I'm surprised this wasn't mentioned. Dead Space has one of the most impressive player UI's ever made (or lack thereof!). One thing that NS1 did brilliantly was immerse you into the game. Dead Spaces UI does this in a great way. There are no traditional health or ammo meters/gauges. You have to literally look at your suit or your gun for that information. Anything else that needs to display brings up a real time 3D hologram that your character is looking at with you.
Wow that looks sweet. Could be a bit disruptive to have the holo though. Also, the camera doesn't move to match the holo well sometimes, like at about 2/3 into the video. Makes it useless.
<!--quoteo(post=1711993:date=Jun 12 2009, 07:24 AM:name=Harimau)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau @ Jun 12 2009, 07:24 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1711993"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...Makes it useless.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's pretty much what I thought when I played Dead Space (I didn't manage to get more than 3 or 4 hours in, the game was just so terribly slow paced and boring), they got an A for effort for trying to do something innovative with the user interface, but it got an F in the functionality department.
Whenever you wanted to be able to actually use the pretty interface, you had to position the camera in just the right spot, not an enjoyable task in the "we purposely give you terrible controls" genre (a.k.a. the survival horror genre, where the developers are horrified if anyone manages to survive using the crappy controls <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
I could see this working with some sort of "full body awareness" camera. You know the type, where you look down and see your chest/legs/feet if maybe the ammo counter was on the weapon and you could look down at the health/armour meter on the front of the armour. I remember a half done model concept that had a fake health display that sort of stuck out from the front of the armour, I think it was "Nancy" but that thread was gone years ago :-)
I think both marine and alien should be able to peek around the corner or around things
there is a game that can do that i think it was Far cry? soz i cant really remember
my point for peeking is that: i for one who is a very sneaky person think that peeking could comes in handy for once that i dont have to put my whole body just to look around the corner and it becomes safer for the marine against the offensive chamber. as for the alien i think it works nicely for the skulk but about other forms i dont really knows.
but i think there will be problem with body's movement for the marine since if use in actual fight might be annoying for the aliens
(what i mean by this is that if the whole body bend to left or right (think about Fight Night round 3 or Round 4 (xbox's boxing game) you are able to sway ur body like that it might becomes annoying for the alien since it might become harder to bite for them) but that depend
you might be able to do like Gear of war or othergames but i think that might be unfair against the alien but it makes the game more realistic but it might cut out the fun.
It's been done better in ... ... The Chronicles of Rid*ick: Assault on Dark Athena
Just noticed, that they have some nice visual effects that would also work for NS2. <center><object width="450" height="356"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/okc_cW_JaFo"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/okc_cW_JaFo" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" width="450" height="356"></embed></object></center> Basically they have 3 different vision modes. First is normal, everything as usal. While crouching in the dark, vision turns blue to indicate a special stealth mode. I like it how the atmosphere of the room changes immediately. I could imagine something like this as the standard alien view, maybe red, yellow or green instead of blue, and without fully draining all the other colors. There is some barly visible overlay, indicating an eye ball, which you may see at the border of the screen. Third mode is the nightvision mode typical to rid*ick. Notable here is the dazzling effect when looking into bright lights. Also notice the little timespan when deactivating nightvision, in which you nearly go blind before youre eyes are adapting.
There is some other neat <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U91gVcZtCOU" target="_blank">visual effect</a>,but i can hardly imagine that in NS2. Maybe in terms of scanning for invisible players.
The UI NEEDS to be exact numbers so that it allows players to calculate immediately what they can and can't do (and what they need or dont need). This isn't Diablo2.
<!--quoteo(post=1679915:date=May 31 2008, 09:09 PM:name=J!)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J! @ May 31 2008, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have you seen anything in NS done better somewhere else (even if it's not a game)? If you think you have, here's the place to post it. This includes everything and anything related to NS - from eyebrows to particle effects, we want to know what you think is on the cutting edge.
Posting only has one requirement - you have to provide pictures, movies, or sounds; any kind of useful media. It is important that you avoid anything but a tiny bit of text when it comes to explaining things, and avoid debates unless you have something aside from words to prove your point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One thing that I always thought could have been better in NS was the alien and marine blood splatters. The splatter effect in the first Halo was gorgeous, it almost glowed and in fact did glow from certain beings. There were a few custom blood sprites for the original NS but they are no longer available. A really nice blood splatter adds much to the game, and if it were to emit even a small amount of light to a small area that would be ambiance from hell and back.
<!--quoteo(post=1679915:date=May 31 2008, 09:09 PM:name=J!)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (J! @ May 31 2008, 09:09 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679915"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Have you seen anything in NS done better somewhere else (even if it's not a game)? If you think you have, here's the place to post it. This includes everything and anything related to NS - from eyebrows to particle effects, we want to know what you think is on the cutting edge.
