<!--QuoteBegin-DarkFrost+Jun 10 2005, 09:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DarkFrost @ Jun 10 2005, 09:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jun 10 2005, 10:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jun 10 2005, 10:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sandstorm+Jun 10 2005, 02:47 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sandstorm @ Jun 10 2005, 02:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Eventually, someone will figure out how to make competitive Combat work. If the Classic Clan community continues to reject Combat at that point, those that want competitive Combat will just give the Classic Clan community the middle finger and form their own clans and leagues. Spewing hatred onto this forum for these people isn't helping your cause any, either. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Competitive combat is a different story. I have in my possession a Metamod plugin designed for competitive 4v4 play. Mp_tournamentmode must be enabled and <ul> </li><li>Aliens are only allowed 1 upgrade per chamber. </li><li>2nd and 3rd hive abilities will cost 2 points each. </li><li>Higher lifeforms are limited to 2 of a possible 3: lerk and fade, lerk and onos, fade and onos. </li></ul>Working on getting this playtested atm. It looks very promising for league play. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is exactly what lumps looking for! =] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> lump approached me but his request really wasn't for competitive play, but more for pubbin. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Lower the max amount of levels to 5 -Lessen the use of resupply (remove / costs 2 points / limit to 1 med per spawn) -Ristrict to 1 level per chamber -Make jp avail on level1 armour (because people still would want to praccy jp) -Not restrict number of lifeforms/team (people like to practice 1 upgrade fade, 2 level lerk) -Hive upgrades cost 2 points. -sg costs 2 points<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why in the world would anyone want to play competitive combat...there are a lot of games that do that ideal 100 times better, cs would be the most popular example.
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jun 10 2005, 08:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jun 10 2005, 08:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Jun 10 2005, 07:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Jun 10 2005, 07:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jun 10 2005, 05:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jun 10 2005, 05:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Jun 10 2005, 02:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Jun 10 2005, 02:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You know....I think it's high time we had a poll about this. It would help put this argument to rest.
Q: Do you: - Play Classic only, and wish Combat were removed from NS - Play Classic and/or Combat, and wish modded NS servers disappeared - Play Classic and/or Combat, but wished the two game modes were separated (meaning, balanced individually) - Play only Combat, and wish Classic were simplified/balanced better - Play everything equally, and really don't care what game type/mods you play
Either the devs won't like what they see, or the hardcore fans of NS won't like what they see, but this needs to be done. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ... and the same 2 or 3 dozen forum users will vote in this poll, or maybe even 4 dozen.
Scientific .... ... .. . NOT! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) 883 people voted in the NS:S poll. Just a few more than a couple dozen. 2) The people who would vote in a poll on these forums ARE the people the devs should be listening to. I've already said this: the vast majority of pubbers who don't come here couldn't give a damn about the balance of the game, they'll play regardless because it's free, and move on. The people here, they don't do that. 3) And YOUR statistics are so much more scientific. I've already said, you can't cite the number of downloads as an idicator of popularity. They dont represent individual downloads, they are the server admins choice (no vote from the players), AND you're not taking into consideration the possibility that a bunch of the people who downloaded the mod hated it, and wiped it from their server.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) Please don't flatter yourself thinkiing 10% of them would vote on what you proposed. You're not Flayra, and the poll doesn't concern source.
2) There are many pubbers of ns that just don't care for forums. At all.
3) My stats showing the number of downloads for the mentioned plugins goes hand in hand with the high number of servers running said mods. Re-read CWAG's thread - that's his beef. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) Please don't flatter yourself into thinking you know what this community wants how it will behave. Obviously, you don't. Also, the <i>possibility</i> of the poll returning uncertain or innacurrate results shouldn't be a reason <i>not</i> to put it up.
2) And I'm willing to bet that the percentage of long-time pubbers who have never visited this forum and/or made an account here is a heck of a lot smaller than the percentage of pubbers who played the game, loved the game, and sought more information about the game.
3) And I say again, that the number of downloads of your bloody plugin does not directly correspond to what the community wants. The number of people playing this mod has not changed at all since you released that plugin. You know what that means? It means your plugin neither drove players away, nor drew them in. There is a huge playerbase who just play whatever the game happens to be at the time without caring one way or another about it, because they'll be moving on to another game in a few weeks anyway. So, like I've been saying, since that particular group of people (which would almost directly correspond to the group of pubbers who never visit this forum) doesn't really care what direction this game goes, why shouldn't we try to please the people who actually DO care what mode they play, or what modifications to the game they have to deal with.
Regardless of what people "want" it all comes down to the server owner. If they want plugins on their server then they will have plugins on their server, no poll results are going to change that.
As for the original topic, yeah, extralevels changes the game a bit too much, it simply isn't anything like the original with such plugins. However, there isn't much you can do to prevent server owners from running it, it's their server.
<!--QuoteBegin-CommunistWithAGun+Jun 10 2005, 12:25 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CommunistWithAGun @ Jun 10 2005, 12:25 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-silverace+Jun 10 2005, 12:14 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (silverace @ Jun 10 2005, 12:14 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I can't believe I'm seeing this. People play what they like to play. If that happens to be Combat, what right have you to **** about they're preference? Chances are if you are a classic purist then you wouldn't want to play with them anyway. If you want classic to be revived then advertise! Make classic less intimidating for new players rather than bashing them for gravitating to the simpler Combat gamestyle. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> classic ns would suck if we had to dumb it down for the butter trolls like electric <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I did not say change classic NS. I said help new players ease their transition into the game. People don't wanna play classic because all the rules and strategy intimidate them at first.
If so, get the clan motivated into extreme activity, then there is no reason to go on a public server.
