locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1713024:date=Jun 19 2009, 10:47 AM:name=Vman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vman @ Jun 19 2009, 10:47 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713024"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->rant<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> So you suggest slowing the onos and allowing a marine to trash slowing further? I don't think the onos needs to be slowed, the base speed should still be near that of a marine. Slowing during a devour is an interesting idea though. It won't effect an onos eating that lone marine, but it makes picking apart squads harder.
It conflicts with the role of hit and run that you're advocating though. I think you're right that devour is staying, and I doubt marines will ever be able to do damage to the onos inside its belly. You don't have to defend keeping the onos or keeping devour since any thoughts of removing devour are likely just wishful thinking. You've described what you think the onos' roles are, now describe changes to enhance these roles instead of countering them to appease those who disagree. Hopefully, we can think of a way to enhance the hit and run role that alleviates some of the perceived "cheapness" of it.
<!--quoteo(post=1713036:date=Jun 19 2009, 04:04 PM:name=locallyunscene)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene @ Jun 19 2009, 04:04 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713036"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->So you suggest slowing the onos and allowing a marine to trash slowing further? I don't think the onos needs to be slowed, the base speed should still be near that of a marine. Slowing during a devour is an interesting idea though. It won't effect an onos eating that lone marine, but it makes picking apart squads harder.
It conflicts with the role of hit and run that you're advocating though. I think you're right that devour is staying, and I doubt marines will ever be able to do damage to the onos inside its belly. You don't have to defend keeping the onos or keeping devour since any thoughts of removing devour are likely just wishful thinking. You've described what you think the onos' roles are, now describe changes to enhance these roles instead of countering them to appease those who disagree. Hopefully, we can think of a way to enhance the hit and run role that alleviates some of the perceived "cheapness" of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, maybe in addition to what I said there is a seperate 'energy' meter for devour. Once someones devoured and then you digest him, you must wait like 15 seconds or something to devour another? Idk, but yea. Hopefully we can think of ideas to improve upon what is already there instead of just saying it needs a complete overhauled structure.
Why do we need devour though? It seems to me that any instant kill would work just as well. Why not use that nifty stomp from the teaser as an instant-kill ability? You'd have just enough time to say "OH SHI-" before it comes down on you. Pair that with a passive ability to knock down and trample marines by running over them, and you have an interesting, and more fun, way of breaking up groups of marines. Such a kockdown ability could temporarily immobilize, disorient, and toss around the marines, without preventing them from firing. That way, they don't get taken out of the game.
What many people overlook about devour is that it's balances itself...
No matter what you do, a Onos on it's own will need time to wear down a heavy train because of devour. This gives the heavy train a chance to get to their destination, recieve backup or fall back. It leaves them a chance because the onos on it's own can only take out 1 HA at a time. It's a restriction that's needed to prevent the onos from beeing too strong.
Now you could think of dozens of other ways to replace devour but you will most of the time end up with something that's either:
Too strong - meaning the onos could take out a HA train on it's own pretty quickly and even faster with the help of other lifeforms Too weak - something that has no impact at all
Because the devour mechanic balances itself out trough the long devour time. Sure you could replace it with some kind of insta-kill long cooldown time ability but tbh that sounds lame. Devour is a really unique ability compared to many other games and it's one of the things that makes NS so unique.
And removing devour because some people think it's "boring" is like the lamest thing i ever heard. Next time send some LA marines infront to lure the onos out instead of sending your HA first if you really get devoured that often.
Also i don't really know if the whole "less damage idea infront, more damage in the back" idea is that cool. Apart from the allready mentioned drawbacks (depending on how the map looks it could be too strong or too weak) it would lead to the onos beeing a "make it or die" unit. You either run in and kill everybody or you die, because as soon as you notice that you recieve too much damage you need to turn around to get out but as soon as you do that you will recieve even more damage. So the best course would be to stay and keep trying to kill them which in the end comes down to luck and some pretty scared onos players that will be hesitant to charge into any unclear situation.
Dmg migration on the front - Yes More damage in the back - No
No matter who says "the onos shouldn't be a hit&run lifeform" it comes down to that it is gonna be an hit&run lifeform. That's in the nature of the alien side, because the lifeforms cost res and they can heal up for free it will allways come down to hit&run. The only way to remove the hit&run aspect while still favoring player skill would be some stupid combo system, but after all hit&run tactics greatly depend on playerskill too and that's a good thing.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Obviously oni aren't tanks and fades aren't infantry, I was attempting to use metaphor to lead you to a conclusion. The onos occupies a tactical niche similar to tanks in modern armies.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, clearly not. That remark was in response to project_demon who was clearly missing the point.
I agree that tactics and class usage is hard to quantify in terms of skulk<lerk<fade<onos. There are many many factors to consider and even the most basic generalization of class performance can easily be disrupted simply by a map which has a lot of high ceilings for example. However, I think it's important to stress that just because it's difficult or even near impossible to do so, it's important to try. May be difficult to predict the stronger classes in ns2 whatever they may be, but if you're going to implement ns2 with the same classes as ns1, while you're at it, you might as well make a couple corrections in balance based on how class balance already is now. As useful as the fade is, can we at least pretend that the elephant-sized lifeform which costs the most resources will be the most effective class in ns2 (generally speaking of course).
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1713044:date=Jun 19 2009, 12:59 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Jun 19 2009, 12:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713044"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->What many people overlook about devour is that it's balances itself...
Too strong - meaning the onos could take out a HA train on it's own pretty quickly and even faster with the help of other lifeforms Too weak - something that has no impact at all ... No matter who says "the onos shouldn't be a hit&run lifeform" it comes down to that it is gonna be an hit&run lifeform. That's in the nature of the alien side, because the lifeforms cost res and they can heal up for free it will allways come down to hit&run. The only way to remove the hit&run aspect while still favoring player skill would be some stupid combo system, but after all hit&run tactics greatly depend on playerskill too and that's a good thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not that devour is overpowered or unbalanced. No one in this thread has said that AFAIK, just that it's a very boring ability for the receiving player that requires only a little twitch skill to master. I think devour should be changed for the same reason the nuke was removed from NS1. <!--quoteo(post=1713044:date=Jun 19 2009, 12:59 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Jun 19 2009, 12:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713044"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dmg migration on the front - Yes More damage in the back - No<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sounds good to me. BTW the word you're looking for is "mitigation" not "migration". Migration is what Canadian Geese and Monarch Butterflies do.
<!--quoteo(post=1713047:date=Jun 19 2009, 12:28 PM:name=Hawkeye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawkeye @ Jun 19 2009, 12:28 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713047"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As useful as the fade is, can we at least pretend that the elephant-sized lifeform which costs the most resources will be the most effective class in ns2 (generally speaking of course).<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, because NS isn't a RPG and changing lifeforms isn't leveling up. When you change your class, you change your entire role in the battle. The res cost for units and upgrades <i>should be</i> balanced based on the utility they bring to the table for those roles, not how much better they are, in general, than the next cheapest option (except for some instances like weapons level 1, 2, 3, carapace 1, 2, 3, etc.). Thankfully, that's how Charlie balanced NS and I assume NS2.
