<!--quoteo(post=1712668:date=Jun 17 2009, 03:19 PM:name=Hawkeye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawkeye @ Jun 17 2009, 03:19 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712668"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If a fade is made to always be more effective than the onos, then there's something fundamentally wrong about game balance. I think NS started off well in this sense, but it got to be where the effectiveness of a highly skilled fade player is better than that of a highly skilled onos player largely due to its blink ability. It meant most veteran players favor fade over onos. If I could put my sayso in one change in Natural Selection 2 it would be to not just make classes easy to learn difficult to master, but also that a master player for any given class is only as effective as its resource cost.
Unfortunately I think speed is a concept which can be incredibly advantageous for skilled players and as such, only way for onos to be balanced in natural selection 2 is if onos were NOT the superior higher lifeform available or if the onos was allowed to move very fast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I strongly agree, but would also like to generalize. Speed is a great advantage in multiplayer games. Speed allows you to attack different targets, run away, be more unpredictable. It's not just limited to NS. Often, faster units or classes can be played better by better players. It is MUCH harder to design a slow unit/class that rewards highly skilled player.
Unless it's something like Lerk - deliberately weakish, stripped of high powered weaponry and siege tools.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Infantry in a modern army aren't more effective than tanks, but they are more frequently useful. Tanks project insane amounts of power, but they have limited utility, along streets, in open areas, and for breaking enemy lines. When you're stuck fighting the enemy for every room and hallway, a tank isn't going to be significantly more useful than infantry, but they can certainly help in many cases. Onos aren't able to take down a base by themselves in NS, but if you have onos on your team it makes it a lot easier. It is a conditional unit. That doesn't make it useless or less effective. In a modern army you need infantry to do anything; in NS you need fades.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you really want to be a stickler, an onos is not a tank anymore than a fade is an infantry unit. :P
Though that aside, I see your point and it is true to some extent, but I think the initial purpose of tanks in world war 1 in addition to their obvious role as a mobile bunker was for intimidation. Shooting bullets at something which has little to no effect while putting yourself at incredible risk to do so is a deterent to aggressive warfare tactics. In the face of a incoming tank, are you going to place yourself in a position in which you wouldn't get blown to pieces or are you simply going to take cover and shoot bullets at it? While it's true that infantry serve a role which could not be done by tanks, I think you forget that the main reason you didn't see more tanks in world war 2 was because as you say yourself, a tank costs as much as outfitting 30 infantry.
If you look at the modern United States military forces, single soldiers are doing more and more than a single infantry unit could do due to advances in technology. One of the latest remote-controlled jet fighter plane models are planned to go into full production around 2012. United States has probably thrown millions of dollars into researching technology which allows for remote-controlled jet fighter planes (from which I understand can land themselves without human interaction). Why do you think that is? There are more than enough pilots willing to fly normal piloted planes. The biggest advantage in having a remote-controlled jet fighter is again intimidation. How would you feel if you were the pilot that had to take down a remote-controlled plane? If you win, you did nothing but sink the plane for which they have many others. If you lose, you lose your life.
My point is that I think you'd find that if the United States had no bounds on money, you'd find a good 95% of all actual fighters sent in the field would be remote controlled and without risking a single life because infantry is that fighter unit which derived from older times in which nothing else could wield a sword and a shield and fight. The infantry in today's armies are used more like a police force than fighters, gathering intelligence or moving in after a fight has finished. No point sending in infantry to do something a laser-targetted missile can do in a fraction of a second without losing a single soldier. If world war 2 were refought today with our technology, I doubt the conflict would have lasted more than 3 months.
How did this tie into fades again? Oh yeah right. I don't mean to say that a team of all fades or all onos would be superior to a diversified team, but lets just say your basic cooperative team of all-onos with two fades would likely have no troubles taking down the human team. The reason you don't see that more often ain't because teams with skulks are overall more effective. :P
And borsuk, I think you pretty much hit the mark on that. Take a playable class that has health/armor high enough which moves fast enough, and I think 9 times out of 10, you'll have your most effective fighting class.
Don't try explain things in the NS world by comparing it to the military or the real world for that matter. It is completely out of context. The only reason we use infantry, tanks, planes or whatever unit you want, is because in RL we want to be precise and only kill the opposing army(could be militias, terrorists) and not the innocent people (citizens)... other wise we would just launch a couple of nukes and everything there would be annihilated, end of story; unless the enemy is within our country/ land then we would have to use different tactics.
In the Natural Selection world, ALL of the aliens are enemies, so if it was realistic the "marines" would never port inside the "spaceship" and try to take out the aliens with infantry units and risk having casualties (unless they want to keep the ship intact for later use)... They would just destroy the whole ship with a big boom or something (remotely activate self destruct of the ship). Human life is more precious than some ship, just blow it up and kill them all then make a new one. The latter was only one example, they could also use chemical weapons to clear an entire area without causing physical damage to the structure of the ship; your imagination is the limit as to what they can do without having to rely on infantry units.
<b>But of course this is a game, so it has to be this way lol otherwise it wont be playable.</b>
Now back to the subject, I think the Onos was designed to be a tank that was capable of dealing quite some damage. I remember the old days where the rines would just go "omg onoooos" and start fleeing when they see one. I'm pretty sure that in NS2 the charge ability (which was least used) has been greatly improved and probably causes knockdown; and i'm assuming that a mere skulk wont be able to stop a charging onos anymore lol. I would like to see the stomp ability changed into something that makes more sense, maybe into some kind of AOE melee attack that disorients the targets for a while. Last but not least, devour should definitely stay.
Ahem. <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you really want to be a stickler, an onos is not a tank anymore than a fade is an infantry unit. :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sure that horse is dead? I think it needs another beating quite frankly.
<b>For people who want to remove Devour</b> Devour needs to stay if not remain the first thing open along with gore.
If you remove that, you remove some of the basic things that a onos needs. It needs to have devour for Heavy units, or ninjas, ect. So what if you dont like it. You should think twice before hiding when you hear a onos gut churning and waiting for you to stray off from the rest of your team. personally, Devour can be very useful. In NS1 Heavys cost around 75 res, right? If you add in a good weapon thats alot more. Then if you add a onos devouring that unit, then you definately are hurting the marine team even if you are a hit and run onos.
Hit and runs are not a 'nub' tactic. If your not just going for the stock marines. Devouring lmg marines is a waste of time when you could devour something thats worth upwards of 50-100 res right next to him. Also, if you dont like that 'tactic' then don't go around parading in heavy hmg combo uncautiously , you just turn yourself into a big buffet.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->In NS1 Heavys cost around 75 res, right? If you add in a good weapon thats alot more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Um...not quite. A heavy armor suit costs 15 res, and a complete equipment set for a HA is usually 35 res (armor + gun + welder). You could possibly push that to 45 if hes carrying a minepack too, but the maximum res-density-per-person on the marine team is still less than the cost of a Fade, let alone an Onos.
Thus all alien upgraded lifeforms have to be capable of taking out at <i>least</i> 2 marines before dying to be cost effective, usually far more. Luckily, Fades and Onos are both more than a match for any single marine no matter how far upgraded -- but teams of marines can drop them quickly with the right equipment and tactics.
sorry, i havent had much time to play ns... that and i rarely play marines >.<;
Though this all supports my point of keeping devour. Even for inexperianced players.. if you land a high priority devour your set as far as not being useless.
