tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Jun 3 2005, 01:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Jun 3 2005, 01:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Guys, lets be honest here. How could 3 small marine buffs and one small alien nerf going to tilt balance in any significant fashion?
It won't. It can't. It never has in almost any game I've played.
Furthermore, it's funny that all these changes are made to other aspects of the game, when the fact remains that
<b>chamber imbalance and free upgrades</b> has caused 90% of the problems with 3.0 final from 3.0 b5. But for some reason, the devs just ignore that.
Whatever. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Free upgrades: Adds a lot of fun to the game, and thus is a good enough reason to keep it.
Chamber imbalances: Not gonna change much in a number-only patch.
Let the alien ties continue to rack up <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Jun 2 2005, 07:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Jun 2 2005, 07:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Guys, lets be honest here. How could 3 small marine buffs and one small alien nerf going to tilt balance in any significant fashion?
....
<b>chamber imbalance and free upgrades</b> has caused 90% of the problems with 3.0 final from 3.0 b5. But for some reason, the devs just ignore that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In the last patch the 5 armor added to marines, which doesnt seem like much, changed balance and tactics quite a bit.
<!--QuoteBegin-Toothy+Jun 1 2005, 11:55 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Toothy @ Jun 1 2005, 11:55 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Nice to see the .txt crew of combat pubstars once again giving witty comments on a patch they've never played that affects a gamemode which they most likely don't even understand. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A non-specific piece of information that's completely useless for feedback.
Bravo, sir.
Patches with these types of miniscule changes have been released in the past, and they never seem to affect the overall gameplay.
BreakthroughTexture Artist (ns_prometheus)Join Date: 2005-03-27Member: 46620Members, Constellation
I don't see any real gameplay changes with this (well, not <i>really</i> noticable) patch... But nonetheless, it will have some effect on the community!
Based on experiences in other games, i would rather see small slow gradual attempts to balance the game instead of massive changes, when you start making big changes there is the possibility of overcompensating and the game is nerfed in the opposite way it previously was.
Personnaly, i'm glad to see continued support from the developers, and think that the way they are going about this, albiet slowly, is the best way to do it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Jun 1 2005, 04:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Jun 1 2005, 04:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-TOmekki+Jun 1 2005, 04:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TOmekki @ Jun 1 2005, 04:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Swiftspear+Jun 1 2005, 04:12 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swiftspear @ Jun 1 2005, 04:12 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Only thing I don't like is the siege. After 3.03 I'd be complaining about an overpowered seige... not an underpowered one. If we're trying to make siege viable compeditively we might as well give up. Siege = lockdown because of how long it takes. Compeditive players like to take out both hives in < 1 minute. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> sometimes siege is the only thing you can do. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ya, and in those cases the existing seige was already powerful enough. 3 gorges can't outheal 3 of the current seiges. It's back at the point where once the seiges are up, the aliens only have a few seconds before they are past the point of no return... seiges didn't need a further boost. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> An active hive and three gorges can basically nullify all the damage of up to around five seiges I believe, though with five they would probably just slow it down so much that the marines would either be overrun or lose all their rts.
<!--QuoteBegin-tankefugl+Jun 2 2005, 07:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tankefugl @ Jun 2 2005, 07:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Jun 3 2005, 01:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Jun 3 2005, 01:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Guys, lets be honest here. How could 3 small marine buffs and one small alien nerf going to tilt balance in any significant fashion?
It won't. It can't. It never has in almost any game I've played.
Furthermore, it's funny that all these changes are made to other aspects of the game, when the fact remains that
<b>chamber imbalance and free upgrades</b> has caused 90% of the problems with 3.0 final from 3.0 b5. But for some reason, the devs just ignore that.
Whatever. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Free upgrades: Adds a lot of fun to the game, and thus is a good enough reason to keep it.
Chamber imbalances: Not gonna change much in a number-only patch.
And 76% of all statistics are made up on the fly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Free upgrades adds a lot of fun to the game? Considering that the playerbase has remained unchanged from beta 5 to 3.0 final, I would say free chamber upgrades or non-free upgrades has a zero effect on the overall fun-factor of the game for the large majority.