What I'm saying is that if you balanced NS around some form of class progression, you'd end up with a different game. Some sort of first-person role playing shooter with little tactical depth, since if you want to balance the classes that way, you need to bring their abilities in line with each other, and end up making slightly stronger clones. So, um, maybe you're basing your impressions of the Onos on NS Combat games?
<!--quoteo(post=1713018:date=Jun 19 2009, 09:38 PM:name=Vman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vman @ Jun 19 2009, 09:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713018"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Yes, It could be better if you make it easier to be rescued. <b> That is something I can agree on </b> But maybe not regurgitating the marine. Maybe Every bit of damage the onos takes from a shot/knife from the marine makes it possible for the marine to be Regurgitated? like a 10% possibility.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hmm, I don't think it would work out very well for you. 1 bullet -- 10% 2 bullets - 19% 3 bullets - 27.1% 4 bullets - 34.39% 5 bullets - 40.951% 6 bullets - 46.8559% 7 bullets - 52.17031% You'd only need to put 7 bullets in the back of an onos to have better than even odds at rescuing a marine. I say go with the set amount of damage, or portion of max hp.
<!--quoteo(post=1713018:date=Jun 19 2009, 09:38 PM:name=Vman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vman @ Jun 19 2009, 09:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713018"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have no reason to stop saying. <b> If it ain't broke, don't fix it. </b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> There are in fact, TWO, reasons for you to stop saying that. 1) It's very ###### annoying. Repetition is not a debating skill. 2) You <b>are</b> missing the fact that although <b>you</b> don't think it's broken, <b>others</b> do - <b>other people playing the game</b>, for example. It's a difference of opinion. (See, when <b>I</b> repeat myself, I make improvements.)
I like the idea of taking more damage from the back and minimal damage from the front. It would be enough deterrent from an onos deciding to run away, and as an onos you'd prefer to fight head on. So long as you still have that reduced backward movement speed, it's enough deterrent to running backward too. Whoever mentioned that onoses would then have greater advantage in a narrow hallway has a fair point, but consider that every map is going to be made of both large spaces and claustrophobic spaces, and aliens have always reigned supreme in the claustrophobic spaces, so this will simply continue that tradition.
Speaking of migrating damage... an onos' armour could (not instantly) migrate to where it is currently most being shot (and migrate back to the front when it is no longer being attacked). Haha, an interesting idea I think. Would encourage marines to surround the onos.
<!--QuoteBegin-locallyunscene+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (locallyunscene)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's not that devour is overpowered or unbalanced. No one in this thread has said that AFAIK, just that it's a very boring ability for the receiving player that requires only a little twitch skill to master. I think devour should be changed for the same reason the nuke was removed from NS1.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You are not getting the point, devour is the structure for the onos. Just like parasite, and metabolize play their own roles with other aliens. It is the balance for the onos, and a appropriate one at that. I realize you find it boring, but why should it be removed because you find a few seconds in the stomach then respawn boring. Its like saying you want a faster respawn time because waiting to respawn is too slow as is. I realize that its 'boring' for you, but again. Why should the onos's move set cater to you because you have become the unlucky victim of devour? There are obviously others that feel that devour should stay as is like I do, and you aren't seeing that, nor the plentiful facts presented to you. Quit talking about how in your opinion devour needs to be removed, and help us work on improving it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Ok Harimau, when you make your <u>'Improvements'</u> You are just stating the same thing with a bit more 'icing' to sway people to whatever you want. Don't mask your <u>'Improvements'</u> with the same thing at the core.
Speaking in a more helpful area, while it would be unlikely. Taking less damage from the front would seem to be plausible, seeing as the onos is heavily armored at the front, and it would also encourage a more frontal attack. Even if I dont like that Idea, I don't have to like everything.
oh, and since you wanna make a list of <b>Facts</b> for me, I will cough not two but three up for you:
Fact one: <u>I am one</u> of the people who play this game, daily if my real life dosent stand of higher priority.
Fact two: A onos is described and has been described like this below in the about section of this very website. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...or gigantic Onos that can devour enemies whole.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[fact three is especially for you Harimau] Fact Three: <b>My Opinions</b> are the equivalent of <b>yours and anyone</b> elses.
That 10% chance for regurgitation, was a figurehead number. I realize how high it is, anyone who could do math would and you tried to vigilantly to make me seem like I have absolutely no clue of what I'm talking about. But its a figurehead, It stood only for its Idea. Please make a reply about what % would be good enough for YOU.
<!--QuoteBegin-"Vman"+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE ("Vman")</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You are not getting the point, devour is the structure for the onos.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can't remove acid rocket from the fade, its part of its structure. Or primal scream from the lerk. Or paralyze from the Onos. Or babblers from the gorge. Or bile...
i agree with devour needing to be replaced. I think stomp is enough to take out heavy trains considering NS is a TEAM based game. Besides, it never made much sense to me why onos dont chew their food first. bad table manners if you ask me!
Simply looking at it from the perspective of the teaser (how the onos functions at release should reflect how it was depicted if atleast for the sake of consistency), itreally should be full of ohnoes! it should scare the crap out of rines instead of being some lumbering elephant that runs in and eats people then runs out or otherwise dies to 4-5 rines with lmgs. (w1 lmgs 10dmg*4*50bullets = 2000dmg = just about how much hp/armour uncarapaced onos has if i remember right). It also looks capable of moving around the map and not getting stuck on things like skulks and turrets.
1) gore (aoe if it isnt too op..) 2) charge -> pushes other aliens out of the way -> i'd personally love to see this where your able to stun/toss/knockback the first marine/s you hit if you were previously charging for 5 seconds or something. Scatter them bowling pins! 3) stomp 4) Roar/howl/or whatever noise. - i quite liked the 'rage' idea mentioned before. my suggestion is this ability doing something like that -> boost friendly damage -> short temporary damage reduction e.g. 60% frontal damage reduction for 3-4 seconds or something. -> scare teh marines crapless so they are 'disorientated' slightly/suffer a firing speed decrease. -> shortens the time requirement of your next charge to knockback rines. e.g. 2 seconds instead of 5. It could be an ability you 'charge up' before unleashing so that the strength of its effect depends on how much adrenaline you decide to invest in it.
Jp's woudl still counter this, while HA trains remain countered somewhat.
Also, this has prob been suggested befre sonewhere.. but I think it would also help make the onos more tactical and fun to play if other aliens e.g. skulks could cling/jump/climb onto it. hint: gorge cowboys. If not for the lulz, it may help it perform the role of a 'tank' better as well i think. SMART rines wil generally just shoot the skulks/gorges first in any class mix depending on the situation.
oh and one other thing. FIXING and IMPROVING are two different things. it might not be broken, but it also doesnt mean the concept cant be improved!
