<!--QuoteBegin-BloodySloth+Jun 14 2005, 11:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BloodySloth @ Jun 14 2005, 11:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nil IQ+Jun 14 2005, 11:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nil IQ @ Jun 14 2005, 11:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> What if we say instead of all ninjas versus all pirates, ONE ninja versus ONE pirate, surely that would be a better comparision? In which case the ninja would win, unless the pirate had a musket or pistol in which case the pirate would win. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There's a chance the ninja would win yes, but because they are trained in martial arts instead of being raised in a constant life or death situation, the pirates would develope a more straightforward, less artsy form of combat just through living their day to day lives. This actually gives the battle hardened pirate an almost even shot if not a small advantage over the school-trained ninja, technique-wise. And I would think most average-joe type pirates would carry at least one small pistol on them.
@Condizzle:
I'm discussing real pirates vs. real ninjas, not fictitious ninjas, and in this case I'm sorry but you are mistaken. Ninjas weren't immortal by any means. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You're assuming that the average pirate is a battle-hardened veteran of boarding actions and melee combat, when in reality the "average" pirate was probably a 16-18 year-old dunderhead who managed to get hold of a pointy object and decided to sign up with nice Mr Blackbeard's crew.
The "average" pirate would not own a pistol; they would own, at best, a second-hand, probably rusty sword. Any firearms would inevitably be looted, of pretty poor quality, and probably pretty low on ammunition.
It's impossible to say how the "average" pirate was likely to be outfitted, but it IS well known that many pirates distrusted firearms.... after all, a sword doesn't misfire or jam or stop working if you get it wet.
If we take the average pirate versus the average ninja, the ninja will win. Even though he isn't trained for a fair fight, he will still have an edge over the grog-swilling thug with his rusty cutlass. Speaking of rusty cutlasses, the ninja's equipment would also undoubtedly be superior.
If we take the most elite ninja to ever have existed versus captain Beardbeard, the most fearsome pirate to ever sail the seven seas, the pirate would win, unless of course the Ninja had the oppotunity to sneak up on the pirate, in which case the ninja wins hands down.
If we take ALL ninjas versus ALL pirates, the pirates win through co-ordination and superior numbers.
I think someone has to make a ninjas versus pirates half-life mod.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nil IQ+Jun 14 2005, 01:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nil IQ @ Jun 14 2005, 01:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You're assuming that the average pirate is a battle-hardened veteran of boarding actions and melee combat, when in reality the "average" pirate was probably a 16-18 year-old dunderhead who managed to get hold of a pointy object and decided to sign up with nice Mr Blackbeard's crew.
The "average" pirate would not own a pistol; they would own, at best, a second-hand, probably rusty sword. Any firearms would inevitably be looted, of pretty poor quality, and probably pretty low on ammunition.
It's impossible to say how the "average" pirate was likely to be outfitted, but it IS well known that many pirates distrusted firearms.... after all, a sword doesn't misfire or jam or stop working if you get it wet.
If we take the average pirate versus the average ninja, the ninja will win. Even though he isn't trained for a fair fight, he will still have an edge over the grog-swilling thug with his rusty cutlass. Speaking of rusty cutlasses, the ninja's equipment would also undoubtedly be superior.
If we take the most elite ninja to ever have existed versus captain Beardbeard, the most fearsome pirate to ever sail the seven seas, the pirate would win, unless of course the Ninja had the oppotunity to sneak up on the pirate, in which case the ninja wins hands down.
If we take ALL ninjas versus ALL pirates, the pirates win through co-ordination and superior numbers.
I think someone has to make a ninjas versus pirates half-life mod.
....
I CANNOT believe i'm having this discussion. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I concede that the average pirate was probably not as battle hardened as I stated earlier. However just because they're pirates does not mean that weapon upkeep suddenly goes out the window. Their weapons were what they lived by, and because of this I would expect that they would treat their swords/handguns with a bit more respect than some of the legitimate sea-farers of the time.
