<!--quoteo(post=1733494:date=Oct 22 2009, 10:41 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Oct 22 2009, 10:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733494"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->There're still significant differences, like 2 leap bites in a row and you're out of adren whereas you can get more bites if you don't leap. I think your prediction of it utterly destroying everything is unwarranted.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Marine vs skulks close combat is almost removed in NS2 once second hive goes up. Add in the fact that the second ability will allow you to "blindly ignore" bite timing and range. The dev team has also said that leap will be used as a long distance movement mechanic for traversing the map, it must be feasible to use it TWO more times instead of standard bite during combat. Furthermore, you also save the energy from "missed" bites. These both assume the adren system is anything like that of NS1. From the information we have now, it is perfectly reasonable to assume no one, new or veteran will be using the standard bite. I'm sorry, but having 1 button for moving around the map, leaping at the enemy, and actually attacking WILL lead to skulks spamming 1 button all game getting blind luck kills on marines.
"You havn't seen it in action yet." - Well obviously, but thats not the point. <b>Neither has the development team.</b> This idea is conceptually flawed.
<!--quoteo(post=1733497:date=Oct 22 2009, 06:55 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 22 2009, 06:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733497"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From the information we have now, it is perfectly reasonable to assume no one, new or veteran will be using the standard bite. This idea is conceptually flawed.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That isn't perfectly reasonable to assume, and you haven't shown that the idea is "conceptually flawed" either.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1733497:date=Oct 22 2009, 02:55 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 22 2009, 02:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733497"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Add in the fact that the second ability will allow you to "blindly ignore" bite timing and range.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It doesn't have to "blindly ignore"; that's just an assumption on your part. .If leap has no or a low cooldown than a consecutive leap will not produce a bite because the bitecooldown is not finished. If leap has a high cool down it completely changes the timings. 3 leap-bites could take 2.5 secs while 3 regular bites could take 2 secs or something similar. <!--quoteo(post=1733497:date=Oct 22 2009, 02:55 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 22 2009, 02:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733497"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The dev team has also said that leap will be used as a long distance movement mechanic for traversing the map, it must be feasible to use it TWO more times instead of standard bite during combat. Furthermore, you also save the energy from "missed" bites.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> As you noted, the adren used for a leap-bite will be substantially different from the adren used for only movement. Add to that bhop is still on the skulk it seems likely that you will use leap to get up to speed and then bhop to maintain it for travel. <!--quoteo(post=1733497:date=Oct 22 2009, 02:55 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 22 2009, 02:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733497"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From the information we have now, it is perfectly reasonable to assume no one, new or veteran will be using the standard bite. I'm sorry, but having 1 button for moving around the map, leaping at the enemy, and actually attacking WILL lead to skulks spamming 1 button all game getting blind luck kills on marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, I think your prediction that everything will be ruined is overblown.
<!--quoteo(post=1733501:date=Oct 22 2009, 11:15 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Oct 22 2009, 11:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733501"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't have to "blindly ignore"; that's just an assumption on your part.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Do you not understand the meaning of the word "auto"?
<!--quoteo(post=1733506:date=Oct 22 2009, 01:23 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 22 2009, 01:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733506"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you not understand the meaning of the word "auto"?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Auto means automated, so it is easy to imagine: Bite has a 1 second delay. If you click the attack button before one second nothing happens. Bite is automatically triggered when leap makes contact. Skulk bites and then leaps, making contact with the marine .5 seconds later. Autobite kicks in, and triggers Bite, however the 1 second delay has not yet passed so nothing happens.
Auto does not mean 'will absolutely happen' just that it is automatically triggered. I'm guessing that either the leap will be delayed by the original bite or the autobite simply won't complete. If leaping gets you to the marine but takes a large amount of stamina then walking and biting will be used instead of leaping while in combat.
There's lots of things that would make it work like now without requiring the additional click to bite.
<!--quoteo(post=1733501:date=Oct 22 2009, 11:15 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Oct 22 2009, 11:15 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733501"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It doesn't have to "blindly ignore"; that's just an assumption on your part. .If leap has no or a low cooldown than a consecutive leap will not produce a bite because the bitecooldown is not finished. If leap has a high cool down it completely changes the timings. 3 leap-bites could take 2.5 secs while 3 regular bites could take 2 secs or something similar.
