<!--quoteo(post=1733578:date=Oct 22 2009, 11:12 PM:name=Silver_Fox)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Silver_Fox @ Oct 22 2009, 11:12 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733578"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I can appreciate people want a hard game to play and it makes them feel special when they can, but the simple fact is: This isn't a free mod of a game that can afford to not be everyones 'cup of tea'. This game <b>has</b> to be a success or more than likely, UWE will not be able to make another game like it. Period. Thats about the bottom line of this whole argument.
I can appreciate everyone wants a high learning curve, but it drives a lot of people away. You say "good, they're noobs anyway ..." Well, those noobs are allowing Flayra to have a business and secure the future growth of his company.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well then if autobite is in the game I also want marines and gorges both to autobuild structures, gorges to autohealspray, marines to autoknife aliens in range, lerks to autobite, fades to autoswipe, and onos to autogore. And now that exoskeletons can punch, I want them to do that automatically too when an alien is in range. And I am being <b>dead</b> serious about all of those things. Why only simplify one class? Go ahead and give them all the 5 star entry level player treatment. There's no point in only making one class easy for new users to play as.
If people have <b>ever</b> played a game before coming to NS2 they will know they may need to press one button to attack (bite) and another to use an alien ability (leap), it's not like UWE is breaking any new grounds with how their aliens attack marines. Leap makes you jump, bite makes you attack. Simple.
This just makes things a bit easier for players who are already good at leaping and biting. It's a big increase for new/bad Alien players who have a hard time doing it.
<!--quoteo(post=1733581:date=Oct 22 2009, 10:22 PM:name=Invader_Scoot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Invader_Scoot @ Oct 22 2009, 10:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733581"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well then if autobite is in the game I also want marines and gorges both to autobuild structures, gorges to autohealspray, marines to autoknife aliens in range, lerks to autobite, fades to autoswipe, and onos to autogore. And now that exoskeletons can punch, I want them to do that automatically too when an alien is in range. And I am being <b>dead</b> serious about all of those things. Why only simplify one class? Go ahead and give them all the 5 star entry level player treatment. There's no point in only making one class easy for new users to play as.
If people have <b>ever</b> played a game before coming to NS2 they will know they may need to press one button to attack (bite) and another to use an alien ability (leap), it's not like UWE is breaking any new grounds with how their aliens attack marines. Leap makes you jump, bite makes you attack. Simple.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Totally agree, don't forget the heat seeking grenades. They are so innacurate noons don't use them!
<!--quoteo(post=1733551:date=Oct 22 2009, 11:26 PM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 22 2009, 11:26 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733551"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think I stopped playing before +movement was invented, what does it do? I gather it's some sort of universal movement ability key.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You see, +movement is the reason I can't see the need for autobite. It's a single key which activates skulk leap, fade blink and onos charge. Bind it to your mouse2 and you've got an instant leap, while the bite is still selected as weapon. You won't have to perform any finger acrobatics midair to switch back to bite, because you've got both bite and leap avaible at all times. The same system works for fade blink, and even metabolizing midblink is relatively easy.
<!--quoteo(post=1733514:date=Oct 22 2009, 11:46 AM:name=snooggums)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snooggums @ Oct 22 2009, 11:46 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733514"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because hitting one button to leap and bite if contact is made really is more simple than pressing two buttons and having to time your leap distance we are adding complexity?
Imagine you are a new player, how long will it take to get used to the timing of a leap and a bite? Do we really want new users to have that high of a learning curve as alien while they can simply point and shoot as a marine? I don't, I'd like new people playing and enjoying aliens as much as they enjoy marines. While I don't expect an on/off toggle on release a constructive argument based on actual in game usage would be more likely to get that feature added than just saying "Don't add that feature I like things how they are now".
You saw the quote from the person who preferred the old leap, switch weapon, bite over the +movement, bite right? Keeping complexity because it adds to 'skill' is stupid. Requesting a personal toggle because you want to have more control but you don't care if other people use the auto feature is more logical.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We are talking about different levels of complexity and totally different skills.
For example, I am typing this post at maybe 20 words per minute. The complex part is the English and not the pressing of the keys. Just as having a single button keyboard wouldn't make my post any better, having a single leap+bite button wouldn't make my skulking any better either.
I am not claiming there is skill in the pressing of the keys but in the actions the keys perform.
