locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
There are lots of cool ideas being discussed here. Hooray, a topic not full of flame!
WRT the rage meter, we seem to be running into two different philosophies. Either the onos should be a glass cannon like the rest of the kharaa team, or it should be the antithesis, a wrecking ball like it is now. At the risk of inciting a flame war, here are some things that come to my mind when asking which is the better approach: What is the onos now? <ul><li>The onos is a wrecking ball, but not against groups of players</li><li>It is powerful early to mid game(hence why it is often discouraged in games of less than 5v5)</li><li>It is only achievable at the highest level of res expenditure.</li><li>It is easy to "not die" as an onos(barring jetpacks), but hard to do effective damage due to speed.</li></ul> How does this affect competitive play? Theoretically, it should be a desirable unit because it helps end the game quicker when there is a distinct res advantage, but because of the speed imposed "damage cap" it's just not worth the res. Theoretically, the removal of the phase gate could make the onos desirable again as a base wrecker, but the gorge is even better in many situations, and costs much less. How does this affect casual play? It feels "unfair" because it's supposed to be hard to kill and unbalanced until late game when hmg and/or jetpacks are available. How does this affect the learning curve? It doesn't much because it's such a late game/hard to achieve unit, but it has a relatively shallow learning curve.
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
edited April 2009
Ah the onos, in the latter versionswith the fixed hitbox and all that, it just didnt really work great,. It was a huge investment, and it would just die too easily for being clumsy.
I would cut the scale of the onos in half in NS2, up the speed of it and cut the res needed to 50. Slaying an onos would still be somewhat significant, but not a "game's over" for aliens if it's early in the game. With the hitbox decreased and speed upped it's HP would need to be decreased but I propose a sort of "enrage" mechanism so it would gain speed and dmg the more it is hurt. Imagine a onos at low health with 1,5 the speed of an adrenaline skulk at it's maximum with a motion blurring ghost following it. With this suggestion the onos would serve more as a improved skulk than it would instigate an entirely new role. Something that would clearly outclass the skulk in any way but be limited by resources.
The spd/dmg effect would be alittle at start then ramp exponentially until you are at very low health.
I think it's still nice that we've got one heavy duty lifeform that doesn't rely that much on movement skill. However, the present res/tech model doesn't really support that. Most of the game turning events happen before 75 res and the res peak system means that you're practically taking one more important slot away by going onos.
I don't know if the onos could be made more challenging to the game sense while still keeping it relatively simple by it's movement mechanics and speed. At that point it could be more powerful at best, but still avoid being completely imbalanced on some cases.
A few random thoughs, these probably aren't viable at all, but someone might get new ideas based on these.
- Adren management. The onos could have a plenty of adren related stuff. It can have boosts in it's innate regen on full adren or gain more adren on low hp. Basically good players could make decisions on whether it's smart to empty the whole adren quickly or play conservatively. On present game a cele battle gorge does a little similar job: You'll want to do damage by spitting, keep your HP high and heal your teammates on very limited adren amounts. At that point you're making decisions between innate regen, self heal, spitting, meat shielding and such.
- Momentum. Make onos accelrate by long steps, maybe even make it cost adren. For example +movement could be used a little like lerk flapping, except on ground. The more you spam the key, the more accelration you get. At that point it boils down to predicting situations and marines adapting after they see the onos speeding up.
Ok, what if we swapped Charge and Stomp? Make Stomp a game-wrecking three hive ability that would end any team without jetpack support, and make Charge the Onos' mid-game utility move. To do this, Charge would have to be buffed a bit -- the movement speed boost is already very good, but add a bit of knockback and give the Onos like 25% damage reduction as long as charge is active or something. As soon as he runs out of energy and stops charging, he loses the damage reduction. That allows him to still serve a tanking role without needing the ability to disable large groups of marines, which has always been a really weird ability for a tank-unit to have.
Maybe if he did get some sort of damage mitigation bonus during the charge, how about a reduced speed after the charge has expired? This would make it a powerful ability but make the timing crucial.
I think devour and stomp pretty much cement the Onos rep as a marine killer.
Devour the lead marine, stomp the rest, repeat.
Stomped marines can be spam stomped, chipped at by *anything*, and devouring deprives the enemy of weapons they've paid good res for. Other uses are for simple minibase breaking - Onos to distract turret while others take down priority targets.
Obviously in clan play, are bets are off because (at least last I was aware) the game is largely dominated by the Fades.
Now that NS2 appears to be giving effective approval for minibases (what with the whole power node concept) I would suspect the Onos to be more heavily involved in breaking up the defenses. It's a brute force tank class. Ideally I'd like to see them implement stronger knockback for marines *and* turrets (not necessarily factories,etc) to really reflect the juggernaut nature of the beast.
Old Onos got stuck on skulks, steps, LA, turrets, you name it. New Onos should be able to barge through whatever it likes, up to an appropriate weight class.