Posting only has one requirement - you have to provide pictures, movies, or sounds; any kind of useful media. It is important that you avoid anything but a tiny bit of text when it comes to explaining things, and avoid debates unless you have something aside from words to prove your point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flashlight!!!!
The flashlight in NS was useless. I'm sure being that NS2 is going to be in a new engine it will be much better but please pay particular attention to the execution of the flashlight. Even have it so that it will dim after a while, flicker in instances, etc.
Also, I posted in another thread about blood splatters, and that of the aliens glowing when it hits the walls, this would help the visual experience as well in a dark area.
That being said, I don't think that the brightness of the game should be adjustable beyond a certain point. give players the tools to brighten a room rather than exposing the entire map by turning the brightness way up.
<!--quoteo(post=1716389:date=Jul 8 2009, 01:11 PM:name=Brute)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Brute @ Jul 8 2009, 01:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1716389"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It's been done better in ... ... The Chronicles of Rid*ick: Assault on Dark Athena ...<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice video. Glad you brought up the Alien sight topic. I hope UWE does something very cool in that department.
On another note. I feel like I'm seeing a lot of new games with are trying out the FPS/RTS formula. So far I think no retail game comes close to what NS2 is shaping up to, but it worries me that between now and the NS2 release. Some other game comes along to steal the thunder.
<!--quoteo(post=1725820:date=Sep 1 2009, 03:32 PM:name=NeoSniper)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeoSniper @ Sep 1 2009, 03:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1725820"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Nice video. Glad you brought up the Alien sight topic. I hope UWE does something very cool in that department.
On another note. I feel like I'm seeing a lot of new games with are trying out the FPS/RTS formula. So far I think no retail game comes close to what NS2 is shaping up to, but it worries me that between now and the NS2 release. Some other game comes along to steal the thunder.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're referring to Raven Squad, don't hold your breath.
Dead Space? Come on, you must be kidding. Dead Space is a very slow-paced horror game in 3rd person. All of the game half your screen gets covered by the hero's ###### BACK - which, of course, works very well in a horror game as your view gets limited and you get a feeling of not being in control because you can't see "everything" that could be seen. Your immediate reaction to this is frantic turnings to cover that black spot in your view.
How, at any rate can this help a marine in 1st person? It's like running into a combat zone with a blindfold on.
Btw, the same goes for Resident Evil 5 - which, surprise, surprise, is another Horror game. I guess I can throw away half my Monitor from now on.
What: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pie_menu" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pie_menu</a> Implemented in: <a href="http://code.google.com/p/circular-application-menu/" target="_blank">http://code.google.com/p/circular-application-menu/</a> (videos and screenshots in the link inside) circular-application-menu - A circular-application-menu (C-A-M) representation for the GNOME desktop.
Dunno what you guys are doing in the new game, but in case you are still researching and polishing, something that would be better in perspective to HLNS, unless badly implemented, is a pie menu:
-------------------------------- What: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_gesture" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_gesture</a> Implemented in: <a href="http://optimoz.mozdev.org/gestures/" target="_blank">http://optimoz.mozdev.org/gestures/</a> (example screenshots in the link inside) <i>Mouse Gestures are a fast way to execute commands without using the keyboard, menus or tool-bars. Instead, the user holds down a mouse button (usually the right one), moves the mouse in a certain way to form a gesture, then releases the mouse button.</i>
I remember that late in the game, after a degree of learning, I just had stopped picking things in a menu and was doing more of a mouse gesture, because of how fast we had to it. Losing control of the camera to choose something on the menu, even for 1 / 2 of a second is something we do not want. Why not make it so that more experienced users could choose instead of the menu, the option to use mouse gestures.
Beware making those pies too deep. Grand Ages of Rome filled their particular pies to the brim, making life very hard to click quickly on what you cared about. This is similar I believe to a radial menu, except way cooler.
Mouse gestures might be nice, but I'm unsure what you'd use them on besides the pop-up menu for upgrades. However, many people are a fan of the mouse gestures if we have a similar menu system, so could totally work.
Basically, make the menu UI intuitive and awesome. Good ideas.
<!--quoteo(post=1679924:date=May 31 2008, 10:41 PM:name=CanadianWolverine)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (CanadianWolverine @ May 31 2008, 10:41 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679924"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Not sure if this helps much, but I could have sworn I saw something similar in Left 4 Dead (L4D) videos:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the peeps in L4D auto talk, and it is GREAT!!!! "Smoker! Boomer over here! Pills here!" "ah, Im hurt." Stuff like that they auto say and it is GREAT!
Auto talk: delivering witty one liners. swatting a JP out of the air = "catch you latter" Think of all the cool custom taunt packs...