If not try gather networks, generally have mix's starting 1 an hour, no need to go on publics ever again! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> We've ended up pubbing as a clan 6-7 times because there just isn't enough NS clans around to scrim whenever the hell you want too. That's part of where this whole frigging topic comes from. Granted more active clan member would mean more scrim opportunities there still is going to be times when you can't scrim with people just because everyone isn't around. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then use option 2.
Although, yea, many of them are invite only now. But thats due to the sorry state NS is in at the moment, always hope that it will pull out, and thats with only a little doubt. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> We don't swing that way in my clan plzkthnx. Either way, I personally find it more painful then pleasurefull anyways.
<!--QuoteBegin-PseudoKnight+Jun 10 2005, 10:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (PseudoKnight @ Jun 10 2005, 10:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> For the love of god, stop associating CS with Combat... they are nothing alike. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> They're very much alike.
Two teams against each other, deathmatch style, where one attacks and one defends and the better you do the more you're rewarded.
The only difference is that players respawn and you get to keep your upgrades.
For every similarity, I can name 10 differences. Furthermore, the similarities you pointed out are common in many FPS games out there. The claim that they are similar is completely baseless. Anyone who uses that statement reduces their credibility so I suggest you stay away from it. (You did enough damage already by calling CS and Combat "deathmatch" style gaming. They're not.)
From Steam's 'Browse Games' menu, arranged in order of popularity, first on the list:
Natural Selection blends first-person combat with real-time strategy. It features intense 'marines vs. aliens' teamplay, where one marine can become 'Commander'. The Commander plays from a top-down strategic perspective and leads live players. The aliens can evolve upgrades like Cloaking and Scent of Fear, and can change lifeforms to run on walls, fly and even devour marines whole. NS has atmospheric indoor sci-fi environments full of steam and smoke, and features orchestral music from Jeremy Soule
Well, the advertisement is for FPS-RTS, marine-alien and teamplay. If folks try a game based on the description, it would only be fair to give them what perked their interest in the first place.
<!--QuoteBegin-PseudoKnight+Jun 11 2005, 01:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (PseudoKnight @ Jun 11 2005, 01:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> For every similarity, I can name 10 differences. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> that doesnt mean the idea isnt the same in both.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Furthermore, the similarities you pointed out are common in many FPS games out there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, thats why he said "most popular example".
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The claim that they are similar is completely baseless. Anyone who uses that statement reduces their credibility so I suggest you stay away from it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
crebility in whose eyes? yours? that doesnt matter a lot, since you already proved you cant read.
<!--QuoteBegin-MistenTH+Jun 11 2005, 01:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MistenTH @ Jun 11 2005, 01:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> From Steam's 'Browse Games' menu, arranged in order of popularity, first on the list:
Natural Selection blends first-person combat with real-time strategy. It features intense 'marines vs. aliens' teamplay, where one marine can become 'Commander'. The Commander plays from a top-down strategic perspective and leads live players. The aliens can evolve upgrades like Cloaking and Scent of Fear, and can change lifeforms to run on walls, fly and even devour marines whole. NS has atmospheric indoor sci-fi environments full of steam and smoke, and features orchestral music from Jeremy Soule
Well, the advertisement is for FPS-RTS, marine-alien and teamplay. If folks try a game based on the description, it would only be fair to give them what perked their interest in the first place. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yeah, and when they download and try the game theyre more than likely going to run into some 50lvl spamfest combat extravaganza, and either stick to that or leave ns for good.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-a civilian+Jun 10 2005, 03:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (a civilian @ Jun 10 2005, 03:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> These are the issues I see that with classic NS that would turn away the most casual players:<ul><li>Not easy to learn. Many players stick with Combat because they don't understand classic NS.</li><li>Too much waiting. Going gorge and building things is not a casual player's idea of a fun time. Travel times and gestation times also contribute. Combat, on the other hand, has nonstop action.<ul><li>Simply removing or shortening these wait times would remove much of the RTS aspect of this game, so some other solution would be needed.</li></ul></li><li>Teamwork is required, but is not promoted by the game mechanics. (SentrySteve's point; read his posts on page 2 for more detail.)</li></ul> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> As I mentioned earlier and civ re-interated, combat is far easier to learn than classic. Classic has a steeper learning curve and requires time to learn enough to appreciate the game. Combat is instant gratification, and when modified allows players to get abilities that pretty much make them invincible. I've played in the Aero combat servers a few times, I ended up with over 100 kills each time and less than 10 deaths for just the short games. This gratification is far easier to get than the gratification from a great classic game.