TBH I'm the sort of person who would put a *lot* more weldables in maps and flag the Onos and Gorge as the barricade breakers. Gorge bile bombs for the slow corrosive method that could be countered by welding, Onos for the fast dramatic method of outright destroying the barricade.
The fact that the onos is relatively less skillful as the highest lifeform is an important team balancing mechanic. If the onos' agility was increased, like people are suggesting, then the potential power of a single skillful player would be overwhelming.
A slow, strong, powerful, 'dumb' unit is exactly what the onos needs to be as the highest lifeform.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1709261:date=Jun 1 2009, 04:11 PM:name=homicide)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (homicide @ Jun 1 2009, 04:11 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1709261"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The fact that the onos is relatively less skillful as the highest lifeform is an important team balancing mechanic. If the onos' agility was increased, like people are suggesting, then the potential power of a single skillful player would be overwhelming.
A slow, strong, powerful, 'dumb' unit is exactly what the onos needs to be as the highest lifeform.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> While that's the theory, the problem is it doesn't work that way in practice. You just don't see onos until the game is all ready decided so its learning curve is irrelevant. And because it lacks in damage output compared to the fade, it just isn't used as much.
<!--quoteo(post=1709272:date=Jun 1 2009, 12:51 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Jun 1 2009, 12:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1709272"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->While that's the theory, the problem is it doesn't work that way in practice. You just don't see onos until the game is all ready decided so its learning curve is irrelevant. And because it lacks in damage output compared to the fade, it just isn't used as much.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wrong, it works exactly that way. Onos show up as much as they should... and decide plenty of games. Lerks also don't show up as much as gorges, that's kinda the point of tiered lifeforms. The learning curve is extremely relevant.
<b>Onos gets HP back for dealing damage</b> (vampiric attacks).
I think it would have quite desirable effect - Onos would become more agressive, because so long as it's doing damage (let's say just to marines), it's regains health. As a consuequence, marines would be discouraged to bunch together, and a charging Onos would scatter them around... where they're being taken care of by lesser aliens. Marines close to each other = easy for onos to heal, because it doesn't have to travel far from one meal to another. I think Onos shouldn't drain life from buildings, not just unthematic but could make Onos unstoppable in base sieges. Alternatively, the amount of health drained from buildings would be lower.
You can justify good gameplay (which I think this would be) any way you want. For example Onos gets a huge adrenaline rush from doing damage, making it survive longer than it would otherwise do.
<!--quoteo(post=1712152:date=Jun 13 2009, 12:50 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jun 13 2009, 12:50 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...And this adrenaline energizes the bacteria to work its healing magic much faster! Excellent!<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, yes...
While I appreciate realism in fantasy and SF settings, you can only go so far before you run into sticky realism problems. Did you know how they keep elephants from escaping in zoos ? They don't use fences, they use ... dry moats. A moat 1/2 m deep is enough to keep the animal inside. He knows damn well he would break his bones from falling 1/2 m. Not only are elephants unable to jump, but they're extremely vulnerable to injury from falling. Similarly gorillas - while strong and impressive, are actually quite fragile in some regards. Their spines have to endure much more pressure than is the case with smaller animals. They're much more vulnerable to impacts.
Some stuff (like physics) you can't just ignore. You can't just enlarge a spider, human, or a mouse 50 times and expect it to 'work'. Some shapes are better suited for small animals, and some for bigger ones. Roughly speaking, the materials which can be used for building bodies are the same for both mouse and elephant. Weight to durability ratio stays the same. If this sounds even slightly interesting to you, I recommend a highly entertaining article:
<b>The Biology of B-Movie Monsters</b> <a href="http://fathom.lib.uchicago.edu/2/21701757/" target="_blank">http://fathom.lib.uchicago.edu/2/21701757/</a>
While I appreciate realism in fantasy and SF settings, you can only go so far before you run into sticky realism problems. Did you know how they keep elephants from escaping in zoos ? They don't use fences, they use ... dry moats. A moat 1/2 m deep is enough to keep the animal inside. He knows damn well he would break his bones from falling 1/2 m. Not only are elephants unable to jump, but they're extremely vulnerable to injury from falling. Similarly gorillas - while strong and impressive, are actually quite fragile in some regards. Their spines have to endure much more pressure than is the case with smaller animals. They're much more vulnerable to impacts.
Some stuff (like physics) you can't just ignore. You can't just enlarge a spider, human, or a mouse 50 times and expect it to 'work'. Some shapes are better suited for small animals, and some for bigger ones. Roughly speaking, the materials which can be used for building bodies are the same for both mouse and elephant. Weight to durability ratio stays the same. If this sounds even slightly interesting to you, I recommend a highly entertaining article:
<b>The Biology of B-Movie Monsters</b> <a href="http://fathom.lib.uchicago.edu/2/21701757/" target="_blank">http://fathom.lib.uchicago.edu/2/21701757/</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They're aliens! You can do whatever you want with them. For all we know, their home planet might have 10G gravity or even 100g so that they can withstand huge impacts from falling.
Honestly, I think UW should consider going the starcraft 2 route and make gore an aoe slash like they did with the ultralisk. Something that big should not be limited to attacking single targets.