PS. any thing out of James bond could work. PPS. What sarge has to say on one liners and shotguns. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSR42idDczI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSR42idDczI</a>
<!--quoteo(post=1679917:date=Jun 1 2008, 02:42 AM:name=JazzX)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JazzX @ Jun 1 2008, 02:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1679917"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><img src="http://fminusminus.com/images/uweforums/bf2-menu.jpg" border="0" class="linked-image" /> The Battlefield 2 Pop-up Menu was easier to use and more intuitive than NS's because every option was immediately selectable. No nested node tree, no complicated navigation, and no trying to remember if "Weld Me" was an Order, Request or Saying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Necroquoting here, but I want to point out that Tribes' "V-menu" is so far the single best, most intuitive quick voice-comm system that's ever existed in a game, ever.
In order to use the Battlefield radial menu quickly (I'll take this moment to point out that radial menus SUCK COMPLETELY) you had to memorize where the locations of what you wanted was in relation to the center of the screen. Then you had to hope or pray that your mousing wasn't off and you just asked for the commander to give you an enema.
Tribes' "V-menu" (probably been mentioned somewhere in this thread I'm sure) was completely based on what made sense (well, mostly).
For example, if you wanted to yell at someone to 'DEFEND THE FLAG', you'd hit 'V' to activate the menu. Then you hit 'D' for 'Defend', and then you hit 'F' for 'Flag'. There were other choices in there as well, for example, "<b>D</b>efend our <b>S</b>ensors!" "<b>A</b>ttack the enemy <b>T</b>urrets!" or "<b>N</b>eed a <b>B</b>ombardier!"
This kept you in control of the camera, were VERY easy to pick up, and not only that but I used the 'Showmenu' command that was in NS1 (or whatever that command was to build your own menu) to make my own - and it worked GREAT.
<!--quoteo(post=1734346:date=Oct 28 2009, 08:13 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Oct 28 2009, 08:13 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734346"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Necroquoting here, but I want to point out that Tribes' "V-menu" is so far the single best, most intuitive quick voice-comm system that's ever existed in a game, ever. ... For example, if you wanted to yell at someone to 'DEFEND THE FLAG', you'd hit 'V' to activate the menu. Then you hit 'D' for 'Defend', and then you hit 'F' for 'Flag'. There were other choices in there as well, for example, "<b>D</b>efend our <b>S</b>ensors!" "<b>A</b>ttack the enemy <b>T</b>urrets!" or "<b>N</b>eed a <b>B</b>ombardier!" ... This kept you in control of the camera, were VERY easy to pick up, and not only that but I used the 'Showmenu' command that was in NS1 (or whatever that command was to build your own menu) to make my own - and it worked GREAT.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would be very careful about this setup. If you start nesting too many things, the chain of buttons get too annoying to learn. This is why games like the DotA games are moving everything into a positional hotkey setup. It's much easier to memorize. While letters are easy to associate on paper, your fingers and eyes associate positions much easier and quicker.
However, the concept of modifying specific templates of commands sounds interesting. This gives greater power than just "Move here" where "here" is where the crosshair points, players anywhere can call out attacks or suggestions to any other position on the map. Similar to the system that Endwar recently used for its voice command system.
So, in summary, mouse gestures/radial menus are easier to learn due to our predisposition to oriented motion, but the power of more complicated template commands could be very beneficial.
<!--quoteo(post=1734572:date=Oct 30 2009, 07:00 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Oct 30 2009, 07:00 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1734572"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I would be very careful about this setup. If you start nesting too many things, the chain of buttons get too annoying to learn. This is why games like the DotA games are moving everything into a positional hotkey setup. It's much easier to memorize. While letters are easy to associate on paper, your fingers and eyes associate positions much easier and quicker.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't knock it till you try it. There's a reason Tribes vets absolutely swear by this system. I played Battlefield games for about 6 years and I still find radial menus to be clunky and dumb.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, in summary, mouse gestures/radial menus are easier to learn due to our predisposition to oriented motion, but the power of more complicated template commands could be very beneficial.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Even though I think radial menus are annoying and are more reminiscent of a ###### console idea ported to the PC, I'll say that someone who is well-practiced in it could use it effectively.
However you are dead wrong on mouse gestures. There's absolutely nothing intuitive about them. They're a crappy gimmick and are too unreliable to be put in any game. There's no 'predisposition' towards knowing gestures - they're nothing more than pure memorization. I can't wait to be in need of a medkit and swirl my mouse three times clockwise, rotate 90 degrees, middle click, and draw a zigzag of exactly 30 degree angles and then remember that I was supposed to middle click BEFORE I rotated.
Yes, an exaggeration, but there's not a single aspect of mouse gestures that makes any sense at all, except for the fact that 'you already have a hand on the mouse', meaning you don't really have to change what you're doing to use them. But then again, the V-menu works because you already have one hand on the keyboard, with the most vital commands all within easy reach.
V menu is tried, tested, and there's a reason those who have used it swear by it. 90% of commands are only two keystrokes deep. It works, and it's also completely user-customizable so I don't see why NS should pass it up.