<!--quoteo(post=1733596:date=Oct 23 2009, 06:41 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Oct 23 2009, 06:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733596"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You see, +movement is the reason I can't see the need for autobite. It's a single key which activates skulk leap, fade blink and onos charge. Bind it to your mouse2 and you've got an instant leap, while the bite is still selected as weapon. You won't have to perform any finger acrobatics midair to switch back to bite, because you've got both bite and leap avaible at all times. The same system works for fade blink, and even metabolizing midblink is relatively easy.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if you have that system I don't see what difference it makes to have autobite then.
As I said before, when are you not going to try and bite someone if you've leapt into them? Why wouldn't you have it be automatic that you do damage when you hit someone rather than having to press another button every time? It's like requiring two buttons to fire your gun, it might not be difficult as such but why not just have one? This is assuming of course everyone can hit bite at the right time which I never could.
<!--quoteo(post=1733605:date=Oct 23 2009, 08:01 AM:name=Chris0132)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Chris0132 @ Oct 23 2009, 08:01 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733605"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Well if you have that system I don't see what difference it makes to have autobite then.
As I said before, when are you not going to try and bite someone if you've leapt into them? Why wouldn't you have it be automatic that you do damage when you hit someone rather than having to press another button every time? It's like requiring two buttons to fire your gun, it might not be difficult as such but why not just have one? This is assuming of course everyone can hit bite at the right time which I never could.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Because it is less responsive, takes away some slight skill elements and encourages people to stick to inefficient methods. I don't want to force anyone to get better at a game, but as often mentioned, the autobite is most likely hardly as flexible as the manual one. Then again having it automized gives people feedback that they are doing things right, while they could do the manual one for 15 minutes and have a much more responsive and controlled gaming experience after they've figured it out.
I don't think it's that big of a deal in general, but then again I don't understand why the game needs one and I don't like the idea of steering people away from the manual control as it is really enjoyable in NS.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1733606:date=Oct 23 2009, 04:33 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Oct 23 2009, 04:33 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733606"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Because it is less responsive, takes away some slight skill elements and encourages people to stick to inefficient methods. I don't want to force anyone to get better at a game, but as often mentioned, the autobite is most likely hardly as flexible as the manual one. Then again having it automized gives people feedback that they are doing things right, while they could do the manual one for 15 minutes and have a much more responsive and controlled gaming experience after they've figured it out.
I don't think it's that big of a deal in general, but then again I don't understand why the game needs one and I don't like the idea of steering people away from the manual control as it is really enjoyable in NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> At the risk of sounding like an elitist d-bag, is leaping straight at a marine the kind of behavior we want to encourage? I'm okay with more tolerance for such things, but shouldn't the goal to be to move away from that, and attack more intelligently?
<!--quoteo(post=1733557:date=Oct 22 2009, 06:50 PM:name=-Diesel-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Diesel- @ Oct 22 2009, 06:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733557"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->RPGs are suppose to explode when they hit targets. That isn't taking away from gameplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Animals bite when they hit their target, and skulks would have faster reflexes than a human. Making you do every small thing an animal would do is taking away from game play.
<!--quoteo(post=1733557:date=Oct 23 2009, 12:50 AM:name=-Diesel-)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (-Diesel- @ Oct 23 2009, 12:50 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733557"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What I suggested was that the marines automatically shooting their weapon when the cross hairs look at an enemy. Which is plain retarded, just like the auto bite idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your analogy is the only thing that is retarded here - with leap/bite, skulks don't "automatically shoot their weapon when the cross hairs look at an enemy!" They target, lead their target, PRESS ALT-FIRE, and do damage on impact. Which is EXACTLY what Marine weapons already do, so your asinine suggestion is totally pointless and off-topic, just like the dozens of other people who are crying "hurr durr lets give marines autoaim"
<!--quoteo(post=1733644:date=Oct 23 2009, 02:14 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Oct 23 2009, 02:14 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733644"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->At the risk of sounding like an elitist d-bag, is leaping straight at a marine the kind of behavior we want to encourage? I'm okay with more tolerance for such things, but shouldn't the goal to be to move away from that, and attack more intelligently?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm not sure if the autobite essentially makes any difference for it. Do you mean that having the automized bite allows people to score fly-by hits easier?
If so, I'd say it only makes a minute difference. At the point where you are able to try such controlled leaps, snapping a bite in isn't that big of a deal anymore. At least for me it wasn't, but I've always learned things in illogical order.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited October 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1733653:date=Oct 23 2009, 10:56 AM:name=Bacillus)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Bacillus @ Oct 23 2009, 10:56 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733653"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm not sure if the autobite essentially makes any difference for it. Do you mean that having the automized bite allows people to score fly-by hits easier?