First I just like to say quick that I like the idea of gore being able to mutlipule grouped up marines (about 45 degree spread maybe, not 90 or 120 or anything insane like that - it's a forward stab motion not a slash) at once.
But the reason I'm really posting, in all these dicussions everyone's suggestions seem to be about NS1. Now whilst it's perfectly possible that Charlie's changed his mind on the game design front, it's been said that adrenline may very well be going to work differently, with each ability having it's own adrenline bar. So a bit more like an ability cool down than we have now. That one was definately stated in blogs. Also, I don't remember it being explicitly said that alt fire was for marine weapons only, whilst I think that was what was meant, there's a chance abilities might be getting an 'alt fire' too. Like I said don't think that's what they are up to but you've got to keep an open mind. ;D
Now i know this could end up breaking ALOT of things it certainly sounds fun to rearange the marine base with a charge. It also would help greatly to make the onos feel more like a huge massive tank if it doesn't have to jump and crouch around to get trough a few tiny turrets.
Instead it would push the turrets just out of it's way, not by much but enough so you can just charge your way trough to your target without getting stuck constantly on small marine structures.
And totaly against removing the onos or devour. Maybe adding something not to drastic to do for marines while beeing diggested (how about giving marines a pen so they can write messages into the stomage for the next marine? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />) but for me even that isn't required. After all these years of playing NS i just got the patiente to sit trough it.
Devour is what makes Onos a timid hit&run creature. Unless you <i>want</i> Onos to specialise in hit&run, devour should be either removed or changed in such way that it requires Onos to stop for a several seconds. That way it would work well against isolated marines.
<!--quoteo(post=1712270:date=Jun 14 2009, 09:19 AM:name=oblivion is at hand)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (oblivion is at hand @ Jun 14 2009, 09:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712270"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Honestly, I think UW should consider going the starcraft 2 route and make gore an aoe slash like they did with the ultralisk. Something that big should not be limited to attacking single targets.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Alternatively, they could give the Onos a flat damage reduction, so that LMGs wouldn't deal much damage, while SGs and HMGs would do more, just like Ultralisks.
I think the Onos is kinda hard to balance as a base buster because anything with enough HP to directly assault a entrenched position is going to be hell to deal with on the field. Personally, I think perhaps it should be given even more HP, but have its mobility reduced - that way it still allows aliens to concentrate a lot of power in one area, but doesn't give too much map control.
<!--quoteo(post=1712310:date=Jun 15 2009, 02:05 AM:name=borsuk)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (borsuk @ Jun 15 2009, 02:05 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712310"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Devour is what makes Onos a timid hit&run creature. Unless you <i>want</i> Onos to specialise in hit&run, devour should be either removed or changed in such way that it requires Onos to stop for a several seconds. That way it would work well against isolated marines.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Every higher lifeform is an hit&run creature because of the res cost involved and the ranged vs meele combat. The onos should be no exception to a certain degree. Making the onos a pure "roar go in and crush, retreat is for the weak" class would do 2 things:
1. Possibly overpower it. 2. Remove most of the allready low skillcap.
And i don't see the point in making the onos strong vs "isolated marines". The onos is the big huge thing where everybody involved gets scared if not a ton of HMG's or shotguns are involved. And even right now it does it's job pretty good. Skulks, Lerks, Fades these are the lifeforms that are good for taking out isolated marines. The onos is your raw meatshield that stops groups of marines from moving on by simply beeing there.
Devour is a good mechanic the way it works right now, if you apply handicaps like "uh can't move after you have eaten a marine" the onos becomes useless in it's current role: breaking up heavy trains. Devour is used to remove expensive equipment from a group of marines, that doesn't work if the onos suddenly goes stationary as soon as it eats somebody. All that will do is turn devour in some lame griefing move where people will start eating ninjas/rambos/single marines which they could just gore in a few seconds.
Btw that's something i've seen mentioned not often enough: Devour as means to remove expensive marine equipment. Everybody knows these rounds where marines are turtled up in their base with HMG's/GL's and the round drags forever. Devour is a counter to that for the simple reason that you can remove these weapons from the base so marines don't just pick them up again and end up with a team full of HMG's after holding out long enough with their single base RT.
The onos is extremely powerful, despite what those of you say to the contrary. While it's true that a team of marines following in hot pursuit of a wounded onos would likely kill it, you forget that it's a TEAM which downed it, not a single marine. If the same number of onos fought the same number of vanilla marines, it'd be an pwn fest. With devour, even the same number of heavy marines can be easily taken down with decent tactics. Of course it's correct this way, and I'm allowed to think so because the resource cost of being an onos is a bit higher than the resource cost of being a HA with an HMG. In most instances I've observed, two veteran oni are pretty much invincible. Only factor which plays in is how much damage they can inflict before they're forced to retreat and recover.