Therefore it follow's that one would want to simply balance the game, not worry about making it more "fun". Fun is the most subjective of all terms to use when changing a game, whereas balance (in strictly perfect playing conditions) are not.
Were win ratios more even in beta 5 than 3.0 final? (Yes) What was the significant change from b5 to 3.0 final? (Free upgrades + Sensory chambers) Who wins more? (Aliens)
Is there something to conclude here, or am I missing another factor?
And when I said "90% of 3.0 final's problems", that isn't a statistic, it's basically me listing 10 problems in my head and then seeing what causes the problem. And out of those 10, 9 of them were directly related to the free upgrades. That's 90%
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Jun 2 2005, 03:59 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jun 2 2005, 03:59 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-GiGaBiTe+Jun 2 2005, 05:34 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (GiGaBiTe @ Jun 2 2005, 05:34 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> ok i found out the problem, apparently the ns.wad in the zip from some download links is corrupted. it registers as a zero byte file and the dedicated server cannot start correctly.
someone might want to look into that.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That one sounds pretty damn ghastly, but it can't have very much to do with .0.4, since it does not include any .wad files at all. Where did you download the 3.0 server version you're running from? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i did a fresh install of ns on my server. did the 3.0f zip from jarheadz (??) then got the ns 3.0.4 from the same place and it did that.
it could be on other download servers also, but i havent checked..
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Jun 3 2005, 04:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Jun 3 2005, 04:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Free upgrades adds a lot of fun to the game? Considering that the playerbase has remained unchanged from beta 5 to 3.0 final, <b>I would say</b> free chamber upgrades or non-free upgrades has a zero effect on the overall fun-factor of the game for the large majority.
<b>Therefore it follow's</b> that one would want to simply balance the game, not worry about making it more "fun". Fun is the <b>most subjective of all terms</b> to use when changing a game, whereas balance (in strictly perfect playing conditions) are not.
Were win ratios more even in beta 5 than 3.0 final? (Yes) What was the significant change from b5 to 3.0 final? (Free upgrades + Sensory chambers) Who wins more? (Aliens)
Is there something to conclude here, or [/b]am I missing another factor?[/b]
And when I said "90% of 3.0 final's problems", that isn't a statistic, it's basically me listing 10 problems in my head and then seeing what causes the problem. And out of those 10, 9 of them were directly related to the free upgrades. That's 90% <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I highlighted what you missed:
- You state that you don't see the free upgrades as fun yourself. That's ok, because .. - You also state that it's very subjective what's fun and not.
But then you conclude, based on what YOU find fun: - That balance should be first priority.
Another inacurate premise you use for your conclusion is that the playerbase hasn't changed, but it has. There have been several new players to this game the last four months. But I don't see how that changes what people find fun or not, be it free upgrades or balance.
Now, some of the most positive feedback we've gotten for 3.0 is about the free upgrades and that it actually is fun. And I must admit I'm biased because I personally find free upgrades much more fun to play with than without.
If you got nine problem with NS, please post them in the next balance thread discussion.
<!--QuoteBegin-kalimxs+Jun 3 2005, 12:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kalimxs @ Jun 3 2005, 12:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> balance is still determined by maps
see the terror vs exi match
veil managed to pull a marine tie, although granted the exi marine win took a lot longer, it was a war of res. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That game was just barely competitive.
tanke, I believe the word you meant there was "subjective" <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I don't really see why I should play hide and seek here, so I'll just come out and say it: NGE, we hold your account open for yourself, not to allow your brother (add quote marks at your own preference) ban evasion. If you insist on making it available to him, you'll reap the usual treatment.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
<!--QuoteBegin-Nemesis Zero+Jun 3 2005, 11:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Jun 3 2005, 11:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> tanke, I believe the word you meant there was "subjective" <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Err, doh <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-tankefugl+Jun 3 2005, 03:54 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tankefugl @ Jun 3 2005, 03:54 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Jun 3 2005, 04:31 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Jun 3 2005, 04:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Free upgrades adds a lot of fun to the game? Considering that the playerbase has remained unchanged from beta 5 to 3.0 final, <b>I would say</b> free chamber upgrades or non-free upgrades has a zero effect on the overall fun-factor of the game for the large majority.
