a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
edited April 2010
<!--quoteo(post=1766019:date=Apr 11 2010, 06:48 PM:name=EnragedPlatypus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnragedPlatypus @ Apr 11 2010, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766019"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Some, including my self, would argue that jump, in most games, doesn't work well. It provides people with a silly/unrealistic way to get an edge over their opponent that you would never find in a sci/fi story ("Flinch saw a dog like alien running towards him so he began jumping up and down, firing his LMG in all directions!") or in real life combat situations.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Jumping up and down in NS accomplishes precisely nothing to your advantage. It forces your horizontal speed to 0, making you an easy target, and does little else. The effective way to use jumping in combat is to perform a jump away from your opponent, which is completely reasonable and in fact entirely expected from a realism standpoint.
<!--quoteo(post=1766019:date=Apr 11 2010, 06:48 PM:name=EnragedPlatypus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnragedPlatypus @ Apr 11 2010, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766019"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As humans, jumping up and down over and over is not something we naturally do to avoid danger (Unless you're like trying to jump away from crocodiles or something, or you're a kangaroo). The natural instinct a human being has when faced with danger is to run in the opposite direction or to the closest safe place. So there's your "unrealistic/unnatural" explanation of bunnyhopping, it's tactically unsound. Sprinting and diving to some cover is a correct response to danger and something every soldier/police officer is taught to do in a dangerous situation. Which is why I feel that encouraging people to do so, in a video game, is the best course of action. I feel being tactical and addressing situations in life like manner is something that gives many people a sense of immersion when it comes to games and defeating an enemy while executing such tactics is extremely rewarding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Diving for cover is useless against a melee enemy. Your crocodile exception is actually the norm in NS. If you're being attacked by a small melee opponent, the appropriate response is to jump or lunge away from it, which is exactly what's happening with the jump in NS.
<!--quoteo(post=1766019:date=Apr 11 2010, 06:48 PM:name=EnragedPlatypus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnragedPlatypus @ Apr 11 2010, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766019"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You never hear people complain whenever they get tactically out maneuvered by the enemy. You don't hear the "Ooo, you ###### flanker!" or "Ooo, look at the ###### utilizing cover!". Yet most people, in most games, will complain everytime when killed by a bunny hopper. What does that tell you about the nature of bunny hopping and the public opinion on it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you're going to make the extraordinary claim that "most" people complain about bunnyhopping, you will have to support it. I've seen very few bunnyhop complaints in my years playing NS, so statistically the probability that your claim is true is already infinitesimal. As far as I can tell you are simply making that up.
There are a few more complaints about bunnyhopping than about other skills, but most of these (in my experience) are actually script accusations and the rest are from new players who don't realize bunnyhopping in NS has been intentionally implemented as a game feature.
As for tactics, no... people most definitely do complain about tactics - the most obvious examples are camping and spawncamping. They'll also complain about other features such as medspam and pistol sniping. There is nothing special about bunnyhopping in this regard.
[Edit: before anyone quotes this out of context, I am referring to in-game complaints about the use of the ability, since that is what EnragedPlatypus is speaking of.]
<!--quoteo(post=1766129:date=Apr 11 2010, 11:01 PM:name=a_civilian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (a_civilian @ Apr 11 2010, 11:01 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766129"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you're going to make the extraordinary claim that "most" people complain about bunnyhopping, you will have to support it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SEE FORUMS OF RAAAAAAAGE
Back on a serious note, most don't have issues with movement. bhop is a type of movement that gives great skill ceiling and add wonders to the movement gameplay. However, most are very unhappy about how unintuitive it is to learn and that you can scale up to ungodly speeds.
I must weigh my opinion without adding to the flame hopefully!
Some people have cited examples of games that don't use jumping (COD MW series, GoW, etc). And while they are good games in many ways, they aren't as good as Natural Selection. I've yet to enjoy a game as much as I enjoyed Natural Selection and all the subtle mechanics that surround it, and games stemming from GoldSrc( HL1 and mods, Source Games and mods, Quake, etc ), all have very aged and very deep mechanics that I enjoy thoroughly, and all of them have jump.