I think they've more than earned their right being in NS2 (also considering the marketing appeal to playing a game in which you can play as a huge "elephant with teeth" type creature). If I could change anything I'd remove devour and boost any ability which encourages head on fighting (as opposed to hit and run). I like the idea of charge but I think it's strength should be damage and its weakness should be one's ease to move out of its way. By that I mean that charge should allow the onos to make great bursts of speed and inflict damage equal to the speed in which it collides with the marine (perhaps slowing down the onos as a consequence meaning lesser damage for each marine after the first), but make it so that the onos cannot change direction easily. Onos can change direction but at a low pace once he's started (a rhino cannot change direction mid-charge can he?). It would make the onos into a tank particularly useful in places in which there are tight corners or merely as a distraction for marines in open spaces causing them to disperse while your team can infiltrate the room from behind you.
I also liked locallyunscene's idea for the Meat Shield. Think trying to pwn an onos head-on should never be a bright idea both offensively and defensively, so you'd find most players trying to run or get out of the way at least from an onos in charge (like to see that in-game.. bet it'd be a riot).
<!--quoteo(post=1712366:date=Jun 15 2009, 04:51 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Jun 15 2009, 04:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712366"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Every higher lifeform is an hit&run creature because of the res cost involved and the ranged vs meele combat. The onos should be no exception to a certain degree.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You don't have to look very far to see that an expensive lifeform which is not mostly hit&run is possible. Heavy armour marine. It's not a lifeform in the strict sense, but it doesn't matter. When the biggest, dumbest, strongest alien is mostly used for hit&run, and attacks 1 marine at most (devour), one can't help but notice something is horribly broken.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Making the onos a pure "roar go in and crush, retreat is for the weak" class would do 2 things:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
3. Strawman You put words into my mouth. It does not have to be 'no retreat'. It would be sufficient if Onos had to retreat after facing major opposition and taking significant damage. As for skill cap, you seem to imply that the only way to show skill is by running away. This is not so - players could distinguish themselves by being good damage dealers. It doesn't matter if onos dies in an attack if it deals crippling damage. It's enough to make onos cost-effecitve, not immortal. If an area is too heavily fortified to attack, just don't attack and organize some backup. Attack somewhere else. For marines the challenge could be not to scare Onos away and/or shoot it in the back while it's retreating, but to minimize damage dealt, and launch a counterattack. Big, slow and stupid units are notoriously bad in multiplayer games, especially where player assumes the role of something big and stupid. They re too inflexible. You can't count on your enemies making mistakes.
I think there are ways to make Onos good at frontal attacks without without reducing skill potential. For example give Onos very good frontal armour. A good Onos player would learn to play in such a way as to face enemies frontally most of the time, don't expose flanks or back.
Personally I would just remove Onos from the game and replace it with something else. Something smaller and more flexible. 50% bigger than a fade. Something as big, slow and inflexible as Onos is going to be a nightmare to balance.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Devour is a good mechanic the way it works right now, if you apply handicaps like "uh can't move after you have eaten a marine" the onos becomes useless in it's current role: breaking up heavy trains.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, strawman. Just because I'm criticizing devour doesn't mean I want Onos to be bad at everything else. It's not mutually exclusive. Onos could completely pwn isolated marines, even those in heavy armour, and do good job at frontal attacks. But there's a problem if hit&run is the best Onos can do.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Devour is used to remove expensive equipment from a group of marines, that doesn't work if the onos suddenly goes stationary as soon as it eats somebody. All that will do is turn devour in some lame griefing move where people will start eating ninjas/rambos/single marines which they could just gore in a few seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You provide more argumentation for removing devour completely. Something as big and strong as Onos used for surgical strikes and attrition attacks.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Btw that's something i've seen mentioned not often enough: Devour as means to remove expensive marine equipment. Everybody knows these rounds where marines are turtled up in their base with HMG's/GL's and the round drags forever. Devour is a counter to that for the simple reason that you can remove these weapons from the base so marines don't just pick them up again and end up with a team full of HMG's after holding out long enough with their single base RT.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If that's the problem, Onos (or something else) could be made like Spell of Mastery from Master of Magic: overpowered by design, game-ending, but also prohibitively expensive. Say, make Onos cost 200 resources but completely obliterate everything in its path. If marines are down to a single RT for a long time, then the game <i>should</i> end, no ? I can understand assymetry and not giving aliens good siege weapons, but if it leads to games dragging on forever (Tremulous - often 60 minute matches... if someone doesn't sabotage human team first), then perhaps aliens should be given very strong very late very expensive siege weaponry ?
How much res can Aliens carry? is it still capped at 100? I don't know. Also, the Onos is pretty much a left over with no real role at all.
Back in the days of 1.04 you had to play a gorge long -and well- enough to bring up the two other hives and still save up 100 res. but then, you could have all the fun in the world and see the marines ragequit while you waste them all over the place.
But the Game Design got seriously altered, anyone can go any class now as long as there is enough res. That changed a lot of Things, some not to the better.
