Actually, I think there is a good argument for "nothing you (or I ) do is good" - Bible says (New Testament) that all our deeds are as filty rags - we do absolutly nothing that is good.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think whats obsurd is all your analogies. You keep missing the point. if ALL THINGS are ultimately sourced from God, then EVIL ALSO SOURCES FROM GOD. Thats pretty clear isn't it? So either all things come from God, or man is capable of creating some of them himself. Which is it?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Man is sourced from God. Free Will is sourced from God. Neither of those, at creation, were inherently evil. Man CHOSE evil by rejecting God. - So there you have it, either Man has the ability to choose evil, or God sucessfully creates organic robots. Evil does not source from God - rather from Man who chose it.
Evil is a byproduct of Gods good nature. Because there is 100% there is also less than 100%. Does God cause evil? No, But by his very nature of being perfect, there is by definition "imperfection".
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Feb 15 2005, 04:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Feb 15 2005, 04:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Man is sourced from God. Free Will is sourced from God. Neither of those, at creation, were inherently evil. Man CHOSE evil by rejecting God. - So there you have it, either Man has the ability to choose evil, or God sucessfully creates organic robots. Evil does not source from God - rather from Man who chose it.
Evil is a byproduct of Gods good nature. Because there is 100% there is also less than 100%. Does God cause evil? No, But by his very nature of being perfect, there is by definition "imperfection". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well if God loves us so much why would he put us on Earth first and expose us to this evil?
Why not just keep us in heaven from the get go?
And if it's the definitions that are bothering you, perhaps we could change the definition of "perfection" to represent something more perfect then God?
Free will really seems like more of a punishment then a help, if the ultimate joy that we can ever attain is to reach heaven, and God loves us, why force us through a maze before letting us in?
And of course we can get into all other kinds of scenarios, why did God make us so fragile? Why so emotionally unstable? If I were to, in a moment of uncontrollable rage, kill a man, and I had never known of the Christian God and never repented, would I go to hell?
Why would God give us the ability to turn away from him? That’s not love because the punishment for turning away from something we can't understand is eternal damnation.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Feb 15 2005, 04:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Feb 15 2005, 04:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why would God give us the ability to turn away from him? That’s not love because the punishment for turning away from something we can't understand is eternal damnation. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Love does not exist without a choice. God could have chosen to create a race of robots that would praise him constantly, but their love would be shallow, an execution of a program, and would yield no joy.
Free will gives the opportunity for misuse, to be angry against God and rebel, but it also allows for true love to occur. It's like, for example, giving someone a gun, and telling them that with it they can hunt all the game they wish for the rest of their lives, give it to their friends, and be happy. Eating means nothing if it's programmed, so a person has to be given free choice to use the tools God's given them. If a person wants to use that free choice to kill someone, then that's their choice to abuse the freedom God's given them. Since God is a just God, there is punishment for such misuse. Would you rather have the totally righteous sharing a room in heaven with the totally depraved?
Let us not forget, however, that through Christ, God has provided a free, all encompassing way to absolve ourselves of the moral guilt we have. Again, we have the free choice to read the gospels, see what Christ was all about, and make the decision to ask for that gift, and we also have the choice to laugh in God's face.
<!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Feb 15 2005, 05:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 15 2005, 05:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Love does not exist without a choice. God could have chosen to create a race of robots that would praise him constantly, but their love would be shallow, an execution of a program, and would yield no joy. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> An all knowing all powerful deity that requires/desires it's creations to worship it...now <i>that</i> sounds kind of shallow...don't you think?
Does God need our love, does he get lonely, is it crucial for his existence, could he simply fade from existence if we chose not to believe in him? Are we the source of his power? I'm trying to think of a reason for him to even bother with keeping us around, or for that matter, creating us to begin with.
Was he board? These things and further evidence in the Bible points to a much more human God, with all sorts of emotions (and not Jesus, I mean God as he is in the OT), but as we know anything like a human will have flaws like a human.
Skulkbait, you still haven't answered my proposal and keep insisting that evil is some sort of separate entity. Why?
You yourself said that a comet killing people is not evil because it can't think, doesn't have choice, etc etc. So what is the difference? Obviously not the act itself - that of killing millions of people - but rather the intelligence, the motive, the choice behind it. So what is this whole deal about "God created evil?" You mean that God creating free will was evil, because it led to humans using their choices to evil ends means that God is to blame for evil? Har, irresponsible and a terrible position. That's like saying that a metalsmith is evil because the butter knife he made was used to murder someone.