Lockdown Mode - seems very similar to the Heavy MG in Day of Defeat:Source. The MG in DoD:s is very balanced due to deploy/undeploy time and limited angle of fire. UWE should definitely check out this implementation when designing the lockdown.
<!--quoteo(post=1735645:date=Nov 2 2009, 09:32 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2009, 09:32 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735645"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Personally I'd like them to find ways of balancing the game without resorting to bull###### FPS cliches.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Bull###### FPS cliches? What other FPS has a minigun like DoD:S ? Have you even played DoD:S?
<!--quoteo(post=1735657:date=Nov 2 2009, 10:02 PM:name=zex)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (zex @ Nov 2 2009, 10:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735657"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Bull###### FPS cliches? What other FPS has a minigun like DoD:S ? Have you even played DoD:S?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> What you described is pretty standard fare for FPS games. I'm not going to say it should be dismissed entirely just because of that, but I'd rather see some creative, new, or just less realized ideas used besides the 'deploy time / limited turn' (which is dumb, you can just pick up a gun and point it somewhere else...) or in my case the 'minigun with a spinup / spindown time'.
And yeah, Planetside had a lockdown mode, BTW. Complete with deploy time and limited arcs of fire.
<!--quoteo(post=1735665:date=Nov 2 2009, 10:35 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Nov 2 2009, 10:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735665"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->besides the 'deploy time / limited turn' (which is dumb, you can just pick up a gun and point it somewhere else...) And yeah, Planetside had a lockdown mode, BTW. Complete with deploy time and limited arcs of fire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't invent lockdown mode, and because you can name one other game with it doesn't make it an FPS cliche. Its just the most logical way to balance a gun with massive damage and high fire rate.
Also, no, you can't pick up a 75lb belt-fed machine gun and point it somewhere else while firing it, without moving. Limited arcs and deploy time are a simplification of what actually has to happen when firing one of those guns, but they are the best way to depict it in a game.
<!--quoteo(post=1735143:date=Oct 31 2009, 03:02 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Oct 31 2009, 03:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't knock it till you try it. There's a reason Tribes vets absolutely swear by this system. I played Battlefield games for about 6 years and I still find radial menus to be clunky and dumb. ... V menu is tried, tested, and there's a reason those who have used it swear by it. 90% of commands are only two keystrokes deep. It works, and it's also completely user-customizable so I don't see why NS should pass it up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Note that correctly implemented mouse gestures are at most a button and a direction. Doing weird symbols beyond that and it gets hairy as you say.
I have used the V system and I've found hat once I mastered it, it was very nice and one of the best systems I've used. The hard part was taking a bit of time to master it. While radials have their own issues, there is a tendency to be easier to pick them up.
We can move this discussion to another thread though if you'd like to continue. This isn't the place for discussions.
<!--quoteo(post=1735721:date=Nov 3 2009, 01:52 AM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Nov 3 2009, 01:52 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735721"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Note that correctly implemented mouse gestures are at most a button and a direction. Doing weird symbols beyond that and it gets hairy as you say.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's actually more of a radial menu than a mouse gesture, but I guess the lines can be blurred somewhat there.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We can move this discussion to another thread though if you'd like to continue. This isn't the place for discussions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> True.
<!--quoteo(post=1735143:date=Oct 31 2009, 03:02 PM:name=Temphage)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Temphage @ Oct 31 2009, 03:02 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1735143"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't knock it till you try it. There's a reason Tribes vets absolutely swear by this system. I played Battlefield games for about 6 years and I still find radial menus to be clunky and dumb.
Even though I think radial menus are annoying and are more reminiscent of a ###### console idea ported to the PC, I'll say that someone who is well-practiced in it could use it effectively.
However you are dead wrong on mouse gestures. There's absolutely nothing intuitive about them. They're a crappy gimmick and are too unreliable to be put in any game. There's no 'predisposition' towards knowing gestures - they're nothing more than pure memorization. I can't wait to be in need of a medkit and swirl my mouse three times clockwise, rotate 90 degrees, middle click, and draw a zigzag of exactly 30 degree angles and then remember that I was supposed to middle click BEFORE I rotated.
Yes, an exaggeration, but there's not a single aspect of mouse gestures that makes any sense at all, except for the fact that 'you already have a hand on the mouse', meaning you don't really have to change what you're doing to use them. But then again, the V-menu works because you already have one hand on the keyboard, with the most vital commands all within easy reach.
V menu is tried, tested, and there's a reason those who have used it swear by it. 90% of commands are only two keystrokes deep. It works, and it's also completely user-customizable so I don't see why NS should pass it up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Am I to presume that binding keys to commands isn't going to be included in NS2?.. because if it is, your making a mute point with this v menu system. Plus, who is going to want a system that temporarily disables or hinders movement keystrokes (i.e. v then d for defend, which happens to be the universal backup key) on a game like NS? Exactly how do you plan on issuing that command while continually running backwards? Or am I to let go of my mouse and bring my other hand over to stroke a key thats placed out of reach of my hand on the movement keys?.. It's an impractical system. NS gameplay is too fast paced.