If so, I'd say it only makes a minute difference. At the point where you are able to try such controlled leaps, snapping a bite in isn't that big of a deal anymore. At least for me it wasn't, but I've always learned things in illogical order.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sort of. <b>Puzl</b>'s post seemed to highlight making that simple case easier. This plus beefed skulk implies skulks are going to take a more head on approach. The fear that <b>homicide</b> is expressing is that combat will be centered around that instead of the nuances it is now. Basically, how will combat maintain a high skill cap? I think it is too early to say everything is ruined, but I wonder how much farther they will take this as autobite may all ready be a bit farther than I was expecting.
<!--quoteo(post=1733656:date=Oct 23 2009, 09:11 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Oct 23 2009, 09:11 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733656"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Sort of. <b>Puzl</b>'s post seemed to highlight making that simple case easier. This plus beefed skulk implies skulks are going to take a more head on approach. The fear that <b>homicide</b> is expressing is that combat will be centered around that instead of the nuances it is now. Basically, how will combat maintain a high skill cap? I think it is too early to say everything is ruined, but I wonder how much farther they will take this as autobite may all ready be a bit farther than I was expecting.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Combat doesn't need a high skill cap, this is a teamwork oriented game and not a individual stats game. Combat without a high skill requirement can still be dominated by skilled players who simply choose their battles wisely.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1733678:date=Oct 23 2009, 12:57 PM:name=snooggums)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snooggums @ Oct 23 2009, 12:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733678"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Combat doesn't need a high skill cap, this is a teamwork oriented game and not a individual stats game. Combat without a high skill requirement can still be dominated by skilled players who simply choose their battles wisely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> You're talking about a few different things. I don't think a high skill cap and teamwork are mutually exclusive. Having higher skilled players work together will just have better results than lower skilled players working together. Choosing battles wisely is a part of skill, and I've all ready stated that I think autobite effects this skill as well as twitch skill.
<!--quoteo(post=1733680:date=Oct 23 2009, 11:06 AM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Oct 23 2009, 11:06 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733680"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You're talking about a few different things. I don't think a high skill cap and teamwork are mutually exclusive. Having higher skilled players work together will just have better results than lower skilled players working together. Choosing battles wisely is a part of skill, and I've all ready stated that I think autobite effects this skill as well as twitch skill.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> True enough, but I've always felt that in NS1 individual twitch skill had far too much importance, and nearly dominated planning. In fact, the balance of the game before I moved on to other games had become such a razor's edge that the slightest slip in reactions and that razor's edged balance would rapidly snowball into a team lying bloody on the floor waiting for the mop-up. I see auto-bite as dulling this razor slightly. Hopefully lessening the occurences of where teams decide to pour hate on some player because he's of somewhat lesser skill and loses the game for them.
And I also see this as increasing the amount of tactical skill depth the game has, as some posters have pointed out valid reasons why you may not want to bite something. If that's the case, then you'd better be damned good in planning your auto-bite leap to miss what you don't want to hit.
Alternatively, nowhere has anybody said that there isn't a regular leap available as well. Just that the alt-fire for bite is leap+bite. Given that there's been suggestions that leap may be a primary movement capability for the skulks, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a regular leap in addition to the auto-bite leap.
Mastering the Aliens is far and away one of the hardest things in NS. Making the learning curve less steep will make the game much more attractive to new players, or even old players who are extremely rusty (such as myself). I can't tell you how many times I had a friend play NS with me, pick aliens, get absolutely destroyed everytime he saw a marine, and eventually give up on the game as it was too difficult. While I don't think that the game should be completely dumbed down for newer players, they should at least feel that they have a fighting chance so that they are having fun while learning.
Also, just because this basic part of the game is being made easier doesn't mean that there will be other more advanced techniques that will require practice and skill... so it's not as if this change is going to completely destroy the skill aspect of NS.
<!--quoteo(post=1733678:date=Oct 23 2009, 12:57 PM:name=snooggums)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snooggums @ Oct 23 2009, 12:57 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733678"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Combat doesn't need a high skill cap, this is a teamwork oriented game and not a individual stats game. Combat without a high skill requirement can still be dominated by skilled players who simply choose their battles wisely.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Combat-skill matters just as much as tactical-skill in NS1. If fact, it matters more. Individual high-skilled players can and do decide the outcome of games based on the simple fact that them killing the rest of the team so much means that the other team as a whole has less strategies and tactics open to them because of less numbers and less places in the map they can safely traverse. I guess you've just never played a game where one player has a 10:1 Kill:Death ratio. Trust me, they make an impact. For an extreme example; one marine sitting around in a hive and killing all of the aliens as they spawn. An individual high skill player is influencing the outcome of the game based only on their skill.