Once one gets the experience for Classic required to understand the game, the teamplay tends to follow suit, it isn't default built into the game so that's it is plainly obvious. Most RTS games simply can't show the teamplay aspect of the game, it is far too complex to show on the surface. One doesn't realize the power of a 3v3 Starcraft:BW game until you play a while and see how well all 3 races mesh into one team for a fight, it can result in awe-inspiring games if done correctly. NS is similar, when the team members work together it shows just how well made the game is. You don't get excellent team games when a bunch of clueless newbies run around in a map they've never seen before as units they've never played as before. It takes time and experience to learn how to work together in a team-based game, the game mechanics DO promote teamwork, but if one doesn't know the mechanics, it's going to be a newb-fest until someone does.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><i>QUOTE (PseudoKnight @ Jun 11 2005, 01:17 AM) For every similarity, I can name 10 differences. </i>
that doesnt mean the idea isnt the same in both. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Nor does anything about the games mean their ideas are the same in both. The concept behind Combat was to strip out the RTS elements in NS so not only can players experience strictly the combat aspect of NS, but so people could actually play on a server in a 1v1, [2v2, etc.] player situation, eventually allowing the server to fill to the point where they could enjoyably play a balanced normal game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><i>QUOTE Furthermore, the similarities you pointed out are common in many FPS games out there. </i>
yeah, thats why he said "most popular example". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It was a general statement directed at the few people who associated NS:Combat and CS in this whole thread and indirectly at all those on these forums and otherwise who continually do so. When Combat was first announced there was a large part of the NS community that considered it "like" CS and consequently from their perspective a bad idea. But to get back to his post, (which I note is tactful in the respect you pointed out) he said that other games do that style of game better, and that's not true. NS:Combat is quite unique for a wide variety of reasons, most of which it got from the original mode. I believe his point was to deligitimize NS:Combat because of the real reason he doesn't like it: the perceived impact on the classic mode.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><i>QUOTE The claim that they are similar is completely baseless. Anyone who uses that statement reduces their credibility so I suggest you stay away from it. </i>
crebility in whose eyes? yours? that doesnt matter a lot, since you already proved you cant read.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->If I mention to a friend that people are saying CS and NS:Combat are alot alike, they laugh. I myself don't respond to 99% of CS/Combat posts so I imagine there are many who feel the same way I do. If you're trying to make a logical argument, you'll lose your impact by making a illogical remark such as comparing CS and Combat.
As for my suggestion about Combat mode, I'll give an old one of mine. Of course, I think the ultimate solution for this would be to bring Combat closer to NS:Classic or seperate it more.
My old OLD suggestion of bringing it closer to the original mode was to utilize the original maps to create a sort of "control" game mode. You setup res nodes at their locations and try to hold as many as you can. There's different options for victory conditions. This uses current content (a plus at the time of my suggestion when no combat maps existed), which allows new players to learn the maps as they are playing a different mode. It encourages the notion of resource gathering amongst new players as well. You'd obviously have to make some sort of interface change to make it incredibly obvious which mode you were in. No reason to go into too much detail, but I thought I'd offer something more than my earlier criticism.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Jun 11 2005, 12:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Jun 11 2005, 12:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jun 10 2005, 08:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jun 10 2005, 08:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Jun 10 2005, 07:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Jun 10 2005, 07:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jun 10 2005, 05:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jun 10 2005, 05:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Jun 10 2005, 02:06 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Jun 10 2005, 02:06 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You know....I think it's high time we had a poll about this. It would help put this argument to rest.
Q: Do you: - Play Classic only, and wish Combat were removed from NS - Play Classic and/or Combat, and wish modded NS servers disappeared - Play Classic and/or Combat, but wished the two game modes were separated (meaning, balanced individually) - Play only Combat, and wish Classic were simplified/balanced better - Play everything equally, and really don't care what game type/mods you play
Either the devs won't like what they see, or the hardcore fans of NS won't like what they see, but this needs to be done. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ... and the same 2 or 3 dozen forum users will vote in this poll, or maybe even 4 dozen.
Scientific .... ... .. . NOT! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) 883 people voted in the NS:S poll. Just a few more than a couple dozen. 2) The people who would vote in a poll on these forums ARE the people the devs should be listening to. I've already said this: the vast majority of pubbers who don't come here couldn't give a damn about the balance of the game, they'll play regardless because it's free, and move on. The people here, they don't do that. 3) And YOUR statistics are so much more scientific. I've already said, you can't cite the number of downloads as an idicator of popularity. They dont represent individual downloads, they are the server admins choice (no vote from the players), AND you're not taking into consideration the possibility that a bunch of the people who downloaded the mod hated it, and wiped it from their server.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) Please don't flatter yourself thinkiing 10% of them would vote on what you proposed. You're not Flayra, and the poll doesn't concern source.
2) There are many pubbers of ns that just don't care for forums. At all.
3) My stats showing the number of downloads for the mentioned plugins goes hand in hand with the high number of servers running said mods. Re-read CWAG's thread - that's his beef. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1) Please don't flatter yourself into thinking you know what this community wants how it will behave. Obviously, you don't. Also, the <i>possibility</i> of the poll returning uncertain or innacurrate results shouldn't be a reason <i>not</i> to put it up.
2) And I'm willing to bet that the percentage of long-time pubbers who have never visited this forum and/or made an account here is a heck of a lot smaller than the percentage of pubbers who played the game, loved the game, and sought more information about the game.
3) And I say again, that the number of downloads of your bloody plugin does not directly correspond to what the community wants. The number of people playing this mod has not changed at all since you released that plugin. You know what that means? It means your plugin neither drove players away, nor drew them in. There is a huge playerbase who just play whatever the game happens to be at the time without caring one way or another about it, because they'll be moving on to another game in a few weeks anyway. So, like I've been saying, since that particular group of people (which would almost directly correspond to the group of pubbers who never visit this forum) doesn't really care what direction this game goes, why shouldn't we try to please the people who actually DO care what mode they play, or what modifications to the game they have to deal with.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Understand first of all it's NOT my plugin, I merely ported it to AMX Mod X as the plugin's author was not able to. Also understand throughout this entire thread I have advocated pro-choice, not pro-plugin. ALL players have this choice when joining any given server to bow out and find another that suits their wants and needs. And all server ops have the same choice - they're going to install what the public wants. My server currently does not run ANY game-altering plugins other than mvm.