@reasa, it's not important why God created us, really. And it's probably for reasons we can't comprehend. You also haven't read what I already posted earlier. God *must* require us to obey him. He is the source of all being, once we sever ties with him we will cease to exist, because he's what's giving us existence. Since God is the source of all good, he would also want all his creations to experience that good. He didn't put us on this world to experience this evil, we did. If you're wondering why he didn't give us an escape route from evil, he did.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If I were to, in a moment of uncontrollable rage, kill a man, and I had never known of the Christian God and never repented, would I go to hell? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure that killing someone is what assigns someone to hell in this scenerio. According to Jesus: "I am the way, the truth, and the life - no one gets to the Father but through me." (Father = heaven) In other words, according to Jesus, belief in him and his death on the cross are of parimount importance when discussing someones fate after death.
The act of killing someone is the outward personification of an evil that condemns all of us to hell. In God's eyes, all have sinned and should go to hell. It is thanks to his grace that some do not.
If you read C.S. Lewis's Chronicles of Narnia, I think the Last Battle (book 7) has a decent representation fo what goes on. I don't think God holds you accountable for things you don't know about. And if you don't call him "YHWH" or whatever, I don't think it matters. It'd be pretty ridiculous if God judged based on your speech.
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Feb 15 2005, 04:24 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Feb 15 2005, 04:24 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Man is sourced from God. Free Will is sourced from God. Neither of those, at creation, were inherently evil. Man CHOSE evil by rejecting God. - So there you have it, either Man has the ability to choose evil, or God sucessfully creates organic robots. Evil does not source from God - rather from Man who chose it.
Evil is a byproduct of Gods good nature. Because there is 100% there is also less than 100%. Does God cause evil? No, But by his very nature of being perfect, there is by definition "imperfection". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah ha! So there it is. Not all things are sourced from God, man can create some things himself.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Skulkbait, you still haven't answered my proposal and keep insisting that evil is some sort of separate entity. Why?
You yourself said that a comet killing people is not evil because it can't think, doesn't have choice, etc etc. So what is the difference? Obviously not the act itself - that of killing millions of people - but rather the intelligence, the motive, the choice behind it. So what is this whole deal about "God created evil?" You mean that God creating free will was evil, because it led to humans using their choices to evil ends means that God is to blame for evil? Har, irresponsible and a terrible position. That's like saying that a metalsmith is evil because the butter knife he made was used to murder someone.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I wasn't saying that nessesarily. I was trying to force you (plural) to recognize that your statements of "all things are sourced from God" and "Evil is not sourced from God" were contradictory. You can have one or the other, but not both.
<!--QuoteBegin-Legionnaired+Feb 15 2005, 05:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Legionnaired @ Feb 15 2005, 05:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Feb 15 2005, 04:53 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Feb 15 2005, 04:53 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why would God give us the ability to turn away from him? That’s not love because the punishment for turning away from something we can't understand is eternal damnation. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Love does not exist without a choice. God could have chosen to create a race of robots that would praise him constantly, but their love would be shallow, an execution of a program, and would yield no joy.
Free will gives the opportunity for misuse, to be angry against God and rebel, but it also allows for true love to occur. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually you're wrong. God doesn't give us 'free will', he anything god gives us the ILLUSION of free will.
What god is basically saying is 'Hey guys, you can do what you want, but you better do what I say or you'll suffer'. That's not free will. Rebelling against god, being angry or upset, rejecting him, all that is a ticket to hell. Anything but worship and praise means eternal damnation or at best, you get to hang out in Limbo.
God could've created a race of robots programmed to worship him. Instead he created a race of creatures who had the capability to worship something or someone ELSE, and then god said 'Hey you little ****, listen up. I'm in charge here, worship me or burn forever.'
You really call that 'free choice'? Sounds a lot more like a brutal fascism then a loving religion. "Hey guys, welcome to my country! We're great!" "No, not really, that country over there has more money and live longer then us. Plus, they have running water." "... guards, throw him in jail."
As you said in another thread....
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What most people fail to realize is that one sin is just as bad as another. "Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God," and "The wages of sin is death." We're all worthy of the same punishment that we ourselves would heap on that murderer, because any sin is a barefaced rebellion against God.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I see where you are coming from (after re-reading 5 pages of posts). And it probably doesn't surprise you, but I believe you are starting a symantic war that neither of us want to fight.