<!--quoteo(post=1712780:date=Jun 18 2009, 02:12 AM:name=Hawkeye)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hawkeye @ Jun 18 2009, 02:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712780"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you really want to be a stickler, an onos is not a tank anymore than a fade is an infantry unit. :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Obviously oni aren't tanks and fades aren't infantry, I was attempting to use metaphor to lead you to a conclusion. The onos occupies a tactical niche similar to tanks in modern armies. If there was a simple 1:1 correlation between dollar invested and fighting power in all situations, modern armies would probably look like this:
Tank, tank, tank, flying tank, tank, flying tank, water tank, tank tanktanktankt... etc
Instead it looks like this:
Infantry, tank, inf, inf, air calv, air support, tank, inf, inf, inf, etc.
The diverse mixture reflects the reality that armies face very diverse tactical situations. What makes NS a very fun game is that it presents a similarly diverse set of tactical situations. If there was a 1:1 correlation between res spent and effectiveness in any situation, increasing your power as a player would be a relatively boring matter of skulk>gorge>lerk>fade>onos. Instead, there are plenty of situations where a single lerk with skulks can do more than two or three fades or onos. You can't measure whether oni are cost effective simply by comparing how they are used by a skilled player with how fades are used.
You have to think of it on a more holistic scale. More like, on a team with a diverse makeup of skills and classes, does the addition of one onos justify its high cost? Is the onos good at what it specializes in relative to the res spent for its utility?
(Edit: personally, I'd say yes to both questions, although with more reservation when we're not talking about the 6v6 scale NS was balanced around.)
<!--quoteo(post=1712861:date=Jun 18 2009, 03:53 PM:name=Align)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Align @ Jun 18 2009, 03:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712861"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That will make Onos reliant on Devour (like now), which isn't a very pleasing prospect.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then don't play onos? That class is reliant on devour for a specific reason, it is the easyest, quickest way to take out a heavy or other high class units. Its not meant to be pleasing.
I very much like the idea of making the front face of the Onos nigh invulnerable, while leaving the creature weak from behind. This makes it great for taking out non-mobile turrets and bases, but still something that a team will be able to handle. Plus it has the added effect that when an Onos comes in, you'll see marines try to scatter around it, which just has the right "feel" if you ask me.
As for devour, if the point of devour is to get rid of marines expensive equipment, why not just do that directly? Make it so that a marine killed by a charge or whatever has his equipment trampled. Although, I suppose part of the point of devour was also to give marines a chance to rescue said equipment if they ganged up and moved quickly enough.. hmm. Havta think on it more.
My main problem with the frontal faceplate is that it's extremely map-dependent. An Onos would be unstoppable in long tunnels and worthless in open areas. Very hard to balance properly. Obviously the terrain will always affect things but it seems pretty black and white to base an entire class on. It also encourages weird immersion-breaking behavior like backing away instead of running. I'd rather see them have a tanking skill of some kind, like greatly increased resiliance while using Charge.
<!--quoteo(post=1712913:date=Jun 18 2009, 06:53 PM:name=Kwil)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kwil @ Jun 18 2009, 06:53 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712913"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->As for devour, if the point of devour is to get rid of marines expensive equipment, why not just do that directly? Make it so that a marine killed by a charge or whatever has his equipment trampled. Although, I suppose part of the point of devour was also to give marines a chance to rescue said equipment if they ganged up and moved quickly enough.. hmm. Havta think on it more.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The point of devour is also to take a marine out of the game for a little while, though while giving a chance of rescue. Devour is the staple point of a onos' It provides more fear for ramboing marines, and small stock groups. It makes the commander think before ushering up a heavy train [giving every marine a heavy] because of the res cost. Without devour, the heavys would be up with par on a onos, and it would take allot of fear from seeing the onos.
If i see a onos, and im a the only heavy in the group. I know I technically look like a buffet. It makes me not want to just go Leroy Jenkins out in the field and hang back if not teleport back out :/
Personally, If they remove devour I will be disappointed. Because it would be like removing parasite from the skulk. Its an ability that goes hand and hand with the onos. Just as the parasite has its uses. Devour has its own. Parasite is needed to reveal ninja/rambo marines, make marines think twice before trying to go back out while parasited. A onos's devour also makes you think twice before going back out, or where your going.
Devour should be removed because it isn't fun. Nobody should be forced to sit and stare at the inside of an Onos' stomach for 20~ seconds just because they were the unlucky victim, only then to die and wait even longer to respawn. Maybe if a marine that died from devour skipped the respawn queue.
<!--quoteo(post=1712946:date=Jun 18 2009, 11:33 PM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jun 18 2009, 11:33 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712946"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Devour should be removed because it isn't fun. Nobody should be forced to sit and stare at the inside of an Onos' stomach for 20~ seconds just because they were the unlucky victim, only then to die and wait even longer to respawn. Maybe if a marine that died from devour skipped the respawn queue.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Umm, no? Devour should stay. Its meant to take someone out of the game for a pre-disposed time. Its just the whole thing its not meant to be 'fun'.
Its kinda NS's way of making people stick in a group or at least thinking of where your going. You have a better chance of being rescued rather than if you were running down a hall alone that you just cleared and get devoured. Its no differend than L4D's pounce. Seeing as your incapacitated and die unless you are around your teammates. Sure there probably needs to be some form of escape but removing that is just crippling the onos in mine and ALLOT of peoples opinions.
If your devoured, 9 times out of 10 it is your fault.
<!--quoteo(post=1712947:date=Jun 18 2009, 06:49 PM:name=Vman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vman @ Jun 18 2009, 06:49 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712947"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Umm, no? Devour should stay. Its meant to take someone out of the game for a pre-disposed time. Its just the whole thing its not meant to be 'fun'.
Its kinda NS's way of making people stick in a group or at least thinking of where your going. You have a better chance of being rescued rather than if you were running down a hall alone that you just cleared and get devoured. Its no differend than L4D's pounce. Seeing as your incapacitated and die unless you are around your teammates. Sure there probably needs to be some form of escape but removing that is just crippling the onos in mine and ALLOT of peoples opinions.
If your devoured, 9 times out of 10 it is your fault.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a terrible attitude for making a video game. The difference from pounce is that it's a whole lot harder for your team to kill the Onos, more often than not it doesn't happen. And it's completely insane to complain about crippling the Onos when we literally know nothing about its abilities or the rest of the game for that matter.
<!--quoteo(post=1712948:date=Jun 19 2009, 12:13 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jun 19 2009, 12:13 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712948"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That's a terrible attitude for making a video game. The difference from pounce is that it's a whole lot harder for your team to kill the Onos, more often than not it doesn't happen. And it's completely insane to complain about crippling the Onos when we literally know nothing about its abilities or the rest of the game for that matter.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It isn't a terrible attitude, It is quite inventive in my opinion. Who wants to be eaten, obviously you don't and neither do I. So what do we do to avoid that, stick in a group and keep your distance from a onos. If you remove devour you turn a onos into a pinata for knives at certain times. Yes there are differences, but its not out of the league to say it cripples the onos. I'm basing this all of of facts from NS1, I have played on servers which have DISABLED Devour. I speak from personal experience, and from experience of watching. If you remove devour, what on earth will you give the onos to peg off a heavy marine quickly? or to counter balance at least! and why should it be quick? Its meant as I've said before, to take a marine out for a little while and forces the commander to think about what marine he arms with what..