<b>Therefore it follow's</b> that one would want to simply balance the game, not worry about making it more "fun". Fun is the <b>most subjective of all terms</b> to use when changing a game, whereas balance (in strictly perfect playing conditions) are not.
Were win ratios more even in beta 5 than 3.0 final? (Yes) What was the significant change from b5 to 3.0 final? (Free upgrades + Sensory chambers) Who wins more? (Aliens)
Is there something to conclude here, or [/b]am I missing another factor?[/b]
And when I said "90% of 3.0 final's problems", that isn't a statistic, it's basically me listing 10 problems in my head and then seeing what causes the problem. And out of those 10, 9 of them were directly related to the free upgrades. That's 90% <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I highlighted what you missed:
- You state that you don't see the free upgrades as fun yourself. That's ok, because .. - You also state that it's very subjective what's fun and not.
But then you conclude, based on what YOU find fun: - That balance should be first priority.
Another inacurate premise you use for your conclusion is that the playerbase hasn't changed, but it has. There have been several new players to this game the last four months. But I don't see how that changes what people find fun or not, be it free upgrades or balance.
Now, some of the most positive feedback we've gotten for 3.0 is about the free upgrades and that it actually is fun. And I must admit I'm biased because I personally find free upgrades much more fun to play with than without.
If you got nine problem with NS, please post them in the next balance thread discussion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> When I said playerbase, I meant the overall popularity.
As of right now the current amount of players is around 1,000. It's pretty constant, and at peak times I believe it to go to 1,200. Unless I'm mistaken, it's been this way for awhile now.
Fun factor is important, don't get me wrong. It's probably the most important thing to worry about. But fun factor is also highly subjective, and listening to oppinions on changes isn't anything. If a game is truely made more "fun", then more people would be playing it, right? That's what I meant by the whole playerbase hasn't changed. People leave and people come all the time, but there is no increase, no real growth.
Therefore, it follows that (this is what I meant originally) since free upgrades hasn't done something significant to the overall fun factor of NS, then one would want to focus on balance instead, something easier to achieve than a higher fun factor.
And if you focus on balance, the biggest trouble spot with NS right now are the free upgrades. By far. It would make sense to just change them, save yourself the most work and not make any more potentially harmful changes to game balance.
Furthermore I never said what I thought of free upgrades. To me, they are cool but really do not add anything to the game aside make the aliens easier and marines more frustrating to play.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you got nine problem with NS, please post them in the next balance thread discussion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice flamebait?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't really see why I should play hide and seek here, so I'll just come out and say it: NGE, we hold your account open for yourself, not to allow your brother (add quote marks at your own preference) ban evasion. If you insist on making it available to him, you'll reap the usual treatment.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't my brother typing here. Although it would be hard for you to tell. After all, we share the same IP over a router, I use his computer all the time (as it's much faster than mine to play games on) and my brother used to have an affinity for posting here.
But the fact is he hardly plays NS anymore, nevermind posts on the forums. But, I suppose if you aren't convinced I can let him type on this account and you can see him start one amazing flamewar.
I liked it back when it was two bite death's for Marines and 2 point for skulk upgrades. To me it seemed like being a Marine actually took major skill. Where just one skulk could just annihilate 2-3 of your guys if you did not play smart. Now a days I hardly find myself looking at ambush spots just because I know I can take that extra bite now with my armor 1 automatically in the beginning of the game.
The extra 5+ armor was added because of what? I think I read a dev said for aliens to actually use parasite and use teamwork to win? Many people still don't do this anyways. Heck in B5 all we did was parasite and or used our ears to our advantage. Basically this 5+ armor was an absolute waste to me.
The free upgrades are a whole new league of its own. As of now the only way Marines win is if they totally annihilate the aliens. Yeah you can kill the 2nd hive but the aliens are still just as deadly. In older versions when your a skulk choosing your upgrade was sometimes a risky move. It caused you to be careful and not want to die because using up 2 res each time you spawn just sucks.