NS2 of course is a whole new build from the ground up, so I'm already worried about losing much of the "fluidness" that GoldSrc games have been (whether or not people realize it:) known for and loved.
Please leave jump in!
Also, to most of the posters in this thread: never change.
Games without jumping makes me so sad, it’s a restraint that makes no sense :(
I wonder (and hope) if the autohop in the engine test is gonna stay, at least for skulk/gorge/fade. This would be a great way for people to get over one of the more repetitive and boring bumps in bhop, namely timing your jumps. I think that many new-gamers had a hard time understanding the need for this and how to overcome it with script/mwheel. It is pretty tough to bhop with 1jump on space key alone, especially if you still trying to learn.
<!--quoteo(post=1766171:date=Apr 12 2010, 03:54 AM:name=Space_Cowboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Space_Cowboy @ Apr 12 2010, 03:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766171"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I wonder (and hope) if the autohop in the engine test is gonna stay, at least for skulk/gorge/fade.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Woah woah woah, let's not get ahead of ourselves. Everything in the Engine test is purely to test whether or not it even WORKS on most computers, and how it performs, and to expose how the scripting will be laid out to the hopefully productive modding community. I'm willing to bet most everything relating to movement/collision is very placeholder-y
Games that I've played that didn't allow jumping made me feel confined, I was like a walking monitor. But with the games that had nearly no restrictions on movement was frustrating, as the game became chaotic with players doing nothing but flailing in the air.
I don't know if anyone mentioned this, I tried my best to read everyones comment;
It's obvious games are being pushed for better graphics and thus looking more realistic, wouldn't you want the movement match how it looks? I'm not saying they should remove jumping, I don't ever jump (in real life) but I can still do it. I've also seen some points made by others that jumping shouldn't be an action used often. A(n easy) solution would be to add a short delay before jumping, I don't ever remember wanting to jump (in real life) and instantly being in mid-air. And, why bother having a sprinting key and animation when we could just have that as our default running speed? Small things like this makes the game more enjoyable.
I've seen this arguement "Gameplay > Realism," which is wrong; Realism is a style, and gameplay is a factor. It's "Gameplay > Graphics," and I don't see anyone complaining about how amazing NS2 looks. Making the game look good AND feel good is adding to the gameplay, not destroying it.
TL;DR: Realistic looking games should have realistic movements (with jumping), I don't want to play another Quake Wars (I loved the series but hated that game.) There's no tactic in running in circles, jumping and blazing your weapon.
<!--quoteo(post=1766187:date=Apr 12 2010, 01:05 PM:name=Vehlajurr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vehlajurr @ Apr 12 2010, 01:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766187"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I've seen this arguement "Gameplay > Realism," which is wrong; Realism is a style, and gameplay is a factor. It's "Gameplay > Graphics," and I don't see anyone complaining about how amazing NS2 looks. Making the game look good AND feel good is adding to the gameplay, not destroying it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're missing the point here. The point is that "realism" is not an argument in and of itself. How much of a design goal "realism" (or, more correctly, <i>feeling</i> realistic) is depends entirely on the type of game you're making. Tactical shooters like Counter-Strike, Rainbow Six, and Call of Duty will generally try to to keep the player from doing anything that would be blatantly impossible in real life. At the same time, <i>every</i> game, even the ones that titles themselves simulations, makes concessions for the sake of gameplay (or in conjunction with technical limitations). That's why even most "realistic" or "tactical" games let you get shot more than once and don't especially care where the bullets hit you (as long as it's not the head), don't apply any penalties for being in any state between full health and dead, and more recently, allow you to regenerate your health when you should really be bleeding to death.
As far as NS goes, realism is not an especially high priority. Although it's not quite as frenetic as something like Quake, the basic mechanics are very much in the vein of oldschool deathmatch games. That's why there's no recoil and moving does not affect your ability to shoot, a first aid kit dropped out of the air onto your head can save you <i>while you are currently being eaten</i>, welding a computer console or a fellow soldier accomplishes anything productive, and a hit to the face is exactly as dangerous as taking it in the pinkie toe. The only "realistic" aspects are how you walk much more slowly backwards, can only carry a single primary weapon, have glacial reload times, and all of these are clearly there for the sake of gameplay rather than to bring things closer to reality.