I think you assume there's no role for the onos because either you presume that an onos should be an invicible tank meant to take lots of hits or because you presume an onos to be inflexible due to being big and slow. I think you presume too much, frankly. A big slow tank is what it personifies, but for players that use it well, it's persistent pressure demanding intervention or otherwise risk to lose defended areas. I think it's generally unwise to oversimplify the role of the onos as your ability to play that class well is only as good as how on the mark your preconceived conception of that class really is. By that I mean if you presume it's an inflexible slow tank, either I'd never use it or I'd use it for precisely being a inflexible slow tank, which depending on the map can be more useful at times than others. Point is, you'd never consider evolving to onos (or you'd always consider evolving to onos depending) even in moments in which it would truly be more effective than a fade.
If a fade is made to always be more effective than the onos, then there's something fundamentally wrong about game balance. I think NS started off well in this sense, but it got to be where the effectiveness of a highly skilled fade player is better than that of a highly skilled onos player largely due to its blink ability. It meant most veteran players favor fade over onos. If I could put my sayso in one change in Natural Selection 2 it would be to not just make classes easy to learn difficult to master, but also that a master player for any given class is only as effective as its resource cost.
Unfortunately I think speed is a concept which can be incredibly advantageous for skilled players and as such, only way for onos to be balanced in natural selection 2 is if onos were NOT the superior higher lifeform available or if the onos was allowed to move very fast.
<!--quoteo(post=1712320:date=Jun 15 2009, 02:27 AM:name=Underwhelmed)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Underwhelmed @ Jun 15 2009, 02:27 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712320"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I think the Onos is kinda hard to balance as a base buster because anything with enough HP to directly assault a entrenched position is going to be hell to deal with on the field. Personally, I think perhaps it should be given even more HP, but have its mobility reduced - that way it still allows aliens to concentrate a lot of power in one area, but doesn't give too much map control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The difficulty there is how to keep onos interesting if you're spending most of your time walking around on empty map areas. If the entertainment value somehow stays up, it's a good alternative at least.
<!--quoteo(post=1712668:date=Jun 17 2009, 09:19 AM:name=Hawkeye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawkeye @ Jun 17 2009, 09:19 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a fade is made to always be more effective than the onos, then there's something fundamentally wrong about game balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Infantry in a modern army aren't more effective than tanks, but they are more frequently useful. Tanks project insane amounts of power, but they have limited utility, along streets, in open areas, and for breaking enemy lines. When you're stuck fighting the enemy for every room and hallway, a tank isn't going to be significantly more useful than infantry, but they can certainly help in many cases. Onos aren't able to take down a base by themselves in NS, but if you have onos on your team it makes it a lot easier. It is a conditional unit. That doesn't make it useless or less effective. In a modern army you need infantry to do anything; in NS you need fades.
Tanks are also much more expensive than infantry--say a tank costs as much as outfitting 30 infantry, you can't just send one tank up to take down 30 enemies. They'd take it down instantly with rockets and bombs. A tank with supporting friendly infantry is much more capable. They can cover it, and it covers them. Same dynamic in NS.
Comments
WRT the rage meter, we seem to be running into two different philosophies. Either the onos should be a glass cannon like the rest of the kharaa team, or it should be the antithesis, a wrecking ball like it is now.
At the risk of inciting a flame war, here are some things that come to my mind when asking which is the better approach:
What is the onos now?
<ul><li>The onos is a wrecking ball, but not against groups of players</li><li>It is powerful early to mid game(hence why it is often discouraged in games of less than 5v5)</li><li>It is only achievable at the highest level of res expenditure.</li><li>It is easy to "not die" as an onos(barring jetpacks), but hard to do effective damage due to speed.</li></ul>
How does this affect competitive play?
Theoretically, it should be a desirable unit because it helps end the game quicker when there is a distinct res advantage, but because of the speed imposed "damage cap" it's just not worth the res. Theoretically, the removal of the phase gate could make the onos desirable again as a base wrecker, but the gorge is even better in many situations, and costs much less.
How does this affect casual play?
It feels "unfair" because it's supposed to be hard to kill and unbalanced until late game when hmg and/or jetpacks are available.
How does this affect the learning curve?
It doesn't much because it's such a late game/hard to achieve unit, but it has a relatively shallow learning curve.
I would cut the scale of the onos in half in NS2, up the speed of it and cut the res needed to 50. Slaying an onos would still be somewhat significant, but not a "game's over" for aliens if it's early in the game. With the hitbox decreased and speed upped it's HP would need to be decreased but I propose a sort of "enrage" mechanism so it would gain speed and dmg the more it is hurt. Imagine a onos at low health with 1,5 the speed of an adrenaline skulk at it's maximum with a motion blurring ghost following it. With this suggestion the onos would serve more as a improved skulk than it would instigate an entirely new role. Something that would clearly outclass the skulk in any way but be limited by resources.
The spd/dmg effect would be alittle at start then ramp exponentially until you are at very low health.
I don't know if the onos could be made more challenging to the game sense while still keeping it relatively simple by it's movement mechanics and speed. At that point it could be more powerful at best, but still avoid being completely imbalanced on some cases.
