The Case Againt Ninjas
BloodySloth
Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20284Members
Join Date: 2003-08-27 Member: 20284Members
<div class="IPBDescription">in the Pirates vs. Ninjas Debacle</div> This is taken from a discussion I had with one of my school chums through email. It's also the product of a bored mind an a semester course in high school debate. (I posted a new topic so as not to completely go off on a tangent in the photo wars thread.)
"From <a href='http://www.illuminatedlantern.com/cinema/features/ninja.html' target='_blank'>http://www.illuminatedlantern.com/cinema/features/ninja.html</a>
The three main roles ninjas played in actual history, and a brief summary of those roles.
"Siege Warfare: This is by far the most often referenced skill of the ninja. The ability to enter into a castle by means of stealth, and launch a suprise attack on the inhabitants, causing confusion within while the main army storms the castle from without. Typically the ninja party would scale the walls of a castle under the cover of night, then start lighting everything in sight on fire. They would not wear black, but rather, wear the costume of the castle defenders, making it difficult to tell friend from foe, and so make it seem like there is a rebellion within the ranks. Once chaos reigns inside the castle, the army lays siege on its walls from without. If there was any special skill, then, that these ninjas were famous for, this was it. These ninjas were also able to perform valuable services if they were part of the force under siege in a castle. The ninja could sneak out of the castle at night, and steal the banner of the opposing army, and hang it on the battlements in the morning to demoralize the attackers. One source tells of the ninja going out nearly every night from a castle to frighten and harass the attacking army, without doing any physical damage -- however, the troops had to always be on the alert, and being unable to ever get a good night's sleep, the soldiers constantly on edge waiting for an attack all night, they were ineffective when the time came to launch an assault on the castle.
Scouts: Ninjas were often employed to assay the relative strength of the enemy. By one account, a ninja would lay in the tall grass just outside an enemy encampment and remain there until dawn before returning to report. In most cases, however, the scout simply goes on horseback, and is indistinguishable from scouts used in warfare anywhere in the world.
Assassins: This is what the Ninja is known for now. Even in the seventeenth century, the Daimyo feared assassination attempts by ninjas. All of the major generals seemed to have an assassin make an attempt on their life at some point or another. Of course, not all of these attempts are by ninjas, and the most well-known assassination, of Oda Nobunaga, was carried out by one of his generals, and not a ninja at all. In fact, nowhere have a found a single documented successful assassination carried out by a ninja. They were feared throughout Japan for the possibility, but it seems that possibility never became reality. Perhaps it's just like murder today -- everyone fears being killed by some stranger who randomly targets them, but in fact most people are killed by someone they know. The ninja really did try to kill people, though, they just weren't very successful at it. One tactic was to lie down on a battlefield, and when your mark rides through, looking at all the dead bodies, the ninja suddenly springs up and attacks. Nobunaga had some close calls before he met his fate, once being shot twice in the chest, the bullets being stopped by his armor. Later, perhaps learning from the previous attempt, Nobunaga is suprised by three cannon weilding ninjas who try to take him out with a bang. They miss, but kill seven of his retainers. Most ninja assassins were hired by rival daimyo to kill their opponent, without much success. It is this element of ninja skill which has been most over emphasized in our modern understanding of ninja warriors."
Now, considering the fact that pirates are nomadic by their very job descriptions, siege warfare would be rendered a near useless profession. Their scouting abilities would have to be near superhuman, if only for the fact that a ninja hailing from east asia would never be able to disguise him/herself as a pirate from western europe or the carribean isles.
Assassinations would be near useless in a strike against a pirate group anyway, and even so the ninjas never necessarily carried an honorable record in this area of warfare.
Now, I haven't been able to dig up any historical records of ninjas in straight combat (I'm guessing because this just wasnt what they were good at) but to even things out I'll compare the pirates to the samurai which were trained in plain old warmongering, as opposed to the secret agent type role ninjas played, just so the ninjas could hold water.