Battlefield had several popup menus because of its 'simple' design.
NS1's current popup menu is in essence based on gesturing, as you had to follow a hold gesture (tier menu) release method.
<!--quoteo(post=1736010:date=Nov 4 2009, 04:27 AM:name=brcaswell)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (brcaswell @ Nov 4 2009, 04:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1736010"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Am I to presume that binding keys to commands isn't going to be included in NS2?.. because if it is, your making a mute point with this v menu system. Plus, who is going to want a system that temporarily disables or hinders movement keystrokes (i.e. v then d for defend, which happens to be the universal backup key) on a game like NS? Exactly how do you plan on issuing that command while continually running backwards? Or am I to let go of my mouse and bring my other hand over to stroke a key thats placed out of reach of my hand on the movement keys?.. It's an impractical system. NS gameplay is too fast paced.
Battlefield had several popup menus because of its 'simple' design.
NS1's current popup menu is in essence based on gesturing, as you had to follow a hold gesture (tier menu) release method.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Being unable to see, aim, and fire is a much better alternative.
<!--quoteo(post=1680709:date=Jun 9 2008, 06:43 PM:name=spellman23)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (spellman23 @ Jun 9 2008, 06:43 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1680709"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Maybe I'm just blind, but could you explain what makes this menu so much better? I'm not sure I get how it works from the video.
The radial menu for BF2 is awesome and should be modeled after. My only gripe is you need multiple buttons for the submenus, but that's OK. Layering everything into one menu is NOT a good idea. However, don't cram too many things into the menu or else it will be hard to quickly flick and hit the button you want.
I like locally's idea about evolving to gestures. It's not that the current menu is bad, but it confuses players the first time they see it. Also, quicker activation would help, so you don't have to wait for the next submenu to pop up. Eventually, yes, it would be like a gesture. Of course, gesture recognition is kinda abysmal for now, so I wouldn't invest too heavily in it.
There must be a balance of ease of use, both in speed and accuracy versus being accessible to learning players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i completely disagree with the radial menu idea. Its terrible, takes you away from gameplay, and forces you to move your mouse in directions that isn't aiming at aliens.
Counter-Strikes was the best...hands down. XCV for different commands, then 123456 etc to say something. During a fight, while maneuvering, or doing anything, you can instantly call for help, warn your teammates, etc. It is hands down the best, and simplest system for this kind of mechanic.
guess ill move to the other thread... in fact i think i alraedy posted there. Anyhow...radial menus are the worst idea ever.
Comments
Dead Space has one of the most impressive player UI's ever made (or lack thereof!).
One thing that NS1 did brilliantly was immerse you into the game. Dead Spaces UI does this in a great way. There are no traditional health or ammo meters/gauges.
You have to literally look at your suit or your gun for that information. Anything else that needs to display brings up a real time 3D hologram that your character is looking at with you.
<a href="http://playfuldesign.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/deadspace3.jpg" target="_blank">http://playfuldesign.org/wp-content/upload.../deadspace3.jpg</a>
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6q25GbFBRw" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6q25GbFBRw</a>
Embedding is not working for some reason.
That's pretty much what I thought when I played Dead Space (I didn't manage to get more than 3 or 4 hours in, the game was just so terribly slow paced and boring), they got an A for effort for trying to do something innovative with the user interface, but it got an F in the functionality department.
Whenever you wanted to be able to actually use the pretty interface, you had to position the camera in just the right spot, not an enjoyable task in the "we purposely give you terrible controls" genre (a.k.a. the survival horror genre, where the developers are horrified if anyone manages to survive using the crappy controls <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />)
I could see this working with some sort of "full body awareness" camera. You know the type, where you look down and see your chest/legs/feet if maybe the ammo counter was on the weapon and you could look down at the health/armour meter on the front of the armour. I remember a half done model concept that had a fake health display that sort of stuck out from the front of the armour, I think it was "Nancy" but that thread was gone years ago :-)
there is a game that can do that i think it was Far cry? soz i cant really remember
my point for peeking is that: i for one who is a very sneaky person think that peeking could comes in handy for once that i dont have to put my whole body just to look around the corner and it becomes safer for the marine against the offensive chamber. as for the alien i think it works nicely for the skulk but about other forms i dont really knows.
but i think there will be problem with body's movement for the marine since if use in actual fight might be annoying for the aliens
(what i mean by this is that if the whole body bend to left or right (think about Fight Night round 3 or Round 4 (xbox's boxing game) you are able to sway ur body like that it might becomes annoying for the alien since it might become harder to bite for them) but that depend
you might be able to do like Gear of war or othergames but i think that might be unfair against the alien but it makes the game more realistic but it might cut out the fun.