As you noted, the adren used for a leap-bite will be substantially different from the adren used for only movement. Add to that bhop is still on the skulk it seems likely that you will use leap to get up to speed and then bhop to maintain it for travel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1733508:date=Oct 22 2009, 11:36 AM:name=snooggums)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snooggums @ Oct 22 2009, 11:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Auto means automated, so it is easy to imagine: Bite has a 1 second delay. If you click the attack button before one second nothing happens. Bite is automatically triggered when leap makes contact. Skulk bites and then leaps, making contact with the marine .5 seconds later. Autobite kicks in, and triggers Bite, however the 1 second delay has not yet passed so nothing happens.
Auto does not mean 'will absolutely happen' just that it is automatically triggered. I'm guessing that either the leap will be delayed by the original bite or the autobite simply won't complete. If leaping gets you to the marine but takes a large amount of stamina then walking and biting will be used instead of leaping while in combat.
There's lots of things that would make it work like now without requiring the additional click to bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both of you are jumping through hoops of complexity to justify implementing a feature that's only pro is to simply the system. Why not just keep it truly simple? A separate button for +movement and a separate button for +attack. It doesn't get any simpler, intuitive, or flexible than that.
...this discussion went south really hard. Though I agree that having bite attached to leap is kind of pointless. Though I am not immediately offended by it.
I do wonder how the leap will work. Is the automated bite included in the leap energy cost or are they paid separately? For example, leap costs 20 energy and if you touch a target, it takes another 15 energy to automatically bite the target. Using leap to escape a sticky situation with an increased cost (and unnecessary cost) for no real reason seems iffy to me.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1733506:date=Oct 22 2009, 03:23 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 22 2009, 03:23 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733506"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you not understand the meaning of the word "auto"?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'll try and be a little more clear. You'll have to take my statements in context instead of trying to hash everything down to one word though. There can be penalties or disadvantages to using autobite "blindly" such that timing bites and leap is important. Mistiming leads to reduced adrenaline and/or missed bites. That's what I was trying to say when I was talking about cool downs. It seems like a bit of a kludge when it would be easier to not have an autobite at all, but we don't get to make that decision.
If you take an autobite at its naivest and with nothing to balance it and put it in NS1 then maybe it could do what you're describing to the gameplay, but I don't think it will come to that.
<!--quoteo(post=1733509:date=Oct 22 2009, 01:36 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 22 2009, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733509"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Both of you are jumping through hoops of complexity to justify implementing a feature that's only pro is to simply the system. Why not just keep it truly simple? A separate button for +movement and a separate button for +attack. It doesn't get any simpler, intuitive, or flexible than that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because hitting one button to leap and bite if contact is made really is more simple than pressing two buttons and having to time your leap distance we are adding complexity?
Imagine you are a new player, how long will it take to get used to the timing of a leap and a bite? Do we really want new users to have that high of a learning curve as alien while they can simply point and shoot as a marine? I don't, I'd like new people playing and enjoying aliens as much as they enjoy marines. While I don't expect an on/off toggle on release a constructive argument based on actual in game usage would be more likely to get that feature added than just saying "Don't add that feature I like things how they are now".
You saw the quote from the person who preferred the old leap, switch weapon, bite over the +movement, bite right? Keeping complexity because it adds to 'skill' is stupid. Requesting a personal toggle because you want to have more control but you don't care if other people use the auto feature is more logical.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1733509:date=Oct 22 2009, 03:36 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 22 2009, 03:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733509"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Both of you are jumping through hoops of complexity to justify implementing a feature that's only pro is to simply the system. Why not just keep it truly simple? A separate button for +movement and a separate button for +attack. It doesn't get any simpler, intuitive, or flexible than that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Believe me, I don't disagree. I think +movement kicks autobite + altfire leaps ass to tanith and back.
It's not really that complicated though, it's just hard to describe. X is the cooldown for bite, and Y is the cooldown for leap. If X > Y then you'll have to time your leaps to your bite cooldown to avoid missing bites and wasting adren. If X < Y it will be quicker to bite regularly than spam leap.
<!--quoteo(post=1733510:date=Oct 22 2009, 01:41 PM:name=Sirot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sirot @ Oct 22 2009, 01:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733510"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...this discussion went south really hard. Though I agree that having bite attached to leap is kind of pointless. Though I am not immediately offended by it.
I do wonder how the leap will work. Is the automated bite included in the leap energy cost or are they paid separately? For example, leap costs 20 energy and if you touch a target, it takes another 15 energy to automatically bite the target. Using leap to escape a sticky situation with an increased cost (and unnecessary cost) for no real reason seems iffy to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm going to guess this is how it works (as would be logical).