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You can't remove acid rocket from the fade, its part of its structure. Or primal scream from the lerk. Or paralyze from the Onos. Or babblers from the gorge. Or bile...
Oh snap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know things can be removed, I know they CAN. But it is appart of their structure. So what is your point?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Crackle, AND Pop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> +1 post count for you?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Devour should be a gorge ability, that way no marine would ever try to knife another poor gorgie<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Lol, a gorge with devour.. That is so anatomically correct
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<!--quoteo(post=1713092:date=Jun 20 2009, 12:28 AM:name=Vman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vman @ Jun 20 2009, 12:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713092"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->You are not getting the point, devour is the structure for the onos. Just like parasite, and metabolize play their own roles with other aliens. It is the balance for the onos, and a appropriate one at that. I realize you find it boring, but why should it be removed because you find a few seconds in the stomach then respawn boring. Its like saying you want a faster respawn time because waiting to respawn is too slow as is. I realize that its 'boring' for you, but again. Why should the onos's move set cater to you because you have become the unlucky victim of devour? There are obviously others that feel that devour should stay as is like I do, and you aren't seeing that, nor the plentiful facts presented to you. Quit talking about how in your opinion devour needs to be removed, and help us work on improving it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Brush up on your reading comprehension.
<!--quoteo(post=1713152:date=Jun 20 2009, 05:21 PM:name=Vman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vman @ Jun 20 2009, 05:21 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know things can be removed, I know they CAN. But it is appart of their structure. So what is your point?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Acid rocket is integral to fade structure. Without it, fades are unable to scratch heavy armour trains. It's much safer to pop from around the corner and deal 30 damage from afar. Acid rocket is not meant to be fun, just useful. Fades need it to remove heavy equipment from marine team. Heavy armour marines cost 75 resources each, so a fade only needs to kill 150% its cost to slowly wear down marine team. Removing acid rockets would make fades useless. It's a fact.
And some people dont see that devour is hand and hand with an onos, like acid rocket is with a fade. Acid rocket is something that a fade is known for. Its annoying as hell to get spammed with it when 3 fades are doing it at the same time at the same area but its effective.
Heh, I'm done posting in here. Nobodys seeing 'my' point of the idea. Its not just me who feels this way to, atleast 4 other people within this whole topic have made their posts. Yet your not listening to the OTHER players of the game, and just yourself and whoever goes with your idea.
<!--quoteo(post=1713018:date=Jun 19 2009, 07:38 AM:name=Vman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vman @ Jun 19 2009, 07:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713018"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Devour and stomp should be removed? If you do that you DO make the onos weak, its like removing blink from a fade or leap from a skulk. <b> Its their specialty! </b> But hey, we can also remove charge and gore and just have the onos stand there and be a expensive meat shield :D. Or better yet, the onos is removed from the whole bloody game and becomes just a mascot like on a American football team :F <b> If it ain't broke, don't fix it. </b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're exactly right, the onos would be weaker if those 2 abilities were removed - IF everything else stayed the same... What you're failing to understand is that other things about the onos can be changed.
Devour and stomp are - as I said 1) a bit silly and 2) not very fun. I think that the onos would be far more exciting if it beat the crap out of things without having to stand around paralyzing a few enemies, eating one, and running away to cower in a corner. That is what the onos does quite a bit. So if they are removed, the onos must be made stronger in other ways. NS2 is a new game. This means things are not going to be exactly the same as before.
Point being - the onos is broken. It should be fixed.
As we've learned by now, though - you have a different opinion.
<!--QuoteBegin-vman+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (vman)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Nobodys seeing 'my' point of the idea. Its not just me who feels this way to, atleast 4 other people within this whole topic have made their posts. Yet your not listening to the OTHER players of the game, and just yourself and whoever goes with your idea.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) no one sees your point because you havn't really given a good reason or explanation. your 'point' so far has simply been 'devour is integral to onos' are you saying that any ability should be used for ns2 simply because it was used in ns1? if so, i think thats a very weak arguement lol. maybe come up with some reasons to back it up from a gameplay perspective. I personally love devour myself but from the point of view of gameplay i think it shoudl go.
2) how do u know whether people are listening or not in a forum. just because they are not drawn to your opinion that devour shoudl stay does not mean they are not listening. you may not be as convincing as you believe :p! mhehe
You need t to ensure that the onos is versatile, with various roles it can play. That way, a skilled player can take advantage of the onos by quickly and effectively switching between these roles.
3 Main roles for Onos that have been brought up: <b>-Meat-shield for teammates and structures -Damage dealing Battering Rams (players and seige) -anit-HA</b>
<b>-Meatshield</b> I find the idea of the Onos taking a lot less damage from the front and being able to act as a shield for the teammates and structures interesting. But it could lead to the onos being very one dimensional. Instead of this being an innate ability, make it an activated ability...like a stance. Lets call it defensive stance, and a player can quickly switch between normal and defensive stance (a couple seconds). In defensive stance the onos tilts his head forward slightly and those boney armored carapace frills pop out making a shield. From the front, the onos takes almost no damage from light fire, and little from heavy. However, in this stance the onos moves slower, and exposes a soft spot in the back of his head. It could look like a big red gland for easy identification. When the gland is shot it does significant damage, but more importantly after taking 3 hits or so it pops him back into normal stance. And if the onos was taking a lot fire, he will suddenly find himself taking a lot of damage. And the onos can not go back into normal stance for a period of time (say 5-10 seconds). Overall, this defensive stance becomes a tool for a good player to make good use, instead of boxing the onos into a limited role.
<b>-Battering ram</b> In its normal stance, the onos player should instead of turtling, want to charge head first and dish out damage. I also like the Rage meter idea, but someone else brought up that that the more damage you take and more of the rage meter goes up, the more damage you dish out and maybe increased movement speed. This will encourage berserker like onos, going into battle head first bashing down rines...which we all want to see. The onos will not build up rage in defensive stance, only in normal stance.
<b>-HA denial</b> Finally the controversial one. Onos taking out HA by devouring them, or stunning them
First devouring, it seems the devs want to keep devour. I frankly dont want to see it go, however I realize that its has major faults and could be improved. The no fun factor of being devoured is something you can not casually dismiss. NS2 will be played by a much wider population of players then NS, and the truth is devour is not a "fun" mechanic, and most people will find it annoying. But with a few simple adjustments, I think you can keep the role of devour, while not alienating players.