A few random thoughs, these probably aren't viable at all, but someone might get new ideas based on these.
- Adren management. The onos could have a plenty of adren related stuff. It can have boosts in it's innate regen on full adren or gain more adren on low hp. Basically good players could make decisions on whether it's smart to empty the whole adren quickly or play conservatively. On present game a cele battle gorge does a little similar job: You'll want to do damage by spitting, keep your HP high and heal your teammates on very limited adren amounts. At that point you're making decisions between innate regen, self heal, spitting, meat shielding and such.
- Momentum. Make onos accelrate by long steps, maybe even make it cost adren. For example +movement could be used a little like lerk flapping, except on ground. The more you spam the key, the more accelration you get. At that point it boils down to predicting situations and marines adapting after they see the onos speeding up.
Devour the lead marine, stomp the rest, repeat.
Stomped marines can be spam stomped, chipped at by *anything*, and devouring deprives the enemy of weapons they've paid good res for. Other uses are for simple minibase breaking - Onos to distract turret while others take down priority targets.
Obviously in clan play, are bets are off because (at least last I was aware) the game is largely dominated by the Fades.
Now that NS2 appears to be giving effective approval for minibases (what with the whole power node concept) I would suspect the Onos to be more heavily involved in breaking up the defenses. It's a brute force tank class. Ideally I'd like to see them implement stronger knockback for marines *and* turrets (not necessarily factories,etc) to really reflect the juggernaut nature of the beast.
Old Onos got stuck on skulks, steps, LA, turrets, you name it. New Onos should be able to barge through whatever it likes, up to an appropriate weight class.
TBH I'm the sort of person who would put a *lot* more weldables in maps and flag the Onos and Gorge as the barricade breakers. Gorge bile bombs for the slow corrosive method that could be countered by welding, Onos for the fast dramatic method of outright destroying the barricade.
A slow, strong, powerful, 'dumb' unit is exactly what the onos needs to be as the highest lifeform.
A slow, strong, powerful, 'dumb' unit is exactly what the onos needs to be as the highest lifeform.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
While that's the theory, the problem is it doesn't work that way in practice. You just don't see onos until the game is all ready decided so its learning curve is irrelevant. And because it lacks in damage output compared to the fade, it just isn't used as much.
It's time to kick ass and chew Marine Squishys, and I'm all outta Squishys!
Wrong, it works exactly that way. Onos show up as much as they should... and decide plenty of games. Lerks also don't show up as much as gorges, that's kinda the point of tiered lifeforms. The learning curve is extremely relevant.
<b>Onos gets HP back for dealing damage</b> (vampiric attacks).
I think it would have quite desirable effect - Onos would become more agressive, because so long as it's doing damage (let's say just to marines), it's regains health. As a consuequence, marines would be discouraged to bunch together, and a charging Onos would scatter them around... where they're being taken care of by lesser aliens. Marines close to each other = easy for onos to heal, because it doesn't have to travel far from one meal to another.
I think Onos shouldn't drain life from buildings, not just unthematic but could make Onos unstoppable in base sieges. Alternatively, the amount of health drained from buildings would be lower.
You can justify good gameplay (which I think this would be) any way you want. For example Onos gets a huge adrenaline rush from doing damage, making it survive longer than it would otherwise do.
Well, yes...
While I appreciate realism in fantasy and SF settings, you can only go so far before you run into sticky realism problems. Did you know how they keep elephants from escaping in zoos ? They don't use fences, they use ... dry moats. A moat 1/2 m deep is enough to keep the animal inside. He knows damn well he would break his bones from falling 1/2 m. Not only are elephants unable to jump, but they're extremely vulnerable to injury from falling.
Similarly gorillas - while strong and impressive, are actually quite fragile in some regards. Their spines have to endure much more pressure than is the case with smaller animals. They're much more vulnerable to impacts.
Some stuff (like physics) you can't just ignore. You can't just enlarge a spider, human, or a mouse 50 times and expect it to 'work'. Some shapes are better suited for small animals, and some for bigger ones. Roughly speaking, the materials which can be used for building bodies are the same for both mouse and elephant. Weight to durability ratio stays the same.
If this sounds even slightly interesting to you, I recommend a highly entertaining article:
<b>The Biology of B-Movie Monsters</b>
<a href="http://fathom.lib.uchicago.edu/2/21701757/" target="_blank">http://fathom.lib.uchicago.edu/2/21701757/</a>
While I appreciate realism in fantasy and SF settings, you can only go so far before you run into sticky realism problems. Did you know how they keep elephants from escaping in zoos ? They don't use fences, they use ... dry moats. A moat 1/2 m deep is enough to keep the animal inside. He knows damn well he would break his bones from falling 1/2 m. Not only are elephants unable to jump, but they're extremely vulnerable to injury from falling.
Similarly gorillas - while strong and impressive, are actually quite fragile in some regards. Their spines have to endure much more pressure than is the case with smaller animals. They're much more vulnerable to impacts.
