnyhopping is an intentional mechanic.
<!--quoteo(post=1766451:date=Apr 12 2010, 09:50 PM:name=EnragedPlatypus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnragedPlatypus @ Apr 12 2010, 09:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766451"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm simply arguing that allowing/rewarding people for their superhuman jumping abilities (that maybe one guy in the world could do in real life) in the game may not be something people want. It's not as if the guys at Valve sat down while designing HalfLife and said "Alright, we need a way to quickly move around and avoid enemy fire." and bunny hopping/strafe jumping was born. They most likely sat down and said "Alright, we need a way for people to get over obstacles quickly and easily". It's simply the product of people figuring out the perfect rhythm and direction they need to move/jump in to get an unnatural, and unintended, movement out of the game.
I'm not saying that you can't have a game with jump or that it should be removed completely. I'm just suggesting that the old school club of Natural Selection let go of their love of the secrets of the strafe jump and attempt to think up alternative systems that aren't secrets, hidden in the game, that a new player (who reads up on the game and it's controls) wouldn't know. Imagine making an FPS but leaving in a certain combination of keys that allowed players, who accomplished it, to enter god mode. Eventually, everyone one would learn it and exploit the crap out of it. It's an extreme example but an accurate one none the less. If you give people the ability to have an unnatural advantage over their fellow players, they'll do it and quickly drive new players away.
When "done" (More like left in) a thirdparty mod, it's understandable. However, NS2 is not some thirdparty mod that's free for those interested. It's a full fledged game, which is reaching for more than the devoted fans who pre-purchased it the hour they could, and to allow something like what I've described above to make it in release, could be a problem when NS2 is being advertised to the general sci/fi fan. That doesn't mean that UWE needs to dumb down their game or anything of the sort. I feel that they just simply need to provide the complexity that NS fans are accustomed to in full light. None of the "I just spent 8 hours straight on NS2 and found out that if you press W, S, LShift, Capslock and Enter you turn into a T-Rex!" business. So put in jump (With some sort of 'Stamina' system) and allow people to dodge through an actual (built in) dodge action, just don't make it some hidden thing that a new player wouldn't know from looking at the controls.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
First, the realism point. The argument that bunnyhopping is unrealistic strongly depends on how you interpret it. If you interpret it as literal jumping, then of course it's unrealistic. However as I have attempted to explain several times in this thread, jumping can be an abstraction for any kind of motion in which your legs leave the ground - including lunging and even running. The NS implementation of strafejumping for marines corresponds to lunging (since marines cannot actually bunnyhop in NS). In cases in which full bunnyhopping is allowed, this simply corresponds to running - for example, Warsow was designed so that the player animations for bunnyhopping actually look like running, just with longer strides.
Second, you seem to misunderstand most of the supporters of bunnyhop. I, and I suspect most of us, would be perfectly happy with an alternative movement technique that provides a similar level of depth. The problem is that it's quite difficult to think of a completely intuitive technique that still provides a similar level of depth to bunnyhopping. (Actually Bacillus just posted an idea in I&S, though it's still based on bunnyhopping at some level.) Nobody (to my knowledge) enjoys that bunnyhopping is difficult to pick up. What we enjoy is that it's difficult to master and hence provides some extra depth to the game at the individual combat level. And certainly, if bunnyhopping or any similar technique finds its way into NS2 it should absolutely (a) be documented and (b) have the mechanical jump timing part automated (I have no idea why the latter was never implemented in NS, as I'm pretty sure it was considered at one point).
Finally, it simply isn't the case that it's only acceptable for obscure games to have non-obvious movement techniques such as bunnyhopping. Quake 4, a commercial game released in 2005, has elements of bunnyhopping. Team Fortress 2, another commercial game from 2007, has all sorts of explosive (and other weapon)-assisted jumps as well as double jumping. Really it's entirely acceptable for an arcade-style game to have such movement techniques.
Or Halo....
Like I've probably mentioned, the first few SC matches I played after a long period of WC3 were some of the best moments I've had in multiplayer gaming. I was basically yelling my friend in ventrilo to host another right after playing the previous one. The feeling of so many new things to learn and experiment is awesome.