TL;DR: realism is not something you should pursue for its own sake without regard to the kind of game you're actually trying to make.
Seeing how you used Counter Strike and Call of Duty as the same examples, I'm guessing you think I'm completely left/right sided. I'm talking more of the lines of Counter-Strike versus Call of Duty (MW2). As far as I'm concern, their movement and jumping styles are completely different. Counter-Strike is more arcade while MW2 is more up-to-date.
And again, I'm not talking about life-like realism (Iron sighting, headshot kills, ect), I'm talking about jumping (Your whole second paragraph was completely unnecessary, or you completely misunderstood what I mean by "jumping"). I don't want any camera blurring while jumping, or not capable of firing while in mid-air. It just means no classic arcade jumping that involves circling around in the air as you fall just so you're a difficult target to hit. My jumping delay suggestion relates to "No running backwards at full speed" and "No strafing/firing your weapon while sprinting."
<!--quoteo(post=1766187:date=Apr 12 2010, 01:05 PM:name=Vehlajurr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vehlajurr @ Apr 12 2010, 01:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766187"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->TL;DR: Realistic looking games should have realistic movements (with jumping), I don't want to play another Quake Wars (I loved the series but hated that game.) There's no tactic in running in circles, jumping and blazing your weapon.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd just like to point out that things like Quake 3 map control are equally tactic heavy as your average 'slow' shooter. Being fast and mobile don't have any direct connection to the amount of strategy in the game. The amount and type of tactics is more of a game specific thingy. In most cases "running in circles, jumping and blazing your weapon" is just what it seems when you first look at it.
<!--quoteo(post=1766202:date=Apr 12 2010, 02:23 PM:name=Vehlajurr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vehlajurr @ Apr 12 2010, 02:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766202"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Seeing how you used Counter Strike and Call of Duty as the same examples, I'm guessing you think I'm completely left/right sided. I'm talking more of the lines of Counter-Strike versus Call of Duty (MW2). As far as I'm concern, their movement and jumping styles are completely different. Counter-Strike is more arcade while MW2 is more up-to-date.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, I think most people fail to understand that there are different subgenres withing the general category of "First Person Shooter", and take the fact that vaguely realistic feeling tactical shooters have become popular of late to mean that this is an inherently better or more correct ways of designing games.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And again, I'm not talking about life-like realism (Iron sighting, headshot kills, ect), I'm talking about jumping (Your whole second paragraph was completely unnecessary, or you completely misunderstood what I mean by "jumping"). I don't want any camera blurring while jumping, or not capable of firing while in mid-air. It just means no classic arcade jumping that involves circling around in the air as you fall just so you're a difficult target to hit. My jumping delay suggestion relates to "No running backwards at full speed" and "No strafing/firing your weapon while sprinting."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except you've yet to provide any argument as to why that would improve the game, other than that the game should have "realistic" movement to go with its "realistic" graphics.
Why do I feel like you're getting heated over this? I'm sure I didn't say anything directly at you, or your prefered gameplay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And, why bother having a sprinting key and animation when we could just have that as our default running speed? Small things like this makes the game more enjoyable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My "argument" is more of a point. Running around like I'm an actual Marine (Instead of an imaginary super-being) is more enjoyable to others and myself. It was just an idea, not an assault.
<!--quoteo(post=1766214:date=Apr 12 2010, 03:48 PM:name=Vehlajurr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vehlajurr @ Apr 12 2010, 03:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766214"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Why do I feel like you're getting heated over this? I'm sure I didn't say anything directly at you, or your prefered gameplay.
My "argument" is more of a point. Running around like I'm an actual Marine (Instead of an imaginary super-being) is more enjoyable to others and myself. It was just an idea, not an assault.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seems you're missing the point...
to me this "up to date" thing is sort of like comparing chess and checkers, and saying checkers is the obvious choice because it's newer (or "more up to date").