I miss the version that I actually played a lot and hardcore, beta 5. Each day with each new release I'am finding NS more how do you say. Not as good I guess i'll use to describe it. When I find myself playing CS more than NS I know there is something wrong right there.
Blah blah blah now i'll just sit and wait and hope the game will become better.
<!--QuoteBegin-SaltzBad+Jun 3 2005, 05:00 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SaltzBad @ Jun 3 2005, 05:00 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-kalimxs+Jun 3 2005, 12:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kalimxs @ Jun 3 2005, 12:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> balance is still determined by maps
see the terror vs exi match
veil managed to pull a marine tie, although granted the exi marine win took a lot longer, it was a war of res. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That game was just barely competitive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> if you're considering skill as an absolute, then ns is a joke of a game because if you took a cal-i cs player on marine, he'd kill 5 skulks before he had to reload.
if you go relative you're not gonna get much more "competative" then that.
Like it or not, free upgrades really drag more people in to going alien because its not so intimidating. Don't you just hate when the whole marine teams in new and the whole alien team are veterans? Therefore, free upgrades actually balanced it more.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
edited June 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-DuoGodOfDeath+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DuoGodOfDeath)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>Now a days I hardly find myself looking at ambush spots just because I know I can take that extra bite</b> now with my armor 1 automatically in the beginning of the game.
The extra 5+ armor was added because of what? I think I read a dev said for aliens to actually use parasite and use teamwork to win? Many people still don't do this anyways. Heck in B5 all we did was parasite and or used our ears to our advantage. Basically this <b>5+ armor was an absolute waste to me</b>. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I honestly find it really hard to take feedback seriously when it contradicts itself like that. If you want to rephrase it because the words didn't portrait what you really meant, please do so.
As of why the +5 extra armor was added: To give the early marine a boost by surviving another bite. If the aliens use more parasite and more teamwork because of it, it's just an indicator that the game isn't fully played out yet.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When I find myself playing CS more than NS I know there is something wrong right there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And how long have you played NS? If people gets bored with NS after a so long time, I do not think what the game is now is a failure in any way. People quit playing every game every day, but a lot of that is because different attention spans. I've even heard of soccer players quitting because they got bored .. Are the game rules wrong there too? I understand that you do not enjoy the game as much as you did, but I do not think you would enjoy it today if it was still in beta 5 either with such statements. That being said, I play both CS and DoD quite a lot. WoW too. But I still think that NS is an awesome game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you got nine problem with NS, please post them in the next balance thread discussion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it's an honest request. Those nine real problems are no use if you keep them to yourself, are they?
EDIT: What's up with the non-parsed quotes? <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> EDIT-EDIT: A non-closed tags .. doh.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
edited June 2005
<!--QuoteBegin-Router Box+Jun 3 2005, 11:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Router Box @ Jun 3 2005, 11:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd like to see one last bout from forlorn. It would be Nostalgic. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seriously. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Nothing makes my day more than an thorough bile-filled trolling. My heart warms in the flames that leap off of the thread.
Anyone who didn't like having forlorn around was taking their life too seriously <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->. We all need to see someone go apopleptic every so often just to keep things in perspective. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I would just like to say that after playing many NS games int he past day, I thik the seiges now feel too powerful.
While I commed on Eon, Veil, Nothing, and Lost, I seiged at hives continually with ease against some very good players. Everything just seemed to die, period.
In 3.03 the seige seemed powerful, but not too much. Now they feel powerful blatently, in my experience as a comm with them. It made my seiging too easy.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now a days I hardly find myself looking at ambush spots just because I know I can take that extra bite now with my armor 1 automatically in the beginning of the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's supposed to make aliens more active, not making marines more passive. Sure, you can take that extra bite, but you have to adapt. That's like if you said that the new armor absorption values (as in compared to 1.0x) were horrible because it minimizes the use of armor upgrades because a couple bites removed all your armor.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why is the focus set on making unnessescary updates?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I would hardly say changing Ammo amounts on spawn is an unnesscary update. It was essential. No more armoury humpers, while still restricting the marines in a rush by not giving them full ammo.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Good job with the sieges and upgrade times or what have you. These are all minor aesthetic changes that really make no difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Upping the sieges and research times on specific things WILL make a SERIOUS difference.
