Jumping and it's place in modern FPS
MiDri
Join Date: 2010-04-10 Member: 71315Members
Join Date: 2010-04-10 Member: 71315Members
So I've been playing around in the alpha engine demo and the levels really make me wonder why we need jumping? I sit and thought about it, and I understand why it used to exist... it was due to the limitations in allowing characters to move over objects. Now we could simply have a climbing animation for lunging over things. It just seems strange to me that we are jumping around... thoughts?
Comments
jumping solves this issue: it simply allows the player to change their altitude. since collision detection is (still difficult but) pretty refined at this point, jumping is the best and most intuitive way to go about this kind of situation.
i do like it when the jumping animation is replaced with several different animations though, so jumping straight into the air doesn't look the same as jumping over a desk.
i concur! lets get some of this with our polish pls!
jumping solves this issue: it simply allows the player to change their altitude. since collision detection is (still difficult but) pretty refined at this point, jumping is the best and most intuitive way to go about this kind of situation.
i do like it when the jumping animation is replaced with several different animations though, so jumping straight into the air doesn't look the same as jumping over a desk.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't see why this would be a problem, you would just cast a ray (or what ever method they use to do line of site) and if you can view over object you can move over it. or if it was a taller object you want to go over, move accordingly up z axis and then do as I've previously stated. The engine can do all the heavy lifting so that map designers don't have to think about what things should be passable or not. Then if you did not want to allow some one to pass over an object you would just add some kind of clip plane brush or something of that nature.
i know it sounds sensible, but what happens when you have a situation where you can't ray trace a movement path? (btw pathway tracing is heavily demanding on comps, i thought, but i don't know).
anyone play mass effect 2? great game, but no jumping. you just go into cover, then charge over obstacles. result: useless feature. i died a lot of times in me2 because i couldn't jump past an obstacle. there is simply no faster way to do what you want to do, and and movement control and speed is crucial, far more important than pretty shiny realism.
I don't think it's realism that it adds, it's just become such an engraved part of how we think we should be able to play. Realistically you'd wind your self very quickly jumping around with 200lbs of armor on + guns and that's not counting the chance that you'd come down wrong and sprain your ankle or something.
I understand it in exploration games where you are bound to rules where canClimb() { if this.slope > 45 { return false } } you need the jumping to make up for a lack of animations and programing that would allow your character to transcend that location. I just think that modern games would be a lot more interesting if we moved away from jumping as a tool for passing obstacles. Bunny hopping is a great example of why its just goofy, but there are more subtle issues with it that make some of the really neat things that could be conceived in level design not work. What if you could crawl stealthy over a crate instead of jumping on it and then to the other side? What if you could vault over/slide under a pipe whilst running after a creature that either pounced over the pipe or was small enough to run under it? These things just don't make sense in a jump to navigate world.
Congratulations on the worst idea of the day!
anyone play mass effect 2? great game, but no jumping. you just go into cover, then charge over obstacles. result: useless feature. i died a lot of times in me2 because i couldn't jump past an obstacle. there is simply no faster way to do what you want to do, and and movement control and speed is crucial, far more important than pretty shiny realism.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ME2 controls when it comes to cover and vaulting are meh...
and casting a ray (or what ever method they use) to figure out if a bullet will connect would work just fine. all it has to do is clear the x or y length of the object to specify a complete vault. if X/Y is short you end up just climbing object and if X/Y is exact vault length you clear it, if X/Y is longer then vault length you end up on top of it again.
If you want to crouchwalk your way to victory, this isn't the game for you.
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Wasn't jump primarily just used for marines to leap around in circles every time someone so much as breathed the word 'Skulk'?
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Usefull?...