<!--quoteo(post=1712950:date=Jun 18 2009, 07:22 PM:name=Vman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vman @ Jun 18 2009, 07:22 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712950"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->It isn't a terrible attitude, It is quite inventive in my opinion. Who wants to be eaten, obviously you don't and neither do I. So what do we do to avoid that, stick in a group and keep your distance from a onos. If you remove devour you turn a onos into a pinata for knives at certain times. Yes there are differences, but its not out of the league to say it cripples the onos. I'm basing this all of of facts from NS1, I have played on servers which have DISABLED Devour. I speak from personal experience, and from experience of watching. If you remove devour, what on earth will you give the onos to peg off a heavy marine quickly? or to counter balance at least! and why should it be quick? Its meant as I've said before, to take a marine out for a little while and forces the commander to think about what marine he arms with what..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Dying is more than enough of a disincentive for players, there's no need to punish them even further with additional boredom. And you have zero experience in playing NS2. What makes you think any of that old stuff applies? Do you really think it's impossible to balance the Onos with Devour gone?
There are far more frustrating things than being devoured. What would be cool is perhaps some visual indication while being digested as to how close the onos is to dead.
<!--quoteo(post=1712953:date=Jun 19 2009, 12:42 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jun 19 2009, 12:42 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712953"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Dying is more than enough of a disincentive for players, there's no need to punish them even further with additional boredom. And you have zero experience in playing NS2. What makes you think any of that old stuff applies? Do you really think it's impossible to balance the Onos with Devour gone?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I dont think its impossible, but why should it be catered to you? Just because you and a few others feel its 'boring' I've stated before, <b> being devoured isn't meant to entertain you!</b> Really now, none of us besides the devs do. Thusly, I am not arguing upon the knowledge that Devour is or isn't there, I am arguing the right that the onos has to have that move stay where it is.
Again I will say it, since you blatantly are ignoring the facts. Devour is a staple move for the onos! Its like removing parasite, you are changing the class. Sure you can counter balance, but why?
<b>Why fix whats not broken just to suit your needs?</b>
NeonSpyder"Das est NTLDR?"Join Date: 2003-07-03Member: 17913Members
edited June 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1712955:date=Jun 18 2009, 07:51 PM:name=Vman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vman @ Jun 18 2009, 07:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont think its impossible, but why should it be catered to you? Just because you and a few others feel its 'boring' I've stated before, <b> being devoured isn't meant to entertain you!</b> Really now, none of us besides the devs do. Thusly, I am not arguing upon the knowledge that Devour is or isn't there, I am arguing the right that the onos has to have that move stay where it is.
Again I will say it, since you blatantly are ignoring the facts. Devour is a staple move for the onos! Its like removing parasite, you are changing the class. Sure you can counter balance, but why?
<b>Why fix whats not broken just to suit your needs?</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Onos did not initially have Devour, I think it was added into version 2.0 or 2.01 (or was that 2.1?) I'm pretty sure it had a paralyzing projectile that it shot out of it's... *ahem* dreadlocks that could incapacitate jetpackers and make them drop to the ground. I don't think it affected HAs but it did paralyze light marines.
The Onos' natural counter IS the jetpacker and it's good that they removed the paralyzing projectile but I don't know if Devour is the right way to go from there. I think Stomp is still pretty solid of an ability for the Onos to have as it helps them in their role as the HA killer. There really is no other easy way to take out a heavy train then an Onos with devour right now, but it's not cool to see an Onos run in, devour and then charge out like a total pansy. If the Onos can be rebalanced to be an HA-train taker-downer without relying on devour to take out one suit at a time while simultaneously being very careful not to unbalance the Onos for every other situation I think we will end up with a much more solid creature.
It will be extremely difficult to balance of course but I think it needs to be done since it's both boring to be inside an Onos gut for 30 seconds and it's also watering down the reputation of the Onos as the "OHNOOOOES" it used to be back in 1.04 and before where an Onos meant you needed your whole team with HMGs and shotguns to have a chance. (Provided you were aiming for the hidden hitbox...)
With the option of using a completely ground-built custom engine that the NS team now has, the limits as to what the Onos can do have been definitely pushed back. Omnidirectional stomp with matching animation of ground-pounding? Yeah why not. Primal Scream with animation that knocks marines over onto their asses? Yeah probably!
Vman: Chill out a bit, I think you need to recognize that people are trying to balance the Onos in a way that makes it fun and useful for everybody while fulfilling it's role as the meat of the kharaa team. No need to bite Zek's head off for proposing a change to the established order of things.
<!--quoteo(post=1712956:date=Jun 19 2009, 01:12 AM:name=NeonSpyder)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (NeonSpyder @ Jun 19 2009, 01:12 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712956"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Vman: Chill out a bit, I think you need to recognize that people are trying to balance the Onos in a way that makes it fun and useful for everybody while fulfilling it's role as the meat of the kharaa team. No need to bite Zek's head off for proposing a change to the established order of things.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I feel I am quite right. I do realise that people are, but most of these people arent offering things that wont drastically change the onos's roll. Devour is meant to effectively remove units from the game for a pre-disposed time based on their hp. Most of these people are more worried about just sitting there for a few seconds because they made their-self look like the big buffet special with wearing heavy armor, and a hmg. All they can do is complain, like zek. He isnt offering anything that I personally can say is of equal exchange to sate the need to combat heavy units or keep the stratagem similar with how units react and how the commander arms his men. Remove devour, then how will the aliens react to a heavy train? Sure the onos can stomp but in ns1 that wont always work. Devour just seems to be the right thing that a onos needs.
Hit-and-runs are quite useful. It helps out the team alot more than you think. When you devour a unit that is armed with any res-costly weapon it is useful because you are taking that weapon away instead of juts dropping the marine so he or his team-mates can re-arm themselves using that same weapon. Its not a pansy tactic if used for what i mentioned above at least.
<!--quoteo(post=1712955:date=Jun 18 2009, 07:51 PM:name=Vman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vman @ Jun 18 2009, 07:51 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712955"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I dont think its impossible, but why should it be catered to you? Just because you and a few others feel its 'boring' I've stated before, <b> being devoured isn't meant to entertain you!</b> Really now, none of us besides the devs do. Thusly, I am not arguing upon the knowledge that Devour is or isn't there, I am arguing the right that the onos has to have that move stay where it is.
Again I will say it, since you blatantly are ignoring the facts. Devour is a staple move for the onos! Its like removing parasite, you are changing the class. Sure you can counter balance, but why?
<b>Why fix whats not broken just to suit your needs?</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> The Onos didn't even have Devour when NS first came out. And I already told you why fix it - it's not fun. The marines are playing a video game to be entertained. I don't care what it's meant to do, things that detract from the fun of the game should be removed and the game can then be rebalanced as needed.
And I did give a suggestion - Charge could be tweaked to give bonus defense so the Onos can break heavy defenses without getting torn up. Just one idea among many. You're being really narrow-minded to assume that each and every ability is going to be carried over from NS1. For all we know there will be support roles that will help the Onos survive. Better umbra maybe?
<!--quoteo(post=1712959:date=Jun 19 2009, 02:28 AM:name=Zek)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Zek @ Jun 19 2009, 02:28 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712959"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->The Onos didn't even have Devour when NS first came out. And I already told you why fix it - it's not fun. The marines are playing a video game to be entertained. I don't care what it's meant to do, things that detract from the fun of the game should be removed and the game can then be rebalanced as needed.
And I did give a suggestion - Charge could be tweaked to give bonus defense so the Onos can break heavy defenses without getting torn up. Just one idea among many. You're being really narrow-minded to assume that each and every ability is going to be carried over from NS1. For all we know there will be support roles that will help the Onos survive. Better umbra maybe?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, and the developers decided it was the rightful change. Also, I've told you before, <b> it's not meant to be fun.</b> It is a part of the game, just because you find it boring dosent mean squat. Just because its a few boring seconds dosent mean it should be removed. If you hate it that much maybe you should AVOID it more?