I'm never any good at the math in NS but I'm sure now with 400 damage it will no longer be the previously mandatory 5 sieges to kill a hive (infact I think 3 maybe plenty enough with that kind of damage now so we're talking about 30 spare res to spend on an extra hmg or 2) and even then its still a rush in to kill those damned gorges..
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What I've noticed is with the new versions there is alot more emphisis on teamplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It always been been based around teamplay <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because everytime someone attempts to facilitate some sort of fix for the game that could potentially BALANCE the game it's always swept under the carpet because it is not in the main interest of Tom **** and Harry ie- public players<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And heres me thinking it was balanced around clans as they use the most TEAMWORK and GROUP tactics than any pub servers out there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->because its far too newbie friendly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1 Noob please, throw him into a NS server and tell him "hive is CC, go bulid RTs at WP, we're rushing to Maint, listen for skulks and call for ammo or meds."
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IF IT AINT BROKE, DONT flipping FIX IT.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure theres some philsophers here who would LOVE to discuss about that point...
And heres my attempt with a hypothecial situation (can't spell)
When you bulid a table with legs and no oranate design on it... Is it broken? Will it be nice to eat off? Not really, its functional yes, but it wouldn't really improve the decro in my room, nor would it be anything I would admire. However If I was to take precious time over it and carefully cut ornate patterns into I would enjoy it all the more.
Anyway I like all the changes for this bulid. Its nice to see some more number changes happening and it really shows that the devs have been thinking about this. I'm sure the PTs had a heck of a time testing out the new numbers anyway. I wonder what the original amount was tested?
Was the next bulid mentioned as the Onos rebulid?? I'm sure I read somewhere or a hint about the problem of the onos..
Oh my god. I just came back from, oh, like, a 2 hour NS fest, and I played 1 game out of, like, 10 where the aliens won. This is starting to get scary.
<!--QuoteBegin-Fatal Error+Jun 3 2005, 07:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fatal Error @ Jun 3 2005, 07:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh my god. I just came back from, oh, like, a 2 hour NS fest, and I played 1 game out of, like, 10 where the aliens won. This is starting to get scary. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It happens.
Comments
It won't. It can't. It never has in almost any game I've played.
Furthermore, it's funny that all these changes are made to other aspects of the game, when the fact remains that
<b>chamber imbalance and free upgrades</b> has caused 90% of the problems with 3.0 final from 3.0 b5. But for some reason, the devs just ignore that.
Whatever. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Free upgrades: Adds a lot of fun to the game, and thus is a good enough reason to keep it.
Chamber imbalances: Not gonna change much in a number-only patch.
And 76% of all statistics are made up on the fly.
....
<b>chamber imbalance and free upgrades</b> has caused 90% of the problems with 3.0 final from 3.0 b5. But for some reason, the devs just ignore that. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
In the last patch the 5 armor added to marines, which doesnt seem like much, changed balance and tactics quite a bit.
A non-specific piece of information that's completely useless for feedback.
Bravo, sir.
Patches with these types of miniscule changes have been released in the past, and they never seem to affect the overall gameplay.
Personnaly, i'm glad to see continued support from the developers, and think that the way they are going about this, albiet slowly, is the best way to do it.
sometimes siege is the only thing you can do. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ya, and in those cases the existing seige was already powerful enough. 3 gorges can't outheal 3 of the current seiges. It's back at the point where once the seiges are up, the aliens only have a few seconds before they are past the point of no return... seiges didn't need a further boost. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
An active hive and three gorges can basically nullify all the damage of up to around five seiges I believe, though with five they would probably just slow it down so much that the marines would either be overrun or lose all their rts.
It won't. It can't. It never has in almost any game I've played.
Furthermore, it's funny that all these changes are made to other aspects of the game, when the fact remains that
<b>chamber imbalance and free upgrades</b> has caused 90% of the problems with 3.0 final from 3.0 b5. But for some reason, the devs just ignore that.