- just an idea -
cheers for reading
... The Chronicles of Rid*ick: Assault on Dark Athena
Just noticed, that they have some nice visual effects that would also work for NS2.
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Basically they have 3 different vision modes.
First is normal, everything as usal.
While crouching in the dark, vision turns blue to indicate a special stealth mode. I like it how the atmosphere of the room changes immediately. I could imagine something like this as the standard alien view, maybe red, yellow or green instead of blue, and without fully draining all the other colors. There is some barly visible overlay, indicating an eye ball, which you may see at the border of the screen.
Third mode is the nightvision mode typical to rid*ick. Notable here is the dazzling effect when looking into bright lights. Also notice the little timespan when deactivating nightvision, in which you nearly go blind before youre eyes are adapting.
There is some other neat <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U91gVcZtCOU" target="_blank">visual effect</a>,but i can hardly imagine that in NS2. Maybe in terms of scanning for invisible players.
Posting only has one requirement - you have to provide pictures, movies, or sounds; any kind of useful media. It is important that you avoid anything but a tiny bit of text when it comes to explaining things, and avoid debates unless you have something aside from words to prove your point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
One thing that I always thought could have been better in NS was the alien and marine blood splatters. The splatter effect in the first Halo was gorgeous, it almost glowed and in fact did glow from certain beings. There were a few custom blood sprites for the original NS but they are no longer available. A really nice blood splatter adds much to the game, and if it were to emit even a small amount of light to a small area that would be ambiance from hell and back.
Posting only has one requirement - you have to provide pictures, movies, or sounds; any kind of useful media. It is important that you avoid anything but a tiny bit of text when it comes to explaining things, and avoid debates unless you have something aside from words to prove your point.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Flashlight!!!!
The flashlight in NS was useless. I'm sure being that NS2 is going to be in a new engine it will be much better but please pay particular attention to the execution of the flashlight. Even have it so that it will dim after a while, flicker in instances, etc.
Also, I posted in another thread about blood splatters, and that of the aliens glowing when it hits the walls, this would help the visual experience as well in a dark area.
That being said, I don't think that the brightness of the game should be adjustable beyond a certain point. give players the tools to brighten a room rather than exposing the entire map by turning the brightness way up.
... The Chronicles of Rid*ick: Assault on Dark Athena
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Nice video. Glad you brought up the Alien sight topic. I hope UWE does something very cool in that department.
On another note. I feel like I'm seeing a lot of new games with are trying out the FPS/RTS formula. So far I think no retail game comes close to what NS2 is shaping up to, but it worries me that between now and the NS2 release. Some other game comes along to steal the thunder.
On another note. I feel like I'm seeing a lot of new games with are trying out the FPS/RTS formula. So far I think no retail game comes close to what NS2 is shaping up to, but it worries me that between now and the NS2 release. Some other game comes along to steal the thunder.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you're referring to Raven Squad, don't hold your breath.
Dead Space is a very slow-paced horror game in 3rd person.
All of the game half your screen gets covered by the hero's ###### BACK - which, of course, works very well in a horror game as your view gets limited and you get a feeling of not being in control because you can't see "everything" that could be seen. Your immediate reaction to this is frantic turnings to cover that black spot in your view.
How, at any rate can this help a marine in 1st person? It's like running into a combat zone with a blindfold on.
Btw, the same goes for Resident Evil 5 - which, surprise, surprise, is another Horror game.
I guess I can throw away half my Monitor from now on.
Implemented in: <a href="http://code.google.com/p/circular-application-menu/" target="_blank">http://code.google.com/p/circular-application-menu/</a> (videos and screenshots in the link inside)
circular-application-menu - A circular-application-menu (C-A-M) representation for the GNOME desktop.
Dunno what you guys are doing in the new game, but in case you are still researching and polishing, something that would be better in perspective to HLNS, unless badly implemented, is a pie menu:
<img src="http://circular-application-menu.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/images/one.png" border="0" class="linked-image" />
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What: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_gesture" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mouse_gesture</a>
Implemented in: <a href="http://optimoz.mozdev.org/gestures/" target="_blank">http://optimoz.mozdev.org/gestures/</a> (example screenshots in the link inside)
<i>Mouse Gestures are a fast way to execute commands without using the keyboard, menus or tool-bars. Instead, the user holds down a mouse button (usually the right one), moves the mouse in a certain way to form a gesture, then releases the mouse button.</i>
I remember that late in the game, after a degree of learning, I just had stopped picking things in a menu and was doing more of a mouse gesture, because of how fast we had to it.
Losing control of the camera to choose something on the menu, even for 1 / 2 of a second is something we do not want.
Why not make it so that more experienced users could choose instead of the menu, the option to use mouse gestures.
