What is the purpose of the Onos
locallyunscene
Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
Feeder of Trolls Join Date: 2002-12-25 Member: 11528Members, Constellation
<div class="IPBDescription">and is it good at it?</div><!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->How often do you see Onii used used and what are they used for?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->What aspects of the Onos make them good for that role?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->What role do you think they <i>should</i> have and how could they be better at it?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Any other comments?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
- How often do you see Onii used used and what are they used for?
The two most common ways I see onos used are:<ul><li>gore rushing a phasegate while being a meatshield for turret fire</li><li>stomping marines to siege break while being a meatshield for gunfire</li></ul>- What aspects of the Onos make them good for that role?<ul><li> lots of health and armor</li><li> large size</li><li> double dmg vs structure</li><li> stomp</li></ul>- What role do you think they <i>should</i> have and how could they be better at it?<ul><li> Meat Shield<ul><li> Have dmg reduction on head, but dmg increase from behind</li></ul></li><li> Siege Breaker(only with help)<ul><li> Put knock back on gore and charge again, but have it go to side instead of straight ahead. Reduce dmg dealt to rines to compensate.</li></ul></li><li> Static Defence Destroyer<ul><li> Double dmg to structures is enough. However you could always allow a gorge to climb on top and bilebomb <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/siege.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::siege::" border="0" alt="siege.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/turret.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::sentry::" border="0" alt="turret.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tiny.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::onos::" border="0" alt="tiny.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" /></li></ul></li></ul>- Any other comments?
I know knock back on gore was tried, I was there. I still think it was the right direction even if it wasn't the right implementation the first time.
Edit: Discussion on some of these or similar ideas
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=98671&hl=onos++skill" target="_blank">Different Characterization of Onos' Role</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=101191&hl=locational+damage" target="_blank">Locational Damage on Front of Onos</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103362&view=findpost&p=1666074" target="_blank">Onos Troop Transport</a> <_< >_> {<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=103538" target="_blank">Other Link</a>}
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->What aspects of the Onos make them good for that role?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->What role do you think they <i>should</i> have and how could they be better at it?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
<!--sizeo:3--><span style="font-size:12pt;line-height:100%"><!--/sizeo-->Any other comments?<!--sizec--></span><!--/sizec-->
- How often do you see Onii used used and what are they used for?
The two most common ways I see onos used are:<ul><li>gore rushing a phasegate while being a meatshield for turret fire</li><li>stomping marines to siege break while being a meatshield for gunfire</li></ul>- What aspects of the Onos make them good for that role?<ul><li> lots of health and armor</li><li> large size</li><li> double dmg vs structure</li><li> stomp</li></ul>- What role do you think they <i>should</i> have and how could they be better at it?<ul><li> Meat Shield<ul><li> Have dmg reduction on head, but dmg increase from behind</li></ul></li><li> Siege Breaker(only with help)<ul><li> Put knock back on gore and charge again, but have it go to side instead of straight ahead. Reduce dmg dealt to rines to compensate.</li></ul></li><li> Static Defence Destroyer<ul><li> Double dmg to structures is enough. However you could always allow a gorge to climb on top and bilebomb <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/siege.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::siege::" border="0" alt="siege.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/turret.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::sentry::" border="0" alt="turret.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tiny.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::onos::" border="0" alt="tiny.gif" /> <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/pudgy.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="::gorge::" border="0" alt="pudgy.gif" /></li></ul></li></ul>- Any other comments?
I know knock back on gore was tried, I was there. I still think it was the right direction even if it wasn't the right implementation the first time.
Edit: Discussion on some of these or similar ideas
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=98671&hl=onos++skill" target="_blank">Different Characterization of Onos' Role</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=101191&hl=locational+damage" target="_blank">Locational Damage on Front of Onos</a>
<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?s=&showtopic=103362&view=findpost&p=1666074" target="_blank">Onos Troop Transport</a> <_< >_> {<a href="http://www.unknownworlds.com/ns2/forums/index.php?showtopic=103538" target="_blank">Other Link</a>}
Comments
gorges could bile over and around the onos <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/smile-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":)" border="0" alt="smile-fix.gif" /> as well as heal it (provided the onos doesn't get stuck on such a small creature)
And I agree that onos should be a better meatshield. not sure whether to go with locality damage idea or just upping the health on the whole.
One thingy that might be useful is making it more mobile. Give it ability to mow over obstacles better and allow it either to slip through smaller gaps at full speed or give it some way of ducking on many degrees (eg mouse wheel controlling the height of onos' stance).
So how would you make the onos better/more interesting at being a heavy counter?
A basic 'charge' feature (using adrenaline) would basically give it a mobility option at the expense of damage. Some sort of warm up/cool down feature to the 'charge' would stop it from being an easy escape route. This would partially replace stomp by adding knockback and stun to enemies hit by the Onos, making this both an offensive and defensive ability.
I think it should probably look something like:
<b>Abilities:</b>
<b>Gore</b> (Hive0)
As it is now. Bonus damage to structures.
<b>Charge</b> (Hive1)
Preceded by a charge-up where the Onos leans back on his haunches. Gives the Onos increased speed, knockback and stun, but only does little damage. Uses 75% or more of the Adrenaline bar. Knocks over turrets?