Some ground rules. Devour is for taking out HA, keep that. But devour should also have some counters, and not be stupid easy one hit kills, put some skill into it. To devour someone, that player must have been taken down to at least 75%. Why? First it makes sense that the onos player wants to eat a weaken foes since most predators do, but looking at gameplay, it adds some thought process for the onos player on who and how to devour someone. An onos player could also work in tandem with lurks. The lurks parasite them which adds a colored coded damage reading (ala L4D) so the ono player can quickly single out damaged HAs. It promotes player skill and teamwork...win-win. Second, after the onos player devours someone, the onos automatically pops into defensive stance for the duration of the 'digestion'. Again Why? First it also makes sense...predators usually go hide after a kill to digest. But more importantly it prevents an onos player from trashing entire squads directly after a devour, and it discourages hit and run devour tactics. Hit and run is still possible but harder...for several reasons. In defensive mode you move slightly slower, plus the gland is exposed. If you run away you'll expose the gland. Once the gland is hit several times, the onos player goes back into normal stance. This forces the onos to automatically regurgitate the devoured player. So if the onos player want to run away, make sure not to give other player free shot to the back.
Now, about that poor devoured player. Give the devoured player the option to "tap out" and quickly respawn if they want. The drawback to doing that is respawned player will not have the option to select HA for 20 secs after respawning (and possibly other upgrades). Justify it any way you want. This effectively deprives the marine team of HA after a devour, and keeps the devour its anti-HA role.
As for onos stunning marines...I think its more engaging for everyon if Onos crashes into and knocks back sqauds of marines in all directions. This isolates them so that the Onos player teammates can pick them off. Of course the act of knocking them back balances itself, since you knock them away from the onos, and then the onos has to run up to them again. Anyone who has played a tank in L4D understands this perfectly. This will affect HA more since they are slower moving and easier targets to crash into.
Finally, a new role for the Onos that I don't think has been brought up in this thread. An APC-like ability for the onos to transport Lurks. Imagine finding an Onos crashing into a squad, and out pops 2-3 skulks from it sides. These are small compartments within the Onos carapace for small skulks to hide and shield itself from fire...and later pop out and ambush marine players. It would promote cohesion and teamwork on the Kharaa side, and only good can come from it imo.
<!--quoteo(post=1713018:date=Jun 19 2009, 11:38 PM:name=Vman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vman @ Jun 19 2009, 11:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713018"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Devour and stomp should be removed? If you do that you DO make the onos weak, its like removing blink from a fade or leap from a skulk. <b> Its their specialty! </b> But hey, we can also remove charge and gore and just have the onos stand there and be a expensive meat shield :D. Or better yet, the onos is removed from the whole bloody game and becomes just a mascot like on a American football team :F<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We're not debating that the abilities be removed from NS1 (though personally I'd love to see them gone there too). You seem to be under the impression that NS2 will be NS1 with new graphics. Now if that were the case, you'd be completely right: the Onos would be more or less useless. But that's not the case, and I think deep down you know that. We know absolutely nothing about the Oni's abilities and stats in NS2; for all we know they could have triple the HP they do right now and twice the speed, along with an ability that lets them pin marines to the ground and stomp on them. It's all up in the air until the alpha and beta kicks off.
Just because something has a specialty in NS1 doesn't mean that they will have the same mechanic or feature in NS2. Times change. Back in 1.0 Fades were ranged specialists built around acid rocket spam; nowdays they're CC monsters built around blink and Focus. Lerks once upon a time downed turret factories from afar with spikes; now their role is much more support orientated. Evolve.
<!--quoteo(post=1713152:date=Jun 21 2009, 12:21 AM:name=Vman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vman @ Jun 21 2009, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->+1 post count for you?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh snap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Crackle, AND Pop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> <a href="http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=snap+crackle+and+pop&meta=" target="_blank">Inside joke</a>.
<!--quoteo(post=1713152:date=Jun 21 2009, 12:21 AM:name=Vman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vman @ Jun 21 2009, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know things can be removed, I know they CAN. But it is appart of their structure. So what is your point?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> We can <b>change</b>! I know we CAN! Can I get an AMEN, brothers?
Devour's only problem is when people devour and run.
Devour is not meant to kill marines. Devour is meant to delay marines. One more marine in a stomach is one less spawning in. If newer players realised this, then casual endgames would move a lot faster because you'd no longer have the lunch queue of Onos at the door to the base.
Think about it - how many times do you see a group of Onos snatch and run one at a time? Now compare that with the mental image of all those Onos rushing base at once, Goring and Charging all in their path. Which sounds truer to the concept?
Personally, I would lower Devour damage and/or increase digestion time (not always the same), combined with a much MUCH easier Devour system (I'm thinking autohit), with a corresponding increase in health (while digesting) and gore damage (in general). That way, people devour as an opportunity and not as the be all and end all.
If there were a proper physics model for Charge, you wouldn't even need to up the Gore damage - you would have the perfect tank for breaking turret farms and Heavy trains. Arguably the endgame strategy that the Onos is designed to counter.
Does this unbalance the game? I don't believe so. People who know how to devour can do it on command, and most players know how to try and dodge. New players struggle with the counterintuitive aiming of Devour. Making it autohit, or similar, just makes it easier for new folk to do their job without disadvantaging better players. We need to move away from Snatch and Run and move towards Charge the Base.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->No, because NS isn't a RPG and changing lifeforms isn't leveling up. When you change your class, you change your entire role in the battle. The res cost for units and upgrades should be balanced based on the utility they bring to the table for those roles, not how much better they are, in general, than the next cheapest option (except for some instances like weapons level 1, 2, 3, carapace 1, 2, 3, etc.). Thankfully, that's how Charlie balanced NS and I assume NS2.
What I'm saying is that if you balanced NS around some form of class progression, you'd end up with a different game. Some sort of first-person role playing shooter with little tactical depth, since if you want to balance the classes that way, you need to bring their abilities in line with each other, and end up making slightly stronger clones. So, um, maybe you're basing your impressions of the Onos on NS Combat games?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, sorry if I implied that being an onos of 75 res would somehow guarantee performance. I didn't even think it was even possible to turn a complete newb into a veteran player simply by changing the resource cost of the lifeform he chose to evolve into actually. It's obvious that skill plays a factor here. When I say that onos should be the class which dominates, I mean to say that the ability of players who are experts at playing onos should be higher than that of any other class. If a new player goes onos for the first time, I can almost guarantee that he won't get his 75 resources worth.
Does this mean we should declare Fade better than Onos? No, of course not. Player ability is relative and we can't predict the outcome between any two players with any reasonable accuracy, but that doesn't mean the skulk is on even ground with the onos. Not by a long shot. It simply means we must generalize class performance by its resource cost. It means the onos should dominate over the fade and while the fade may have its role as support, ultimately its the onos that's king. How that makes NS2 an RPG I have no idea. I suppose the only thing which makes NS1 not an RPG is because a player can perform better as a fade than as an onos according to your logic? I don't buy it.
To be honest, even as Gorge I'm better than Fade. Maybe it changed in the past years since I quit active play, but the old teleport mechanic did fit me better and I can't adapt as it takes to much Stamina.
With a supportive Team (read: good Lerks and some Gorges) I was able to turn a Game as Onos, tho.
<b>Note: This post is meant to reinforce the Argument that the usability of a Class is defined by the Player, not the Game's Design</b>
Was just reading through the comments and have some thoughts about it.