Mouse gestures might be nice, but I'm unsure what you'd use them on besides the pop-up menu for upgrades. However, many people are a fan of the mouse gestures if we have a similar menu system, so could totally work.
Basically, make the menu UI intuitive and awesome. Good ideas.
the peeps in L4D auto talk, and it is GREAT!!!! "Smoker! Boomer over here! Pills here!" "ah, Im hurt." Stuff like that they auto say and it is GREAT!
swatting a JP out of the air = "catch you latter"
Think of all the cool custom taunt packs...
PS. any thing out of James bond could work.
PPS. What sarge has to say on one liners and shotguns.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSR42idDczI" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSR42idDczI</a>
The Battlefield 2 Pop-up Menu was easier to use and more intuitive than NS's because every option was immediately selectable. No nested node tree, no complicated navigation, and no trying to remember if "Weld Me" was an Order, Request or Saying.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Necroquoting here, but I want to point out that Tribes' "V-menu" is so far the single best, most intuitive quick voice-comm system that's ever existed in a game, ever.
In order to use the Battlefield radial menu quickly (I'll take this moment to point out that radial menus SUCK COMPLETELY) you had to memorize where the locations of what you wanted was in relation to the center of the screen. Then you had to hope or pray that your mousing wasn't off and you just asked for the commander to give you an enema.
Tribes' "V-menu" (probably been mentioned somewhere in this thread I'm sure) was completely based on what made sense (well, mostly).
For example, if you wanted to yell at someone to 'DEFEND THE FLAG', you'd hit 'V' to activate the menu. Then you hit 'D' for 'Defend', and then you hit 'F' for 'Flag'. There were other choices in there as well, for example, "<b>D</b>efend our <b>S</b>ensors!" "<b>A</b>ttack the enemy <b>T</b>urrets!" or "<b>N</b>eed a <b>B</b>ombardier!"
This kept you in control of the camera, were VERY easy to pick up, and not only that but I used the 'Showmenu' command that was in NS1 (or whatever that command was to build your own menu) to make my own - and it worked GREAT.
Absolutely no radial menus or mouse gestures.
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For example, if you wanted to yell at someone to 'DEFEND THE FLAG', you'd hit 'V' to activate the menu. Then you hit 'D' for 'Defend', and then you hit 'F' for 'Flag'. There were other choices in there as well, for example, "<b>D</b>efend our <b>S</b>ensors!" "<b>A</b>ttack the enemy <b>T</b>urrets!" or "<b>N</b>eed a <b>B</b>ombardier!"
...
This kept you in control of the camera, were VERY easy to pick up, and not only that but I used the 'Showmenu' command that was in NS1 (or whatever that command was to build your own menu) to make my own - and it worked GREAT.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would be very careful about this setup. If you start nesting too many things, the chain of buttons get too annoying to learn. This is why games like the DotA games are moving everything into a positional hotkey setup. It's much easier to memorize. While letters are easy to associate on paper, your fingers and eyes associate positions much easier and quicker.
However, the concept of modifying specific templates of commands sounds interesting. This gives greater power than just "Move here" where "here" is where the crosshair points, players anywhere can call out attacks or suggestions to any other position on the map. Similar to the system that Endwar recently used for its voice command system.
So, in summary, mouse gestures/radial menus are easier to learn due to our predisposition to oriented motion, but the power of more complicated template commands could be very beneficial.
Don't knock it till you try it. There's a reason Tribes vets absolutely swear by this system. I played Battlefield games for about 6 years and I still find radial menus to be clunky and dumb.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So, in summary, mouse gestures/radial menus are easier to learn due to our predisposition to oriented motion, but the power of more complicated template commands could be very beneficial.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even though I think radial menus are annoying and are more reminiscent of a ###### console idea ported to the PC, I'll say that someone who is well-practiced in it could use it effectively.
However you are dead wrong on mouse gestures. There's absolutely nothing intuitive about them. They're a crappy gimmick and are too unreliable to be put in any game. There's no 'predisposition' towards knowing gestures - they're nothing more than pure memorization. I can't wait to be in need of a medkit and swirl my mouse three times clockwise, rotate 90 degrees, middle click, and draw a zigzag of exactly 30 degree angles and then remember that I was supposed to middle click BEFORE I rotated.
Yes, an exaggeration, but there's not a single aspect of mouse gestures that makes any sense at all, except for the fact that 'you already have a hand on the mouse', meaning you don't really have to change what you're doing to use them. But then again, the V-menu works because you already have one hand on the keyboard, with the most vital commands all within easy reach.
V menu is tried, tested, and there's a reason those who have used it swear by it. 90% of commands are only two keystrokes deep. It works, and it's also completely user-customizable so I don't see why NS should pass it up.
Like miniguns having spinup / spindown times... stop it. This has NEVER existed in real life.