Some stuff (like physics) you can't just ignore. You can't just enlarge a spider, human, or a mouse 50 times and expect it to 'work'. Some shapes are better suited for small animals, and some for bigger ones. Roughly speaking, the materials which can be used for building bodies are the same for both mouse and elephant. Weight to durability ratio stays the same.
If this sounds even slightly interesting to you, I recommend a highly entertaining article:
<b>The Biology of B-Movie Monsters</b>
<a href="http://fathom.lib.uchicago.edu/2/21701757/" target="_blank">http://fathom.lib.uchicago.edu/2/21701757/</a><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
They're aliens! You can do whatever you want with them. For all we know, their home planet might have 10G gravity or even 100g so that they can withstand huge impacts from falling.
But the reason I'm really posting, in all these dicussions everyone's suggestions seem to be about NS1. Now whilst it's perfectly possible that Charlie's changed his mind on the game design front, it's been said that adrenline may very well be going to work differently, with each ability having it's own adrenline bar. So a bit more like an ability cool down than we have now. That one was definately stated in blogs.
Also, I don't remember it being explicitly said that alt fire was for marine weapons only, whilst I think that was what was meant, there's a chance abilities might be getting an 'alt fire' too. Like I said don't think that's what they are up to but you've got to keep an open mind. ;D
Now i know this could end up breaking ALOT of things it certainly sounds fun to rearange the marine base with a charge.
It also would help greatly to make the onos feel more like a huge massive tank if it doesn't have to jump and crouch around to get trough a few tiny turrets.
Instead it would push the turrets just out of it's way, not by much but enough so you can just charge your way trough to your target without getting stuck constantly on small marine structures.
And totaly against removing the onos or devour. Maybe adding something not to drastic to do for marines while beeing diggested (how about giving marines a pen so they can write messages into the stomage for the next marine? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />) but for me even that isn't required. After all these years of playing NS i just got the patiente to sit trough it.
Alternatively, they could give the Onos a flat damage reduction, so that LMGs wouldn't deal much damage, while SGs and HMGs would do more, just like Ultralisks.
I think the Onos is kinda hard to balance as a base buster because anything with enough HP to directly assault a entrenched position is going to be hell to deal with on the field. Personally, I think perhaps it should be given even more HP, but have its mobility reduced - that way it still allows aliens to concentrate a lot of power in one area, but doesn't give too much map control.
Every higher lifeform is an hit&run creature because of the res cost involved and the ranged vs meele combat. The onos should be no exception to a certain degree.
Making the onos a pure "roar go in and crush, retreat is for the weak" class would do 2 things:
1. Possibly overpower it.
2. Remove most of the allready low skillcap.
And i don't see the point in making the onos strong vs "isolated marines". The onos is the big huge thing where everybody involved gets scared if not a ton of HMG's or shotguns are involved. And even right now it does it's job pretty good. Skulks, Lerks, Fades these are the lifeforms that are good for taking out isolated marines. The onos is your raw meatshield that stops groups of marines from moving on by simply beeing there.
Devour is a good mechanic the way it works right now, if you apply handicaps like "uh can't move after you have eaten a marine" the onos becomes useless in it's current role: breaking up heavy trains.
Devour is used to remove expensive equipment from a group of marines, that doesn't work if the onos suddenly goes stationary as soon as it eats somebody. All that will do is turn devour in some lame griefing move where people will start eating ninjas/rambos/single marines which they could just gore in a few seconds.
Btw that's something i've seen mentioned not often enough: Devour as means to remove expensive marine equipment. Everybody knows these rounds where marines are turtled up in their base with HMG's/GL's and the round drags forever. Devour is a counter to that for the simple reason that you can remove these weapons from the base so marines don't just pick them up again and end up with a team full of HMG's after holding out long enough with their single base RT.
I think they've more than earned their right being in NS2 (also considering the marketing appeal to playing a game in which you can play as a huge "elephant with teeth" type creature). If I could change anything I'd remove devour and boost any ability which encourages head on fighting (as opposed to hit and run). I like the idea of charge but I think it's strength should be damage and its weakness should be one's ease to move out of its way. By that I mean that charge should allow the onos to make great bursts of speed and inflict damage equal to the speed in which it collides with the marine (perhaps slowing down the onos as a consequence meaning lesser damage for each marine after the first), but make it so that the onos cannot change direction easily. Onos can change direction but at a low pace once he's started (a rhino cannot change direction mid-charge can he?). It would make the onos into a tank particularly useful in places in which there are tight corners or merely as a distraction for marines in open spaces causing them to disperse while your team can infiltrate the room from behind you.
I also liked locallyunscene's idea for the Meat Shield. Think trying to pwn an onos head-on should never be a bright idea both offensively and defensively, so you'd find most players trying to run or get out of the way at least from an onos in charge (like to see that in-game.. bet it'd be a riot).
You don't have to look very far to see that an expensive lifeform which is not mostly hit&run is possible. Heavy armour marine. It's not a lifeform in the strict sense, but it doesn't matter.