Point: In CS, you run and jump in any old direction, same speed, the end. In CoD:MW2, you run forward, you <i>walk</i> backwards, you strafe left to right, you don't spam jump as much, ect. I know there's not much of a difference, but if they were to use CS momentum in MW2, the game wouldn't <i>feel</i> as "up-to-date" as the graphics are.
And yeah, NS2 should feel more like a newer game rather than an older game with newer graphics, or atleast that's what I hope.
I have played games in the past where they tried to limit what you can do as a player based upon what is most "realistic" in real life.
I hated them all.
The player ends up feeling heavy and restricted. This is simply not mainstream fun and since NS2 is UWE's first game, I'm pretty sure they want mainstream attention.
Furthermore, what about getting stuck on models or other objects? Jumping is a great way to free yourself.
Jumping allows the player to feel free. I don't want to feel weighed down and heavy, that's how I feel in real life! (I'm not heavy either, I weigh 170 and I'm 6'1" but that's not the point...)
I like jumping. Furthermore, I love crouching. You know what bugs the mess out of me?! I can't crouch in the engine test! This is the first thing I noticed. I use crouch+jump a LOT in NS. I do NOT bunnyhop but I still use crouch+jump quite a bit because it makes me feel "light" and free.
<!--quoteo(post=1766251:date=Apr 12 2010, 04:05 PM:name=Vehlajurr)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vehlajurr @ Apr 12 2010, 04:05 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766251"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm missing my own point?
Point: In CS, you run and jump in any old direction, same speed, the end. In CoD:MW2, you run forward, you <i>walk</i> backwards, you strafe left to right, you don't spam jump as much, ect. I know there's not much of a difference, but if they were to use CS momentum in MW2, the game wouldn't <i>feel</i> as "up-to-date" as the graphics are.
And yeah, NS2 should feel more like a newer game rather than an older game with newer graphics, or atleast that's what I hope.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, you're doing it again. You're equating "new" with "vaguely realistic tactical shooter" because there has been a spat of popular ones over the last few years, and then assuming that because this is "new" it's inherently "better" than old games, without making any effort to provide a logical connection between those two points. Just because Modern Warfare and Bad Company have become immensely popular does not mean that <i>every</i> game must utilize the same basic mechanics.
They're different styles of game. NS is an arcade shooter with a few tactical elements added to balance the two sides and promote teamwork. It is not Operation Flashpoint in space.
You couldn't really play NS too well with call of duty style controls, you'd have to make a very different game, it really is more like quake or half life or doom than any other game.
If you slow marines down and give them weapon spread you then need to do something to the aliens because weapons being very accurate is what gives aliens their advantage, you can't spray and hit them so it breaks the balance there, conversely slowing marine movement in some directions causes aliens to gain an advantage in speed, as it usually has aliens chasing marines who are running backwards.
The general effect of it would be to make it so that if an alien gets close, you die, whereas if you see it first, you win.
Which is more or less exactly the balance of call of duty, if you see someone you shoot them, and if they see you you get shot, as you can only look in a small part of your surroundings at once, most of the time you win or lose based on where you happened to be looking rather than the very different style of NS where you win or lose based on your reflexes and your composure.
I like being able to jump, crouch and move around regardless of whether there's an object nearby or not to 'vault' over - notably to dodge or evade enemies. I'd also like to able to shoot with pinpoint accuracy as I jump.
As the rule goes, sometimes the most natural feeling isn't necessarily what's realistic.
I understand adding more maneuvers would be cool/preferred over just plainly jumping though. But I wouldn't want the game release being held up for it =).
Anyway, I had way too much fun jumping maps with friends until the server got populated.
Upon the British declaration of taxing the ability to leap an important man once said "Give me jumping or give me death."
Two hundred and four score years ago our ancestors (*yours*, mine are mexican, so they were probably sleeping) were fighting for our liberty to jump. I find it highly offensive and incredibly unconstitutional that you feel that right is no longer necessary, and that 'the powers that be' may dictate when we can and cannot jump. I will forever defend my God given right to jump when I please, thank you. If you feel that you don't have the necessary faculties to decide when and when not to leap, that is right and proper, but don't make your lack of jumping inclined proclivities my problem. I respectfully disagree.