Bull###### FPS cliches? What other FPS has a minigun like DoD:S ? Have you even played DoD:S?
What you described is pretty standard fare for FPS games. I'm not going to say it should be dismissed entirely just because of that, but I'd rather see some creative, new, or just less realized ideas used besides the 'deploy time / limited turn' (which is dumb, you can just pick up a gun and point it somewhere else...) or in my case the 'minigun with a spinup / spindown time'.
And yeah, Planetside had a lockdown mode, BTW. Complete with deploy time and limited arcs of fire.
And yeah, Planetside had a lockdown mode, BTW. Complete with deploy time and limited arcs of fire.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I didn't invent lockdown mode, and because you can name one other game with it doesn't make it an FPS cliche. Its just the most logical way to balance a gun with massive damage and high fire rate.
Also, no, you can't pick up a 75lb belt-fed machine gun and point it somewhere else while firing it, without moving. Limited arcs and deploy time are a simplification of what actually has to happen when firing one of those guns, but they are the best way to depict it in a game.
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V menu is tried, tested, and there's a reason those who have used it swear by it. 90% of commands are only two keystrokes deep. It works, and it's also completely user-customizable so I don't see why NS should pass it up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Note that correctly implemented mouse gestures are at most a button and a direction. Doing weird symbols beyond that and it gets hairy as you say.
I have used the V system and I've found hat once I mastered it, it was very nice and one of the best systems I've used. The hard part was taking a bit of time to master it. While radials have their own issues, there is a tendency to be easier to pick them up.
We can move this discussion to another thread though if you'd like to continue. This isn't the place for discussions.
That's actually more of a radial menu than a mouse gesture, but I guess the lines can be blurred somewhat there.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->We can move this discussion to another thread though if you'd like to continue. This isn't the place for discussions.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True.
Even though I think radial menus are annoying and are more reminiscent of a ###### console idea ported to the PC, I'll say that someone who is well-practiced in it could use it effectively.
However you are dead wrong on mouse gestures. There's absolutely nothing intuitive about them. They're a crappy gimmick and are too unreliable to be put in any game. There's no 'predisposition' towards knowing gestures - they're nothing more than pure memorization. I can't wait to be in need of a medkit and swirl my mouse three times clockwise, rotate 90 degrees, middle click, and draw a zigzag of exactly 30 degree angles and then remember that I was supposed to middle click BEFORE I rotated.
Yes, an exaggeration, but there's not a single aspect of mouse gestures that makes any sense at all, except for the fact that 'you already have a hand on the mouse', meaning you don't really have to change what you're doing to use them. But then again, the V-menu works because you already have one hand on the keyboard, with the most vital commands all within easy reach.
V menu is tried, tested, and there's a reason those who have used it swear by it. 90% of commands are only two keystrokes deep. It works, and it's also completely user-customizable so I don't see why NS should pass it up.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Am I to presume that binding keys to commands isn't going to be included in NS2?.. because if it is, your making a mute point with this v menu system. Plus, who is going to want a system that temporarily disables or hinders movement keystrokes (i.e. v then d for defend, which happens to be the universal backup key) on a game like NS? Exactly how do you plan on issuing that command while continually running backwards? Or am I to let go of my mouse and bring my other hand over to stroke a key thats placed out of reach of my hand on the movement keys?.. It's an impractical system. NS gameplay is too fast paced.
Battlefield had several popup menus because of its 'simple' design.
NS1's current popup menu is in essence based on gesturing, as you had to follow a hold gesture (tier menu) release method.
Battlefield had several popup menus because of its 'simple' design.
NS1's current popup menu is in essence based on gesturing, as you had to follow a hold gesture (tier menu) release method.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Being unable to see, aim, and fire is a much better alternative.
The radial menu for BF2 is awesome and should be modeled after. My only gripe is you need multiple buttons for the submenus, but that's OK. Layering everything into one menu is NOT a good idea. However, don't cram too many things into the menu or else it will be hard to quickly flick and hit the button you want.
I like locally's idea about evolving to gestures. It's not that the current menu is bad, but it confuses players the first time they see it. Also, quicker activation would help, so you don't have to wait for the next submenu to pop up. Eventually, yes, it would be like a gesture. Of course, gesture recognition is kinda abysmal for now, so I wouldn't invest too heavily in it.
There must be a balance of ease of use, both in speed and accuracy versus being accessible to learning players.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i completely disagree with the radial menu idea. Its terrible, takes you away from gameplay, and forces you to move your mouse in directions that isn't aiming at aliens.
Counter-Strikes was the best...hands down. XCV for different commands, then 123456 etc to say something. During a fight, while maneuvering, or doing anything, you can instantly call for help, warn your teammates, etc. It is hands down the best, and simplest system for this kind of mechanic.
guess ill move to the other thread... in fact i think i alraedy posted there. Anyhow...radial menus are the worst idea ever.