When the biggest, dumbest, strongest alien is mostly used for hit&run, and attacks 1 marine at most (devour), one can't help but notice something is horribly broken.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Making the onos a pure "roar go in and crush, retreat is for the weak" class would do 2 things:<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
3. Strawman
You put words into my mouth. It does not have to be 'no retreat'. It would be sufficient if Onos had to retreat after facing major opposition and taking significant damage. As for skill cap, you seem to imply that the only way to show skill is by running away. This is not so - players could distinguish themselves by being good damage dealers. It doesn't matter if onos dies in an attack if it deals crippling damage. It's enough to make onos cost-effecitve, not immortal. If an area is too heavily fortified to attack, just don't attack and organize some backup. Attack somewhere else. For marines the challenge could be not to scare Onos away and/or shoot it in the back while it's retreating, but to minimize damage dealt, and launch a counterattack.
Big, slow and stupid units are notoriously bad in multiplayer games, especially where player assumes the role of something big and stupid. They
re too inflexible. You can't count on your enemies making mistakes.
I think there are ways to make Onos good at frontal attacks without without reducing skill potential. For example give Onos very good frontal armour. A good Onos player would learn to play in such a way as to face enemies frontally most of the time, don't expose flanks or back.
Personally I would just remove Onos from the game and replace it with something else. Something smaller and more flexible. 50% bigger than a fade. Something as big, slow and inflexible as Onos is going to be a nightmare to balance.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Devour is a good mechanic the way it works right now, if you apply handicaps like "uh can't move after you have eaten a marine" the onos becomes useless in it's current role: breaking up heavy trains.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, strawman. Just because I'm criticizing devour doesn't mean I want Onos to be bad at everything else. It's not mutually exclusive. Onos could completely pwn isolated marines, even those in heavy armour, and do good job at frontal attacks. But there's a problem if hit&run is the best Onos can do.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Devour is used to remove expensive equipment from a group of marines, that doesn't work if the onos suddenly goes stationary as soon as it eats somebody. All that will do is turn devour in some lame griefing move where people will start eating ninjas/rambos/single marines which they could just gore in a few seconds.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You provide more argumentation for removing devour completely. Something as big and strong as Onos used for surgical strikes and attrition attacks.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Btw that's something i've seen mentioned not often enough: Devour as means to remove expensive marine equipment. Everybody knows these rounds where marines are turtled up in their base with HMG's/GL's and the round drags forever. Devour is a counter to that for the simple reason that you can remove these weapons from the base so marines don't just pick them up again and end up with a team full of HMG's after holding out long enough with their single base RT.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If that's the problem, Onos (or something else) could be made like Spell of Mastery from Master of Magic: overpowered by design, game-ending, but also prohibitively expensive. Say, make Onos cost 200 resources but completely obliterate everything in its path. If marines are down to a single RT for a long time, then the game <i>should</i> end, no ? I can understand assymetry and not giving aliens good siege weapons, but if it leads to games dragging on forever (Tremulous - often 60 minute matches... if someone doesn't sabotage human team first), then perhaps aliens should be given very strong very late very expensive siege weaponry ?
Also, the Onos is pretty much a left over with no real role at all.
Back in the days of 1.04 you had to play a gorge long -and well- enough to bring up the two other hives and still save up 100 res.
but then, you could have all the fun in the world and see the marines ragequit while you waste them all over the place.
But the Game Design got seriously altered, anyone can go any class now as long as there is enough res.
That changed a lot of Things, some not to the better.
If a fade is made to always be more effective than the onos, then there's something fundamentally wrong about game balance. I think NS started off well in this sense, but it got to be where the effectiveness of a highly skilled fade player is better than that of a highly skilled onos player largely due to its blink ability. It meant most veteran players favor fade over onos. If I could put my sayso in one change in Natural Selection 2 it would be to not just make classes easy to learn difficult to master, but also that a master player for any given class is only as effective as its resource cost.
Unfortunately I think speed is a concept which can be incredibly advantageous for skilled players and as such, only way for onos to be balanced in natural selection 2 is if onos were NOT the superior higher lifeform available or if the onos was allowed to move very fast.
The difficulty there is how to keep onos interesting if you're spending most of your time walking around on empty map areas. If the entertainment value somehow stays up, it's a good alternative at least.
Infantry in a modern army aren't more effective than tanks, but they are more frequently useful. Tanks project insane amounts of power, but they have limited utility, along streets, in open areas, and for breaking enemy lines. When you're stuck fighting the enemy for every room and hallway, a tank isn't going to be significantly more useful than infantry, but they can certainly help in many cases. Onos aren't able to take down a base by themselves in NS, but if you have onos on your team it makes it a lot easier. It is a conditional unit. That doesn't make it useless or less effective. In a modern army you need infantry to do anything; in NS you need fades.
Tanks are also much more expensive than infantry--say a tank costs as much as outfitting 30 infantry, you can't just send one tank up to take down 30 enemies. They'd take it down instantly with rockets and bombs. A tank with supporting friendly infantry is much more capable. They can cover it, and it covers them. Same dynamic in NS.