Premises 1. Marines excel in ranged combat while Aliens excel in melee combat. 2. Marines have to balance clustering together to improve firepower vs spreading out and risk being picked out.
I've always felt the onos should be the tank in any alien blitzkrieg operation, though i hated that in NS1 several issues made the onos nothing more than a bullet sponge. The idea being that the onos forced marines to spread out, only to be picked off individually by aliens.
An Onos is even less viable for a narrow room since all the firepower can be aimed in one general direction.
With regards to the purpose of the onos, assuming developers consider "dictating/designing it such" that a onos should be the blitzkrieg tank, then I have some humble comments.
Suggestions (all suggested by others at some points) 1. A brief invulnerability "weapon" that has a long recharge time. Allows enough time for the onos to make the marines spread out and to absorbe the marine's initial mass fire. (this may be better as it would still be viable if marines were spread out and camping a room) 2. Frontal armour that is impervious to bullets. Marines forced to spread out and flank the onos.
I've come to realise that developers had to balance giving enough health to lead a charge yet not too much that it would be unstoppable unless the whole marine team was there. This is a fundamental issue with game balance. The above suggestions are intended to create a new set of factors in deciding how much health an onos should have.
For debate, assuming the above suggestion/s are implemented, the devs may not have to worry about the health balances as much since 1. recharge time would limit its use and let marines counter attack. 2. It can have a reasonable amount of health without losing its purpose as the lead "tank" in a marine base/outpost push. 3. Frontal armour is not impregnable as marines can still spread out and flank it. 4. Frontal armour adds a new dimension to those long corridor battles. (personally felt that gameplay was not varied enough as aliens didn't have a decent counter against marines in a long corridor.
A few ideas have been proposed along lines of the onos having locational damage so being shot on the front does low/no damage. I see the Onos as the anti-heavy, anti-structure alien which has to be defeated with more than just concentrated fire power. I'd think the Onos speed should be somewhere between a heavy marine and light marine, so that a heavy has very little chance of outrunning it, but a light marine could get away. At the same time a group of Heavy slow moving marines should have trouble with an Onos as it just soaks up the bullets hitting its front. While a group of light or jetpack marines should be able to dispatch an Onos by flanking and splitting up.
So along that line of thought, suggestion for locational damage:
--During normal play, the Onos takes 80% damage on the front armor plate and 100% everywhere else --While using the charge ability, the Onos takes only 40% damage on the front and only 80% everywhere else --Since abilities have separate cooldowns now instead of sharing the same energy bar, Charge can have a very high energy cost to limit use while not preventing the Onos from attacking
Even with 40% damage, a solo Onos charging a large stack of equipped marines would go down fairly fast, but if he also had teammates supporting him that extra health would make a lot of difference. For example if theres a Lerk throwing umbra that reduces damage all the way to 13%, and you're not going to be able to shoot through that anytime soon. Even if there's just a skulk pack following and maybe a Fade, the time required to kill the Onos at 40% damage will let his teammates have plenty of time to kill off most of the marines in the process. And if its only a small stack of marines? They better be able to flank him, or else just wait for charge to wear off.
Comments
So you suggest slowing the onos and allowing a marine to trash slowing further? I don't think the onos needs to be slowed, the base speed should still be near that of a marine. Slowing during a devour is an interesting idea though. It won't effect an onos eating that lone marine, but it makes picking apart squads harder.
It conflicts with the role of hit and run that you're advocating though. I think you're right that devour is staying, and I doubt marines will ever be able to do damage to the onos inside its belly. You don't have to defend keeping the onos or keeping devour since any thoughts of removing devour are likely just wishful thinking. You've described what you think the onos' roles are, now describe changes to enhance these roles instead of countering them to appease those who disagree. Hopefully, we can think of a way to enhance the hit and run role that alleviates some of the perceived "cheapness" of it.
It conflicts with the role of hit and run that you're advocating though. I think you're right that devour is staying, and I doubt marines will ever be able to do damage to the onos inside its belly. You don't have to defend keeping the onos or keeping devour since any thoughts of removing devour are likely just wishful thinking. You've described what you think the onos' roles are, now describe changes to enhance these roles instead of countering them to appease those who disagree. Hopefully, we can think of a way to enhance the hit and run role that alleviates some of the perceived "cheapness" of it.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, maybe in addition to what I said there is a seperate 'energy' meter for devour. Once someones devoured and then you digest him, you must wait like 15 seconds or something to devour another? Idk, but yea. Hopefully we can think of ideas to improve upon what is already there instead of just saying it needs a complete overhauled structure.
No matter what you do, a Onos on it's own will need time to wear down a heavy train because of devour. This gives the heavy train a chance to get to their destination, recieve backup or fall back. It leaves them a chance because the onos on it's own can only take out 1 HA at a time. It's a restriction that's needed to prevent the onos from beeing too strong.
Now you could think of dozens of other ways to replace devour but you will most of the time end up with something that's either:
Too strong - meaning the onos could take out a HA train on it's own pretty quickly and even faster with the help of other lifeforms
Too weak - something that has no impact at all
Because the devour mechanic balances itself out trough the long devour time. Sure you could replace it with some kind of insta-kill long cooldown time ability but tbh that sounds lame.
Devour is a really unique ability compared to many other games and it's one of the things that makes NS so unique.
And removing devour because some people think it's "boring" is like the lamest thing i ever heard. Next time send some LA marines infront to lure the onos out instead of sending your HA first if you really get devoured that often.
Also i don't really know if the whole "less damage idea infront, more damage in the back" idea is that cool. Apart from the allready mentioned drawbacks (depending on how the map looks it could be too strong or too weak) it would lead to the onos beeing a "make it or die" unit. You either run in and kill everybody or you die, because as soon as you notice that you recieve too much damage you need to turn around to get out but as soon as you do that you will recieve even more damage. So the best course would be to stay and keep trying to kill them which in the end comes down to luck and some pretty scared onos players that will be hesitant to charge into any unclear situation.
Dmg migration on the front - Yes
More damage in the back - No
No matter who says "the onos shouldn't be a hit&run lifeform" it comes down to that it is gonna be an hit&run lifeform. That's in the nature of the alien side, because the lifeforms cost res and they can heal up for free it will allways come down to hit&run. The only way to remove the hit&run aspect while still favoring player skill would be some stupid combo system, but after all hit&run tactics greatly depend on playerskill too and that's a good thing.
No, clearly not. That remark was in response to project_demon who was clearly missing the point.
I agree that tactics and class usage is hard to quantify in terms of skulk<lerk<fade<onos. There are many many factors to consider and even the most basic generalization of class performance can easily be disrupted simply by a map which has a lot of high ceilings for example. However, I think it's important to stress that just because it's difficult or even near impossible to do so, it's important to try. May be difficult to predict the stronger classes in ns2 whatever they may be, but if you're going to implement ns2 with the same classes as ns1, while you're at it, you might as well make a couple corrections in balance based on how class balance already is now. As useful as the fade is, can we at least pretend that the elephant-sized lifeform which costs the most resources will be the most effective class in ns2 (generally speaking of course).