Now, pirates owned guns. Guns, as you know, were one of the final killing blows dealt to the entire idea of samurai, and thus the ninjas. Even without the guns, the ninjas and samurai had been isolated within their nation for so long that their forms of hand to hand combat had grown into more of an art than an efficient killing style. We see this concept of over-flamboyance due to isolation across many aspects of the ninja (and especially samurai) lifestyle.
Pirates, on the other hand, grew up in a world of constant conflict. This allowed them to adapt a very efficient means of fighting with the enemy, just because they had to in order to live. Not only does their way of life point to a more efficieant combatant, but the record held by some of the more infamous pirates indeed puts any ninja accomplishment to shame:
(From
<a href='http://www.missourireptheatre.org/html/description.asp?uid=1&desc_cat=10' target='_blank'>http://www.missourireptheatre.org/html/des...d=1&desc_cat=10</a> )
Bartholomew Roberts (ca. 1682 – 1721)
When Bartholomew Roberts was a young man working aboard a British merchant galley, it was attacked by two pirate ships and he was taken prisoner and subsequently forced to work aboard the pirate’s ship. Six weeks later, when the pirate ship’s captain was killed, the crew elected Roberts captain. Roberts became the most successful pirate of the following era (c. 1690–1725), plundering more than 400 ships from the coasts of West Africa, Brazil, the Caribbean, and as far north as Newfoundland. His reign of terror finally came to an end when he was fatally shot during a battle with a British warship.
More about Roberts Here:
<a href='http://www.geocities.com/captcutlass/bio/roberts.html' target='_blank'>http://www.geocities.com/captcutlass/bio/roberts.html</a>
Not only were there the mind boggling successes of pirates like Bartholomew Roberts to reckon with, but there is also the fact that pirates like Capt. Henry Morgan actually took over cities on land by force, something ninjas wouldn't even know how to deal with. Pirates at times grew together to become a psuedo army, plundering not only ships on the sea but towns and military garrisons on the land. (From <a href='http://www.piratesinfo.com/biography/biography.php?article_id=35&PIRATESID=28f76affbec264fe1c597f4940d6bbc8' target='_blank'>http://www.piratesinfo.com/biography/biogr...c597f4940d6bbc8</a> )
Now if you want to use the mythical superhuman, unstoppable (and nonexistant) assassin ideal for the ninjas, That's fine by me. But realize that I'll be able to take such liberties with pirate lore, and come up with something just as rediculous."
You can ignore the final paragraph if you want, it was more of a personal blow <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
"From <a href='http://www.illuminatedlantern.com/cinema/features/ninja.html' target='_blank'>http://www.illuminatedlantern.com/cinema/features/ninja.html</a>
The three main roles ninjas played in actual history, and a brief summary of those roles.
"Siege Warfare: This is by far the most often referenced skill of the ninja. The ability to enter into a castle by means of stealth, and launch a suprise attack on the inhabitants, causing confusion within while the main army storms the castle from without. Typically the ninja party would scale the walls of a castle under the cover of night, then start lighting everything in sight on fire. They would not wear black, but rather, wear the costume of the castle defenders, making it difficult to tell friend from foe, and so make it seem like there is a rebellion within the ranks. Once chaos reigns inside the castle, the army lays siege on its walls from without. If there was any special skill, then, that these ninjas were famous for, this was it. These ninjas were also able to perform valuable services if they were part of the force under siege in a castle. The ninja could sneak out of the castle at night, and steal the banner of the opposing army, and hang it on the battlements in the morning to demoralize the attackers. One source tells of the ninja going out nearly every night from a castle to frighten and harass the attacking army, without doing any physical damage -- however, the troops had to always be on the alert, and being unable to ever get a good night's sleep, the soldiers constantly on edge waiting for an attack all night, they were ineffective when the time came to launch an assault on the castle.