First of all, to quote us correctly, we said "All things are Created and Sustained by God"
I (not wanting to drag anyone with me) also said "Man CHOSE evil by rejecting God." - which in turn was paraphrazed by you as "man created evil". At this point, we apparently fell into a well laid trap that no Christian in the history of the world has ever seen before.
I propose that you are looking at the situation incorrectly. Think of evil this way - it is a distortion of that which is good. Some common examples: Alcohol = good, Drunkenness = evil; Sex = good, Adultury = evil; Oaths = good, taking Gods name in vain = evil... you get the idea.
So, did God create evil? - is evil even a creation? - I know that many argue that evil is not created, nor can it create - rather it is a distortion of the good that God created. So yes, maybe God created evil by creating the good that was distorted, or maybe No, Man did the distorting and is now "creator of evil" - or perhaps it was Satan who fell prior to the creation of the world, and tempted Eve to disobey God - Does it really matter?
<!--QuoteBegin-Pepe Muffassa+Feb 15 2005, 08:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Feb 15 2005, 08:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So yes, maybe God created evil by creating the good that was distorted, or maybe No, Man did the distorting and is now "creator of evil" - or perhaps it was Satan who fell prior to the creation of the world, and tempted Eve to disobey God <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Satan, still being one of God's creations, would fall under the same arguments I used for man.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - Does it really matter?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In a sense, yes.... but also no. If man is the source of evil then man has done something God cannot. God's omnipotence is in question. If God is the source of evil, well, then we've settled the topic now havent we?
You know the funny thing, which has been brought up here a few times, is that God, being omniscient, knew that Adam and Eve would sin, knew that Satan would cause them to sin, knew that he would have to cast them out of the garden, but created Satan, the tree of knowledge, Adam, and eve anyway. To me this suggests that God made mankind to suffer, why else would he have set in place a sequence of events that would lead to our exile? He could have just as easily put the damned tree somwhere else if he felt he needed to have it so bad.
Yes you guys have yet to answer a very important part of my argument, if God is all powerful, then he knows every choice we will make before we make it, so how is that free will?
He knew, as SkulkBait said, that Eve would do as she did, yet he did nothing to stop the snake. His inaction was the downfall of the human race.
And honestly talk about holding a grudge...I, personally, wouldn't have taken the god damn apple, question me if you will, but if the guy who <i>made me</i> tells me not to touch his freaking tree...I'm not even going to look at it. Kind of makes me mad that God is punishing all of humanity because his first two humans turned out retarded.
Why allow Satan to roam freely on the planet?
Ugh I could type so much more but these religious debates tick me off so much.
Arguing about religion like this is like sitting in a pitch black room with your friend and fighting over what color the walls are.
Nether of us knows and nether of us can prove the other right or wrong ether way.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Feb 15 2005, 09:26 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Feb 15 2005, 09:26 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why did He create the tree of knowledge? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Because he wanted humankind to fall into sin. Seriously, what did he think was going to happen if he imbued us with curiosity, gave us an object to be curious about, and gave us time to satisfy our curiosity?
God creates Eden and admires His work. "The Garden of Eden's looking mighty fine, if I do so so myself. But it's missing something...hmmm...I know! It needs a tree of knowledge!"
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Feb 15 2005, 09:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Feb 15 2005, 09:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> God creates Eden and admires His work. "The Garden of Eden's looking mighty fine, if I do so so myself. But it's missing something...hmmm...I know! It needs a tree of knowledge!"
:/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well hang on here lets lay something out, those of you who are defending God and the Bible here; do you personally believe the OT is fact?
Because all of the Christians I know, when pressed, will admit they find it very hard to believe that a "Garden of Eden" existed or a "Flooding of the Earth” took place. Let’s not even start on the two of every animal…simply isn’t possible…ever. Period.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Feb 15 2005, 09:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Feb 15 2005, 09:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Feb 15 2005, 09:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Feb 15 2005, 09:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> God creates Eden and admires His work. "The Garden of Eden's looking mighty fine, if I do so so myself. But it's missing something...hmmm...I know! It needs a tree of knowledge!"
:/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well hang on here lets lay something out, those of you who are defending God and the Bible here; do you personally believe the OT is fact?
Because all of the Christians I know, when pressed, will admit they find it very hard to believe that a "Garden of Eden" existed or a "Flooding of the Earth” took place. Let’s not even start on the two of every animal…simply isn’t possible…ever. Period.