Whatever. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Free upgrades: Adds a lot of fun to the game, and thus is a good enough reason to keep it.
Chamber imbalances: Not gonna change much in a number-only patch.
And 76% of all statistics are made up on the fly. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Free upgrades adds a lot of fun to the game? Considering that the playerbase has remained unchanged from beta 5 to 3.0 final, I would say free chamber upgrades or non-free upgrades has a zero effect on the overall fun-factor of the game for the large majority.
Therefore it follow's that one would want to simply balance the game, not worry about making it more "fun". Fun is the most subjective of all terms to use when changing a game, whereas balance (in strictly perfect playing conditions) are not.
Were win ratios more even in beta 5 than 3.0 final? (Yes) What was the significant change from b5 to 3.0 final? (Free upgrades + Sensory chambers) Who wins more? (Aliens)
Is there something to conclude here, or am I missing another factor?
And when I said "90% of 3.0 final's problems", that isn't a statistic, it's basically me listing 10 problems in my head and then seeing what causes the problem. And out of those 10, 9 of them were directly related to the free upgrades. That's 90%
see the terror vs exi match
veil managed to pull a marine tie, although granted the exi marine win took a lot longer, it was a war of res.
someone might want to look into that.. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That one sounds pretty damn ghastly, but it can't have very much to do with .0.4, since it does not include any .wad files at all. Where did you download the 3.0 server version you're running from? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i did a fresh install of ns on my server. did the 3.0f zip from jarheadz (??) then got the ns 3.0.4 from the same place and it did that.
it could be on other download servers also, but i havent checked..
<b>Therefore it follow's</b> that one would want to simply balance the game, not worry about making it more "fun". Fun is the <b>most subjective of all terms</b> to use when changing a game, whereas balance (in strictly perfect playing conditions) are not.
Were win ratios more even in beta 5 than 3.0 final? (Yes) What was the significant change from b5 to 3.0 final? (Free upgrades + Sensory chambers) Who wins more? (Aliens)
Is there something to conclude here, or [/b]am I missing another factor?[/b]
And when I said "90% of 3.0 final's problems", that isn't a statistic, it's basically me listing 10 problems in my head and then seeing what causes the problem. And out of those 10, 9 of them were directly related to the free upgrades. That's 90% <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I highlighted what you missed:
- You state that you don't see the free upgrades as fun yourself. That's ok, because ..
- You also state that it's very subjective what's fun and not.
But then you conclude, based on what YOU find fun:
- That balance should be first priority.
Another inacurate premise you use for your conclusion is that the playerbase hasn't changed, but it has. There have been several new players to this game the last four months. But I don't see how that changes what people find fun or not, be it free upgrades or balance.
Now, some of the most positive feedback we've gotten for 3.0 is about the free upgrades and that it actually is fun. And I must admit I'm biased because I personally find free upgrades much more fun to play with than without.
If you got nine problem with NS, please post them in the next balance thread discussion.
see the terror vs exi match
veil managed to pull a marine tie, although granted the exi marine win took a lot longer, it was a war of res. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That game was just barely competitive.
I don't really see why I should play hide and seek here, so I'll just come out and say it: NGE, we hold your account open for yourself, not to allow your brother (add quote marks at your own preference) ban evasion. If you insist on making it available to him, you'll reap the usual treatment.
Err, doh <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Words > me.
<b>Therefore it follow's</b> that one would want to simply balance the game, not worry about making it more "fun". Fun is the <b>most subjective of all terms</b> to use when changing a game, whereas balance (in strictly perfect playing conditions) are not.
Were win ratios more even in beta 5 than 3.0 final? (Yes) What was the significant change from b5 to 3.0 final? (Free upgrades + Sensory chambers) Who wins more? (Aliens)
Is there something to conclude here, or [/b]am I missing another factor?[/b]
And when I said "90% of 3.0 final's problems", that isn't a statistic, it's basically me listing 10 problems in my head and then seeing what causes the problem. And out of those 10, 9 of them were directly related to the free upgrades. That's 90% <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I highlighted what you missed:
- You state that you don't see the free upgrades as fun yourself. That's ok, because ..