If leap costs 20 and bite costs 15 and 'bite is automatically triggered when a leaping skulk hits a marine':
Skulk leaps (20) to get close to a marine, no contact is made yet so no bite energy is used. Skulk leaps (20) contact is made so the skulk bites (15). Skulk leaps away from combat (20) no bite energy is used. 75 energy used to leap three times and bite once, just like now.
<!--quoteo(post=1733509:date=Oct 22 2009, 01:36 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 22 2009, 01:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733509"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Both of you are jumping through hoops of complexity to justify implementing a feature that's only pro is to simply the system. Why not just keep it truly simple? A separate button for +movement and a separate button for +attack. It doesn't get any simpler, intuitive, or flexible than that.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
just wanted this repeated for the thread skimmers.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1733529:date=Oct 22 2009, 04:36 PM:name=RisingSun)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (RisingSun @ Oct 22 2009, 04:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733529"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->just wanted this repeated for the thread skimmers.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You just wanted to double post for the thread skimmers?
Autobite on leap still requires the alien to aim at the marine and connect, just like aiming a gun.
When the marine fires his gun the bullets fly out and strike the alien automatically, causing damage. When the skulk leaps he has to make an additional bite on contact to cause noticeable damage. Autobite takes care of this without a second key press, just like the marine's ranged attack.
Leap is not comparable to jumping or jetpacks as a marine because those movements are used to get away from an alien, not to get in close to attack. Additionally the gun can be fired while flying, skulks only get to do bite damage when they are close enough. Having to use a movement ability to close that gap doesn't mean the movement ability shouldn't have a damage component when contact is made or that somehow auto aiming a ranged weapon is the same thing as allowing damage to occur if a skulk is able to make contact through ranged attacks.
I apologize if I was unclear in my explanation but I will clarify.
-A skulks bite does significantly more damage than a single bullet -I did not intend to suggest auto-aim for all weapons, just as leap is not for all alien lifeforms
However, a certain gun may have auto-aiming properties due to development of marine technology. Also consider the fact that auto aim will not allow the marine to choose targets, which can significantly cripple any marine facing more than one alien.
Further, auto-aim should not be applied to shotgun type weaponry, but rather applied to lower damage fast firing weapons to give support damage.
It would be a nice addition to the NS2 arsenal, although given the choice, I would choose the good ole peashooter.
<!--quoteo(post=1733536:date=Oct 22 2009, 09:42 PM:name=snooggums)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snooggums @ Oct 22 2009, 09:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733536"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Autobite and autoaim are not equivalent.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo(post=1733536:date=Oct 22 2009, 09:42 PM:name=snooggums)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snooggums @ Oct 22 2009, 09:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733536"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Autobite on leap still requires the alien to aim at the marine and connect, just like aiming a gun. When the marine fires his gun the bullets fly out and strike the alien automatically, causing damage. Autobite takes care of this without a second key press, just like the marine's ranged attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoted for truth!!!
Like I said in a previous post, I think the vast majority of people ITT are just over-reacting to the word "auto" and immediately jumping to the ridiculous conclusion that it is equivalent to autoaim (because auto is in both OMG). If the twitter post had used some other phrase nstead of "autobite" I bet we wouldn't even be having this "discussion."
<!--quoteo(post=1733460:date=Oct 22 2009, 03:58 PM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Oct 22 2009, 03:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733460"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Are you using +movement? I can't see a significant difference between it and autobite in control shuffling.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think I stopped playing before +movement was invented, what does it do? I gather it's some sort of universal movement ability key.
<!--quoteo(post=1733475:date=Oct 22 2009, 05:29 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Oct 22 2009, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733475"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But in NS it's YOUR choice whether or not to tack on the bite at the end. In NS2 it seems it wont be. Calling it an attack move instead of a movement ability is just newspeak for "we choose for you".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why exactly would you not want to chomp a marine if you jumped into him? If you're jumping at a marine it's because you want to kill him. Otherwise it's like saying we should have a safety catch on rifles because if you aim at and alien and pull the trigger you might not want to kill them.