And about ninja weaponry, ninjas as a whole didnt have access to the sword caretakers and such that their samurai counterparts were used too; because of this their swords were generally not nearly as sharp. This led to ninjato being used with sawing motions as aposed to the sweeping blows samurai used. Ninja weaponry was a great deal lower in quality as opposed to the samurai warriors of the time. (From entertheninja.com)
<!--QuoteBegin-BloodySloth+Jun 13 2005, 07:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BloodySloth @ Jun 13 2005, 07:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Now if you want to use the mythical superhuman, unstoppable (and nonexistant) assassin ideal for the ninjas, That's fine by me. But realize that I'll be able to take such liberties with pirate lore, and come up with something just as rediculous. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm just trying to use reality as a standard. Kind of silly seeing as it's possibly the most unrealistic situation I can think of, but without it it'll just degrade into an argument of progressively more bizarre retorts.
<!--QuoteBegin-Condizzle+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Condizzle)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It all depends on whether or not the pirates have guns. Ninjas can sword fight, but they can't dodge bullets. (And by the way, Nil IQ stole the sig image from me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Condizzle+Jun 14 2005, 02:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Condizzle @ Jun 14 2005, 02:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Condizzle+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Condizzle)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It all depends on whether or not the pirates have guns. Ninjas can sword fight, but they can't dodge bullets. (And by the way, Nil IQ stole the sig image from me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What sig is that then?
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
edited June 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-Nil IQ+Jun 14 2005, 03:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nil IQ @ Jun 14 2005, 03:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Condizzle+Jun 14 2005, 02:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Condizzle @ Jun 14 2005, 02:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Condizzle+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Condizzle)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It all depends on whether or not the pirates have guns. Ninjas can sword fight, but they can't dodge bullets. (And by the way, Nil IQ stole the sig image from me <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> What sig is that then? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> pffft
you were still compleatly pwnt!
I SAW IT, NIL WAS PWNT BY CONDIE'S NINJA SIG'N!
HE LIKES MEN!
PS: example of a (sig) pirate being pwnt by a Ninja move!
PS: example of a (sig) pirate being pwnt by a Ninja move! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->it'll just degrade into an argument of progressively more bizarre retorts.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Cyndane+Jun 14 2005, 07:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cyndane @ Jun 14 2005, 07:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But bizzare retorts are what make life worth living. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> screw QED
I say QFT!
yah, cmon, remember this is an internet argument.
thus all of your proof on ninjas/pirates is null and void b/c it is based on RL history.
Again, I'm just using reality as a basis. Spewing forth arguments that have no limitation on how rediculous they get just gets boring. I know this because it's happened. It just goes back and forth with one party ending up saying "yeah!? wel blah blah is an incarnation of God!" And the other going " Well my guys are more powerful than god!" "well mine are more powerful than that!"etc etc and its quite dull.
That said, go on with leaving reality aside, but I'll just take it as an implication that you realize real ninjas would lose. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Thansal+Jun 14 2005, 08:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thansal @ Jun 14 2005, 08:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Though there is one pirate who could pwn any one: The Dread Pirate Roberts! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Who may or may not have actually been Anne Bonny in disguise.
If you were to seriously compare real ninjas with real pirates, you <i>can't</i> compare them on the basis of their chances in an individual, 1 on 1 fight. It's the same reason why there's difficulty comparing samurai and ninja - in a fair fight, any samurai would be more than a match for a ninja. The whole thing is that ninja never fought fair.
My point is that it would <i>always</i> be a whole pirate crew verses one, maybe two ninjas were it to actually come to a fight, but a ninja wouldn't ever get into such a situation in the first place (ignoring the obvious reasons). Even if we reduce it to 1 vs 1 (which would almost never happen), it would never be a fair fight. Any sane ninja would only fight on their own terms (and kill their foe unexpectedly), unless they were caught by surprise in which case they'd get their arses handed to them.