Ok, that is A suggestion, but its not a clear suggestion. In my eyes you are still viewed as a nay-sayer. Oh yea, lets give onos umbra :D Something a lerk can spam.... Weee!... I'm not being narrowminded, but your being hard headed. You want devour removed because it takes a few measly little seconds away. A onos is so late in the game that it is unlikely that your going to be on the menu of constant, specially if your smart.
and ill say this again! <b>If it ain't broke don't fix it.</b>
<!--quoteo(post=1712786:date=Jun 18 2009, 03:36 PM:name=project_demon)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (project_demon @ Jun 18 2009, 03:36 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712786"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Don't try explain things in the NS world by comparing it to the military or the real world for that matter. It is completely out of context. The only reason we use infantry, tanks, planes or whatever unit you want, is because in RL we want to be precise and only kill the opposing army(could be militias, terrorists) and not the innocent people (citizens)... other wise we would just launch a couple of nukes and everything there would be annihilated, end of story; unless the enemy is within our country/ land then we would have to use different tactics.
In the Natural Selection world, ALL of the aliens are enemies, so if it was realistic the "marines" would never port inside the "spaceship" and try to take out the aliens with infantry units and risk having casualties (unless they want to keep the ship intact for later use)... They would just destroy the whole ship with a big boom or something (remotely activate self destruct of the ship). Human life is more precious than some ship, just blow it up and kill them all then make a new one. The latter was only one example, they could also use chemical weapons to clear an entire area without causing physical damage to the structure of the ship; your imagination is the limit as to what they can do without having to rely on infantry units.
<b>But of course this is a game, so it has to be this way lol otherwise it wont be playable.</b>
Now back to the subject, I think the Onos was designed to be a tank that was capable of dealing quite some damage. I remember the old days where the rines would just go "omg onoooos" and start fleeing when they see one. I'm pretty sure that in NS2 the charge ability (which was least used) has been greatly improved and probably causes knockdown; and i'm assuming that a mere skulk wont be able to stop a charging onos anymore lol. I would like to see the stomp ability changed into something that makes more sense, maybe into some kind of AOE melee attack that disorients the targets for a while. Last but not least, devour should definitely stay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's odd. Because after reading your whole post I came to the conclusion that they should be <b>removing</b> devour.
I just had a thought though. Rather than remove devour completely, just make it easier to rescue marines. How? Once the onos is done a PORTION of damage (either a static figure, or a portion of current hp - just not killed completely) it'll regurgitate the marine that was in its belly. Then rescuing a marine would be far more achievable, and it'd be more like the l4d pounce example. The marine should still be incapacitated, or perhaps lose its weapons/equipment, so that it can't immediately join the fray against the onos that devoured it. Although it'd be pretty cool to get a revenge kill like that... Could also experiment with slowing the onos when it has devoured a unit (greater mass, lower acceleration), in addition to the above idea, as well as independently.
<!--quoteo(post=1712961:date=Jun 19 2009, 10:41 AM:name=Vman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vman @ Jun 19 2009, 10:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712961"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and ill say this again! <b>If it ain't broke don't fix it.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, stop saying that. You seem to be missing the fact that although you don't think it's broken, <b>others do</b> - people playing the game, for example. It's a difference of opinion.
I think that to improve the Onos, devour and stomp have to be removed. They seem to only be necessary as crutches because the onos is weak. Not only that but they are 1) not fun and 2) not particularly believable.
<!--quoteo(post=1712907:date=Jun 18 2009, 08:35 PM:name=Vman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vman @ Jun 18 2009, 08:35 PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712907"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Then don't play onos?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> "It's terribly balanced and unfun, but you shouldn't complain because you don't have to play it" <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That class is reliant on devour for a specific reason, it is the easyest, quickest way to take out a heavy or other high class units.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is the problem, yes.
<!--QuoteBegin-frostymoose+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (frostymoose)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think that to improve the Onos, devour and stomp have to be removed. They seem to only be necessary as crutches because the onos is weak. Not only that but they are 1) not fun and 2) not particularly believable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Devour and stomp should be removed? If you do that you DO make the onos weak, its like removing blink from a fade or leap from a skulk. <b> Its their specialty! </b> But hey, we can also remove charge and gore and just have the onos stand there and be a expensive meat shield :D. Or better yet, the onos is removed from the whole bloody game and becomes just a mascot like on a American football team :F
<!--QuoteBegin-Harimau+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's odd. Because after reading your whole post I came to the conclusion that they should be removing devour.
I just had a thought though. Rather than remove devour completely, just make it easier to rescue marines. How? Once the onos is done a PORTION of damage (either a static figure, or a portion of current hp - just not killed completely) it'll regurgitate the marine that was in its belly. Then rescuing a marine would be far more achievable, and it'd be more like the l4d pounce example. The marine should still be incapacitated, or perhaps lose its weapons/equipment, so that it can't immediately join the fray against the onos that devoured it. Although it'd be pretty cool to get a revenge kill like that... Could also experiment with slowing the onos when it has devoured a unit (greater mass, lower acceleration), in addition to the above idea, as well as independently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, It could be better if you make it easier to be rescued. <b> That is something I can agree on </b> But maybe not regurgitating the marine. Maybe Every bit of damage the onos takes from a shot/knife from the marine makes it possible for the marine to be Regurgitated? like a 10% possibility. The onos is kinda slowed while he has something in his gut, to my knowledge. If not, then logically there needs to be that.
<!--QuoteBegin-Hiramau+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hiramau)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah, stop saying that. You seem to be missing the fact that although you don't think it's broken, others do - people playing the game, for example. It's a difference of opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wont stop saying it, I do play this game. Daily If possible unless Life says no. which as of late it has, college is around the corner, etc. Some of other people don't think its broken, just browse throughout the whole topic. I have no reason to stop saying.
locallyunsceneFeeder of TrollsJoin Date: 2002-12-25Member: 11528Members, Constellation
edited June 2009
<!--quoteo(post=1713018:date=Jun 19 2009, 09:38 AM:name=Vman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vman @ Jun 19 2009, 09:38 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1713018"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b> If it ain't broke, don't fix it. </b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> This thread is about making the onos better at what he does. You propose his main role should be hit and run on heavy armor so how would you make the onos better at this? Note that better doesn't have to been more effective, just an improvement to gameplay and/or having the onos fit his role better. For example, Make stomp more effective against heavy marines and less effective against light marines. Or instead of having it freeze marines have it do damage to armor only. I think that would be a more interesting solution all around.
Similarly, the side knockback could replace devour which would allow the onos to pick apart groups more quickly(doesn't have to wait for devour) but requires more teamwork to do quickly.
<b>Here is a full topic comment.</b> We don't really see the onos till late in the game, seeing as games dont last more than 15 minutes usually if not a little less [I know some can last hours]. The onos is designed to be the unit you fear the most. When you walk down the hall and see a onos, first instinct in my mind if im alone or in a small group is to call a full out retreat. I feel the onos is fine as is, as its shortly described in the about section of this website/forum.
"Whether you play as one of the elite marine Frontiersmen or the vicious alien Kharaa, ...gigantic Onos that can devour enemies whole."