Unless you were xenociding but as far as I know xenocide isn't in NS2, and even then there's nothing to stop xenocide cancelling out autobite.
a_civilianLikes seeing numbersJoin Date: 2003-01-08Member: 12041Members, NS1 Playtester, Playtest Lead
<!--quoteo(post=1733514:date=Oct 22 2009, 03:46 PM:name=snooggums)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snooggums @ Oct 22 2009, 03:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733514"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Imagine you are a new player, how long will it take to get used to the timing of a leap and a bite? Do we really want new users to have that high of a learning curve as alien while they can simply point and shoot as a marine? I don't, I'd like new people playing and enjoying aliens as much as they enjoy marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't understand how this is a matter of timing. Leap does not impair visibility; you see a marine in your face, you hit your attack button. Such a reaction should be perfectly natural to a new player.
<!--quoteo(post=1733552:date=Oct 22 2009, 11:31 PM:name=a_civilian)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (a_civilian @ Oct 22 2009, 11:31 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733552"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I don't understand how this is a matter of timing. Leap does not impair visibility; you see a marine in your face, you hit your attack button. Such a reaction should be perfectly natural to a new player.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I could never hit anything with bite as a skulk, leap or no leap, even when I could aim as a marine I couldn't hit with bite, or fade claws, or any of the melee weapons. If I saw a marine in my face by the time I hit mouse1 he wasn't there any more, first person melee in a fast paced combat environment is extremely disorienting.
<!--quoteo(post=1733539:date=Oct 22 2009, 04:03 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Oct 22 2009, 04:03 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733539"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Quoted for truth!!!
Like I said in a previous post, I think the vast majority of people ITT are just over-reacting to the word "auto" and immediately jumping to the ridiculous conclusion that it is equivalent to autoaim (because auto is in both OMG). If the twitter post had used some other phrase nstead of "autobite" I bet we wouldn't even be having this "discussion."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The problem is with the word auto... Meaning automatic. The vast majority don't see why we need this. Back in NS1 when it actually took some finger work to accomplish a leap bite maybe this would have been a good idea ( I still would be against it) but in NS2 these two abilities will be on different buttons, which I bet will be very accesible in players configs if not right next to one another. Why the need for an automated bite? Oh I know... None. Game isn't in Braille, so people who are blind can't play.
You need automated bite because the control range and sensitivity required for non-direct lines of attack is not provided by the <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->XBOX 360 joystick<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->.
<!--quoteo(post=1733334:date=Oct 21 2009, 07:47 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Oct 21 2009, 07:47 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733334"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Thats like saying having an rpg round auto-explode when it hits its target is "taking away the gameplay from the player" because they don't have to fire it a second time when it reaches its destination. Seriously, what's with all the random-ass nonsensical metaphors ITT?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it ain't.
RPGs are suppose to explode when they hit targets. That isn't taking away from gameplay.
What I suggested was that the marines automatically shooting their weapon when the cross hairs look at an enemy. Which is plain retarded, just like the auto bite idea.
It's not exactly rocket science to hit fire yourself after a leap in a game that's 50% about melee, but I still don't really see a problem with this. If auto-bite will be in there I will use it. Why not?
<!--quoteo(post=1733555:date=Oct 22 2009, 09:36 PM:name=juice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (juice @ Oct 22 2009, 09:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733555"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You need automated bite because the control range and sensitivity required for non-direct lines of attack is not provided by the <!--coloro:lime--><span style="color:lime"><!--/coloro-->XBOX 360 joystick<!--colorc--></span><!--/colorc-->.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The game can't be playable, enjoyable or be made with the thought of more than one gaming platform?
Am I about to turn this into a PC vs Console thread now?
Many gamers use the 360 controller while PC gaming anyway
Personally, if I heard the game was coming out on all the gaming platforms available, I would be extatic. Mostly because of what Flayra was able to acomplish.
I do understand how many other people would feel though and understand the chicken little mindset of 'zomg, consoles .. means the pc version will bite!'
<!--quoteo(post=1733402:date=Oct 22 2009, 03:34 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Oct 22 2009, 03:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733402"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Do you use +movement on mouse2? If you can aim your leap (which is still necessary) and activate it on mouse2 (which UWE should've defaulted for +movement anyway), all you have to do is to press down mouse1 right after pressing mouse2.
The bite rate of fire isn't even that bad, so unless the marine is decent you can afford to miss the best timing and land your 2nd bite or just land the first one late.