<b>Devour</b> (Hive2)
Same as now. Adrenaline use must be balanced against 'Charge' so you cannot Devour and then immediately Charge away. You should have to Devour then wait several seconds at low speed, tanking damage, before being able to Charge away in retreat. This gives the other team significant time to focus-fire on the Onos and kill it. The only thing to stop this from happening would be Alien support, which means teamwork, which is good.
<b>Primal Scream</b> (Hive3)
I think this ability suits the Onos much more than the Lerk. Although the Lerk is the support specialist, the Onos should be leading the charge and its roar/scream would sound a lot more convincing than the Lerk's.
So let's look at this concept of the Onos at his strengths and weaknesses, what he counters and what counters him:
<b>Strengths</b>
- Bonus damage to structures
- Can withstand a lot of damage
- Can displace/stun groups of Marines with Charge
- Leads the assault at Tier 3 with Primal Scream
- Can devour enemy units, removing them from the game unless rescued
<b>Weaknesses</b>
- Slow speed
- Poor aeriel clearance due to low jump
- Trades off mobility for damage per second: cannot run and devour
- Must choose carefully when to use its more potent abilities: cannot 'spam specials'
<b>Enemy Units Countered</b>
- Static defences (Turrets, Elec, Mines)
- Heavy Armour (Devour)
- HA trains (Charge scatters and stuns Marines, making welding more difficult)
- Small groups of Marines with light weapons and armour
<b>Counters to Onos</b>
- Jetpacks
- Resource harassment
- Travelling in numbers
- Heavy weapons
--First Role--
Early to midgame map control. The Onos is almost guaranteed to win a fight vs any single marine, regardless of equipment, and will almost always lose a fight vs three or more marines, regardless of equipment, so the Onos wants to be where the marines aren't. Whenever the marines are pushing as a group, the Onos should be somewhere else destroying all the marine structures left undefended. Skulks can also perform this role, but a single marine left as a guard can deter a skulk while he will just be eaten by the Onos. Bonus points if he was carrying a shotty to make sure he could beat the res-skulks. The Onos is the only alien lifeform with higher base damage than the Skulk, and scores double damage vs buildings, making him exceptionally good at controlling marine structures. Meanwhile the main marine push should be running into resistance from the team's fade and as many skulks / lerks as are available.
--Second Role--
Teamfight support unit, and eventually base breaker.
As awesome as Stomp is, an Onos without backup will still lose to a swarm of marines -- especially Jetpacks but the Onos still has to be cautious even without Jets as a single un-stunned HMG will bring down his health very rapidly. However, if the rest of the alien team is already engaging the marines with units capable of dodging fire and dealing damage, the Onos can use stomp from range and occasionally pick off marines that venture too far from the pack, significantly improving the alien's overall teamfight potential. When necessary the Onos can form the vanguard of a coordinated charge to destroy a single important objective, such as a phase gate or Advanced Armory, but this carries a high risk of Onos death and should only be done for a significant payoff.
--Observation--
When I play Onos I tend to emphasize the first role, but when I see other players using the Onos they nearly always focus on the second role. The biggest drawback to using the Onos for the first role is simply that its so expensive, but its VERY good at that role. Balancing the NS2 Onos primarily around the second role runs the risk of skewing his abilities for the first role to make him either useless or highly overpowered.
Maybe the onos needs an image make over?
The onos looks much stronger than it actually is.
In most games it is reduced to a support role, because it is to expensive to risk fights with multiple marines.
And if you can risk it, the aliens are usually on the winning side anyway.
Early to midgame map control.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I've always felt it has very little to do with the mid-late game (btw, I'd never call any 75 res lifeform "early game", even midgame sounds optimistic) node hitting either. It's simply more effective to go fade a few minutes earlier. By going fade you free up skulks to do the node biting and you've got a versatile defender when the 2nd hive gets attacked. At least I feel it's an unnecessary risk to stick with skulk for 3+ minutes more and lose the rest of the map control.
It makes the game boring for the marines devoured, and extremely tough to counter. Unless you can somehow hem the Onos in like standing a marine in a doorway (which is ludicrous both in how it appears and what is actually happening), there's little to do other than try to chase it down and kill it. It's one of those units that when a good player gets it, the game is usually over. I rarely see a marine team that isn't heavily stacked survive against one Onos, let alone games where two appear.
I'd like it more, as I said, as a siege breaker than an instant-kill over and over, with no real combat taking place. Ways to do this would be to:
A) Flat out remove devour (which seems a last ditch idea to me)
B) Make it so the onos has to 'gore' someone into a wall before devouring, and have the onos 'idle' briefly while he eats the marine
C) Reduce speed while devouring
D) Make devour only work on heavily wounded marines, combined with B or C.