I would say that a team of incredibly combat-skilled players with a small amount of game-knowledge will always defeat a team of incredibly badly combat-skilled players with amazing game-knowledge. It doesn't matter how well your strategy works if your entire team is dead within 1 minute. Combat-skill certainly matters in FPS-RTS games, and in NS1 it matters a lot.
I do agree with you that knowing the map and the current state of the field (knowledge about NS1, not skill) does have an impact on battle outcomes, as simply being able to shoot well or land those bites (skill, not knowledge about NS1) does. Someone who is skilled but doesn't have a clue where they need to be isn't going to help anyone. IE: Standing around in Marine Start pwning the newb skulks who wander in wouldn't be as effective as killing the alien RTs and establishing map control. However, someone who knows exactly what is going on, but has no skill to act on that information also won't help much. IE: Seeing a fade attacking the AA, but not being able to kill that fade due to lack of skill, and thus losing the AA.
To be an effective NS1 player, you need to be both skilled in combat and knowledgeable about the game in general. Thus, the game needs both high depth for combat-skills and possible tactics/strategies. Combat needs a high skill cap. Tactics needs a high skill cap. NS2 is similar to NS1; both are FPS <b>and</b> an RTS. NS2 needs a high combat skill cap and a high tactics skill cap.
<!--quoteo(post=1733698:date=Oct 23 2009, 02:56 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Oct 23 2009, 02:56 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733698"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Alternatively, nowhere has anybody said that there isn't a regular leap available as well. Just that the alt-fire for bite is leap+bite. Given that there's been suggestions that leap may be a primary movement capability for the skulks, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a regular leap in addition to the auto-bite leap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
People seem to have forgotten that all it takes to turn off auto-bite after a leap is clicking a button in the Options menu. Based on the negative responses, Unknown Worlds is either going to cave (again) or at the very least allow players to choose whether or not they have auto-bite after a leap activated.
If you, the player, somehow got the notion that you, personally, won't be able to keep your "skill ability" and turn off auto-bite after leap, I suggest you start using your mind.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1733706:date=Oct 23 2009, 03:34 PM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Oct 23 2009, 03:34 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People seem to have forgotten that all it takes to turn off auto-bite after a leap is clicking a button in the Options menu. Based on the negative responses, Unknown Worlds is either going to cave (again) or at the very least allow players to choose whether or not they have auto-bite after a leap activated.
If you, the player, somehow got the notion that you, personally, won't be able to keep your "skill ability" and turn off auto-bite after leap, I suggest you start using your mind.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Please show me where that's been said by a dev. AFAIK there's been no mention by a dev of making this option only. You would make me very happy if you could find a quote that said such a thing.
<!--quoteo(post=1733706:date=Oct 23 2009, 11:34 AM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Oct 23 2009, 11:34 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733706"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People seem to have forgotten that all it takes to turn off auto-bite after a leap is clicking a button in the Options menu. Based on the negative responses, Unknown Worlds is either going to cave (again) or at the very least allow players to choose whether or not they have auto-bite after a leap activated.
If you, the player, somehow got the notion that you, personally, won't be able to keep your "skill ability" and turn off auto-bite after leap, I suggest you start using your mind.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited October 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1733713:date=Oct 23 2009, 03:52 PM:name=Invader_Scoot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Invader_Scoot @ Oct 23 2009, 03:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733713"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with this completely, if I have a function that will make me automatically bite, do you really think I will turn that off? No way!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If I found it using too much adren I would turn it off. If it had a slower cooldown than bite I would turn it off. If it caused me to miss in any way I would turn it off(biting prematurely due to lag or not facing the correct direction.)
<!--quoteo(post=1733704:date=Oct 23 2009, 01:29 PM:name=yourbonesakin)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (yourbonesakin @ Oct 23 2009, 01:29 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733704"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Combat-skill matters just as much as tactical-skill in NS1. If fact, it matters more. Individual high-skilled players can and do decide the outcome of games based on the simple fact that them killing the rest of the team so much means that the other team as a whole has less strategies and tactics open to them because of less numbers and less places in the map they can safely traverse. I guess you've just never played a game where one player has a 10:1 Kill:Death ratio. Trust me, they make an impact. For an extreme example; one marine sitting around in a hive and killing all of the aliens as they spawn. An individual high skill player is influencing the outcome of the game based only on their skill.