So please let me know where you stand. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe I've argued with enough of them to answer this:
Aegrei (sorta christian): OT obviously fiction in parts, should not be interpreted literally Marine01: OT definatly 100% accurate Pepe Muffassa: OT definatly 100% accurate Wheee: OT definatly 100% accurate Swiftspear: OT obviously fiction in parts, should not be interpreted literally Legionnaired: OT definatly 100% accurate Sky: OT obviously fiction in parts, should not be interpreted literally (I think)
....That covers most of em... at least the active ones.
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Feb 15 2005, 09:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Feb 15 2005, 09:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Because all of the Christians I know, when pressed, will admit they find it very hard to believe that a "Garden of Eden" existed or a "Flooding of the Earth” took place. Let’s not even start on the two of every animal…simply isn’t possible…ever. Period. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Those Christians are the good guys. The literalists, who say that every single letter in the Bible is true, are the ones that are a negative force on society.
<!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Feb 15 2005, 07:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Feb 15 2005, 07:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I wasn't saying that nessesarily. I was trying to force you (plural) to recognize that your statements of "all things are sourced from God" and "Evil is not sourced from God" were contradictory. You can have one or the other, but not both. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And I was trying to hint that evil isn't a *thing* at all. You have to distinguish between moral evil and suffering/physical evil here. Moral evil obviously isn't a thing, because it's an attribute of man's poor choices by God's perfect standards. Suffering is a different matter. I would say that moral evil causes physical evil. If a person chooses not to follow God, who comprises all good, then he becomes susceptible to negative experiences - much like a chain of paper clips, once detached from a magnet, loses its magnetic properties.
@theclam, qualify your assertion that literalists are a negative force?
<!--QuoteBegin-Wheeee+Feb 16 2005, 01:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Feb 16 2005, 01:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SkulkBait+Feb 15 2005, 07:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Feb 15 2005, 07:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I wasn't saying that nessesarily. I was trying to force you (plural) to recognize that your statements of "all things are sourced from God" and "Evil is not sourced from God" were contradictory. You can have one or the other, but not both. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And I was trying to hint that evil isn't a *thing* at all. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Neither is "good" a thing, yet you say that God is the source of that.
I hope these quotations help you as they have helped me understand myself in a more humble light.
<!--QuoteBegin-Of Thomas Aquinas+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Of Thomas Aquinas)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Seven hundred years ago, on March 7, 1274, Friar Thomas Aquinas, aged 49, died on his way to the Council of Lyons. His death, then unexpected, is still unexplained. The sole fact that seems historically secure is that, following the four years of well-nigh incredibly productive intellectual work of his second professional stay at the University of Paris, Thomas underwent an intense personal experience on December 6, 1273, which caused him to cease writing forever. That experience may have been a stroke, some form of physical or nervous breakdown, or a mystical experience. (In his important new study Friar Thomas d’Aquino, Father James A. Weisheipl rather puzzlingly suggests that it was a combination of all three.) Whatever its explanation, the fact is that Thomas never wrote again. When his several admirers asked him why, he replied, "I cannot, for all that I have written seems like straw to me."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-C.S. Lewis+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (C.S. Lewis)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From the rational point of view what grounds has Helen's death given me for doubting all that I believe? Should it, for a sane man, make quite such a difference as this? No. And it wouldn't for a man whose faith had been real faith. The case is too plain. If my house has collapsed at one blow it is because it was a house of cards. Indeed, it's likely enough that what I shall call, if it happens, a 'restoration of faith', will turn out to be only one more house of cards.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Xenophanes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xenophanes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The gods have not revealed all things from the beginning to mortals; but, by seeking, men find out, in time, what is better. No man knows the truth, nor will there be a man who has knowledge about the gods and what i say about everything. For even if he were to hit by chance upon the whole truth, he himself would not be aware of having done so, but each forms his own opinion. Let these things, then, be taken as like the truth.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Heraclitus+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Heraclitus)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All things come into being through opposition, and all are in flux, like a river.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Heraclitus+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Heraclitus)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->War is the father and king of all...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Heractlitus+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Heractlitus)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is necessary to understand that war is universal and justice is strife, and that all things take place in accordance with strife and necessity.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Xenophanes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xenophanes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Ethiopians make their gods snub-nosed and black; the Thracians make theirs gray-eyed and red-haired. And if oxen and horses and lions had hands and do what man can do, horses would draw the gods in the shape of horses, and oxen in the shape of oxen, each giving the gods bodies similiar to their own.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Feb 15 2005, 09:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Feb 15 2005, 09:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Feb 15 2005, 09:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Feb 15 2005, 09:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> God creates Eden and admires His work. "The Garden of Eden's looking mighty fine, if I do so so myself. But it's missing something...hmmm...I know! It needs a tree of knowledge!"