At least what I've talked on public games is that most people just don't use +movement because it isn't mouse2 by default. Once they start using it, they realize how inuitive the system is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I may have hit them, but I don't think I ever did. I was great at primary and cloaked attacks, but I honestly don't think I ever hit a marine using the leap. Maybe I hit them but didn't know it? I thought this might be true, but I never saw or noticed any feedback so I don't think I ever did. I figured it was just something of a "spray and pray" method, since the bite lasts a fraction of a second, and leaping is already more then just hitting a button. You have to first approach, then when yuo actually do it, I am not thinking about the "bite" itself. I am usually thinking of my way out, since I know they are going to turn their weapons on me.
I don't think I ever hit one, so I just gave up. it was the same however with lerk flying/bite, so maybe I am just not the type who does well in that area? I seem to do great as a gorge, never heard anyone complain, but that's all I ever played as an alien. :(
I think if the hallways were all straight and narrow, and I would often be in situations where it was a straight leap, then I might try again, but usually I am planning on running around corners when I lean, or the leap is more of a "mid air turn," then a straight line.
Just think of it for the entertainment factor. You put someone in front of the computer and they flail out a kill because autobite was on.
Oh its too easy. Spare me. The only thing deterring NS was the fact that playing the aliens was hard. I showed plenty of people this game. And many liked it but couldn't (wouldn't) play the aliens They all loved two different teams, rts+fps thing. They loved its art and maps.
Besides the whole point of leap was learning to aim leap. I remember biting all the time when i attacked. It was an indimidation thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1733514:date=Oct 22 2009, 02:46 PM:name=snooggums)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snooggums @ Oct 22 2009, 02:46 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733514"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Imagine you are a new player, how long will it take to get used to the timing of a leap and a bite? Do we really want new users to have that high of a learning curve as alien while they can simply point and shoot as a marine? I don't, I'd like new people playing and enjoying aliens as much as they enjoy marines. While I don't expect an on/off toggle on release a constructive argument based on actual in game usage would be more likely to get that feature added than just saying "Don't add that feature I like things how they are now".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Learning how to time bite and leap took me no time at all to get used to really. It's getting the advanced movement skills behind leap and jumping in Half-Life in general that can take some time though, like using leap in conjunction with bunnyhopping / airstrafing.
Part of the problem here is that many people who are agreeing want everything to be easy, which I disagree with. Aliens would be a very disappointing and unsatisfying team to play on if every class was completely open to the entry-level player. One reason I love Natural Selection is due to the particularly large learning curve, but once mastered, the game delivers an extremely satisfying game experience.
Remove the learning curve and you remove much of the depth of the game.
Too much of a learning curve, you drive away new people who don't want to fail over and over till they get it right.
While Flayra is making the game because its what he loves to do, he also needs it to sell for his company to .. you know, actually exist in the future. The best way to do this is to make it available to as many people as possible to pick up and play.
I can appreciate people want a hard game to play and it makes them feel special when they can, but the simple fact is: This isn't a free mod of a game that can afford to not be everyones 'cup of tea'. This game <b>has</b> to be a success or more than likely, UWE will not be able to make another game like it. Period. Thats about the bottom line of this whole argument.
I can appreciate everyone wants a high learning curve, but it drives a lot of people away. You say "good, they're noobs anyway ..." Well, those noobs are allowing Flayra to have a business and secure the future growth of his company.
Comments
Marine vs skulks close combat is almost removed in NS2 once second hive goes up. Add in the fact that the second ability will allow you to "blindly ignore" bite timing and range. The dev team has also said that leap will be used as a long distance movement mechanic for traversing the map, it must be feasible to use it TWO more times instead of standard bite during combat. Furthermore, you also save the energy from "missed" bites. These both assume the adren system is anything like that of NS1. From the information we have now, it is perfectly reasonable to assume no one, new or veteran will be using the standard bite. I'm sorry, but having 1 button for moving around the map, leaping at the enemy, and actually attacking WILL lead to skulks spamming 1 button all game getting blind luck kills on marines.
"You havn't seen it in action yet." - Well obviously, but thats not the point. <b>Neither has the development team.</b> This idea is conceptually flawed.
That isn't perfectly reasonable to assume, and you haven't shown that the idea is "conceptually flawed" either.
It doesn't have to "blindly ignore"; that's just an assumption on your part. .If leap has no or a low cooldown than a consecutive leap will not produce a bite because the bitecooldown is not finished. If leap has a high cool down it completely changes the timings. 3 leap-bites could take 2.5 secs while 3 regular bites could take 2 secs or something similar.