... To be an effective NS1 player, you need to be both skilled in combat and knowledgeable about the game in general. Thus, the game needs both high depth for combat-skills and possible tactics/strategies. Combat needs a high skill cap. Tactics needs a high skill cap. NS2 is similar to NS1; both are FPS <b>and</b> an RTS. NS2 needs a high combat skill cap and a high tactics skill cap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said that it doesn't need to be skill based like it is in NS1, I fully realize how much a game was impacted by a single player. I remember 1.04, what I would consider the worst version of NS because a single jetpacker with a HMG could kill the hive and end the game. Skill was too important, and I think it should be less important in NS2. One skulk should not be able to kill 5 marines in a single ambush unless the marines are completely incompetent. One marine with LMG should not be able to kill 5 skulks unless they are incompetent. Too many times in NS1 a single player could hop and skip their way around combat in an unrealistic way causing imbalance due to button pressing skill instead of actual tactics.
In NS2 there should be a lower limit to how much that affects the game, so that the team decides the game, not individual players all on their own. Sure Fades should be able to hit and run on their own and Jetpacks can avoid and fly around to kill while avoiding death because of their increased movement, but they shouldn't be the alpha and omega of the team's effectiveness.
Combat needs a lower cap, realistic tactics need to be rewarded more.
<!--quoteo(post=1733713:date=Oct 23 2009, 01:52 PM:name=Invader_Scoot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Invader_Scoot @ Oct 23 2009, 01:52 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733713"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I agree with this completely, if I have a function that will make me automatically bite, do you really think I will turn that off? No way!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If I had another close range attack that was more effective I might turn it off (ie if there was a latch on ability) if there wasn't a separate leaping ability.
<!--quoteo(post=1733729:date=Oct 23 2009, 02:58 PM:name=scary_jeff)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (scary_jeff @ Oct 23 2009, 02:58 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733729"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->OK, let's say I follow the logic of this idea. Why wouldn't we now want the fade to auto-swipe when you hit someone during a blink?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would want them to do so, their reactions should be faster than mine and new players shouldn't have to spend a bunch of resources trying to practice fading in a game and dying just to get their swipe timing down. Blinking around is fairly difficult on it's own, lining up a hit and then timing is is so much harder than just getting a bigger gun to shoot with as a marine. Marines can even have autoknife when they come in contact with an alien with the knife out, I don't care.
Aliens that are animal based should behave as animals by default. Moving and swiping is so much harder than pulling a trigger and it should be made more accessible.
<!--quoteo(post=1733733:date=Oct 23 2009, 09:04 PM:name=snooggums)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snooggums @ Oct 23 2009, 09:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Marines can even have autoknife when they come in contact with an alien with the knife out<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This analogy was completely illogical the first 100 times it was posted in this thread, and it isn't making any more sense with repetition. <i> You need to aim/press alt-fire to leap/bite.</i>
<!--quoteo(post=1733733:date=Oct 23 2009, 04:04 PM:name=snooggums)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (snooggums @ Oct 23 2009, 04:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733733"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Blinking around is fairly difficult on it's own, lining up a hit and then timing is is so much harder than just getting a bigger gun to shoot with as a marine. Marines can even have autoknife when they come in contact with an alien with the knife out, I don't care.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But <i>oh my god</i> is that boring and lame sounding. And zex, you do need to aim with the knife too. As well as aiming for autohealspray, for autogore...
New players rule, honestly. They should go for what will make new players not feel alienated and turned off, especially if we want UWE to succeed as a company (a company is made to earn money after all). We know they strive to make the best game possible, but they can't go on pleasing the same old crowd entirely, some changes have to be done for it to work at the today's market. Half-Life had an engine that could be exploited on mechanics, ledges only a few units in size was a very feasible platform and was developed in a time where everything was different. I want them to do these kind of changes only so they can stay around and do more games.
And auto-bite is blown up to some stupid proportions, the best solution I've read is to just enable auto-bite while the player have the right mouse-button pressed is so simple. That way experienced players can attack people that may be behind a building/other marine without any worries, while new players can enjoy the skulk a bit more without much hassle.