Mainly what everyone fails to point out is that its STANDARD TACTICS!!! Hmmmmm teamplay vs teamplay anyone? Hmmmmmmmmm Lots of marines vs your solo persona... Whodathunkit???!?!? You will and probably should DIE. Team up versus groups of marines ... Multiple lerks, a fade, and a few skulks should kill most groups(15v15 sort of being overlooked here)... The problem with this AGAIN was old engine and bad mechanics with team blocking and such... That AND VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY BAD MAP DESIGN...
ooh and an animation when you get eaten of flying down a tight tunnel into the stomach would be cool so its a little more clear (for all the people i have showed the game to and have said "whoa what happened?" )
Lastly I want to be able to kick my feet through the onos stomach and drive him around like a Flintstones car. Then I will run that onos right back into the base punching all the way so my team can shoot me out of him.
Ha not so big now!
So then the team all get in side and walk their new disguise into the have room. The guy in the front tells the passing aliens "don't go to the marine start, go guard our resource towers I heard them say they are going to rush them"
Then they throw off the skin under the hive " I'll show you Oh Nos #$%@!&s ! "
Bam bam bam
Unlike what fanfic suggested the onos should stay, but be reworked to fit better with the design philosophy of the alien team.
The more the Onos will deal damage, the more it will be resistant to attacks. So pretty much a non-offensive Onos would be very weak, but a rampaging one would be almost unstoppable.
The more the Onos will deal damage, the more it will be resistant to attacks. So pretty much a non-offensive Onos would be very weak, but a rampaging one would be almost unstoppable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's actually a good idea, just as long as there is a cap for the rage so it is possible to stop it. Maybe base the meter on how many marines are within a certain distance, leave it open so the marines will stand a chance if it goes down easier with 1 rine than it would with 2 or 4 marines. Make the onos a squadkill.
The more the Onos will deal damage, the more it will be resistant to attacks. So pretty much a non-offensive Onos would be very weak, but a rampaging one would be almost unstoppable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I like that idea. That could be a very effective onos in the right hands.
The more the Onos will deal damage, the more it will be resistant to attacks. So pretty much a non-offensive Onos would be very weak, but a rampaging one would be almost unstoppable.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd want to switch that around: the more damage the onos takes the more damage it deals.
We already have an issue with extremely fragile but heavy hitting melee classes, where either you hit and win, or you miss once and die. Balancing the onos around the concept of hitting the first time making it even stronger would make it even more of a one-shot unit than it is now where either you take out the entire marine outpost or you're out 75 resources. In a matter of seconds.
Making it deal more damage the more hurt it gets on the other hand would make it more feasible to use in a large scaled battle than it is now without making it overly strong on a player-per-player basis.
I think there could be a balance somewhere with correct values, for example giving onos dmg reduction of 20% is big, but not unkillable. There are quite a few ways you can play around with the meter behaviour to adjust it. It's quite difficult to prove either way without some playtesting though. Now to think of it, there probably are tons of better approaches for this.
Another option could be making the onos have slowly rescharging extra endurance that cannot be healed up by any other way than waiting. That extra endurance would act as an extra layer of carapace and soak up damage. At that point an onos could take a bigger fight once in a few minutes and after that take a few smaller fights depending on his remaining endurance. It isn't nice if onos is forced to sit back and recharge too often though.
--Scythe--
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But lets say we did remove the onos, whos to counter heavys? Fades cant, lerks cant even gas them. Or lets say we remove devour, then where is the aliens defence against a heavy train? A onos without devour is just a big target which is why devour should remain-readily available and require only one hive up.
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Lets face it, the onos is a slow beast, a big target and quite "Ominously noisy". Thats what its meant to be. Sure there are some spaces which are 'hard' for a onos to get into. But thats for the marines security. Onii can only travel out in the open techincally. Its not meant to be stealthy, just as heavy armor is not either. Though yes, heavy armors can get into vents which boggles my mind when they are giant hunks of metal. Heavy armor =/= samus.
That should be removed, why should heavy armor be able to go into nooks and crevaces that only a slender basic marine should naturally fit through?
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Now for those who say devour should be removed: Think about this, instead of just saying "Am I the only one who feels devour needs to go? Intirely."
What is your reasoning? Do you find it boring? I dont think the point of being devoured by a onos is to be entertained. Though anyone who can say somethings wrong should be able to put up something that THEY feel is right.
Like here is a generic example:
Marines hp = 100
They can punch and move about a bit within the onos's stomach, these movements will slow and do some damage to the onos
Marines hp = 55+
The marines movements are slowed down a bit, and thus less hindering on the onos's movements.
Marines hp = 54-30
The marines movements are GREATLY slowed, weakened. So they obviously cant hinder the onos that much.
Anything below 30 hp just means your dead weight.
Please, if you want to remove or alter something.. Come up with an idea to counter and remove the onos or its devour. Personally as i've stated in the beginning I like how the onos is. But you honestly cant think that you will get something replaced by nothing.
Make the Onos smaller, put charge as 2nd weapon (or +movement ability available with one hive) and replace charge with a roll-like movement attack similar to the Sonic of Hedgehog, which can also be used to roll up/down walls in combination with walljump as finisher.
Fun and fast paced..what more do you need? <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/biggrin-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":D" border="0" alt="biggrin-fix.gif" />
And I don't find much problem with the onos' abilities really. Except maybe charge should be able to do knockdown for a short while.