<!--quoteo(post=1733497:date=Oct 22 2009, 02:55 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 22 2009, 02:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733497"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The dev team has also said that leap will be used as a long distance movement mechanic for traversing the map, it must be feasible to use it TWO more times instead of standard bite during combat. Furthermore, you also save the energy from "missed" bites.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As you noted, the adren used for a leap-bite will be substantially different from the adren used for only movement. Add to that bhop is still on the skulk it seems likely that you will use leap to get up to speed and then bhop to maintain it for travel.
<!--quoteo(post=1733497:date=Oct 22 2009, 02:55 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Oct 22 2009, 02:55 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733497"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->From the information we have now, it is perfectly reasonable to assume no one, new or veteran will be using the standard bite. I'm sorry, but having 1 button for moving around the map, leaping at the enemy, and actually attacking WILL lead to skulks spamming 1 button all game getting blind luck kills on marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, I think your prediction that everything will be ruined is overblown.
Do you not understand the meaning of the word "auto"?
Auto means automated, so it is easy to imagine:
Bite has a 1 second delay.
If you click the attack button before one second nothing happens.
Bite is automatically triggered when leap makes contact.
Skulk bites and then leaps, making contact with the marine .5 seconds later.
Autobite kicks in, and triggers Bite, however the 1 second delay has not yet passed so nothing happens.
Auto does not mean 'will absolutely happen' just that it is automatically triggered. I'm guessing that either the leap will be delayed by the original bite or the autobite simply won't complete. If leaping gets you to the marine but takes a large amount of stamina then walking and biting will be used instead of leaping while in combat.
There's lots of things that would make it work like now without requiring the additional click to bite.
As you noted, the adren used for a leap-bite will be substantially different from the adren used for only movement. Add to that bhop is still on the skulk it seems likely that you will use leap to get up to speed and then bhop to maintain it for travel.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1733508:date=Oct 22 2009, 11:36 AM:name=snooggums)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snooggums @ Oct 22 2009, 11:36 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733508"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Auto means automated, so it is easy to imagine:
Bite has a 1 second delay.
If you click the attack button before one second nothing happens.
Bite is automatically triggered when leap makes contact.
Skulk bites and then leaps, making contact with the marine .5 seconds later.
Autobite kicks in, and triggers Bite, however the 1 second delay has not yet passed so nothing happens.
Auto does not mean 'will absolutely happen' just that it is automatically triggered. I'm guessing that either the leap will be delayed by the original bite or the autobite simply won't complete. If leaping gets you to the marine but takes a large amount of stamina then walking and biting will be used instead of leaping while in combat.
There's lots of things that would make it work like now without requiring the additional click to bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Both of you are jumping through hoops of complexity to justify implementing a feature that's only pro is to simply the system. Why not just keep it truly simple? A separate button for +movement and a separate button for +attack. It doesn't get any simpler, intuitive, or flexible than that.
I do wonder how the leap will work. Is the automated bite included in the leap energy cost or are they paid separately? For example, leap costs 20 energy and if you touch a target, it takes another 15 energy to automatically bite the target. Using leap to escape a sticky situation with an increased cost (and unnecessary cost) for no real reason seems iffy to me.
I'll try and be a little more clear. You'll have to take my statements in context instead of trying to hash everything down to one word though. There can be penalties or disadvantages to using autobite "blindly" such that timing bites and leap is important. Mistiming leads to reduced adrenaline and/or missed bites. That's what I was trying to say when I was talking about cool downs. It seems like a bit of a kludge when it would be easier to not have an autobite at all, but we don't get to make that decision.
If you take an autobite at its naivest and with nothing to balance it and put it in NS1 then maybe it could do what you're describing to the gameplay, but I don't think it will come to that.
Because hitting one button to leap and bite if contact is made really is more simple than pressing two buttons and having to time your leap distance we are adding complexity?
Imagine you are a new player, how long will it take to get used to the timing of a leap and a bite? Do we really want new users to have that high of a learning curve as alien while they can simply point and shoot as a marine? I don't, I'd like new people playing and enjoying aliens as much as they enjoy marines. While I don't expect an on/off toggle on release a constructive argument based on actual in game usage would be more likely to get that feature added than just saying "Don't add that feature I like things how they are now".
You saw the quote from the person who preferred the old leap, switch weapon, bite over the +movement, bite right? Keeping complexity because it adds to 'skill' is stupid. Requesting a personal toggle because you want to have more control but you don't care if other people use the auto feature is more logical.
Believe me, I don't disagree. I think +movement kicks autobite + altfire leaps ass to tanith and back.