<!--quoteo(post=1766171:date=Apr 12 2010, 05:54 AM:name=Space_Cowboy)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Space_Cowboy @ Apr 12 2010, 05:54 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766171"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Games without jumping makes me so sad, it’s a restraint that makes no sense :(
I wonder (and hope) if the autohop in the engine test is gonna stay, at least for skulk/gorge/fade. This would be a great way for people to get over one of the more repetitive and boring bumps in bhop, namely timing your jumps. I think that many new-gamers had a hard time understanding the need for this and how to overcome it with script/mwheel. It is pretty tough to bhop with 1jump on space key alone, especially if you still trying to learn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You don't NEED a jump key in most tactical shooters, although, many do still gain an advantage from it, since they can implement things like horizontal gaps in their gameplay mechanics.
NS was never a tactical shooter though. It's not entirely arcade either, but it fits into a third genre, and the point is that the rules of the other genre's don't work at all in the context of NS.
If removing jump works in some other genre, that's great, but we can gain absolutely no useful information about what is best for NS from that.
The basic issue here is not the ability to jump. The issue here is the ability to gain speed by accelerating in the (frictionless) air, and jumping immediately on landing so you don't suffer from ground friction. If you eliminate the speed advantages of bunnyhopping, people will stop doing it to gain speed and only use jump for things like dodging and climbing over things.
It's extremely easy to eliminate the speed advantage of bunnyhopping without taking out jumping. All you have to do is a) immediately cap the player's horizontal speed to their class' max speed whenever they touch the ground b) code your air movement so that if your horizontal speed is equal to or greater than your class' max speed, you cannot further increase your horizontal velocity. We accomplished this in a Source Engine mod by storing the player's velocity before applying air acceleration, applying the air acceleration, then if the player's new velocity exceeded the old velocity, scaling the new velocity to their old velocity. This allowed the players to control their trajectory in the air without getting a speed boost out of it.
Comments
Jumping up and down in NS accomplishes precisely nothing to your advantage. It forces your horizontal speed to 0, making you an easy target, and does little else. The effective way to use jumping in combat is to perform a jump away from your opponent, which is completely reasonable and in fact entirely expected from a realism standpoint.
<!--quoteo(post=1766019:date=Apr 11 2010, 06:48 PM:name=EnragedPlatypus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnragedPlatypus @ Apr 11 2010, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766019"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As humans, jumping up and down over and over is not something we naturally do to avoid danger (Unless you're like trying to jump away from crocodiles or something, or you're a kangaroo). The natural instinct a human being has when faced with danger is to run in the opposite direction or to the closest safe place. So there's your "unrealistic/unnatural" explanation of bunnyhopping, it's tactically unsound. Sprinting and diving to some cover is a correct response to danger and something every soldier/police officer is taught to do in a dangerous situation. Which is why I feel that encouraging people to do so, in a video game, is the best course of action. I feel being tactical and addressing situations in life like manner is something that gives many people a sense of immersion when it comes to games and defeating an enemy while executing such tactics is extremely rewarding.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Diving for cover is useless against a melee enemy. Your crocodile exception is actually the norm in NS. If you're being attacked by a small melee opponent, the appropriate response is to jump or lunge away from it, which is exactly what's happening with the jump in NS.
<!--quoteo(post=1766019:date=Apr 11 2010, 06:48 PM:name=EnragedPlatypus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EnragedPlatypus @ Apr 11 2010, 06:48 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1766019"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You never hear people complain whenever they get tactically out maneuvered by the enemy. You don't hear the "Ooo, you ###### flanker!" or "Ooo, look at the ###### utilizing cover!". Yet most people, in most games, will complain everytime when killed by a bunny hopper. What does that tell you about the nature of bunny hopping and the public opinion on it?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're going to make the extraordinary claim that "most" people complain about bunnyhopping, you will have to support it. I've seen very few bunnyhop complaints in my years playing NS, so statistically the probability that your claim is true is already infinitesimal. As far as I can tell you are simply making that up.