<!--quoteo(post=1733760:date=Oct 23 2009, 11:21 PM:name=Invader_Scoot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Invader_Scoot @ Oct 23 2009, 11:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1733760"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->And zex, you do need to aim with the knife too<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, you need to aim and press fire once to do damage with the knife - just like leap/bite.
Comments
I can appreciate everyone wants a high learning curve, but it drives a lot of people away. You say "good, they're noobs anyway ..." Well, those noobs are allowing Flayra to have a business and secure the future growth of his company.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well then if autobite is in the game I also want marines and gorges both to autobuild structures, gorges to autohealspray, marines to autoknife aliens in range, lerks to autobite, fades to autoswipe, and onos to autogore. And now that exoskeletons can punch, I want them to do that automatically too when an alien is in range. And I am being <b>dead</b> serious about all of those things. Why only simplify one class? Go ahead and give them all the 5 star entry level player treatment. There's no point in only making one class easy for new users to play as.
If people have <b>ever</b> played a game before coming to NS2 they will know they may need to press one button to attack (bite) and another to use an alien ability (leap), it's not like UWE is breaking any new grounds with how their aliens attack marines. Leap makes you jump, bite makes you attack. Simple.
I'm very excited about it.
If people have <b>ever</b> played a game before coming to NS2 they will know they may need to press one button to attack (bite) and another to use an alien ability (leap), it's not like UWE is breaking any new grounds with how their aliens attack marines. Leap makes you jump, bite makes you attack. Simple.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Totally agree, don't forget the heat seeking grenades. They are so innacurate noons don't use them!
You see, +movement is the reason I can't see the need for autobite. It's a single key which activates skulk leap, fade blink and onos charge. Bind it to your mouse2 and you've got an instant leap, while the bite is still selected as weapon. You won't have to perform any finger acrobatics midair to switch back to bite, because you've got both bite and leap avaible at all times. The same system works for fade blink, and even metabolizing midblink is relatively easy.
Imagine you are a new player, how long will it take to get used to the timing of a leap and a bite? Do we really want new users to have that high of a learning curve as alien while they can simply point and shoot as a marine? I don't, I'd like new people playing and enjoying aliens as much as they enjoy marines. While I don't expect an on/off toggle on release a constructive argument based on actual in game usage would be more likely to get that feature added than just saying "Don't add that feature I like things how they are now".
You saw the quote from the person who preferred the old leap, switch weapon, bite over the +movement, bite right? Keeping complexity because it adds to 'skill' is stupid. Requesting a personal toggle because you want to have more control but you don't care if other people use the auto feature is more logical.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We are talking about different levels of complexity and totally different skills.
For example, I am typing this post at maybe 20 words per minute. The complex part is the English and not the pressing of the keys. Just as having a single button keyboard wouldn't make my post any better, having a single leap+bite button wouldn't make my skulking any better either.
I am not claiming there is skill in the pressing of the keys but in the actions the keys perform.
Well if you have that system I don't see what difference it makes to have autobite then.
As I said before, when are you not going to try and bite someone if you've leapt into them? Why wouldn't you have it be automatic that you do damage when you hit someone rather than having to press another button every time? It's like requiring two buttons to fire your gun, it might not be difficult as such but why not just have one? This is assuming of course everyone can hit bite at the right time which I never could.
As I said before, when are you not going to try and bite someone if you've leapt into them? Why wouldn't you have it be automatic that you do damage when you hit someone rather than having to press another button every time? It's like requiring two buttons to fire your gun, it might not be difficult as such but why not just have one? This is assuming of course everyone can hit bite at the right time which I never could.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it is less responsive, takes away some slight skill elements and encourages people to stick to inefficient methods. I don't want to force anyone to get better at a game, but as often mentioned, the autobite is most likely hardly as flexible as the manual one. Then again having it automized gives people feedback that they are doing things right, while they could do the manual one for 15 minutes and have a much more responsive and controlled gaming experience after they've figured it out.
I don't think it's that big of a deal in general, but then again I don't understand why the game needs one and I don't like the idea of steering people away from the manual control as it is really enjoyable in NS.
I don't think it's that big of a deal in general, but then again I don't understand why the game needs one and I don't like the idea of steering people away from the manual control as it is really enjoyable in NS.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At the risk of sounding like an elitist d-bag, is leaping straight at a marine the kind of behavior we want to encourage? I'm okay with more tolerance for such things, but shouldn't the goal to be to move away from that, and attack more intelligently?