If the extralevels2 plugin wasn't so popular my guess is the high number of servers that have it installed simply wouldn't keep it running. So yes, the fact that it's been downloaded over 3000 times is directly related to it's popularity. And according to the high number of posters to this thread that have stated thay can't hardly FIND a server running without it would support that. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If the mod wasn't so horribly destructive to the NS population as a whole, I wouldn't matter. That's why I don't care about lerklift or such, but extralevels ruins the game, and give out a false image of NS. The first thing a new player would do is head out to a populated server. If it's co_, he's in luck he can easily get the hang of it. If it's ns_, he's out of luck, no-one will help him (and that's another problem altogether). That means more people will stick with co_ than stick with ns_. And eventually, those co_ players will want to move on to ns_, and they'll fail miserably because they have no idea what to do, yet think they're good because of their combat past. This is even worse with extralevels because people can easily have abusively powerful upgrades that exist nowhere else, therefore going around the core elements of the game such as taking care of your and your teammate's life, energy, ammo, and armor.
CheeseLork on the ClorfJoin Date: 2003-12-15Member: 24396Members, Constellation
Wasnt Combat supposed to be an "introduction" to ns?
I think thats a main part of the problem...it was just too different from classic to be a good introduction.
see...they left out the whole rts part. Whats left is the action and fps...but that doesnt show you how ns works...leaving a lot of new players who try to change to ns but can't because they need someone to explain them the basics...since co_ didnt do that.
They know how to use upgrades, how to use the lifeforms, that they have to cover the hive/commchair...but they have no clue of
- upgrade times - buildings except the armory, cc, hive (and even there they have no clue!) - res towers...what ns is all about... - strategy ns uses - the whole alien upgrade system - chambers OMG - the gorge! he is able to build stuff! yes! yes he is! - and other stuff
co_ should have been an introduction...but it wasnt. It was just ns minus all these things above.
What could help would be an effective training that gives the co_ players a possiblitie to get the basics of ns.
A tutorial that leads them as quick and intense as possible through the things i mentioned above.
OR: b) more ns-teachers...who help the co_ players to understand ns_...if we would have a lot more of these freindly teachers...something could change. i guess...
<b>This just released: </b> <a href='http://www.modns.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=1768' target='_blank'>GorgZilla, With Objectives and Helpers!</a> FTW! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How To Play: After GorgZilla has been chosen, it's ALL vs GorgZilla (helpers come later), marines must attack hive to remove GorgZilla's shield. Hive has so many lives, after it runs out of lives, GorgZilla's shield is down forever. GorgZilla can DEVOUR marines, they then become a Helper for 1 round. Helpers are smaller, have less HP, and glow YELLOW. Marines must kill GorgZilla, and GorgZilla must kill a defined amount of marines. When GorgZilla glows Green he has shield ON, when its Red, shield is OFF. Stats displayed are HiveHP, Hive Lives, GorgZilla HP, GorgZilla Kills Left, Max Helpers (added after screenshots). Display was moved to the left for easier viewing (as apposed to screenshots). Hope you enjoy this plugin as much as everyone whos played it has!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And you think extralevels2 is controversial?
Some of you really need to step outside your tiny little cramped mind.
The NS team needed the extra players and publicity Combat has brought, whether you like the mode or not, whether those new players are ever going to play classic or not.
With more people that know about the game that's "Natural Selection", hopefully we'll see NS:S, NS under My Games in Steam, and the NS retail game within the near future, with bigger playerbases and funding.
Now don't get me wrong, I don't like the way Combat is played at all, and i'm getting a bit frustrated at the lack of classic players that understand how the game works, but as SentrySteve said, it's partially the games' fault.
Classic is pretty much solely dependant on the players for it to be fun, which is why so many people hop on any random server, find out it isn't fun, and never look back at classic. They prefer a game where the only knowledge you need is "run out of base, point crosshair over alien, click mouse1". And you really can't blame the players/server mods for this.
Classic is infinitely more fun than combat when played right, whether public or competitive, but because there's no tools of any sort (No, minimap and +showscores don't count) to help new players or random teams that don't know each other to enhance teamwork and game understanding, it's also incredibly hard to create a fun classic game, especially on public.
Depot, this is NOT a place a plug new modifications, especially when they deviate from Natural-selection even more than extralevels2 (hard to imagine, but because of your post, we don't have to imagine).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They know how to use upgrades, how to use the lifeforms, that they have to cover the hive/commchair...but they have no clue of
- upgrade times - buildings except the armory, cc, hive (and even there they have no clue!) - res towers...what ns is all about... - strategy ns uses - the whole alien upgrade system - chambers OMG - the gorge! he is able to build stuff! yes! yes he is! - and other stuff
co_ should have been an introduction...but it wasnt. It was just ns minus all these things above.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Combat makes a fairly decent introduction if you look at it other ways. Imagine the most irritating, zoned out, ignoring-his-team, or just plain lame marine you can. Imagine him playing Combat. Yeppers, you've probably seen lots of this before. Now, imagine him playing Classic, without any previous experience. The mere thought of this scenario brings back searing images in my mind of top-down shots featuring marines being cut down and eaten up all over my minimap. I can <i>hear</i> shotguns and grenade guns being picked up just to be dropped on the other side of a chamber barricade just outside of spawn.
Combat provided the new recruits with weapons experience and alien experience (don't forget aliens, though I tend to use marine examples because they're more painful) so that when they hop into the battlefield in Classic, they can at least provide effective firepower while the commander or Gorge takes care of the stuff that they don't know yet. However, it seems that the development team didn't count on the new playerbase that they got: a playerbase that doesn't need weapons training, they need a drill sargeant to smack them silly until they begin to work as a team. Those who <i>do</i> work as a team are often overinqusitive and confused to the point that they freeze, and they want to know what's going on before they go to the flashing blue circle labled "Waypoint."
Combat probably needs to be adjusted accordingly (maybe like PseudoKnight has been suggesting), but that would be an intense overhaul.