There are a few more complaints about bunnyhopping than about other skills, but most of these (in my experience) are actually script accusations and the rest are from new players who don't realize bunnyhopping in NS has been intentionally implemented as a game feature.
As for tactics, no... people most definitely do complain about tactics - the most obvious examples are camping and spawncamping. They'll also complain about other features such as medspam and pistol sniping. There is nothing special about bunnyhopping in this regard.
[Edit: before anyone quotes this out of context, I am referring to in-game complaints about the use of the ability, since that is what EnragedPlatypus is speaking of.]
SEE FORUMS OF RAAAAAAAGE
Back on a serious note, most don't have issues with movement. bhop is a type of movement that gives great skill ceiling and add wonders to the movement gameplay. However, most are very unhappy about how unintuitive it is to learn and that you can scale up to ungodly speeds.
So.... make it easier to learn!
of cause you cant just stand still and slide you have to run the one point of speed where you can slide
maybe it might be useful hahaha I have no idea just giving out idea
I must weigh my opinion without adding to the flame hopefully!
Some people have cited examples of games that don't use jumping (COD MW series, GoW, etc). And while they are good games in many ways, they aren't as good as Natural Selection. I've yet to enjoy a game as much as I enjoyed Natural Selection and all the subtle mechanics that surround it, and games stemming from GoldSrc( HL1 and mods, Source Games and mods, Quake, etc ), all have very aged and very deep mechanics that I enjoy thoroughly, and all of them have jump.
NS2 of course is a whole new build from the ground up, so I'm already worried about losing much of the "fluidness" that GoldSrc games have been (whether or not people realize it:) known for and loved.
Please leave jump in!
Also, to most of the posters in this thread: never change.
I wonder (and hope) if the autohop in the engine test is gonna stay, at least for skulk/gorge/fade. This would be a great way for people to get over one of the more repetitive and boring bumps in bhop, namely timing your jumps. I think that many new-gamers had a hard time understanding the need for this and how to overcome it with script/mwheel. It is pretty tough to bhop with 1jump on space key alone, especially if you still trying to learn.
Woah woah woah, let's not get ahead of ourselves. Everything in the Engine test is purely to test whether or not it even WORKS on most computers, and how it performs, and to expose how the scripting will be laid out to the hopefully productive modding community. I'm willing to bet most everything relating to movement/collision is very placeholder-y
A gorge without jump ? Onos without it ?
And by the way jump is way faster than having to wait for an animation
I don't know if anyone mentioned this, I tried my best to read everyones comment;
It's obvious games are being pushed for better graphics and thus looking more realistic, wouldn't you want the movement match how it looks? I'm not saying they should remove jumping, I don't ever jump (in real life) but I can still do it. I've also seen some points made by others that jumping shouldn't be an action used often. A(n easy) solution would be to add a short delay before jumping, I don't ever remember wanting to jump (in real life) and instantly being in mid-air. And, why bother having a sprinting key and animation when we could just have that as our default running speed? Small things like this makes the game more enjoyable.
I've seen this arguement "Gameplay > Realism," which is wrong; Realism is a style, and gameplay is a factor. It's "Gameplay > Graphics," and I don't see anyone complaining about how amazing NS2 looks. Making the game look good AND feel good is adding to the gameplay, not destroying it.
TL;DR: Realistic looking games should have realistic movements (with jumping), I don't want to play another Quake Wars (I loved the series but hated that game.) There's no tactic in running in circles, jumping and blazing your weapon.
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=109322" target="_blank">http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/in...howtopic=109322</a>
Not very original or polished, but it's at least an attempt to create something a lot easier to learn.
You're missing the point here. The point is that "realism" is not an argument in and of itself. How much of a design goal "realism" (or, more correctly, <i>feeling</i> realistic) is depends entirely on the type of game you're making. Tactical shooters like Counter-Strike, Rainbow Six, and Call of Duty will generally try to to keep the player from doing anything that would be blatantly impossible in real life. At the same time, <i>every</i> game, even the ones that titles themselves simulations, makes concessions for the sake of gameplay (or in conjunction with technical limitations). That's why even most "realistic" or "tactical" games let you get shot more than once and don't especially care where the bullets hit you (as long as it's not the head), don't apply any penalties for being in any state between full health and dead, and more recently, allow you to regenerate your health when you should really be bleeding to death.