As you can see, there is no plan on removing devour. That dosent mean that they wont be up for altering it. The onos however, should not be removed. Other Than obvious reasons, look at the forums banner, and how much it is mentioned in certain sections. The devs obviously would not take well to that idea. Its Like walking up to your favorite American football team and telling them to get rid of their mascot, or at least add something to suit your needs.
Devour is a precious role played by the onos. it has so many applications that I find, that removing it is costly to the representation of the life-form itself. The onos SHOULD keep devour. It dosent mean you cant go at it from a different angle and add something to it. Even add conditionary devouring.
"If the onos devours a marine, every bit of damage done by a marine gives it a 3% chance of being regurgitated."
There is a good suggestion right there. Think about it, the onos rushes into a base, full of marines. Devours someone only to have him regurgitated in front of him, it would make the onos put a bit of thought into where and when he devours someone. I really want you guys to stop suggesting removing devour, instead of working on it. Here are a few rolls that the onos plays, obvious ones at that.
I see the NS1 Onos as having two very distinct roles:
--Midgame map controll.-- The onos can easily win a fight with any single marine, regardless of its the marines equipment. Though it will lose against a squad, its survival and ability to take down structures is alot more viable than that of a skulks. The skulks can easily get taken out by a few marines, whilst the onos can be a good distraction and take down res or a priority phase-gate within a hive.
--Marine Weapons controll-- A onos using devour can rush into the marine base if its the right time [i.e: not full to the brim with marines] with just a few marines, and pick off one with a shotgun or any res-costly weapon. Retreat if need-be, or cause a beacon. Thusly 'also' distracting' the marines.
--Team support-- Stomp/Devour can be used to break a good heavy train, or just plain embarrass marines as the onos has a tantrum fit [spams stomp] and lets his team maul the stunned marines. Though jetpacks are a easy counter to this, and a un-stunned hmg will down a onos quickly. The onos in this roll can pick off marines, and offer its own assistance. When necessary he can force the commander to beacon, in order to buy some valuable seconds for the team to build their forces back up, set up defenses 'quickly' in preparation for the next rush.
The onos, is but isnt a tank. If you just rush into a base full of marines. "You-Will-Go-Down!" The onos who runs away, is smarter than the onos who runs into a group of marines only to get shot down. Its allot worse to lose a fool-hearty onos, than it is to lose the running onos because marines are 9 times out of 10 terrified if they arent equipped properly to combat the onos, so intimidation is there, until jetpacks show up.
Speaking in another defense for devour. What part of being devoured is meant to be intertaining, when the gut churns left, or right? My point is, its a brief intermission. If you cant stand taking the few seconds out of the game waiting while being devoured. Then learn to dodge it, I can easily dodge being devoured if its obvious a onos has that intention. As I've said before, maybe every bit of damage that the onos has a 3% possibility to be regurgitated. At least its fair, seeing as all the bullets flying at a onos at any given moment.
The onos' is meant to devour marines, its even stated in the about section. I don't mind other suggestions, but for now lets say removing devour is out of the question. This game isn't all about combat, its about team-work. Yes its tough to counter, though you forget. Heavy armor is a bit tough to counter as well. Skulks cant take them down that easy without being pegged off, fades also have a bit of a tough time hacking through their armor. It seems viable that marines should fear being devoured.
Now there are some fixes to make it alot better, ill even add one more. reduce the onos's already slow base speed by 50%. that way it will discourage most of the things that you hate the most.
As far as being boring. Maybe the devs can do this...
You should be able to thrash around in the stomach, to maybe slow the onos down by another 10-15%? Lets say you get devoured, you should be able to thrash around to irritate the onos. This would infact allow a more viable idea to regurgitate the marine (like 5% chance) per every time you use a set ability that is named 'thrash' or 'irritate'. It would have a cool down so it wasent allowed to be spammed, like once every 30 damage the stomach does to the marine being digested.
Lets just face the music, the onos is a slow beast. A big target and quite "ominously noisy". That is what its meant to be, it sets the mood for the game. Sure there are small spaces, ones the onos cant always get through. Onii can travel only out in the open technically, its not meant to be stealthy, fast, or overly strong. The heavy armor is another thing that you should be targeting. Think about it! How the heck do giant hunks of metal get into a tiny vent? Did the miraculously become samus suits? Honestly, how heavy armors get into vents just boggles my mind.
Comments
Unfortunately I think speed is a concept which can be incredibly advantageous for skilled players and as such, only way for onos to be balanced in natural selection 2 is if onos were NOT the superior higher lifeform available or if the onos was allowed to move very fast.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I strongly agree, but would also like to generalize. Speed is a great advantage in multiplayer games. Speed allows you to attack different targets, run away, be more unpredictable. It's not just limited to NS. Often, faster units or classes can be played better by better players. It is MUCH harder to design a slow unit/class that rewards highly skilled player.
Unless it's something like Lerk - deliberately weakish, stripped of high powered weaponry and siege tools.
If you really want to be a stickler, an onos is not a tank anymore than a fade is an infantry unit. :P
Though that aside, I see your point and it is true to some extent, but I think the initial purpose of tanks in world war 1 in addition to their obvious role as a mobile bunker was for intimidation. Shooting bullets at something which has little to no effect while putting yourself at incredible risk to do so is a deterent to aggressive warfare tactics. In the face of a incoming tank, are you going to place yourself in a position in which you wouldn't get blown to pieces or are you simply going to take cover and shoot bullets at it? While it's true that infantry serve a role which could not be done by tanks, I think you forget that the main reason you didn't see more tanks in world war 2 was because as you say yourself, a tank costs as much as outfitting 30 infantry.
If you look at the modern United States military forces, single soldiers are doing more and more than a single infantry unit could do due to advances in technology. One of the latest remote-controlled jet fighter plane models are planned to go into full production around 2012. United States has probably thrown millions of dollars into researching technology which allows for remote-controlled jet fighter planes (from which I understand can land themselves without human interaction). Why do you think that is? There are more than enough pilots willing to fly normal piloted planes. The biggest advantage in having a remote-controlled jet fighter is again intimidation. How would you feel if you were the pilot that had to take down a remote-controlled plane? If you win, you did nothing but sink the plane for which they have many others. If you lose, you lose your life.
My point is that I think you'd find that if the United States had no bounds on money, you'd find a good 95% of all actual fighters sent in the field would be remote controlled and without risking a single life because infantry is that fighter unit which derived from older times in which nothing else could wield a sword and a shield and fight. The infantry in today's armies are used more like a police force than fighters, gathering intelligence or moving in after a fight has finished. No point sending in infantry to do something a laser-targetted missile can do in a fraction of a second without losing a single soldier. If world war 2 were refought today with our technology, I doubt the conflict would have lasted more than 3 months.
How did this tie into fades again? Oh yeah right. I don't mean to say that a team of all fades or all onos would be superior to a diversified team, but lets just say your basic cooperative team of all-onos with two fades would likely have no troubles taking down the human team. The reason you don't see that more often ain't because teams with skulks are overall more effective. :P
And borsuk, I think you pretty much hit the mark on that. Take a playable class that has health/armor high enough which moves fast enough, and I think 9 times out of 10, you'll have your most effective fighting class.
The only reason we use infantry, tanks, planes or whatever unit you want, is because in RL we want to be precise and only kill the opposing army(could be militias, terrorists) and not the innocent people (citizens)... other wise we would just launch a couple of nukes and everything there would be annihilated, end of story; unless the enemy is within our country/ land then we would have to use different tactics.