It's not really that complicated though, it's just hard to describe. X is the cooldown for bite, and Y is the cooldown for leap. If X > Y then you'll have to time your leaps to your bite cooldown to avoid missing bites and wasting adren. If X < Y it will be quicker to bite regularly than spam leap.
I do wonder how the leap will work. Is the automated bite included in the leap energy cost or are they paid separately? For example, leap costs 20 energy and if you touch a target, it takes another 15 energy to automatically bite the target. Using leap to escape a sticky situation with an increased cost (and unnecessary cost) for no real reason seems iffy to me.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm going to guess this is how it works (as would be logical).
If leap costs 20 and bite costs 15 and 'bite is automatically triggered when a leaping skulk hits a marine':
Skulk leaps (20) to get close to a marine, no contact is made yet so no bite energy is used.
Skulk leaps (20) contact is made so the skulk bites (15).
Skulk leaps away from combat (20) no bite energy is used.
75 energy used to leap three times and bite once, just like now.
just wanted this repeated for the thread skimmers.
You just wanted to double post for the thread skimmers?
-1 for autobite. WHY. Just left click.
Edit:
Oh, if aliens get autobite, marines get auto aim pls.
ie) Smartguns in AVP
Autobite on leap still requires the alien to aim at the marine and connect, just like aiming a gun.
When the marine fires his gun the bullets fly out and strike the alien automatically, causing damage. When the skulk leaps he has to make an additional bite on contact to cause noticeable damage. Autobite takes care of this without a second key press, just like the marine's ranged attack.
Leap is not comparable to jumping or jetpacks as a marine because those movements are used to get away from an alien, not to get in close to attack. Additionally the gun can be fired while flying, skulks only get to do bite damage when they are close enough. Having to use a movement ability to close that gap doesn't mean the movement ability shouldn't have a damage component when contact is made or that somehow auto aiming a ranged weapon is the same thing as allowing damage to occur if a skulk is able to make contact through ranged attacks.
-A skulks bite does significantly more damage than a single bullet
-I did not intend to suggest auto-aim for all weapons, just as leap is not for all alien lifeforms
However, a certain gun may have auto-aiming properties due to development of marine technology. Also consider the fact that auto aim will not allow the marine to choose targets, which can significantly cripple any marine facing more than one alien.
Further, auto-aim should not be applied to shotgun type weaponry, but rather applied to lower damage fast firing weapons to give support damage.
It would be a nice addition to the NS2 arsenal, although given the choice, I would choose the good ole peashooter.
<!--quoteo(post=1733536:date=Oct 22 2009, 09:42 PM:name=snooggums)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snooggums @ Oct 22 2009, 09:42 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733536"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Autobite on leap still requires the alien to aim at the marine and connect, just like aiming a gun.
When the marine fires his gun the bullets fly out and strike the alien automatically, causing damage. Autobite takes care of this without a second key press, just like the marine's ranged attack.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoted for truth!!!
Like I said in a previous post, I think the vast majority of people ITT are just over-reacting to the word "auto" and immediately jumping to the ridiculous conclusion that it is equivalent to autoaim (because auto is in both OMG). If the twitter post had used some other phrase nstead of "autobite" I bet we wouldn't even be having this "discussion."
I think I stopped playing before +movement was invented, what does it do? I gather it's some sort of universal movement ability key.
<!--quoteo(post=1733475:date=Oct 22 2009, 05:29 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (tjosan @ Oct 22 2009, 05:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733475"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->But in NS it's YOUR choice whether or not to tack on the bite at the end. In NS2 it seems it wont be. Calling it an attack move instead of a movement ability is just newspeak for "we choose for you".<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why exactly would you not want to chomp a marine if you jumped into him? If you're jumping at a marine it's because you want to kill him. Otherwise it's like saying we should have a safety catch on rifles because if you aim at and alien and pull the trigger you might not want to kill them.
Unless you were xenociding but as far as I know xenocide isn't in NS2, and even then there's nothing to stop xenocide cancelling out autobite.
I don't understand how this is a matter of timing. Leap does not impair visibility; you see a marine in your face, you hit your attack button. Such a reaction should be perfectly natural to a new player.
I could never hit anything with bite as a skulk, leap or no leap, even when I could aim as a marine I couldn't hit with bite, or fade claws, or any of the melee weapons. If I saw a marine in my face by the time I hit mouse1 he wasn't there any more, first person melee in a fast paced combat environment is extremely disorienting.