Animals bite when they hit their target, and skulks would have faster reflexes than a human. Making you do every small thing an animal would do is taking away from game play.
Your analogy is the only thing that is retarded here - with leap/bite, skulks don't "automatically shoot their weapon when the cross hairs look at an enemy!" They target, lead their target, PRESS ALT-FIRE, and do damage on impact. Which is EXACTLY what Marine weapons already do, so your asinine suggestion is totally pointless and off-topic, just like the dozens of other people who are crying "hurr durr lets give marines autoaim"
I'm not sure if the autobite essentially makes any difference for it. Do you mean that having the automized bite allows people to score fly-by hits easier?
If so, I'd say it only makes a minute difference. At the point where you are able to try such controlled leaps, snapping a bite in isn't that big of a deal anymore. At least for me it wasn't, but I've always learned things in illogical order.
If so, I'd say it only makes a minute difference. At the point where you are able to try such controlled leaps, snapping a bite in isn't that big of a deal anymore. At least for me it wasn't, but I've always learned things in illogical order.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sort of. <b>Puzl</b>'s post seemed to highlight making that simple case easier. This plus beefed skulk implies skulks are going to take a more head on approach. The fear that <b>homicide</b> is expressing is that combat will be centered around that instead of the nuances it is now. Basically, how will combat maintain a high skill cap? I think it is too early to say everything is ruined, but I wonder how much farther they will take this as autobite may all ready be a bit farther than I was expecting.
Combat doesn't need a high skill cap, this is a teamwork oriented game and not a individual stats game. Combat without a high skill requirement can still be dominated by skilled players who simply choose their battles wisely.
You're talking about a few different things. I don't think a high skill cap and teamwork are mutually exclusive. Having higher skilled players work together will just have better results than lower skilled players working together. Choosing battles wisely is a part of skill, and I've all ready stated that I think autobite effects this skill as well as twitch skill.
True enough, but I've always felt that in NS1 individual twitch skill had far too much importance, and nearly dominated planning. In fact, the balance of the game before I moved on to other games had become such a razor's edge that the slightest slip in reactions and that razor's edged balance would rapidly snowball into a team lying bloody on the floor waiting for the mop-up. I see auto-bite as dulling this razor slightly. Hopefully lessening the occurences of where teams decide to pour hate on some player because he's of somewhat lesser skill and loses the game for them.
And I also see this as increasing the amount of tactical skill depth the game has, as some posters have pointed out valid reasons why you may not want to bite something. If that's the case, then you'd better be damned good in planning your auto-bite leap to miss what you don't want to hit.
Alternatively, nowhere has anybody said that there isn't a regular leap available as well. Just that the alt-fire for bite is leap+bite. Given that there's been suggestions that leap may be a primary movement capability for the skulks, I'd be surprised if there wasn't a regular leap in addition to the auto-bite leap.
Also, just because this basic part of the game is being made easier doesn't mean that there will be other more advanced techniques that will require practice and skill... so it's not as if this change is going to completely destroy the skill aspect of NS.
Combat-skill matters just as much as tactical-skill in NS1. If fact, it matters more. Individual high-skilled players can and do decide the outcome of games based on the simple fact that them killing the rest of the team so much means that the other team as a whole has less strategies and tactics open to them because of less numbers and less places in the map they can safely traverse. I guess you've just never played a game where one player has a 10:1 Kill:Death ratio. Trust me, they make an impact. For an extreme example; one marine sitting around in a hive and killing all of the aliens as they spawn. An individual high skill player is influencing the outcome of the game based only on their skill.
I would say that a team of incredibly combat-skilled players with a small amount of game-knowledge will always defeat a team of incredibly badly combat-skilled players with amazing game-knowledge. It doesn't matter how well your strategy works if your entire team is dead within 1 minute. Combat-skill certainly matters in FPS-RTS games, and in NS1 it matters a lot.
I do agree with you that knowing the map and the current state of the field (knowledge about NS1, not skill) does have an impact on battle outcomes, as simply being able to shoot well or land those bites (skill, not knowledge about NS1) does. Someone who is skilled but doesn't have a clue where they need to be isn't going to help anyone. IE: Standing around in Marine Start pwning the newb skulks who wander in wouldn't be as effective as killing the alien RTs and establishing map control. However, someone who knows exactly what is going on, but has no skill to act on that information also won't help much. IE: Seeing a fade attacking the AA, but not being able to kill that fade due to lack of skill, and thus losing the AA.