- You also state that it's very subjective what's fun and not.
But then you conclude, based on what YOU find fun:
- That balance should be first priority.
Another inacurate premise you use for your conclusion is that the playerbase hasn't changed, but it has. There have been several new players to this game the last four months. But I don't see how that changes what people find fun or not, be it free upgrades or balance.
Now, some of the most positive feedback we've gotten for 3.0 is about the free upgrades and that it actually is fun. And I must admit I'm biased because I personally find free upgrades much more fun to play with than without.
If you got nine problem with NS, please post them in the next balance thread discussion. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
When I said playerbase, I meant the overall popularity.
<a href='http://www.steampowered.com/status/game_stats.html' target='_blank'>http://www.steampowered.com/status/game_stats.html</a>
As of right now the current amount of players is around 1,000. It's pretty constant, and at peak times I believe it to go to 1,200. Unless I'm mistaken, it's been this way for awhile now.
Fun factor is important, don't get me wrong. It's probably the most important thing to worry about. But fun factor is also highly subjective, and listening to oppinions on changes isn't anything. If a game is truely made more "fun", then more people would be playing it, right? That's what I meant by the whole playerbase hasn't changed. People leave and people come all the time, but there is no increase, no real growth.
Therefore, it follows that (this is what I meant originally) since free upgrades hasn't done something significant to the overall fun factor of NS, then one would want to focus on balance instead, something easier to achieve than a higher fun factor.
And if you focus on balance, the biggest trouble spot with NS right now are the free upgrades. By far. It would make sense to just change them, save yourself the most work and not make any more potentially harmful changes to game balance.
Furthermore I never said what I thought of free upgrades. To me, they are cool but really do not add anything to the game aside make the aliens easier and marines more frustrating to play.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you got nine problem with NS, please post them in the next balance thread discussion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice flamebait?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't really see why I should play hide and seek here, so I'll just come out and say it: NGE, we hold your account open for yourself, not to allow your brother (add quote marks at your own preference) ban evasion. If you insist on making it available to him, you'll reap the usual treatment.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This isn't my brother typing here. Although it would be hard for you to tell. After all, we share the same IP over a router, I use his computer all the time (as it's much faster than mine to play games on) and my brother used to have an affinity for posting here.
But the fact is he hardly plays NS anymore, nevermind posts on the forums. But, I suppose if you aren't convinced I can let him type on this account and you can see him start one amazing flamewar.
It'll be worth it in the end when the game gets balanced.
The extra 5+ armor was added because of what? I think I read a dev said for aliens to actually use parasite and use teamwork to win? Many people still don't do this anyways. Heck in B5 all we did was parasite and or used our ears to our advantage. Basically this 5+ armor was an absolute waste to me.
The free upgrades are a whole new league of its own. As of now the only way Marines win is if they totally annihilate the aliens. Yeah you can kill the 2nd hive but the aliens are still just as deadly. In older versions when your a skulk choosing your upgrade was sometimes a risky move. It caused you to be careful and not want to die because using up 2 res each time you spawn just sucks.
I miss the version that I actually played a lot and hardcore, beta 5. Each day with each new release I'am finding NS more how do you say. Not as good I guess i'll use to describe it. When I find myself playing CS more than NS I know there is something wrong right there.
Blah blah blah now i'll just sit and wait and hope the game will become better.
see the terror vs exi match
veil managed to pull a marine tie, although granted the exi marine win took a lot longer, it was a war of res. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That game was just barely competitive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
if you're considering skill as an absolute, then ns is a joke of a game because if you took a cal-i cs player on marine, he'd kill 5 skulks before he had to reload.
if you go relative you're not gonna get much more "competative" then that.
<b>Now a days I hardly find myself looking at ambush spots just because I know I can take that extra bite</b> now with my armor 1 automatically in the beginning of the game.