Of course learning the bhop isn't a new experience for me anymore, but learning to use it in NS2 play would definitely be one. At least it's far more to learn than not having such system at all.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Actually Bacillus just posted an idea in I&S, though it's still based on bunnyhopping at some level.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, just to clarify here, I didn't even try to inject any kind of new freshness in that suggestion. It was just an extremely quick sketch on how the NS1 system could be made a lot more inuitive while still trying to preserve some of the depth the HL system has.
even the lack of jump in guildwars, a top-down rpg, drope me nuts.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But this jump technique is so damn complex! I'll rather have something with that is easy to learn like flash popups which will ask "would you like to climb over this object?". And how am I supposed to hit better players when they use this "jump exploit" to avoid my fire?!
Bunnyhopping is not a bug, but a feature in the half life engine, thus making it a feature in NS. It <i>is</i> a bug from quake, but Robin Walker stated that he intentionally kept it in when making TFC, when only a handful of german quake players even knew bunnyhopping existed, because of the depth it added to the game. The game, like NS, was later tuned to limit bunnyhopping because the speeds became too fast, but it still remained in the game because it was a valuable skill.
Elitest!!!111111 ;o
So why the hell do you want to remove it? For those who say it's too difficult, that is not... You just need to train a bit then you do it automaticly and it really allows more movements and combinations of movements in the game. Making a richer gameplay, harder game, with more place for random action and fails. To conclude a less boring game. (that's the main reason why I get bored fast with all modern FPS or very basic FPS like CS...)
+ combine that with the skill required to aim a fast moving alien, NS1 will always stay one of my best FPS game =)
~~Sickle~~
same goes for boosting other players by crouching
without jump games feel wrong - and sluggish.
I miss jumping from most of the modern games too, but if you realize that it's most of the time taking cover and shoot, while being shot at, it makes perfect sense that you can't jump in those games. In NS without jumping you would have some serious balance issues, because the marines once engaged in close combat are just going to die instantly and that would be annoying for every player, because you couldn't do anything about it.
Thats why we need jumping, but we might also need a better way to move around the map, because bunnyhopping really looks silly, but it's necessary for combat moves (btw talking about realism, I've once seen a short clip on youtube where a guy jumps to avoid two incoming cars and he does that very well and jumps even twice directly after each other, looks a little like bunnyhopping :) so it can be done)
it seems like some people just want to remove depth for no particular reason.
They can't do it and they don't want to learn how?
I would guess that, to differentiate marines and aliens, one team will have all the movement abilities, as evidenced by the skulk hopping and their hive1 leap (and gorge slide!). I while the other one will be somewhat gimped. Isn't that the initial vision of Marine vs Alien?
Note that I'm not exactly against marine jumping. If they have it, it's fine with me (in fact they better be able to jump). I'm just thinking that the jumping shouldn't be an integral part of the marine skillset.
Orly? I tend to do just fine even with my horrible (i.e. close to non-existant) bhop skills. I just have good aim and map sense. =]
Trust me. Throwing more cycles at it is NOT the way to solve an arbitrary problem.
But you forget, if you're a skulk wouldn't you try and jump to get someones neck? Did you not forget that's what all dogs do when they attack a person is jump and try to bite the neck?
How about a human being, if a dog jumps at you wouldn't you jump back to dodge?
I don't understand how removing the jumping ability and putting in animations would make this game more realistic. What if a skulk bites you while you're in an animation how would you react right then?
What a stupid suggestion.
But you forget, if you're a skulk wouldn't you try and jump to get someones neck? Did you not forget that's what all dogs do when they attack a person is jump and try to bite the neck?
How about a human being, if a dog jumps at you wouldn't you jump back to dodge?
I don't understand how removing the jumping ability and putting in animations would make this game more realistic. What if a skulk bites you while you're in an animation how would you react right then?
What a stupid suggestion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--coloro:grey--><span style="color:grey"><!--/coloro-->Perhaps a secondary part of the problem is that when you jump in a videogame, your character doesn't jump like that. If you jump backwards because a dog is coming at you, it'll probably be a quick, short, flat move, not some powerful backwards long jump. A dodge move of some kind would look and feel far better for that kind of situation.<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->
~~Sickle~~