<!--quoteo(post=1765693:date=Apr 11 2010, 05:38 AM:name=SentrySteve)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SentrySteve @ Apr 11 2010, 05:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1765693"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While this is ultimately up to your own personal tastes I find jumping is an important aspect in any FPS, modern or not. Jumping in NS1 allowed an individual player to work on their movement skill and allowed that player to work off of the environment. For example, jumping on then off of a railing to avoid a skulk bite. The kind of depth added by increased movement skill, in this case jumping, cannot be easily replaced. Without a jump, in the above scenario the player would have just sat there. After just 'sitting there' battle after battle without much else to worry about save aiming the game may become stale for some.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree that jumping currently adds a lot to the mobility of the players, I'm not saying it should be rid of. I'm just saying why not add some variety in clearing obstacles and make jumping less of a normal maneuver you would do. Sure if you needed to get from pipe A to pipe B and they're 4 feet apart, by all means jump. But to get over a crate it just looks weird to jump 4-5 feet on the Z-axis (given gravity is suppose to be in effect)
Congratulations on the worst idea of the day!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
rofl, couldnt be better said
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You should probably read what the OP is saying before sounding like an idiot.
Jumping is so common in FPS's that removing it would be a very bold move, particularly for an indie game like NS2. For that reason I think it should stay, but I totally agree with what the OP saying. Call of Duty has done it pretty well don't you think? The engine determines what can be climbed by the players, and instead of jumping over them with superhuman strength, players can clamber and vault along these surfaces. I think this idea should be expanded on, and allow a wider variety of animations for climbing over obstacles. It definently adds to the atmosphere, instead of having players bouncing around all over the place. But a competitive game like NS2 needs jump to allow for good movement control between both alien and marine. Still I agree with your idea.
Jumping is so common in FPS's that removing it would be a very bold move, particularly for an indie game like NS2. For that reason I think it should stay, but I totally agree with what the OP saying. Call of Duty has done it pretty well don't you think? The engine determines what can be climbed by the players, and instead of jumping over them with superhuman strength, players can clamber and vault along these surfaces. I think this idea should be expanded on, and allow a wider variety of animations for climbing over obstacles. It definently adds to the atmosphere, instead of having players bouncing around all over the place. But a competitive game like NS2 needs jump to allow for good movement control between both alien and marine. Still I agree with your idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thank you for not only reading but comprehending what I was writing. (No offense to others, My thought patterns are like the freaking bikes in Tron...)
Tracing a ray, not too bad. Pathfinding (i.e. find shortest path between points A and B on this graph), can be painful.
Personally, I don't care. Just get a solid, universal system into the game, stick with it, and make it dependable. No weird Mirror's Edge jump detection stuff.
You can attempt to replace jumping by implementing some the actions it abstracts, but there are clear drawbacks. If you set up a separate command for each action, you overwhelm the player with too many different controls. The alternative is context sensitive controls, but with these it's easy for a player to perform an action by accident that he didn't mean to perform. In any case, you will never approach the freedom of real life by trying to implement all the specific motions individually.
Jumping, on the other hand, instantly grants a level of freedom close to that of real life, at the small cost of also allowing some movements that are unrealistic.
But you put them in because they're part of an FPS.
If you don't want bunnyhopping just include a small tweak that means you lose speed if you don't run between jumps, rather than maintaining constant speed.
But if jumping is removed my avatar would be unable to jump up and down in the middle of an empty room? cause there is no crate near enough to vault over?
What if i want to jump up to be able to look over an obstacle? That's essential.
And context-sensitive movement-animations/jumping-mechanics would be aweful... Simple jumping with slight realism like speed-down while landing, "cooldown" for jumping, very low aircontrol etc simply gives the best playfeeling.
No need for vaulting, special-jumps dependant on environment and such stuff - we are playing fps and not parkour.
Yeah, Call of Duty did it very well. They allow normal jumping and allow the 'vault over this objective' jump. I haven't played CoD:MW2 so I don't know if they've removed normal jumping (I know they removed leaning - a beautiful step backwards), however, in every CoD game before MW2 jumping was a very important aspect to combat. The OP seems to want to replace the normal jump with the 'vault over things' jump. I don't think that's a good idea.