Scouts: Ninjas were often employed to assay the relative strength of the enemy. By one account, a ninja would lay in the tall grass just outside an enemy encampment and remain there until dawn before returning to report. In most cases, however, the scout simply goes on horseback, and is indistinguishable from scouts used in warfare anywhere in the world.
Assassins: This is what the Ninja is known for now. Even in the seventeenth century, the Daimyo feared assassination attempts by ninjas. All of the major generals seemed to have an assassin make an attempt on their life at some point or another. Of course, not all of these attempts are by ninjas, and the most well-known assassination, of Oda Nobunaga, was carried out by one of his generals, and not a ninja at all. In fact, nowhere have a found a single documented successful assassination carried out by a ninja. They were feared throughout Japan for the possibility, but it seems that possibility never became reality. Perhaps it's just like murder today -- everyone fears being killed by some stranger who randomly targets them, but in fact most people are killed by someone they know. The ninja really did try to kill people, though, they just weren't very successful at it. One tactic was to lie down on a battlefield, and when your mark rides through, looking at all the dead bodies, the ninja suddenly springs up and attacks. Nobunaga had some close calls before he met his fate, once being shot twice in the chest, the bullets being stopped by his armor. Later, perhaps learning from the previous attempt, Nobunaga is suprised by three cannon weilding ninjas who try to take him out with a bang. They miss, but kill seven of his retainers. Most ninja assassins were hired by rival daimyo to kill their opponent, without much success. It is this element of ninja skill which has been most over emphasized in our modern understanding of ninja warriors."
Now, considering the fact that pirates are nomadic by their very job descriptions, siege warfare would be rendered a near useless profession. Their scouting abilities would have to be near superhuman, if only for the fact that a ninja hailing from east asia would never be able to disguise him/herself as a pirate from western europe or the carribean isles.
Assassinations would be near useless in a strike against a pirate group anyway, and even so the ninjas never necessarily carried an honorable record in this area of warfare.
Now, I haven't been able to dig up any historical records of ninjas in straight combat (I'm guessing because this just wasnt what they were good at) but to even things out I'll compare the pirates to the samurai which were trained in plain old warmongering, as opposed to the secret agent type role ninjas played, just so the ninjas could hold water.
Now, pirates owned guns. Guns, as you know, were one of the final killing blows dealt to the entire idea of samurai, and thus the ninjas. Even without the guns, the ninjas and samurai had been isolated within their nation for so long that their forms of hand to hand combat had grown into more of an art than an efficient killing style. We see this concept of over-flamboyance due to isolation across many aspects of the ninja (and especially samurai) lifestyle.
Pirates, on the other hand, grew up in a world of constant conflict. This allowed them to adapt a very efficient means of fighting with the enemy, just because they had to in order to live. Not only does their way of life point to a more efficieant combatant, but the record held by some of the more infamous pirates indeed puts any ninja accomplishment to shame:
(From
<a href='http://www.missourireptheatre.org/html/description.asp?uid=1&desc_cat=10' target='_blank'>http://www.missourireptheatre.org/html/des...d=1&desc_cat=10</a> )
Bartholomew Roberts (ca. 1682 – 1721)
When Bartholomew Roberts was a young man working aboard a British merchant galley, it was attacked by two pirate ships and he was taken prisoner and subsequently forced to work aboard the pirate’s ship. Six weeks later, when the pirate ship’s captain was killed, the crew elected Roberts captain. Roberts became the most successful pirate of the following era (c. 1690–1725), plundering more than 400 ships from the coasts of West Africa, Brazil, the Caribbean, and as far north as Newfoundland. His reign of terror finally came to an end when he was fatally shot during a battle with a British warship.