Too strong - meaning the onos could take out a HA train on it's own pretty quickly and even faster with the help of other lifeforms
Too weak - something that has no impact at all
...
No matter who says "the onos shouldn't be a hit&run lifeform" it comes down to that it is gonna be an hit&run lifeform. That's in the nature of the alien side, because the lifeforms cost res and they can heal up for free it will allways come down to hit&run. The only way to remove the hit&run aspect while still favoring player skill would be some stupid combo system, but after all hit&run tactics greatly depend on playerskill too and that's a good thing.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's not that devour is overpowered or unbalanced. No one in this thread has said that AFAIK, just that it's a very boring ability for the receiving player that requires only a little twitch skill to master. I think devour should be changed for the same reason the nuke was removed from NS1.
<!--quoteo(post=1713044:date=Jun 19 2009, 12:59 PM:name=rebirth)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (rebirth @ Jun 19 2009, 12:59 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713044"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dmg migration on the front - Yes
More damage in the back - No<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sounds good to me. BTW the word you're looking for is "mitigation" not "migration". Migration is what Canadian Geese and Monarch Butterflies do.
No, because NS isn't a RPG and changing lifeforms isn't leveling up. When you change your class, you change your entire role in the battle. The res cost for units and upgrades <i>should be</i> balanced based on the utility they bring to the table for those roles, not how much better they are, in general, than the next cheapest option (except for some instances like weapons level 1, 2, 3, carapace 1, 2, 3, etc.). Thankfully, that's how Charlie balanced NS and I assume NS2.
What I'm saying is that if you balanced NS around some form of class progression, you'd end up with a different game. Some sort of first-person role playing shooter with little tactical depth, since if you want to balance the classes that way, you need to bring their abilities in line with each other, and end up making slightly stronger clones. So, um, maybe you're basing your impressions of the Onos on NS Combat games?
Hmm, I don't think it would work out very well for you.
1 bullet -- 10%
2 bullets - 19%
3 bullets - 27.1%
4 bullets - 34.39%
5 bullets - 40.951%
6 bullets - 46.8559%
7 bullets - 52.17031%
You'd only need to put 7 bullets in the back of an onos to have better than even odds at rescuing a marine.
I say go with the set amount of damage, or portion of max hp.
<!--quoteo(post=1713018:date=Jun 19 2009, 09:38 PM:name=Vman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vman @ Jun 19 2009, 09:38 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713018"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I have no reason to stop saying.
<b> If it ain't broke, don't fix it. </b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
There are in fact, TWO, reasons for you to stop saying that.
1) It's very ###### annoying. Repetition is not a debating skill.
2) You <b>are</b> missing the fact that although <b>you</b> don't think it's broken, <b>others</b> do - <b>other people playing the game</b>, for example. It's a difference of opinion. (See, when <b>I</b> repeat myself, I make improvements.)
I like the idea of taking more damage from the back and minimal damage from the front. It would be enough deterrent from an onos deciding to run away, and as an onos you'd prefer to fight head on. So long as you still have that reduced backward movement speed, it's enough deterrent to running backward too. Whoever mentioned that onoses would then have greater advantage in a narrow hallway has a fair point, but consider that every map is going to be made of both large spaces and claustrophobic spaces, and aliens have always reigned supreme in the claustrophobic spaces, so this will simply continue that tradition.
Speaking of migrating damage... an onos' armour could (not instantly) migrate to where it is currently most being shot (and migrate back to the front when it is no longer being attacked). Haha, an interesting idea I think. Would encourage marines to surround the onos.
You are not getting the point, devour is the structure for the onos. Just like parasite, and metabolize play their own roles with other aliens. It is the balance for the onos, and a appropriate one at that. I realize you find it boring, but why should it be removed because you find a few seconds in the stomach then respawn boring. Its like saying you want a faster respawn time because waiting to respawn is too slow as is. I realize that its 'boring' for you, but again. Why should the onos's move set cater to you because you have become the unlucky victim of devour? There are obviously others that feel that devour should stay as is like I do, and you aren't seeing that, nor the plentiful facts presented to you. Quit talking about how in your opinion devour needs to be removed, and help us work on improving it.
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Ok Harimau, when you make your <u>'Improvements'</u> You are just stating the same thing with a bit
more 'icing' to sway people to whatever you want. Don't mask your <u>'Improvements'</u> with the same thing
at the core.
Speaking in a more helpful area, while it would be unlikely. Taking less damage from the front would seem to be plausible, seeing as the onos is heavily armored at the front, and it would also encourage a more frontal attack. Even if I dont like that Idea, I don't have to like everything.
oh, and since you wanna make a list of <b>Facts</b> for me, I will cough not two but three up for you:
Fact one: <u>I am one</u> of the people who play this game, daily if my real life dosent stand of higher priority.
Fact two: A onos is described and has been described like this below in the about section of this very website.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->...or gigantic Onos that can devour enemies whole.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
[fact three is especially for you Harimau]
Fact Three: <b>My Opinions</b> are the equivalent of <b>yours and anyone</b> elses.
That 10% chance for regurgitation, was a figurehead number. I realize how high it is, anyone who could do math would and you tried to vigilantly to make me seem like I have absolutely no clue of what I'm talking about. But its a figurehead, It stood only for its Idea. Please make a reply about what % would be good enough for YOU.
Good day/night sir.
also..
<b>If it aint broke, don't fix it!</b>
You can't remove acid rocket from the fade, its part of its structure. Or primal scream from the lerk. Or paralyze from the Onos. Or babblers from the gorge. Or bile...
Oh snap.
Simply looking at it from the perspective of the teaser (how the onos functions at release should reflect how it was depicted if atleast for the sake of consistency), itreally should be full of ohnoes! it should scare the crap out of rines instead of being some lumbering elephant that runs in and eats people then runs out or otherwise dies to 4-5 rines with lmgs. (w1 lmgs 10dmg*4*50bullets = 2000dmg = just about how much hp/armour uncarapaced onos has if i remember right). It also looks capable of moving around the map and not getting stuck on things like skulks and turrets.
1) gore (aoe if it isnt too op..)
2) charge
-> pushes other aliens out of the way
-> i'd personally love to see this where your able to stun/toss/knockback the first marine/s you hit if you were previously charging for 5 seconds or something. Scatter them bowling pins!
3) stomp
4) Roar/howl/or whatever noise.
- i quite liked the 'rage' idea mentioned before. my suggestion is this ability doing something like that
-> boost friendly damage
-> short temporary damage reduction e.g. 60% frontal damage reduction for 3-4 seconds or something.
-> scare teh marines crapless so they are 'disorientated' slightly/suffer a firing speed decrease.