<!--QuoteBegin-semipsychotic+Jun 11 2005, 04:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (semipsychotic @ Jun 11 2005, 04:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Depot, this is NOT a place a plug new modifications, especially when they deviate from Natural-selection even more than extralevels2 (hard to imagine, but because of your post, we don't have to imagine). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You're correct. I edited it to remain on topic, thanks. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Look guys, extralevels is here, if server op's want to install it on there servers thats their choice because they pay for the server.
On another note making mods is supposed to be about giving people a chance to make there own game and if someone wants to make extralevels and they enjoy it thats fine.
Lvl 50, /menu, combat is a disgrace to the name of the game. Why it was ever invented or considered a worthy addon to the game is undoubtly farfetched. If you enjoy yourself on those servers, just log out of these forums, never to log back in, and reinstall CS or TFC... You aren't an NS player.
The FAT clan is a lvl 50 combat /menu clan that's going to attempt to play for the competitive community next season, we'll see how long that lasts. ;-)
<!--QuoteBegin-the hole+Jun 11 2005, 10:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (the hole @ Jun 11 2005, 10:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lvl 50, /menu, combat is a disgrace to the name of the game. Why it was ever invented or considered a worthy addon to the game is undoubtly farfetched. If you enjoy yourself on those servers, just log out of these forums, never to log back in, and reinstall CS or TFC... You aren't an NS player.
The FAT clan is a lvl 50 combat /menu clan that's going to attempt to play for the competitive community next season, we'll see how long that lasts. ;-) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's as easy to adapt from playing on a heavily modded server to playing on one that's plain vanilla as it is to adapt from combat to classic, not an issue whatsoever. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jun 11 2005, 09:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jun 11 2005, 09:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-the hole+Jun 11 2005, 10:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (the hole @ Jun 11 2005, 10:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lvl 50, /menu, combat is a disgrace to the name of the game. Why it was ever invented or considered a worthy addon to the game is undoubtly farfetched. If you enjoy yourself on those servers, just log out of these forums, never to log back in, and reinstall CS or TFC... You aren't an NS player.
The FAT clan is a lvl 50 combat /menu clan that's going to attempt to play for the competitive community next season, we'll see how long that lasts. ;-) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's as easy to adapt from playing on a heavily modded server to playing on one that's plain vanilla as it is to adapt from combat to classic, not an issue whatsoever. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Even if they adapt fine, it begs the question of what kind of competitive players (in their right minds) would want to own and run a 50 level /menu combat server?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The FAT clan is a lvl 50 combat /menu clan that's going to attempt to play for the competitive community next season, we'll see how long that lasts. ;-)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jun 11 2005, 09:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jun 11 2005, 09:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's as easy to adapt from playing on a heavily modded server to playing on one that's plain vanilla as it is to adapt from combat to classic, not an issue whatsoever. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Haven't watched much competive play lately, have you?
There's a few combat clans. Almost without exception, they're destroyed on a regular basis in CAL.
It's not an easy transition. It takes dedication and playing NS instead of /menu.
I'm not going to get involved in this argument, but I wanted to comment that Flayra initially disclosed his reasoning behind the creation of combat as a means for servers to run a game that would work with a small number of players until it filled up. As you can imagine, playing an NS map with 3-4 people isn't all that fun. So combat was meant to be something that the server could run until enough people joined so that you could get a good NS game going. I really don't think he expected it to take on a life of its own like it did. As such, the extra mods are really an extension of the game in a direction that he really never intended it to go. (based on what he has said in the past anyway)
Comments
Competitive combat is a different story. I have in my possession a Metamod plugin designed for competitive 4v4 play. Mp_tournamentmode must be enabled and <ul>
</li><li>Aliens are only allowed 1 upgrade per chamber.
</li><li>2nd and 3rd hive abilities will cost 2 points each.
</li><li>Higher lifeforms are limited to 2 of a possible 3: lerk and fade, lerk and onos, fade and onos.
</li></ul>Working on getting this playtested atm. It looks very promising for league play. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is exactly what lumps looking for! =] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lump approached me but his request really wasn't for competitive play, but more for pubbin.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->-Lower the max amount of levels to 5
-Lessen the use of resupply (remove / costs 2 points / limit to 1 med per spawn)
-Ristrict to 1 level per chamber
-Make jp avail on level1 armour (because people still would want to praccy jp)
-Not restrict number of lifeforms/team (people like to practice 1 upgrade fade, 2 level lerk)
-Hive upgrades cost 2 points.
-sg costs 2 points<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Q: Do you:
- Play Classic only, and wish Combat were removed from NS
- Play Classic and/or Combat, and wish modded NS servers disappeared
- Play Classic and/or Combat, but wished the two game modes were separated (meaning, balanced individually)
- Play only Combat, and wish Classic were simplified/balanced better
- Play everything equally, and really don't care what game type/mods you play
Either the devs won't like what they see, or the hardcore fans of NS won't like what they see, but this needs to be done. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... and the same 2 or 3 dozen forum users will vote in this poll, or maybe even 4 dozen.
Scientific .... ... .. . NOT! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) 883 people voted in the NS:S poll. Just a few more than a couple dozen.
2) The people who would vote in a poll on these forums ARE the people the devs should be listening to. I've already said this: the vast majority of pubbers who don't come here couldn't give a damn about the balance of the game, they'll play regardless because it's free, and move on. The people here, they don't do that.
3) And YOUR statistics are so much more scientific. I've already said, you can't cite the number of downloads as an idicator of popularity. They dont represent individual downloads, they are the server admins choice (no vote from the players), AND you're not taking into consideration the possibility that a bunch of the people who downloaded the mod hated it, and wiped it from their server.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Please don't flatter yourself thinkiing 10% of them would vote on what you proposed. You're not Flayra, and the poll doesn't concern source.