While we're at it, shuriken were not the exclusive domain of the ninja - samurai used them as well. Any collection of small metal fragments qualified as shurikens, and were used to temporarily blind one's opponent to gain an advantage in a fight. So a shuriken attack would likely immediately precede slicing the enemy open by more conventional means (ie, a sword).
The thing is, historical records of actual ninja are very vague. There are almost no recorded incidents of confirmed, significant successes; even in their <i>own</i> time ninjas enjoyed a fearsome reputation which they only questionably deserved.
But, like I said in my earlier post, both pirates and ninjas are totally undeserving of the glory popular culture bestows on them. Pirates were nothing but theives and murderers - thy attacked and killed innocent people, sometimes with particular brutality, and there's nothing romantic or glorious about that. Ninja were mostly just scouts or spies, rarely effective as assassins and no match for a trained warrior in a real fight.
<!--QuoteBegin-Gwahir+Jun 15 2005, 02:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Gwahir @ Jun 15 2005, 02:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> but pirates need <a href='http://www.weebls-stuff.com/toons/Mr+Stabby+4/' target='_blank'>earings</a>
edit: keep clicking the... uh... item... at the end. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> What do exploding brains have to do with pirates?
<!--QuoteBegin-Drfuzzy+Jun 15 2005, 01:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Drfuzzy @ Jun 15 2005, 01:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lets get more lumberjacks in and then things will get really messy! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No! They must be stopped! As we speak THEY ARE INFESTING THE INTERNET.
Comments
But Nite was joking, so who's really the fooled fool, fool? WHO? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Don't worry Snidely. She'll never learn. <insert generic good guy superhero end of episode rant>.
There's a chance the ninja would win yes, but because they are trained in martial arts instead of being raised in a constant life or death situation, the pirates would develope a more straightforward, less artsy form of combat just through living their day to day lives. This actually gives the battle hardened pirate an almost even shot if not a small advantage over the school-trained ninja, technique-wise. And I would think most average-joe type pirates would carry at least one small pistol on them.
@Condizzle:
I'm discussing real pirates vs. real ninjas, not fictitious ninjas, and in this case I'm sorry but you are mistaken. Ninjas weren't immortal by any means. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're assuming that the average pirate is a battle-hardened veteran of boarding actions and melee combat, when in reality the "average" pirate was probably a 16-18 year-old dunderhead who managed to get hold of a pointy object and decided to sign up with nice Mr Blackbeard's crew.
The "average" pirate would not own a pistol; they would own, at best, a second-hand, probably rusty sword. Any firearms would inevitably be looted, of pretty poor quality, and probably pretty low on ammunition.
It's impossible to say how the "average" pirate was likely to be outfitted, but it IS well known that many pirates distrusted firearms.... after all, a sword doesn't misfire or jam or stop working if you get it wet.
If we take the average pirate versus the average ninja, the ninja will win. Even though he isn't trained for a fair fight, he will still have an edge over the grog-swilling thug with his rusty cutlass. Speaking of rusty cutlasses, the ninja's equipment would also undoubtedly be superior.
If we take the most elite ninja to ever have existed versus captain Beardbeard, the most fearsome pirate to ever sail the seven seas, the pirate would win, unless of course the Ninja had the oppotunity to sneak up on the pirate, in which case the ninja wins hands down.
If we take ALL ninjas versus ALL pirates, the pirates win through co-ordination and superior numbers.
I think someone has to make a ninjas versus pirates half-life mod.
....
I CANNOT believe i'm having this discussion.
The "average" pirate would not own a pistol; they would own, at best, a second-hand, probably rusty sword. Any firearms would inevitably be looted, of pretty poor quality, and probably pretty low on ammunition.
It's impossible to say how the "average" pirate was likely to be outfitted, but it IS well known that many pirates distrusted firearms.... after all, a sword doesn't misfire or jam or stop working if you get it wet.
If we take the average pirate versus the average ninja, the ninja will win. Even though he isn't trained for a fair fight, he will still have an edge over the grog-swilling thug with his rusty cutlass. Speaking of rusty cutlasses, the ninja's equipment would also undoubtedly be superior.