-> shortens the time requirement of your next charge to knockback rines. e.g. 2 seconds instead of 5.
It could be an ability you 'charge up' before unleashing so that the strength of its effect depends on how much adrenaline you decide to invest in it.
Jp's woudl still counter this, while HA trains remain countered somewhat.
Also, this has prob been suggested befre sonewhere.. but I think it would also help make the onos more tactical and fun to play if other aliens e.g. skulks could cling/jump/climb onto it. hint: gorge cowboys. If not for the lulz, it may help it perform the role of a 'tank' better as well i think. SMART rines wil generally just shoot the skulks/gorges first in any class mix depending on the situation.
oh and one other thing.
FIXING and IMPROVING are two different things. it might not be broken, but it also doesnt mean the concept cant be improved!
Oh snap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know things can be removed, I know they CAN. But it is appart of their structure. So what is your point?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Crackle, AND Pop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
+1 post count for you?
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Devour should be a gorge ability, that way no marine would ever try to knife another poor gorgie<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Lol, a gorge with devour.. That is so anatomically correct
Brush up on your reading comprehension.
Acid rocket is integral to fade structure. Without it, fades are unable to scratch heavy armour trains. It's much safer to pop from around the corner and deal 30 damage from afar. Acid rocket is not meant to be fun, just useful. Fades need it to remove heavy equipment from marine team. Heavy armour marines cost 75 resources each, so a fade only needs to kill 150% its cost to slowly wear down marine team. Removing acid rockets would make fades useless.
It's a fact.
Heh, I'm done posting in here. Nobodys seeing 'my' point of the idea. Its not just me who feels this way to, atleast 4 other people within this whole topic have made their posts. Yet your not listening to the OTHER players of the game, and just yourself and whoever goes with your idea.
<b> If it ain't broke, don't fix it. </b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're exactly right, the onos would be weaker if those 2 abilities were removed - IF everything else stayed the same... What you're failing to understand is that other things about the onos can be changed.
Devour and stomp are - as I said 1) a bit silly and 2) not very fun. I think that the onos would be far more exciting if it beat the crap out of things without having to stand around paralyzing a few enemies, eating one, and running away to cower in a corner. That is what the onos does quite a bit.
So if they are removed, the onos must be made stronger in other ways. NS2 is a new game. This means things are not going to be exactly the same as before.
Point being - the onos is broken. It should be fixed.
As we've learned by now, though - you have a different opinion.
What's weird is that this isn't the first time I've seen this on these boards...
1) no one sees your point because you havn't really given a good reason or explanation. your 'point' so far has simply been
'devour is integral to onos'
are you saying that any ability should be used for ns2 simply because it was used in ns1? if so, i think thats a very weak arguement lol. maybe come up with some reasons to back it up from a gameplay perspective. I personally love devour myself but from the point of view of gameplay i think it shoudl go.
2) how do u know whether people are listening or not in a forum. just because they are not drawn to your opinion that devour shoudl stay does not mean they are not listening. you may not be as convincing as you believe :p! mhehe
3 Main roles for Onos that have been brought up:
<b>-Meat-shield for teammates and structures
-Damage dealing Battering Rams (players and seige)
-anit-HA</b>
<b>-Meatshield</b>
I find the idea of the Onos taking a lot less damage from the front and being able to act as a shield for the teammates and structures interesting. But it could lead to the onos being very one dimensional. Instead of this being an innate ability, make it an activated ability...like a stance. Lets call it defensive stance, and a player can quickly switch between normal and defensive stance (a couple seconds). In defensive stance the onos tilts his head forward slightly and those boney armored carapace frills pop out making a shield. From the front, the onos takes almost no damage from light fire, and little from heavy. However, in this stance the onos moves slower, and exposes a soft spot in the back of his head. It could look like a big red gland for easy identification. When the gland is shot it does significant damage, but more importantly after taking 3 hits or so it pops him back into normal stance. And if the onos was taking a lot fire, he will suddenly find himself taking a lot of damage. And the onos can not go back into normal stance for a period of time (say 5-10 seconds).
Overall, this defensive stance becomes a tool for a good player to make good use, instead of boxing the onos into a limited role.
<b>-Battering ram</b>
In its normal stance, the onos player should instead of turtling, want to charge head first and dish out damage. I also like the Rage meter idea, but someone else brought up that that the more damage you take and more of the rage meter goes up, the more damage you dish out and maybe increased movement speed. This will encourage berserker like onos, going into battle head first bashing down rines...which we all want to see. The onos will not build up rage in defensive stance, only in normal stance.
<b>-HA denial</b>
Finally the controversial one. Onos taking out HA by devouring them, or stunning them
First devouring, it seems the devs want to keep devour. I frankly dont want to see it go, however I realize that its has major faults and could be improved. The no fun factor of being devoured is something you can not casually dismiss. NS2 will be played by a much wider population of players then NS, and the truth is devour is not a "fun" mechanic, and most people will find it annoying. But with a few simple adjustments, I think you can keep the role of devour, while not alienating players.
Some ground rules. Devour is for taking out HA, keep that. But devour should also have some counters, and not be stupid easy one hit kills, put some skill into it.
To devour someone, that player must have been taken down to at least 75%. Why? First it makes sense that the onos player wants to eat a weaken foes since most predators do, but looking at gameplay, it adds some thought process for the onos player on who and how to devour someone. An onos player could also work in tandem with lurks. The lurks parasite them which adds a colored coded damage reading (ala L4D) so the ono player can quickly single out damaged HAs. It promotes player skill and teamwork...win-win.
Second, after the onos player devours someone, the onos automatically pops into defensive stance for the duration of the 'digestion'. Again Why? First it also makes sense...predators usually go hide after a kill to digest. But more importantly it prevents an onos player from trashing entire squads directly after a devour, and it discourages hit and run devour tactics. Hit and run is still possible but harder...for several reasons. In defensive mode you move slightly slower, plus the gland is exposed. If you run away you'll expose the gland. Once the gland is hit several times, the onos player goes back into normal stance. This forces the onos to automatically regurgitate the devoured player. So if the onos player want to run away, make sure not to give other player free shot to the back.
Now, about that poor devoured player. Give the devoured player the option to "tap out" and quickly respawn if they want. The drawback to doing that is respawned player will not have the option to select HA for 20 secs after respawning (and possibly other upgrades). Justify it any way you want. This effectively deprives the marine team of HA after a devour, and keeps the devour its anti-HA role.
As for onos stunning marines...I think its more engaging for everyon if Onos crashes into and knocks back sqauds of marines in all directions. This isolates them so that the Onos player teammates can pick them off. Of course the act of knocking them back balances itself, since you knock them away from the onos, and then the onos has to run up to them again. Anyone who has played a tank in L4D understands this perfectly. This will affect HA more since they are slower moving and easier targets to crash into.