More about Roberts Here:
<a href='http://www.geocities.com/captcutlass/bio/roberts.html' target='_blank'>http://www.geocities.com/captcutlass/bio/roberts.html</a>
Not only were there the mind boggling successes of pirates like Bartholomew Roberts to reckon with, but there is also the fact that pirates like Capt. Henry Morgan actually took over cities on land by force, something ninjas wouldn't even know how to deal with. Pirates at times grew together to become a psuedo army, plundering not only ships on the sea but towns and military garrisons on the land. (From <a href='http://www.piratesinfo.com/biography/biography.php?article_id=35&PIRATESID=28f76affbec264fe1c597f4940d6bbc8' target='_blank'>http://www.piratesinfo.com/biography/biogr...c597f4940d6bbc8</a> )
Now if you want to use the mythical superhuman, unstoppable (and nonexistant) assassin ideal for the ninjas, That's fine by me. But realize that I'll be able to take such liberties with pirate lore, and come up with something just as rediculous."
You can ignore the final paragraph if you want, it was more of a personal blow <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
I'm sure I could find boatloads (pun intended) of pirates that did REALLY lousy jobs - if anybody would actually care about them, which is doubtful as they are overshadowed by their more glorious colleagues.
Sneak them on board their ship... start it on fire... assasinate the captian. Chaos... followed by drowning pirates. (yarrrr the scurvy made them to weak to swim!!!)
NINJAS FTW!
Edit: added gorge ninjas
<!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That and the fact that many pirate captains had small fleets instead of single ships, and the fact that (stereotypical scurvy or not) I would imagine many pirates COULD swim, burning a single ship down would only result in the martyrdom of the ninja.
also lolfighter, it is correct that you dont hear about successful individual ninjas. Indeed, I haven't been able to dig up names of any ninjas at all. However, the aftermath of a successful ninja conquest would be apparent, if not blatantly obvious.
On top of this, because of the widespread (yet somewhat unfounded) fear of ninja assassination at the time, any assassination carried out that didnt have known suspects would probably have been blamed on ninjas. This never happened, implying that all successful attempts had obvious culprits behind them.
We all know how horny lumberjacks make you.
<span style='font-size:15pt;line-height:100%'><b><span style='color:red'><i>Exactly.</i></span></b></span>
Ninjas are good, ninjas are cool, but when even they can't do the job, send a Geisha.
Ninja > pirate may be up for discussion, but Geisha > pirate.
Or on rarer occasions, Mockingbirds.
That flash owns! I love the grizzly bears that are on fire <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anyway, some flaws in your logic here
1) You are putting them in the pirates natural habitat and they are (arguably) getting beaten but if you put a pirate in ancient Japan and the ninja's got to fight them the way they normally would then the ninja would win easily. Instead they should be in neutral grounds where either one could employ their specific tactics if they approached the enemy correctly. (If the Pirate has enough bullets then the Ninja has lots of ninja stars, blow darts etc).
2) You said that we should use the average ninja instead of the uber mythical ninja that we all know and love. In that case shouldn't you be taking the average pirate? The untrained, undisciplined tramp that only looks ahead to his next swig of grog or prostitute with battered second hand equipment and missing limbs.
Ninjas are good, ninjas are cool, but when even they can't do the job, send a Geisha.
Ninja > pirate may be up for discussion, but Geisha > pirate. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Amen to that. You'd burn through a truckload of ninjas, but get to the point where you can build one Geisha, and you can kill all the other factions. Seriously, you just wipe out their leaders licity-splick.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cold Nite+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cold Nite)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Do the Geisha's ALWAYS have to kill the client, or is there ever a time where the Geisha can be just a regular prostitute?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Life-blood is the currency a Geisha takes.
C'mon lets be friends. Pirates and Ninjas holding hands ::flower::
I suddenly want to see Adam Ant dressed as a Ninja <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
1) You are putting them in the pirates natural habitat and they are (arguably) getting beaten but if you put a pirate in ancient Japan and the ninja's got to fight them the way they normally would then the ninja would win easily. Instead they should be in neutral grounds where either one could employ their specific tactics if they approached the enemy correctly. (If the Pirate has enough bullets then the Ninja has lots of ninja stars, blow darts etc).