2) There are many pubbers of ns that just don't care for forums. At all.
3) My stats showing the number of downloads for the mentioned plugins goes hand in hand with the high number of servers running said mods. Re-read CWAG's thread - that's his beef. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Please don't flatter yourself into thinking you know what this community wants how it will behave. Obviously, you don't. Also, the <i>possibility</i> of the poll returning uncertain or innacurrate results shouldn't be a reason <i>not</i> to put it up.
2) And I'm willing to bet that the percentage of long-time pubbers who have never visited this forum and/or made an account here is a heck of a lot smaller than the percentage of pubbers who played the game, loved the game, and sought more information about the game.
3) And I say again, that the number of downloads of your bloody plugin does not directly correspond to what the community wants. The number of people playing this mod has not changed at all since you released that plugin. You know what that means? It means your plugin neither drove players away, nor drew them in. There is a huge playerbase who just play whatever the game happens to be at the time without caring one way or another about it, because they'll be moving on to another game in a few weeks anyway. So, like I've been saying, since that particular group of people (which would almost directly correspond to the group of pubbers who never visit this forum) doesn't really care what direction this game goes, why shouldn't we try to please the people who actually DO care what mode they play, or what modifications to the game they have to deal with.
As for the original topic, yeah, extralevels changes the game a bit too much, it simply isn't anything like the original with such plugins. However, there isn't much you can do to prevent server owners from running it, it's their server.
classic ns would suck if we had to dumb it down for the butter trolls like electric <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I did not say change classic NS. I said help new players ease their transition into the game. People don't wanna play classic because all the rules and strategy intimidate them at first.
If so, get the clan motivated into extreme activity, then there is no reason to go on a public server.
If not try gather networks, generally have mix's starting 1 an hour, no need to go on publics ever again! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
We've ended up pubbing as a clan 6-7 times because there just isn't enough NS clans around to scrim whenever the hell you want too. That's part of where this whole frigging topic comes from. Granted more active clan member would mean more scrim opportunities there still is going to be times when you can't scrim with people just because everyone isn't around. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Then use option 2.
Although, yea, many of them are invite only now. But thats due to the sorry state NS is in at the moment, always hope that it will pull out, and thats with only a little doubt. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
We don't swing that way in my clan plzkthnx. Either way, I personally find it more painful then pleasurefull anyways.
They're very much alike.
Two teams against each other, deathmatch style, where one attacks and one defends and the better you do the more you're rewarded.
The only difference is that players respawn and you get to keep your upgrades.
Natural Selection blends first-person combat with real-time strategy. It features intense 'marines vs. aliens' teamplay, where one marine can become 'Commander'.
The Commander plays from a top-down strategic perspective and leads live players.
The aliens can evolve upgrades like Cloaking and Scent of Fear, and can change lifeforms to run on walls, fly and even devour marines whole.
NS has atmospheric indoor sci-fi environments full of steam and smoke, and features orchestral music from Jeremy Soule
Well, the advertisement is for FPS-RTS, marine-alien and teamplay. If folks try a game based on the description, it would only be fair to give them what perked their interest in the first place.
that doesnt mean the idea isnt the same in both.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Furthermore, the similarities you pointed out are common in many FPS games out there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, thats why he said "most popular example".
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The claim that they are similar is completely baseless. Anyone who uses that statement reduces their credibility so I suggest you stay away from it.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
crebility in whose eyes? yours? that doesnt matter a lot, since you already proved you cant read.
Natural Selection blends first-person combat with real-time strategy. It features intense 'marines vs. aliens' teamplay, where one marine can become 'Commander'.
The Commander plays from a top-down strategic perspective and leads live players.
The aliens can evolve upgrades like Cloaking and Scent of Fear, and can change lifeforms to run on walls, fly and even devour marines whole.
NS has atmospheric indoor sci-fi environments full of steam and smoke, and features orchestral music from Jeremy Soule
Well, the advertisement is for FPS-RTS, marine-alien and teamplay. If folks try a game based on the description, it would only be fair to give them what perked their interest in the first place. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yeah, and when they download and try the game theyre more than likely going to run into some 50lvl spamfest combat extravaganza, and either stick to that or leave ns for good.
As I mentioned earlier and civ re-interated, combat is far easier to learn than classic. Classic has a steeper learning curve and requires time to learn enough to appreciate the game. Combat is instant gratification, and when modified allows players to get abilities that pretty much make them invincible. I've played in the Aero combat servers a few times, I ended up with over 100 kills each time and less than 10 deaths for just the short games. This gratification is far easier to get than the gratification from a great classic game.
Once one gets the experience for Classic required to understand the game, the teamplay tends to follow suit, it isn't default built into the game so that's it is plainly obvious. Most RTS games simply can't show the teamplay aspect of the game, it is far too complex to show on the surface. One doesn't realize the power of a 3v3 Starcraft:BW game until you play a while and see how well all 3 races mesh into one team for a fight, it can result in awe-inspiring games if done correctly. NS is similar, when the team members work together it shows just how well made the game is. You don't get excellent team games when a bunch of clueless newbies run around in a map they've never seen before as units they've never played as before. It takes time and experience to learn how to work together in a team-based game, the game mechanics DO promote teamwork, but if one doesn't know the mechanics, it's going to be a newb-fest until someone does.