In the Natural Selection world, ALL of the aliens are enemies, so if it was realistic the "marines" would never port inside the "spaceship" and try to take out the aliens with infantry units and risk having casualties (unless they want to keep the ship intact for later use)... They would just destroy the whole ship with a big boom or something (remotely activate self destruct of the ship). Human life is more precious than some ship, just blow it up and kill them all then make a new one. The latter was only one example, they could also use chemical weapons to clear an entire area without causing physical damage to the structure of the ship; your imagination is the limit as to what they can do without having to rely on infantry units.
<b>But of course this is a game, so it has to be this way lol otherwise it wont be playable.</b>
Now back to the subject, I think the Onos was designed to be a tank that was capable of dealing quite some damage. I remember the old days where the rines would just go "omg onoooos" and start fleeing when they see one. I'm pretty sure that in NS2 the charge ability (which was least used) has been greatly improved and probably causes knockdown; and i'm assuming that a mere skulk wont be able to stop a charging onos anymore lol. I would like to see the stomp ability changed into something that makes more sense, maybe into some kind of AOE melee attack that disorients the targets for a while. Last but not least, devour should definitely stay.
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->If you really want to be a stickler, an onos is not a tank anymore than a fade is an infantry unit. :P<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sure that horse is dead? I think it needs another beating quite frankly.
Devour needs to stay if not remain the first thing open along with gore.
If you remove that, you remove some of the basic things that a onos needs. It needs to have devour for Heavy units, or ninjas, ect. So what if you dont like it. You should think twice before hiding when you hear a onos gut churning and waiting for you to stray off from the rest of your team. personally, Devour can be very useful. In NS1 Heavys cost around 75 res, right? If you add in a good weapon thats alot more. Then if you add a onos devouring that unit, then you definately are hurting the marine team even if you are a hit and run onos.
Hit and runs are not a 'nub' tactic. If your not just going for the stock marines. Devouring lmg marines is a waste of time when you could devour something thats worth upwards of 50-100 res right next to him. Also, if you dont like that 'tactic' then don't go around parading in heavy hmg combo uncautiously , you just turn yourself into a big buffet.
<b> if it aint broke DON'T FIX IT! </b>
Um...not quite. A heavy armor suit costs 15 res, and a complete equipment set for a HA is usually 35 res (armor + gun + welder). You could possibly push that to 45 if hes carrying a minepack too, but the maximum res-density-per-person on the marine team is still less than the cost of a Fade, let alone an Onos.
Thus all alien upgraded lifeforms have to be capable of taking out at <i>least</i> 2 marines before dying to be cost effective, usually far more. Luckily, Fades and Onos are both more than a match for any single marine no matter how far upgraded -- but teams of marines can drop them quickly with the right equipment and tactics.
Though this all supports my point of keeping devour. Even for inexperianced players.. if you land a high priority devour your set as far as not being useless.
Obviously oni aren't tanks and fades aren't infantry, I was attempting to use metaphor to lead you to a conclusion. The onos occupies a tactical niche similar to tanks in modern armies. If there was a simple 1:1 correlation between dollar invested and fighting power in all situations, modern armies would probably look like this:
Tank, tank, tank, flying tank, tank, flying tank, water tank, tank tanktanktankt... etc
Instead it looks like this:
Infantry, tank, inf, inf, air calv, air support, tank, inf, inf, inf, etc.
The diverse mixture reflects the reality that armies face very diverse tactical situations. What makes NS a very fun game is that it presents a similarly diverse set of tactical situations. If there was a 1:1 correlation between res spent and effectiveness in any situation, increasing your power as a player would be a relatively boring matter of skulk>gorge>lerk>fade>onos. Instead, there are plenty of situations where a single lerk with skulks can do more than two or three fades or onos. You can't measure whether oni are cost effective simply by comparing how they are used by a skilled player with how fades are used.
You have to think of it on a more holistic scale. More like, on a team with a diverse makeup of skills and classes, does the addition of one onos justify its high cost? Is the onos good at what it specializes in relative to the res spent for its utility?
(Edit: personally, I'd say yes to both questions, although with more reservation when we're not talking about the 6v6 scale NS was balanced around.)
Then don't play onos? That class is reliant on devour for a specific reason, it is the easyest, quickest way to take out a heavy or other high class units. Its not meant to be pleasing.
As for devour, if the point of devour is to get rid of marines expensive equipment, why not just do that directly? Make it so that a marine killed by a charge or whatever has his equipment trampled. Although, I suppose part of the point of devour was also to give marines a chance to rescue said equipment if they ganged up and moved quickly enough.. hmm. Havta think on it more.
The point of devour is also to take a marine out of the game for a little while, though while giving a chance of rescue. Devour is the staple point of a onos' It provides more fear for ramboing marines, and small stock groups. It makes the commander think before ushering up a heavy train [giving every marine a heavy] because of the res cost. Without devour, the heavys would be up with par on a onos, and it would take allot of fear from seeing the onos.
If i see a onos, and im a the only heavy in the group. I know I technically look like a buffet. It makes me not want to just go Leroy Jenkins out in the field and hang back if not teleport back out :/
Personally, If they remove devour I will be disappointed. Because it would be like removing parasite from the skulk. Its an ability that goes hand and hand with the onos. Just as the parasite has its uses. Devour has its own. Parasite is needed to reveal ninja/rambo marines, make marines think twice before trying to go back out while parasited. A onos's devour also makes you think twice before going back out, or where your going.
Umm, no? Devour should stay. Its meant to take someone out of the game for a pre-disposed time. Its just the whole thing its not meant to be 'fun'.
Its kinda NS's way of making people stick in a group or at least thinking of where your going. You have a better chance of being rescued rather than if you were running down a hall alone that you just cleared and get devoured. Its no differend than L4D's pounce. Seeing as your incapacitated and die unless you are around your teammates. Sure there probably needs to be some form of escape but removing that is just crippling the onos in mine and ALLOT of peoples opinions.
If your devoured, 9 times out of 10 it is your fault.
Its kinda NS's way of making people stick in a group or at least thinking of where your going. You have a better chance of being rescued rather than if you were running down a hall alone that you just cleared and get devoured. Its no differend than L4D's pounce. Seeing as your incapacitated and die unless you are around your teammates. Sure there probably needs to be some form of escape but removing that is just crippling the onos in mine and ALLOT of peoples opinions.
If your devoured, 9 times out of 10 it is your fault.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a terrible attitude for making a video game. The difference from pounce is that it's a whole lot harder for your team to kill the Onos, more often than not it doesn't happen. And it's completely insane to complain about crippling the Onos when we literally know nothing about its abilities or the rest of the game for that matter.
It isn't a terrible attitude, It is quite inventive in my opinion. Who wants to be eaten, obviously you don't and neither do I. So what do we do to avoid that, stick in a group and keep your distance from a onos. If you remove devour you turn a onos into a pinata for knives at certain times. Yes there are differences, but its not out of the league to say it cripples the onos. I'm basing this all of of facts from NS1, I have played on servers which have DISABLED Devour. I speak from personal experience, and from experience of watching. If you remove devour, what on earth will you give the onos to peg off a heavy marine quickly? or to counter balance at least! and why should it be quick? Its meant as I've said before, to take a marine out for a little while and forces the commander to think about what marine he arms with what..
Dying is more than enough of a disincentive for players, there's no need to punish them even further with additional boredom. And you have zero experience in playing NS2. What makes you think any of that old stuff applies? Do you really think it's impossible to balance the Onos with Devour gone?