The extra 5+ armor was added because of what? I think I read a dev said for aliens to actually use parasite and use teamwork to win? Many people still don't do this anyways. Heck in B5 all we did was parasite and or used our ears to our advantage. Basically this <b>5+ armor was an absolute waste to me</b>.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I honestly find it really hard to take feedback seriously when it contradicts itself like that. If you want to rephrase it because the words didn't portrait what you really meant, please do so.
As of why the +5 extra armor was added: To give the early marine a boost by surviving another bite. If the aliens use more parasite and more teamwork because of it, it's just an indicator that the game isn't fully played out yet.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When I find myself playing CS more than NS I know there is something wrong right there.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And how long have you played NS? If people gets bored with NS after a so long time, I do not think what the game is now is a failure in any way. People quit playing every game every day, but a lot of that is because different attention spans. I've even heard of soccer players quitting because they got bored .. Are the game rules wrong there too? I understand that you do not enjoy the game as much as you did, but I do not think you would enjoy it today if it was still in beta 5 either with such statements. That being said, I play both CS and DoD quite a lot. WoW too. But I still think that NS is an awesome game.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you got nine problem with NS, please post them in the next balance thread discussion.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nice flamebait?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it's an honest request. Those nine real problems are no use if you keep them to yourself, are they?
EDIT: What's up with the non-parsed quotes? <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
EDIT-EDIT: A non-closed tags .. doh.
Seriously. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Nothing makes my day more than an thorough bile-filled trolling. My heart warms in the flames that leap off of the thread.
Anyone who didn't like having forlorn around was taking their life too seriously <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->. We all need to see someone go apopleptic every so often just to keep things in perspective. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
While I commed on Eon, Veil, Nothing, and Lost, I seiged at hives continually with ease against some very good players. Everything just seemed to die, period.
In 3.03 the seige seemed powerful, but not too much. Now they feel powerful blatently, in my experience as a comm with them. It made my seiging too easy.
It's supposed to make aliens more active, not making marines more passive. Sure, you can take that extra bite, but you have to adapt. That's like if you said that the new armor absorption values (as in compared to 1.0x) were horrible because it minimizes the use of armor upgrades because a couple bites removed all your armor.
I would hardly say changing Ammo amounts on spawn is an unnesscary update. It was essential. No more armoury humpers, while still restricting the marines in a rush by not giving them full ammo.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Good job with the sieges and upgrade times or what have you. These are all minor aesthetic changes that really make no difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Upping the sieges and research times on specific things WILL make a SERIOUS difference.
I'm never any good at the math in NS but I'm sure now with 400 damage it will no longer be the previously mandatory 5 sieges to kill a hive (infact I think 3 maybe plenty enough with that kind of damage now so we're talking about 30 spare res to spend on an extra hmg or 2) and even then its still a rush in to kill those damned gorges..
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What I've noticed is with the new versions there is alot more emphisis on teamplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It always been been based around teamplay <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Because everytime someone attempts to facilitate some sort of fix for the game that could potentially BALANCE the game it's always swept under the carpet because it is not in the main interest of Tom **** and Harry ie- public players<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And heres me thinking it was balanced around clans as they use the most TEAMWORK and GROUP tactics than any pub servers out there.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->because its far too newbie friendly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1 Noob please, throw him into a NS server and tell him "hive is CC, go bulid RTs at WP, we're rushing to Maint, listen for skulks and call for ammo or meds."
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->IF IT AINT BROKE, DONT flipping FIX IT.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm sure theres some philsophers here who would LOVE to discuss about that point...
And heres my attempt with a hypothecial situation (can't spell)
When you bulid a table with legs and no oranate design on it... Is it broken? Will it be nice to eat off? Not really, its functional yes, but it wouldn't really improve the decro in my room, nor would it be anything I would admire. However If I was to take precious time over it and carefully cut ornate patterns into I would enjoy it all the more.
Anyway I like all the changes for this bulid. Its nice to see some more number changes happening and it really shows that the devs have been thinking about this. I'm sure the PTs had a heck of a time testing out the new numbers anyway.
I wonder what the original amount was tested?
Was the next bulid mentioned as the Onos rebulid?? I'm sure I read somewhere or a hint about the problem of the onos..
It happens.