As far as NS goes, realism is not an especially high priority. Although it's not quite as frenetic as something like Quake, the basic mechanics are very much in the vein of oldschool deathmatch games. That's why there's no recoil and moving does not affect your ability to shoot, a first aid kit dropped out of the air onto your head can save you <i>while you are currently being eaten</i>, welding a computer console or a fellow soldier accomplishes anything productive, and a hit to the face is exactly as dangerous as taking it in the pinkie toe. The only "realistic" aspects are how you walk much more slowly backwards, can only carry a single primary weapon, have glacial reload times, and all of these are clearly there for the sake of gameplay rather than to bring things closer to reality.
TL;DR: realism is not something you should pursue for its own sake without regard to the kind of game you're actually trying to make.
And again, I'm not talking about life-like realism (Iron sighting, headshot kills, ect), I'm talking about jumping (Your whole second paragraph was completely unnecessary, or you completely misunderstood what I mean by "jumping"). I don't want any camera blurring while jumping, or not capable of firing while in mid-air. It just means no classic arcade jumping that involves circling around in the air as you fall just so you're a difficult target to hit. My jumping delay suggestion relates to "No running backwards at full speed" and "No strafing/firing your weapon while sprinting."
I'd just like to point out that things like Quake 3 map control are equally tactic heavy as your average 'slow' shooter. Being fast and mobile don't have any direct connection to the amount of strategy in the game. The amount and type of tactics is more of a game specific thingy. In most cases "running in circles, jumping and blazing your weapon" is just what it seems when you first look at it.
No, I think most people fail to understand that there are different subgenres withing the general category of "First Person Shooter", and take the fact that vaguely realistic feeling tactical shooters have become popular of late to mean that this is an inherently better or more correct ways of designing games.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And again, I'm not talking about life-like realism (Iron sighting, headshot kills, ect), I'm talking about jumping (Your whole second paragraph was completely unnecessary, or you completely misunderstood what I mean by "jumping"). I don't want any camera blurring while jumping, or not capable of firing while in mid-air. It just means no classic arcade jumping that involves circling around in the air as you fall just so you're a difficult target to hit. My jumping delay suggestion relates to "No running backwards at full speed" and "No strafing/firing your weapon while sprinting."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Except you've yet to provide any argument as to why that would improve the game, other than that the game should have "realistic" movement to go with its "realistic" graphics.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And, why bother having a sprinting key and animation when we could just have that as our default running speed? Small things like this makes the game more enjoyable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My "argument" is more of a point. Running around like I'm an actual Marine (Instead of an imaginary super-being) is more enjoyable to others and myself. It was just an idea, not an assault.
My "argument" is more of a point. Running around like I'm an actual Marine (Instead of an imaginary super-being) is more enjoyable to others and myself. It was just an idea, not an assault.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It seems you're missing the point...
to me this "up to date" thing is sort of like comparing chess and checkers, and saying checkers is the obvious choice because it's newer (or "more up to date").
Point: In CS, you run and jump in any old direction, same speed, the end. In CoD:MW2, you run forward, you <i>walk</i> backwards, you strafe left to right, you don't spam jump as much, ect. I know there's not much of a difference, but if they were to use CS momentum in MW2, the game wouldn't <i>feel</i> as "up-to-date" as the graphics are.
And yeah, NS2 should feel more like a newer game rather than an older game with newer graphics, or atleast that's what I hope.
Just my thoughts.
I hated them all.
The player ends up feeling heavy and restricted. This is simply not mainstream fun and since NS2 is UWE's first game, I'm pretty sure they want mainstream attention.
Furthermore, what about getting stuck on models or other objects? Jumping is a great way to free yourself.
Jumping allows the player to feel free. I don't want to feel weighed down and heavy, that's how I feel in real life! (I'm not heavy either, I weigh 170 and I'm 6'1" but that's not the point...)