For every similarity, I can name 10 differences. </i>
that doesnt mean the idea isnt the same in both. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nor does anything about the games mean their ideas are the same in both. The concept behind Combat was to strip out the RTS elements in NS so not only can players experience strictly the combat aspect of NS, but so people could actually play on a server in a 1v1, [2v2, etc.] player situation, eventually allowing the server to fill to the point where they could enjoyably play a balanced normal game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><i>QUOTE
Furthermore, the similarities you pointed out are common in many FPS games out there. </i>
yeah, thats why he said "most popular example". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was a general statement directed at the few people who associated NS:Combat and CS in this whole thread and indirectly at all those on these forums and otherwise who continually do so. When Combat was first announced there was a large part of the NS community that considered it "like" CS and consequently from their perspective a bad idea. But to get back to his post, (which I note is tactful in the respect you pointed out) he said that other games do that style of game better, and that's not true. NS:Combat is quite unique for a wide variety of reasons, most of which it got from the original mode. I believe his point was to deligitimize NS:Combat because of the real reason he doesn't like it: the perceived impact on the classic mode.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><i>QUOTE
The claim that they are similar is completely baseless. Anyone who uses that statement reduces their credibility so I suggest you stay away from it. </i>
crebility in whose eyes? yours? that doesnt matter a lot, since you already proved you cant read.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->If I mention to a friend that people are saying CS and NS:Combat are alot alike, they laugh. I myself don't respond to 99% of CS/Combat posts so I imagine there are many who feel the same way I do. If you're trying to make a logical argument, you'll lose your impact by making a illogical remark such as comparing CS and Combat.
My old OLD suggestion of bringing it closer to the original mode was to utilize the original maps to create a sort of "control" game mode. You setup res nodes at their locations and try to hold as many as you can. There's different options for victory conditions. This uses current content (a plus at the time of my suggestion when no combat maps existed), which allows new players to learn the maps as they are playing a different mode. It encourages the notion of resource gathering amongst new players as well. You'd obviously have to make some sort of interface change to make it incredibly obvious which mode you were in. No reason to go into too much detail, but I thought I'd offer something more than my earlier criticism.
Q: Do you:
- Play Classic only, and wish Combat were removed from NS
- Play Classic and/or Combat, and wish modded NS servers disappeared
- Play Classic and/or Combat, but wished the two game modes were separated (meaning, balanced individually)
- Play only Combat, and wish Classic were simplified/balanced better
- Play everything equally, and really don't care what game type/mods you play
Either the devs won't like what they see, or the hardcore fans of NS won't like what they see, but this needs to be done. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
... and the same 2 or 3 dozen forum users will vote in this poll, or maybe even 4 dozen.
Scientific .... ... .. . NOT! <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) 883 people voted in the NS:S poll. Just a few more than a couple dozen.
2) The people who would vote in a poll on these forums ARE the people the devs should be listening to. I've already said this: the vast majority of pubbers who don't come here couldn't give a damn about the balance of the game, they'll play regardless because it's free, and move on. The people here, they don't do that.
3) And YOUR statistics are so much more scientific. I've already said, you can't cite the number of downloads as an idicator of popularity. They dont represent individual downloads, they are the server admins choice (no vote from the players), AND you're not taking into consideration the possibility that a bunch of the people who downloaded the mod hated it, and wiped it from their server.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Please don't flatter yourself thinkiing 10% of them would vote on what you proposed. You're not Flayra, and the poll doesn't concern source.
2) There are many pubbers of ns that just don't care for forums. At all.
3) My stats showing the number of downloads for the mentioned plugins goes hand in hand with the high number of servers running said mods. Re-read CWAG's thread - that's his beef. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1) Please don't flatter yourself into thinking you know what this community wants how it will behave. Obviously, you don't. Also, the <i>possibility</i> of the poll returning uncertain or innacurrate results shouldn't be a reason <i>not</i> to put it up.
2) And I'm willing to bet that the percentage of long-time pubbers who have never visited this forum and/or made an account here is a heck of a lot smaller than the percentage of pubbers who played the game, loved the game, and sought more information about the game.
3) And I say again, that the number of downloads of your bloody plugin does not directly correspond to what the community wants. The number of people playing this mod has not changed at all since you released that plugin. You know what that means? It means your plugin neither drove players away, nor drew them in. There is a huge playerbase who just play whatever the game happens to be at the time without caring one way or another about it, because they'll be moving on to another game in a few weeks anyway. So, like I've been saying, since that particular group of people (which would almost directly correspond to the group of pubbers who never visit this forum) doesn't really care what direction this game goes, why shouldn't we try to please the people who actually DO care what mode they play, or what modifications to the game they have to deal with.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Understand first of all it's NOT my plugin, I merely ported it to AMX Mod X as the plugin's author was not able to. Also understand throughout this entire thread I have advocated pro-choice, not pro-plugin. ALL players have this choice when joining any given server to bow out and find another that suits their wants and needs. And all server ops have the same choice - they're going to install what the public wants. My server currently does not run ANY game-altering plugins other than mvm.
If the extralevels2 plugin wasn't so popular my guess is the high number of servers that have it installed simply wouldn't keep it running. So yes, the fact that it's been downloaded over 3000 times is directly related to it's popularity. And according to the high number of posters to this thread that have stated thay can't hardly FIND a server running without it would support that. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That means more people will stick with co_ than stick with ns_. And eventually, those co_ players will want to move on to ns_, and they'll fail miserably because they have no idea what to do, yet think they're good because of their combat past. This is even worse with extralevels because people can easily have abusively powerful upgrades that exist nowhere else, therefore going around the core elements of the game such as taking care of your and your teammate's life, energy, ammo, and armor.
I think thats a main part of the problem...it was just too different from classic to be a good introduction.
see...they left out the whole rts part. Whats left is the action and fps...but that doesnt show you how ns works...leaving a lot of new players who try to change to ns but can't because they need someone to explain them the basics...since co_ didnt do that.
They know how to use upgrades, how to use the lifeforms, that they have to cover the hive/commchair...but they have no clue of
- upgrade times
- buildings except the armory, cc, hive (and even there they have no clue!)