Finally, a new role for the Onos that I don't think has been brought up in this thread. An APC-like ability for the onos to transport Lurks. Imagine finding an Onos crashing into a squad, and out pops 2-3 skulks from it sides. These are small compartments within the Onos carapace for small skulks to hide and shield itself from fire...and later pop out and ambush marine players. It would promote cohesion and teamwork on the Kharaa side, and only good can come from it imo.
We're not debating that the abilities be removed from NS1 (though personally I'd love to see them gone there too). You seem to be under the impression that NS2 will be NS1 with new graphics. Now if that were the case, you'd be completely right: the Onos would be more or less useless. But that's not the case, and I think deep down you know that. We know absolutely nothing about the Oni's abilities and stats in NS2; for all we know they could have triple the HP they do right now and twice the speed, along with an ability that lets them pin marines to the ground and stomp on them. It's all up in the air until the alpha and beta kicks off.
Just because something has a specialty in NS1 doesn't mean that they will have the same mechanic or feature in NS2. Times change. Back in 1.0 Fades were ranged specialists built around acid rocket spam; nowdays they're CC monsters built around blink and Focus. Lerks once upon a time downed turret factories from afar with spikes; now their role is much more support orientated. Evolve.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Oh snap.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--><!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Crackle, AND Pop.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<a href="http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=snap+crackle+and+pop&meta=" target="_blank">Inside joke</a>.
<!--quoteo(post=1713152:date=Jun 21 2009, 12:21 AM:name=Vman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vman @ Jun 21 2009, 12:21 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713152"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I know things can be removed, I know they CAN. But it is appart of their structure. So what is your point?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We can <b>change</b>! I know we CAN! Can I get an AMEN, brothers?
Devour is not meant to kill marines. Devour is meant to delay marines. One more marine in a stomach is one less spawning in. If newer players realised this, then casual endgames would move a lot faster because you'd no longer have the lunch queue of Onos at the door to the base.
Think about it - how many times do you see a group of Onos snatch and run one at a time? Now compare that with the mental image of all those Onos rushing base at once, Goring and Charging all in their path. Which sounds truer to the concept?
Personally, I would lower Devour damage and/or increase digestion time (not always the same), combined with a much MUCH easier Devour system (I'm thinking autohit), with a corresponding increase in health (while digesting) and gore damage (in general). That way, people devour as an opportunity and not as the be all and end all.
If there were a proper physics model for Charge, you wouldn't even need to up the Gore damage - you would have the perfect tank for breaking turret farms and Heavy trains. Arguably the endgame strategy that the Onos is designed to counter.
Does this unbalance the game? I don't believe so. People who know how to devour can do it on command, and most players know how to try and dodge. New players struggle with the counterintuitive aiming of Devour. Making it autohit, or similar, just makes it easier for new folk to do their job without disadvantaging better players. We need to move away from Snatch and Run and move towards Charge the Base.
What I'm saying is that if you balanced NS around some form of class progression, you'd end up with a different game. Some sort of first-person role playing shooter with little tactical depth, since if you want to balance the classes that way, you need to bring their abilities in line with each other, and end up making slightly stronger clones. So, um, maybe you're basing your impressions of the Onos on NS Combat games?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, sorry if I implied that being an onos of 75 res would somehow guarantee performance. I didn't even think it was even possible to turn a complete newb into a veteran player simply by changing the resource cost of the lifeform he chose to evolve into actually. It's obvious that skill plays a factor here. When I say that onos should be the class which dominates, I mean to say that the ability of players who are experts at playing onos should be higher than that of any other class. If a new player goes onos for the first time, I can almost guarantee that he won't get his 75 resources worth.
Does this mean we should declare Fade better than Onos? No, of course not. Player ability is relative and we can't predict the outcome between any two players with any reasonable accuracy, but that doesn't mean the skulk is on even ground with the onos. Not by a long shot. It simply means we must generalize class performance by its resource cost. It means the onos should dominate over the fade and while the fade may have its role as support, ultimately its the onos that's king. How that makes NS2 an RPG I have no idea. I suppose the only thing which makes NS1 not an RPG is because a player can perform better as a fade than as an onos according to your logic? I don't buy it.
Maybe it changed in the past years since I quit active play, but the old teleport mechanic did fit me better and I can't adapt as it takes to much Stamina.
With a supportive Team (read: good Lerks and some Gorges) I was able to turn a Game as Onos, tho.
<b>Note: This post is meant to reinforce the Argument that the usability of a Class is defined by the Player, not the Game's Design</b>
Premises
1. Marines excel in ranged combat while Aliens excel in melee combat.
2. Marines have to balance clustering together to improve firepower vs spreading out and risk being picked out.
I've always felt the onos should be the tank in any alien blitzkrieg operation, though i hated that in NS1 several issues made the onos nothing more than a bullet sponge.
The idea being that the onos forced marines to spread out, only to be picked off individually by aliens.
An Onos is even less viable for a narrow room since all the firepower can be aimed in one general direction.
With regards to the purpose of the onos, assuming developers consider "dictating/designing it such" that a onos should be the blitzkrieg tank, then I have some humble comments.
Suggestions (all suggested by others at some points)
1. A brief invulnerability "weapon" that has a long recharge time. Allows enough time for the onos to make the marines spread out and to absorbe the marine's initial mass fire. (this may be better as it would still be viable if marines were spread out and camping a room)
2. Frontal armour that is impervious to bullets. Marines forced to spread out and flank the onos.
I've come to realise that developers had to balance giving enough health to lead a charge yet not too much that it would be unstoppable unless the whole marine team was there. This is a fundamental issue with game balance. The above suggestions are intended to create a new set of factors in deciding how much health an onos should have.
For debate, assuming the above suggestion/s are implemented, the devs may not have to worry about the health balances as much since
1. recharge time would limit its use and let marines counter attack.
2. It can have a reasonable amount of health without losing its purpose as the lead "tank" in a marine base/outpost push.
3. Frontal armour is not impregnable as marines can still spread out and flank it.
4. Frontal armour adds a new dimension to those long corridor battles. (personally felt that gameplay was not varied enough as aliens didn't have a decent counter against marines in a long corridor.
Just some thoughts, what do you guys think?
Good purpose?
--During normal play, the Onos takes 80% damage on the front armor plate and 100% everywhere else
--While using the charge ability, the Onos takes only 40% damage on the front and only 80% everywhere else
--Since abilities have separate cooldowns now instead of sharing the same energy bar, Charge can have a very high energy cost to limit use while not preventing the Onos from attacking
Even with 40% damage, a solo Onos charging a large stack of equipped marines would go down fairly fast, but if he also had teammates supporting him that extra health would make a lot of difference. For example if theres a Lerk throwing umbra that reduces damage all the way to 13%, and you're not going to be able to shoot through that anytime soon. Even if there's just a skulk pack following and maybe a Fade, the time required to kill the Onos at 40% damage will let his teammates have plenty of time to kill off most of the marines in the process. And if its only a small stack of marines? They better be able to flank him, or else just wait for charge to wear off.