I dont think its impossible, but why should it be catered to you? Just because you and a few others feel its 'boring' I've stated before, <b> being devoured isn't meant to entertain you!</b> Really now, none of us besides the devs do. Thusly, I am not arguing upon the knowledge that Devour is or isn't there, I am arguing the right that the onos has to have that move stay where it is.
Again I will say it, since you blatantly are ignoring the facts. Devour is a staple move for the onos! Its like removing parasite, you are changing the class. Sure you can counter balance, but why?
<b>Why fix whats not broken just to suit your needs?</b>
Again I will say it, since you blatantly are ignoring the facts. Devour is a staple move for the onos! Its like removing parasite, you are changing the class. Sure you can counter balance, but why?
<b>Why fix whats not broken just to suit your needs?</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Onos did not initially have Devour, I think it was added into version 2.0 or 2.01 (or was that 2.1?) I'm pretty sure it had a paralyzing projectile that it shot out of it's... *ahem* dreadlocks that could incapacitate jetpackers and make them drop to the ground. I don't think it affected HAs but it did paralyze light marines.
The Onos' natural counter IS the jetpacker and it's good that they removed the paralyzing projectile but I don't know if Devour is the right way to go from there. I think Stomp is still pretty solid of an ability for the Onos to have as it helps them in their role as the HA killer. There really is no other easy way to take out a heavy train then an Onos with devour right now, but it's not cool to see an Onos run in, devour and then charge out like a total pansy. If the Onos can be rebalanced to be an HA-train taker-downer without relying on devour to take out one suit at a time while simultaneously being very careful not to unbalance the Onos for every other situation I think we will end up with a much more solid creature.
It will be extremely difficult to balance of course but I think it needs to be done since it's both boring to be inside an Onos gut for 30 seconds and it's also watering down the reputation of the Onos as the "OHNOOOOES" it used to be back in 1.04 and before where an Onos meant you needed your whole team with HMGs and shotguns to have a chance. (Provided you were aiming for the hidden hitbox...)
With the option of using a completely ground-built custom engine that the NS team now has, the limits as to what the Onos can do have been definitely pushed back. Omnidirectional stomp with matching animation of ground-pounding? Yeah why not. Primal Scream with animation that knocks marines over onto their asses? Yeah probably!
Vman: Chill out a bit, I think you need to recognize that people are trying to balance the Onos in a way that makes it fun and useful for everybody while fulfilling it's role as the meat of the kharaa team. No need to bite Zek's head off for proposing a change to the established order of things.
I feel I am quite right. I do realise that people are, but most of these people arent offering things that wont drastically change the onos's roll. Devour is meant to effectively remove units from the game for a pre-disposed time based on their hp. Most of these people are more worried about just sitting there for a few seconds because they made their-self look like the big buffet special with wearing heavy armor, and a hmg. All they can do is complain, like zek. He isnt offering anything that I personally can say is of equal exchange to sate the need to combat heavy units or keep the stratagem similar with how units react and how the commander arms his men. Remove devour, then how will the aliens react to a heavy train? Sure the onos can stomp but in ns1 that wont always work. Devour just seems to be the right thing that a onos needs.
Hit-and-runs are quite useful. It helps out the team alot more than you think. When you devour a unit that is armed with any res-costly weapon it is useful because you are taking that weapon away instead of juts dropping the marine so he or his team-mates can re-arm themselves using that same weapon. Its not a pansy tactic if used for what i mentioned above at least.
Again I will say it, since you blatantly are ignoring the facts. Devour is a staple move for the onos! Its like removing parasite, you are changing the class. Sure you can counter balance, but why?
<b>Why fix whats not broken just to suit your needs?</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Onos didn't even have Devour when NS first came out. And I already told you why fix it - it's not fun. The marines are playing a video game to be entertained. I don't care what it's meant to do, things that detract from the fun of the game should be removed and the game can then be rebalanced as needed.
And I did give a suggestion - Charge could be tweaked to give bonus defense so the Onos can break heavy defenses without getting torn up. Just one idea among many. You're being really narrow-minded to assume that each and every ability is going to be carried over from NS1. For all we know there will be support roles that will help the Onos survive. Better umbra maybe?
And I did give a suggestion - Charge could be tweaked to give bonus defense so the Onos can break heavy defenses without getting torn up. Just one idea among many. You're being really narrow-minded to assume that each and every ability is going to be carried over from NS1. For all we know there will be support roles that will help the Onos survive. Better umbra maybe?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, and the developers decided it was the rightful change. Also, I've told you before, <b> it's not meant to be fun.</b> It is a part of the game, just because you find it boring dosent mean squat. Just because its a few boring seconds dosent mean it should be removed. If you hate it that much maybe you should AVOID it more?
Ok, that is A suggestion, but its not a clear suggestion. In my eyes you are still viewed as a nay-sayer. Oh yea, lets give onos umbra :D Something a lerk can spam.... Weee!... I'm not being narrowminded, but your being hard headed. You want devour removed because it takes a few measly little seconds away. A onos is so late in the game that it is unlikely that your going to be on the menu of constant, specially if your smart.
and ill say this again!
<b>If it ain't broke don't fix it.</b>
The only reason we use infantry, tanks, planes or whatever unit you want, is because in RL we want to be precise and only kill the opposing army(could be militias, terrorists) and not the innocent people (citizens)... other wise we would just launch a couple of nukes and everything there would be annihilated, end of story; unless the enemy is within our country/ land then we would have to use different tactics.
In the Natural Selection world, ALL of the aliens are enemies, so if it was realistic the "marines" would never port inside the "spaceship" and try to take out the aliens with infantry units and risk having casualties (unless they want to keep the ship intact for later use)... They would just destroy the whole ship with a big boom or something (remotely activate self destruct of the ship). Human life is more precious than some ship, just blow it up and kill them all then make a new one. The latter was only one example, they could also use chemical weapons to clear an entire area without causing physical damage to the structure of the ship; your imagination is the limit as to what they can do without having to rely on infantry units.
<b>But of course this is a game, so it has to be this way lol otherwise it wont be playable.</b>
Now back to the subject, I think the Onos was designed to be a tank that was capable of dealing quite some damage. I remember the old days where the rines would just go "omg onoooos" and start fleeing when they see one. I'm pretty sure that in NS2 the charge ability (which was least used) has been greatly improved and probably causes knockdown; and i'm assuming that a mere skulk wont be able to stop a charging onos anymore lol. I would like to see the stomp ability changed into something that makes more sense, maybe into some kind of AOE melee attack that disorients the targets for a while. Last but not least, devour should definitely stay.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's odd. Because after reading your whole post I came to the conclusion that they should be <b>removing</b> devour.
I just had a thought though. Rather than remove devour completely, just make it easier to rescue marines. How? Once the onos is done a PORTION of damage (either a static figure, or a portion of current hp - just not killed completely) it'll regurgitate the marine that was in its belly. Then rescuing a marine would be far more achievable, and it'd be more like the l4d pounce example. The marine should still be incapacitated, or perhaps lose its weapons/equipment, so that it can't immediately join the fray against the onos that devoured it. Although it'd be pretty cool to get a revenge kill like that...
Could also experiment with slowing the onos when it has devoured a unit (greater mass, lower acceleration), in addition to the above idea, as well as independently.
<!--quoteo(post=1712961:date=Jun 19 2009, 10:41 AM:name=Vman)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Vman @ Jun 19 2009, 10:41 AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1712961"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->and ill say this again!
<b>If it ain't broke don't fix it.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, stop saying that. You seem to be missing the fact that although you don't think it's broken, <b>others do</b> - people playing the game, for example. It's a difference of opinion.