- res towers...what ns is all about...
- strategy ns uses
- the whole alien upgrade system
- chambers OMG
- the gorge! he is able to build stuff! yes! yes he is!
- and other stuff
co_ should have been an introduction...but it wasnt. It was just ns minus all these things above.
What could help would be an effective training that gives the co_ players a possiblitie to get the basics of ns.
A tutorial that leads them as quick and intense as possible through the things i mentioned above.
OR: b) more ns-teachers...who help the co_ players to understand ns_...if we would have a lot more of these freindly teachers...something could change.
i guess...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->How To Play:
After GorgZilla has been chosen, it's ALL vs GorgZilla (helpers come later), marines must attack hive to remove GorgZilla's shield. Hive has so many lives, after it runs out of lives, GorgZilla's shield is down forever. GorgZilla can DEVOUR marines, they then become a Helper for 1 round. Helpers are smaller, have less HP, and glow YELLOW. Marines must kill GorgZilla, and GorgZilla must kill a defined amount of marines. When GorgZilla glows Green he has shield ON, when its Red, shield is OFF. Stats displayed are HiveHP, Hive Lives, GorgZilla HP, GorgZilla Kills Left, Max Helpers (added after screenshots). Display was moved to the left for easier viewing (as apposed to screenshots). Hope you enjoy this plugin as much as everyone whos played it has!<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you think extralevels2 is controversial?
The NS team needed the extra players and publicity Combat has brought, whether you like the mode or not, whether those new players are ever going to play classic or not.
With more people that know about the game that's "Natural Selection", hopefully we'll see NS:S, NS under My Games in Steam, and the NS retail game within the near future, with bigger playerbases and funding.
Now don't get me wrong, I don't like the way Combat is played at all, and i'm getting a bit frustrated at the lack of classic players that understand how the game works, but as SentrySteve said, it's partially the games' fault.
Classic is pretty much solely dependant on the players for it to be fun, which is why so many people hop on any random server, find out it isn't fun, and never look back at classic. They prefer a game where the only knowledge you need is "run out of base, point crosshair over alien, click mouse1". And you really can't blame the players/server mods for this.
Classic is infinitely more fun than combat when played right, whether public or competitive, but because there's no tools of any sort (No, minimap and +showscores don't count) to help new players or random teams that don't know each other to enhance teamwork and game understanding, it's also incredibly hard to create a fun classic game, especially on public.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->They know how to use upgrades, how to use the lifeforms, that they have to cover the hive/commchair...but they have no clue of
- upgrade times
- buildings except the armory, cc, hive (and even there they have no clue!)
- res towers...what ns is all about...
- strategy ns uses
- the whole alien upgrade system
- chambers OMG
- the gorge! he is able to build stuff! yes! yes he is!
- and other stuff
co_ should have been an introduction...but it wasnt. It was just ns minus all these things above.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Combat makes a fairly decent introduction if you look at it other ways. Imagine the most irritating, zoned out, ignoring-his-team, or just plain lame marine you can. Imagine him playing Combat. Yeppers, you've probably seen lots of this before. Now, imagine him playing Classic, without any previous experience. The mere thought of this scenario brings back searing images in my mind of top-down shots featuring marines being cut down and eaten up all over my minimap. I can <i>hear</i> shotguns and grenade guns being picked up just to be dropped on the other side of a chamber barricade just outside of spawn.
Combat provided the new recruits with weapons experience and alien experience (don't forget aliens, though I tend to use marine examples because they're more painful) so that when they hop into the battlefield in Classic, they can at least provide effective firepower while the commander or Gorge takes care of the stuff that they don't know yet. However, it seems that the development team didn't count on the new playerbase that they got: a playerbase that doesn't need weapons training, they need a drill sargeant to smack them silly until they begin to work as a team. Those who <i>do</i> work as a team are often overinqusitive and confused to the point that they freeze, and they want to know what's going on before they go to the flashing blue circle labled "Waypoint."
Combat probably needs to be adjusted accordingly (maybe like PseudoKnight has been suggesting), but that would be an intense overhaul.
You're correct. I edited it to remain on topic, thanks. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'>LEEEERRRROOOOYYYYY nnJENNNNKKKKINNNNSSSS!!!!!</span></span>
On another note making mods is supposed to be about giving people a chance to make there own game and if someone wants to make extralevels and they enjoy it thats fine.
The FAT clan is a lvl 50 combat /menu clan that's going to attempt to play for the competitive community next season, we'll see how long that lasts. ;-)
The FAT clan is a lvl 50 combat /menu clan that's going to attempt to play for the competitive community next season, we'll see how long that lasts. ;-) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's as easy to adapt from playing on a heavily modded server to playing on one that's plain vanilla as it is to adapt from combat to classic, not an issue whatsoever. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The FAT clan is a lvl 50 combat /menu clan that's going to attempt to play for the competitive community next season, we'll see how long that lasts. ;-) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's as easy to adapt from playing on a heavily modded server to playing on one that's plain vanilla as it is to adapt from combat to classic, not an issue whatsoever. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Even if they adapt fine, it begs the question of what kind of competitive players (in their right minds) would want to own and run a 50 level /menu combat server?
<!--QuoteBegin-Depot+Jun 11 2005, 09:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Depot @ Jun 11 2005, 09:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's as easy to adapt from playing on a heavily modded server to playing on one that's plain vanilla as it is to adapt from combat to classic, not an issue whatsoever. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Haven't watched much competive play lately, have you?
There's a few combat clans. Almost without exception, they're destroyed on a regular basis in CAL.
It's not an easy transition. It takes dedication and playing NS instead of /menu.
Regards,
Savant