2) You said that we should use the average ninja instead of the uber mythical ninja that we all know and love. In that case shouldn't you be taking the average pirate? The untrained, undisciplined tramp that only looks ahead to his next swig of grog or prostitute with battered second hand equipment and missing limbs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No matter what the actual battlegrounds are, the definition of a real ninja just doesnt point to the conclusion of them winning out. Pirates in history actually did band together into small armies to take over small towns and the like, whereas ninjas, no matter how you slice it, just weren't 'designed', as it were, for that kind of conflict.
And I'm not saying we should use the average ninja, im saying we should use ninjas that actually existed. I'll gladly accept ninjas that pulled off amazing feats if only there was actual record of such a thing happening. The difference between the 'ideal' ninja and some of the pirates that I've used as examples are that there is historical evidence that says these pirates walked the earth and did the things they did.
A side note on ninja stars, just for fun: (from howstuffworks.com)
"Ninja are famous for using shuriken, or ninja throwing stars. These were often small knives or daggers in addition to the well-known star shapes. The stars were very inaccurate, and were usually used as a delaying weapon if a ninja were being chased. Although they had little chance of striking, seeing a sharp metal blade come flying out of the darkness at his face would likely make even the toughest of pursuers hesitate."
throwing stars were not designed to kill, and so they're a poor equivalent to the guns that pirates weilded.
As for using pirates from southeast asia, this would kind of go against the whole argument. The person that comes to mind when most people say "pirate" are the pirates from the Golden Age of Piracy (Blackbeard, the great pirate Roberts and the like) And they all hailed from western europe or the phillipines. SE Asia isn't really looked at in this period of time in piracy.
C'mon lets be friends. Pirates and Ninjas holding hands ::flower:: <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The second they start acting like that I think they'd lose ALL their fans.
I know a ninja named Garret.
I'm not saying you should use SEAsian pirates, I'm saying that if you want to conduct the fight in the traditional western seas then you have to setup another fight in the bamboo forests of japan or, even better, in some castle that is under seige.
Plus, as has already been pointed out, pirates tried to go down in history and their names became famous. Ninja's sought anonymity. You can't compare the two because one has more famous names than the other.
I don't need names, per se, I just want actual events. At the time, because of the widespread fear of ninjas (again) if any evidence was there at all that ninjas in general had something to do with it, it would be sensationalized beyond all rights. It just didnt happen.
Ninjas may have strived for anonymity, but they would still want everyone to know ninjas were at the helm of such a feat. The more terror ninjas struck into the hearts of their enemies, the easier their jobs would be. That and as word spread about a mind bogglingly wondrous job they did at killing some Daimyo, they'd be a more popular choice for mercenary work.
Example (if ninjas as a group had a terrifying reputation)
Ninja: Hi, I'm a ninja.
Japanese Warlord: OMGFEAR! *starts crying*
Ninja: Yep. *stab*
Example No. 2 (if ninjas had no reputation)
Ninja: Hi, I'm a ninja.
Japanese Warlord: That's great. *stab*
Ninja: ****. *dies*
There's a chance the ninja would win yes, but because they are trained in martial arts instead of being raised in a constant life or death situation, the pirates would develope a more straightforward, less artsy form of combat just through living their day to day lives. This actually gives the battle hardened pirate an almost even shot if not a small advantage over the school-trained ninja, technique-wise. And I would think most average-joe type pirates would carry at least one small pistol on them.
@Condizzle:
I'm discussing real pirates vs. real ninjas, not fictitious ninjas, and in this case I'm sorry but you are mistaken. Ninjas weren't immortal by any means.
HA HA you are fooled nite, weak mortal. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
HA HA you are fooled nite, weak mortal. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No I'm saying Condizzle did that to NIL IQUIZZLE on purpose. No one can trust avatars or sigs these days. I learned that after being fooled by petco.
But Nite was joking, so who's really the fooled fool, fool? WHO?