I like jumping. Furthermore, I love crouching. You know what bugs the mess out of me?! I can't crouch in the engine test! This is the first thing I noticed. I use crouch+jump a LOT in NS. I do NOT bunnyhop but I still use crouch+jump quite a bit because it makes me feel "light" and free.
cha-ching. My $0.02
Cheers,
Cody
Point: In CS, you run and jump in any old direction, same speed, the end. In CoD:MW2, you run forward, you <i>walk</i> backwards, you strafe left to right, you don't spam jump as much, ect. I know there's not much of a difference, but if they were to use CS momentum in MW2, the game wouldn't <i>feel</i> as "up-to-date" as the graphics are.
And yeah, NS2 should feel more like a newer game rather than an older game with newer graphics, or atleast that's what I hope.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See, you're doing it again. You're equating "new" with "vaguely realistic tactical shooter" because there has been a spat of popular ones over the last few years, and then assuming that because this is "new" it's inherently "better" than old games, without making any effort to provide a logical connection between those two points. Just because Modern Warfare and Bad Company have become immensely popular does not mean that <i>every</i> game must utilize the same basic mechanics.
They're different styles of game. NS is an arcade shooter with a few tactical elements added to balance the two sides and promote teamwork. It is not Operation Flashpoint in space.
If you slow marines down and give them weapon spread you then need to do something to the aliens because weapons being very accurate is what gives aliens their advantage, you can't spray and hit them so it breaks the balance there, conversely slowing marine movement in some directions causes aliens to gain an advantage in speed, as it usually has aliens chasing marines who are running backwards.
The general effect of it would be to make it so that if an alien gets close, you die, whereas if you see it first, you win.
Which is more or less exactly the balance of call of duty, if you see someone you shoot them, and if they see you you get shot, as you can only look in a small part of your surroundings at once, most of the time you win or lose based on where you happened to be looking rather than the very different style of NS where you win or lose based on your reflexes and your composure.
I understand adding more maneuvers would be cool/preferred over just plainly jumping though. But I wouldn't want the game release being held up for it =).
Anyway, I had way too much fun jumping maps with friends until the server got populated.
Two hundred and four score years ago our ancestors (*yours*, mine are mexican, so they were probably sleeping) were fighting for our liberty to jump. I find it highly offensive and incredibly unconstitutional that you feel that right is no longer necessary, and that 'the powers that be' may dictate when we can and cannot jump. I will forever defend my God given right to jump when I please, thank you. If you feel that you don't have the necessary faculties to decide when and when not to leap, that is right and proper, but don't make your lack of jumping inclined proclivities my problem. I respectfully disagree.
I wonder (and hope) if the autohop in the engine test is gonna stay, at least for skulk/gorge/fade. This would be a great way for people to get over one of the more repetitive and boring bumps in bhop, namely timing your jumps. I think that many new-gamers had a hard time understanding the need for this and how to overcome it with script/mwheel. It is pretty tough to bhop with 1jump on space key alone, especially if you still trying to learn.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't NEED a jump key in most tactical shooters, although, many do still gain an advantage from it, since they can implement things like horizontal gaps in their gameplay mechanics.
NS was never a tactical shooter though. It's not entirely arcade either, but it fits into a third genre, and the point is that the rules of the other genre's don't work at all in the context of NS.
If removing jump works in some other genre, that's great, but we can gain absolutely no useful information about what is best for NS from that.
Even in WoW you could jump and use the half second to hit another bound key making more APMs.
It's extremely easy to eliminate the speed advantage of bunnyhopping without taking out jumping. All you have to do is a) immediately cap the player's horizontal speed to their class' max speed whenever they touch the ground b) code your air movement so that if your horizontal speed is equal to or greater than your class' max speed, you cannot further increase your horizontal velocity. We accomplished this in a Source Engine mod by storing the player's velocity before applying air acceleration, applying the air acceleration, then if the player's new velocity exceeded the old velocity, scaling the new velocity to their old velocity. This allowed the players to control their trajectory in the air without getting a speed boost out of it.