:/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well hang on here lets lay something out, those of you who are defending God and the Bible here; do you personally believe the OT is fact?
Because all of the Christians I know, when pressed, will admit they find it very hard to believe that a "Garden of Eden" existed or a "Flooding of the Earth” took place. Let’s not even start on the two of every animal…simply isn’t possible…ever. Period.
So please let me know where you stand. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yes... I'm sure god who created the entire universe in a week... really would have a hard time finding enough fater to flood one little planet.... and getting a bunch of animals on the ark... come on of course he could do it!
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 16 2005, 02:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 16 2005, 02:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> yes... I'm sure god who created the entire universe in a week... really would have a hard time finding enough fater to flood one little planet.... and getting a bunch of animals on the ark... come on of course he could do it!
oh ye have little faith <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Considering "a week" didn't even exist at the time, how in the world can you believe that is true?
It's simply man applying God to things in his everyday life.
I know that, I know that god doesn't even have time (its not really importent when your eternal) but I'm just saying, for dramatical purposes, that god can do anything. why he choses to let things happen is because its probly for the best as far as us learning and growing is concerened
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 16 2005, 02:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 16 2005, 02:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> yes... I'm sure god who created the entire universe in a week... really would have a hard time finding enough fater to flood one little planet.... and getting a bunch of animals on the ark... come on of course he could do it!
oh ye have little faith <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wouldn't it have made more sense for Him to use His powers to instantly kill everyone except Noah and his family? Especially since drowning is not a nice way to go. Instant death would be a lot more merciful.
Hell, he could have created another Earth, shoved them on there, and left them to it. That way, Noah is spared, but everyone else doesn't die.
<!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Feb 16 2005, 06:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Feb 16 2005, 06:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 16 2005, 02:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 16 2005, 02:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> yes... I'm sure god who created the entire universe in a week... really would have a hard time finding enough fater to flood one little planet.... and getting a bunch of animals on the ark... come on of course he could do it!
oh ye have little faith <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wouldn't it have made more sense for Him to use His powers to instantly kill everyone except Noah and his family? Especially since drowning is not a nice way to go. Instant death would be a lot more merciful.
Hell, he could have created another Earth, shoved them on there, and left them to it. That way, Noah is spared, but everyone else doesn't die. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually he couldn't of. there cuz the earth had to be baptised. once by water and once by fire (the fire one hasn't happened yet) and so thats why there had to be a flood. plus the whole Flooding /cleansing feel was much more symbolic then a strange mysterous instant death.
<!--QuoteBegin-theclam+Feb 15 2005, 10:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (theclam @ Feb 15 2005, 10:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-reasa+Feb 15 2005, 09:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa @ Feb 15 2005, 09:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Because all of the Christians I know, when pressed, will admit they find it very hard to believe that a "Garden of Eden" existed or a "Flooding of the Earth” took place. Let’s not even start on the two of every animal…simply isn’t possible…ever. Period. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Those Christians are the good guys. The literalists, who say that every single letter in the Bible is true, are the ones that are a negative force on society. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Quoted for emphasis.
<!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 16 2005, 09:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 16 2005, 09:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Snidely+Feb 16 2005, 06:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Feb 16 2005, 06:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-AvengerX+Feb 16 2005, 02:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 16 2005, 02:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> yes... I'm sure god who created the entire universe in a week... really would have a hard time finding enough fater to flood one little planet.... and getting a bunch of animals on the ark... come on of course he could do it!
oh ye have little faith <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Wouldn't it have made more sense for Him to use His powers to instantly kill everyone except Noah and his family? Especially since drowning is not a nice way to go. Instant death would be a lot more merciful.
Hell, he could have created another Earth, shoved them on there, and left them to it. That way, Noah is spared, but everyone else doesn't die. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually he couldn't of. there cuz the earth had to be baptised. once by water and once by fire (the fire one hasn't happened yet) and so thats why there had to be a flood. plus the whole Flooding /cleansing feel was much more symbolic then a strange mysterous instant death. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So god isn't a mysterious god, he's a symbolic god.