If we take the most elite ninja to ever have existed versus captain Beardbeard, the most fearsome pirate to ever sail the seven seas, the pirate would win, unless of course the Ninja had the oppotunity to sneak up on the pirate, in which case the ninja wins hands down.
If we take ALL ninjas versus ALL pirates, the pirates win through co-ordination and superior numbers.
I think someone has to make a ninjas versus pirates half-life mod.
....
I CANNOT believe i'm having this discussion. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I concede that the average pirate was probably not as battle hardened as I stated earlier. However just because they're pirates does not mean that weapon upkeep suddenly goes out the window. Their weapons were what they lived by, and because of this I would expect that they would treat their swords/handguns with a bit more respect than some of the legitimate sea-farers of the time.
And about ninja weaponry, ninjas as a whole didnt have access to the sword caretakers and such that their samurai counterparts were used too; because of this their swords were generally not nearly as sharp. This led to ninjato being used with sawing motions as aposed to the sweeping blows samurai used. Ninja weaponry was a great deal lower in quality as opposed to the samurai warriors of the time. (From entertheninja.com)
REALITY HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TEH INTRAWEB!
thus Ninjas and pirates pwn you.
and Pimps pwn all
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm just trying to use reality as a standard. Kind of silly seeing as it's possibly the most unrealistic situation I can think of, but without it it'll just degrade into an argument of progressively more bizarre retorts.
What sig is that then?
What sig is that then? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
pffft
you were still compleatly pwnt!
I SAW IT, NIL WAS PWNT BY CONDIE'S NINJA SIG'N!
HE LIKES MEN!
PS: example of a (sig) pirate being pwnt by a Ninja move!
you were still compleatly pwnt!
I SAW IT, NIL WAS PWNT BY CONDIE'S NINJA SIG'N!
HE LIKES MEN!
PS: example of a (sig) pirate being pwnt by a Ninja move! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->it'll just degrade into an argument of progressively more bizarre retorts.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
QED.
screw QED
I say QFT!
yah, cmon, remember this is an internet argument.
thus all of your proof on ninjas/pirates is null and void b/c it is based on RL history.
That said, go on with leaving reality aside, but I'll just take it as an implication that you realize real ninjas would lose. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
so do real pirates
as both of them have been compleatly romanticized.
thus, RL has no bearing on anytihng.
Though there is one pirate who could pwn any one:
The Dread Pirate Roberts!
The Dread Pirate Roberts! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Who may or may not have actually been Anne Bonny in disguise.
My point is that it would <i>always</i> be a whole pirate crew verses one, maybe two ninjas were it to actually come to a fight, but a ninja wouldn't ever get into such a situation in the first place (ignoring the obvious reasons). Even if we reduce it to 1 vs 1 (which would almost never happen), it would never be a fair fight. Any sane ninja would only fight on their own terms (and kill their foe unexpectedly), unless they were caught by surprise in which case they'd get their arses handed to them.
While we're at it, shuriken were not the exclusive domain of the ninja - samurai used them as well. Any collection of small metal fragments qualified as shurikens, and were used to temporarily blind one's opponent to gain an advantage in a fight. So a shuriken attack would likely immediately precede slicing the enemy open by more conventional means (ie, a sword).
The thing is, historical records of actual ninja are very vague. There are almost no recorded incidents of confirmed, significant successes; even in their <i>own</i> time ninjas enjoyed a fearsome reputation which they only questionably deserved.
But, like I said in my earlier post, both pirates and ninjas are totally undeserving of the glory popular culture bestows on them. Pirates were nothing but theives and murderers - thy attacked and killed innocent people, sometimes with particular brutality, and there's nothing romantic or glorious about that. Ninja were mostly just scouts or spies, rarely effective as assassins and no match for a trained warrior in a real fight.
edit: keep clicking the... uh... item... at the end.
edit: keep clicking the... uh... item... at the end. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
What do exploding brains have to do with pirates?
No! They must be stopped! As we speak THEY ARE INFESTING THE INTERNET.