To be an effective NS1 player, you need to be both skilled in combat and knowledgeable about the game in general. Thus, the game needs both high depth for combat-skills and possible tactics/strategies. Combat needs a high skill cap. Tactics needs a high skill cap. NS2 is similar to NS1; both are FPS <b>and</b> an RTS. NS2 needs a high combat skill cap and a high tactics skill cap.
People seem to have forgotten that all it takes to turn off auto-bite after a leap is clicking a button in the Options menu. Based on the negative responses, Unknown Worlds is either going to cave (again) or at the very least allow players to choose whether or not they have auto-bite after a leap activated.
If you, the player, somehow got the notion that you, personally, won't be able to keep your "skill ability" and turn off auto-bite after leap, I suggest you start using your mind.
If you, the player, somehow got the notion that you, personally, won't be able to keep your "skill ability" and turn off auto-bite after leap, I suggest you start using your mind.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please show me where that's been said by a dev. AFAIK there's been no mention by a dev of making this option only. You would make me very happy if you could find a quote that said such a thing.
If you, the player, somehow got the notion that you, personally, won't be able to keep your "skill ability" and turn off auto-bite after leap, I suggest you start using your mind.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would someone turn it off?
I agree with this completely, if I have a function that will make me automatically bite, do you really think I will turn that off? No way!
If I found it using too much adren I would turn it off. If it had a slower cooldown than bite I would turn it off. If it caused me to miss in any way I would turn it off(biting prematurely due to lag or not facing the correct direction.)
...
To be an effective NS1 player, you need to be both skilled in combat and knowledgeable about the game in general. Thus, the game needs both high depth for combat-skills and possible tactics/strategies. Combat needs a high skill cap. Tactics needs a high skill cap. NS2 is similar to NS1; both are FPS <b>and</b> an RTS. NS2 needs a high combat skill cap and a high tactics skill cap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I said that it doesn't need to be skill based like it is in NS1, I fully realize how much a game was impacted by a single player. I remember 1.04, what I would consider the worst version of NS because a single jetpacker with a HMG could kill the hive and end the game. Skill was too important, and I think it should be less important in NS2. One skulk should not be able to kill 5 marines in a single ambush unless the marines are completely incompetent. One marine with LMG should not be able to kill 5 skulks unless they are incompetent. Too many times in NS1 a single player could hop and skip their way around combat in an unrealistic way causing imbalance due to button pressing skill instead of actual tactics.
In NS2 there should be a lower limit to how much that affects the game, so that the team decides the game, not individual players all on their own. Sure Fades should be able to hit and run on their own and Jetpacks can avoid and fly around to kill while avoiding death because of their increased movement, but they shouldn't be the alpha and omega of the team's effectiveness.
Combat needs a lower cap, realistic tactics need to be rewarded more.
If I had another close range attack that was more effective I might turn it off (ie if there was a latch on ability) if there wasn't a separate leaping ability.
I would want them to do so, their reactions should be faster than mine and new players shouldn't have to spend a bunch of resources trying to practice fading in a game and dying just to get their swipe timing down. Blinking around is fairly difficult on it's own, lining up a hit and then timing is is so much harder than just getting a bigger gun to shoot with as a marine. Marines can even have autoknife when they come in contact with an alien with the knife out, I don't care.
Aliens that are animal based should behave as animals by default. Moving and swiping is so much harder than pulling a trigger and it should be made more accessible.
This analogy was completely illogical the first 100 times it was posted in this thread, and it isn't making any more sense with repetition. <i> You need to aim/press alt-fire to leap/bite.</i>
But <i>oh my god</i> is that boring and lame sounding. And zex, you do need to aim with the knife too. As well as aiming for autohealspray, for autogore...
They should go for what will make new players not feel alienated and turned off, especially if we want UWE to succeed as a company (a company is made to earn money after all).
We know they strive to make the best game possible, but they can't go on pleasing the same old crowd entirely, some changes have to be done for it to work at the today's market.
Half-Life had an engine that could be exploited on mechanics, ledges only a few units in size was a very feasible platform and was developed in a time where everything was different. I want them to do these kind of changes only so they can stay around and do more games.
And auto-bite is blown up to some stupid proportions, the best solution I've read is to just enable auto-bite while the player have the right mouse-button pressed is so simple.
That way experienced players can attack people that may be behind a building/other marine without any worries, while new players can enjoy the skulk a bit more without much hassle.
Compromise? I think so at least.
Yes, you need to aim and press fire once to do damage with the knife - just like leap/bite.