"It's terribly balanced and unfun, but you shouldn't complain because you don't have to play it"
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->That class is reliant on devour for a specific reason, it is the easyest, quickest way to take out a heavy or other high class units.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is the problem, yes.
Devour and stomp should be removed? If you do that you DO make the onos weak, its like removing blink from a fade or leap from a skulk. <b> Its their specialty! </b> But hey, we can also remove charge and gore and just have the onos stand there and be a expensive meat shield :D. Or better yet, the onos is removed from the whole bloody game and becomes just a mascot like on a American football team :F
<!--QuoteBegin-Harimau+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Harimau)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's odd. Because after reading your whole post I came to the conclusion that they should be removing devour.
I just had a thought though. Rather than remove devour completely, just make it easier to rescue marines. How? Once the onos is done a PORTION of damage (either a static figure, or a portion of current hp - just not killed completely) it'll regurgitate the marine that was in its belly. Then rescuing a marine would be far more achievable, and it'd be more like the l4d pounce example. The marine should still be incapacitated, or perhaps lose its weapons/equipment, so that it can't immediately join the fray against the onos that devoured it. Although it'd be pretty cool to get a revenge kill like that...
Could also experiment with slowing the onos when it has devoured a unit (greater mass, lower acceleration), in addition to the above idea, as well as independently.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, It could be better if you make it easier to be rescued. <b> That is something I can agree on </b> But maybe not regurgitating the marine. Maybe Every bit of damage the onos takes from a shot/knife from the marine makes it possible for the marine to be Regurgitated? like a 10% possibility. The onos is kinda slowed while he has something in his gut, to my knowledge. If not, then logically there needs to be that.
<!--QuoteBegin-Hiramau+--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Hiramau)</div><div class='quotemain'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yeah, stop saying that. You seem to be missing the fact that although you don't think it's broken, others do - people playing the game, for example. It's a difference of opinion.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wont stop saying it, I do play this game. Daily If possible unless Life says no. which as of late it has, college is around the corner, etc. Some of other people don't think its broken, just browse throughout the whole topic. I have no reason to stop saying.
<b> If it ain't broke, don't fix it. </b>
This thread is about making the onos better at what he does. You propose his main role should be hit and run on heavy armor so how would you make the onos better at this? Note that better doesn't have to been more effective, just an improvement to gameplay and/or having the onos fit his role better. For example, Make stomp more effective against heavy marines and less effective against light marines. Or instead of having it freeze marines have it do damage to armor only. I think that would be a more interesting solution all around.
Similarly, the side knockback could replace devour which would allow the onos to pick apart groups more quickly(doesn't have to wait for devour) but requires more teamwork to do quickly.
We don't really see the onos till late in the game, seeing as games dont last more than 15 minutes usually if not a little less [I know some can last hours]. The onos is designed to be the unit you fear the most. When you walk down the hall and see a onos, first instinct in my mind if im alone or in a small group is to call a full out retreat. I feel the onos is fine as is, as its shortly described in the about section of this website/forum.
"Whether you play as one of the elite marine Frontiersmen or the vicious alien Kharaa, ...gigantic Onos that can devour enemies whole."
As you can see, there is no plan on removing devour. That dosent mean that they wont be up for altering it. The onos however, should not be removed. Other Than obvious reasons, look at the forums banner, and how much it is mentioned in certain sections. The devs obviously would not take well to that idea. Its Like walking up to your favorite American football team and telling them to get rid of their mascot, or at least add something to suit your needs.
Devour is a precious role played by the onos. it has so many applications that I find, that removing it is costly to the representation of the life-form itself. The onos SHOULD keep devour. It dosent mean you cant go at it from a different angle and add something to it. Even add conditionary devouring.
"If the onos devours a marine, every bit of damage done by a marine gives it a 3% chance of being regurgitated."
There is a good suggestion right there. Think about it, the onos rushes into a base, full of marines. Devours someone only to have him regurgitated in front of him, it would make the onos put a bit of thought into where and when he devours someone. I really want you guys to stop suggesting removing devour, instead of working on it. Here are a few rolls that the onos plays, obvious ones at that.
I see the NS1 Onos as having two very distinct roles:
--Midgame map controll.--
The onos can easily win a fight with any single marine, regardless of its the marines equipment. Though it will lose against a squad, its survival and ability to take down structures is alot more viable than that of a skulks. The skulks can easily get taken out by a few marines, whilst the onos can be a good distraction and take down res or a priority phase-gate within a hive.
--Marine Weapons controll--
A onos using devour can rush into the marine base if its the right time [i.e: not full to the brim with marines] with just a few marines, and pick off one with a shotgun or any res-costly weapon. Retreat if need-be, or cause a beacon. Thusly 'also' distracting' the marines.
--Team support--
Stomp/Devour can be used to break a good heavy train, or just plain embarrass marines as the onos has a tantrum fit [spams stomp] and lets his team maul the stunned marines. Though jetpacks are a easy counter to this, and a un-stunned hmg will down a onos quickly. The onos in this roll can pick off marines, and offer its own assistance. When necessary he can force the commander to beacon, in order to buy some valuable seconds for the team to build their forces back up, set up defenses 'quickly' in preparation
for the next rush.
The onos, is but isnt a tank. If you just rush into a base full of marines. "You-Will-Go-Down!" The onos who runs away, is smarter than the onos who runs into a group of marines only to get shot down. Its allot worse to lose a fool-hearty onos, than it is to lose the running onos because marines are 9 times out of 10 terrified if they arent equipped properly to combat the onos, so intimidation is there, until jetpacks show up.
Speaking in another defense for devour. What part of being devoured is meant to be intertaining, when the gut churns left, or right? My point is, its a brief intermission. If you cant stand taking the few seconds out of the game waiting while being devoured. Then learn to dodge it, I can easily dodge being devoured if its obvious a onos has that intention. As I've said before, maybe every bit of damage that the onos has a 3% possibility to be regurgitated. At least its fair, seeing as all the bullets flying at a onos at any given moment.
The onos' is meant to devour marines, its even stated in the about section. I don't mind other suggestions, but for now lets say removing devour is out of the question. This game isn't all about combat, its about team-work. Yes its tough to counter, though you forget. Heavy armor is a bit tough to counter as well. Skulks cant take them down that easy without being pegged off, fades also have a bit of a tough time hacking through their armor. It seems viable that marines should fear being devoured.
Now there are some fixes to make it alot better, ill even add one more. reduce the onos's already slow base speed by 50%. that way it will discourage most of the things that you hate the most.
As far as being boring. Maybe the devs can do this...
You should be able to thrash around in the stomach, to maybe slow the onos down by another 10-15%? Lets say you get devoured, you should be able to thrash around to irritate the onos. This would infact allow a more viable idea to regurgitate the marine (like 5% chance) per every time you use a set ability that is named 'thrash' or 'irritate'. It would have a cool down so it wasent allowed to be spammed, like once every 30 damage the stomach does to the marine being digested.
Lets just face the music, the onos is a slow beast. A big target and quite "ominously noisy". That is what its meant to be, it sets the mood for the game. Sure there are small spaces, ones the onos cant always get through. Onii can travel only out in the open technically, its not meant to be stealthy, fast, or overly strong. The heavy armor is another thing that you should be targeting. Think about it! How the heck do giant hunks of metal get into a tiny vent? Did the miraculously become samus suits? Honestly, how heavy armors get into vents just boggles my mind.