Like I said in a previous post, I think the vast majority of people ITT are just over-reacting to the word "auto" and immediately jumping to the ridiculous conclusion that it is equivalent to autoaim (because auto is in both OMG). If the twitter post had used some other phrase nstead of "autobite" I bet we wouldn't even be having this "discussion."<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The problem is with the word auto... Meaning automatic. The vast majority don't see why we need this. Back in NS1 when it actually took some finger work to accomplish a leap bite maybe this would have been a good idea ( I still would be against it) but in NS2 these two abilities will be on different buttons, which I bet will be very accesible in players configs if not right next to one another. Why the need for an automated bite? Oh I know... None. Game isn't in Braille, so people who are blind can't play.
No it ain't.
RPGs are suppose to explode when they hit targets. That isn't taking away from gameplay.
What I suggested was that the marines automatically shooting their weapon when the cross hairs look at an enemy. Which is plain retarded, just like the auto bite idea.
The game can't be playable, enjoyable or be made with the thought of more than one gaming platform?
Am I about to turn this into a PC vs Console thread now?
Many gamers use the 360 controller while PC gaming anyway
Personally, if I heard the game was coming out on all the gaming platforms available, I would be extatic. Mostly because of what Flayra was able to acomplish.
I do understand how many other people would feel though and understand the chicken little mindset of 'zomg, consoles .. means the pc version will bite!'
The bite rate of fire isn't even that bad, so unless the marine is decent you can afford to miss the best timing and land your 2nd bite or just land the first one late.
At least what I've talked on public games is that most people just don't use +movement because it isn't mouse2 by default. Once they start using it, they realize how inuitive the system is.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, I may have hit them, but I don't think I ever did. I was great at primary and cloaked attacks, but I honestly don't think I ever hit a marine using the leap. Maybe I hit them but didn't know it? I thought this might be true, but I never saw or noticed any feedback so I don't think I ever did. I figured it was just something of a "spray and pray" method, since the bite lasts a fraction of a second, and leaping is already more then just hitting a button. You have to first approach, then when yuo actually do it, I am not thinking about the "bite" itself. I am usually thinking of my way out, since I know they are going to turn their weapons on me.
I don't think I ever hit one, so I just gave up. it was the same however with lerk flying/bite, so maybe I am just not the type who does well in that area? I seem to do great as a gorge, never heard anyone complain, but that's all I ever played as an alien. :(
I think if the hallways were all straight and narrow, and I would often be in situations where it was a straight leap, then I might try again, but usually I am planning on running around corners when I lean, or the leap is more of a "mid air turn," then a straight line.
Just think of it for the entertainment factor.
You put someone in front of the computer and they flail out a kill because autobite was on.
Oh its too easy. Spare me.
The only thing deterring NS was the fact that playing the aliens was hard.
I showed plenty of people this game.
And many liked it but couldn't (wouldn't) play the aliens
They all loved two different teams, rts+fps thing.
They loved its art and maps.
Besides the whole point of leap was learning to aim leap.
I remember biting all the time when i attacked.
It was an indimidation thing.
Peace.
Out.
... and believe in the pillars.
<a href="http://shfts.com/?p=1287" target="_blank">http://shfts.com/?p=1287</a>
Learning how to time bite and leap took me no time at all to get used to really. It's getting the advanced movement skills behind leap and jumping in Half-Life in general that can take some time though, like using leap in conjunction with bunnyhopping / airstrafing.
Part of the problem here is that many people who are agreeing want everything to be easy, which I disagree with. Aliens would be a very disappointing and unsatisfying team to play on if every class was completely open to the entry-level player. One reason I love Natural Selection is due to the particularly large learning curve, but once mastered, the game delivers an extremely satisfying game experience.
Remove the learning curve and you remove much of the depth of the game.
While Flayra is making the game because its what he loves to do, he also needs it to sell for his company to .. you know, actually exist in the future. The best way to do this is to make it available to as many people as possible to pick up and play.
I can appreciate people want a hard game to play and it makes them feel special when they can, but the simple fact is: This isn't a free mod of a game that can afford to not be everyones 'cup of tea'. This game <b>has</b> to be a success or more than likely, UWE will not be able to make another game like it. Period. Thats about the bottom line of this whole argument.
I can appreciate everyone wants a high learning curve, but it drives a lot of people away. You say "good, they're noobs anyway ..." Well, those noobs are allowing Flayra to have a business and secure the future growth of his company.