I'm going to give up trying to be a untinsil in the lords hands here. I figure this is neither the time or the place to represent the big guy. and so I'm just going to stop trying to defend our father which is in heaven and just listen and see what you guys think
Comments
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think whats obsurd is all your analogies. You keep missing the point. if ALL THINGS are ultimately sourced from God, then EVIL ALSO SOURCES FROM GOD. Thats pretty clear isn't it? So either all things come from God, or man is capable of creating some of them himself. Which is it?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Man is sourced from God. Free Will is sourced from God. Neither of those, at creation, were inherently evil. Man CHOSE evil by rejecting God. - So there you have it, either Man has the ability to choose evil, or God sucessfully creates organic robots. Evil does not source from God - rather from Man who chose it.
Evil is a byproduct of Gods good nature. Because there is 100% there is also less than 100%. Does God cause evil? No, But by his very nature of being perfect, there is by definition "imperfection".
Evil is a byproduct of Gods good nature. Because there is 100% there is also less than 100%. Does God cause evil? No, But by his very nature of being perfect, there is by definition "imperfection". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well if God loves us so much why would he put us on Earth first and expose us to this evil?
Why not just keep us in heaven from the get go?
And if it's the definitions that are bothering you, perhaps we could change the definition of "perfection" to represent something more perfect then God?
Free will really seems like more of a punishment then a help, if the ultimate joy that we can ever attain is to reach heaven, and God loves us, why force us through a maze before letting us in?
And of course we can get into all other kinds of scenarios, why did God make us so fragile? Why so emotionally unstable? If I were to, in a moment of uncontrollable rage, kill a man, and I had never known of the Christian God and never repented, would I go to hell?
Why would God give us the ability to turn away from him? That’s not love because the punishment for turning away from something we can't understand is eternal damnation.
Love does not exist without a choice. God could have chosen to create a race of robots that would praise him constantly, but their love would be shallow, an execution of a program, and would yield no joy.
Free will gives the opportunity for misuse, to be angry against God and rebel, but it also allows for true love to occur. It's like, for example, giving someone a gun, and telling them that with it they can hunt all the game they wish for the rest of their lives, give it to their friends, and be happy. Eating means nothing if it's programmed, so a person has to be given free choice to use the tools God's given them. If a person wants to use that free choice to kill someone, then that's their choice to abuse the freedom God's given them. Since God is a just God, there is punishment for such misuse. Would you rather have the totally righteous sharing a room in heaven with the totally depraved?
Let us not forget, however, that through Christ, God has provided a free, all encompassing way to absolve ourselves of the moral guilt we have. Again, we have the free choice to read the gospels, see what Christ was all about, and make the decision to ask for that gift, and we also have the choice to laugh in God's face.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
An all knowing all powerful deity that requires/desires it's creations to worship it...now <i>that</i> sounds kind of shallow...don't you think?
Does God need our love, does he get lonely, is it crucial for his existence, could he simply fade from existence if we chose not to believe in him?
Are we the source of his power? I'm trying to think of a reason for him to even bother with keeping us around, or for that matter, creating us to begin with.
Was he board? These things and further evidence in the Bible points to a much more human God, with all sorts of emotions (and not Jesus, I mean God as he is in the OT), but as we know anything like a human will have flaws like a human.
Edit: wording
You yourself said that a comet killing people is not evil because it can't think, doesn't have choice, etc etc. So what is the difference? Obviously not the act itself - that of killing millions of people - but rather the intelligence, the motive, the choice behind it. So what is this whole deal about "God created evil?" You mean that God creating free will was evil, because it led to humans using their choices to evil ends means that God is to blame for evil? Har, irresponsible and a terrible position. That's like saying that a metalsmith is evil because the butter knife he made was used to murder someone.
@reasa, it's not important why God created us, really. And it's probably for reasons we can't comprehend. You also haven't read what I already posted earlier. God *must* require us to obey him. He is the source of all being, once we sever ties with him we will cease to exist, because he's what's giving us existence. Since God is the source of all good, he would also want all his creations to experience that good. He didn't put us on this world to experience this evil, we did. If you're wondering why he didn't give us an escape route from evil, he did.
*edit* spelling
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure that killing someone is what assigns someone to hell in this scenerio. According to Jesus: "I am the way, the truth, and the life - no one gets to the Father but through me." (Father = heaven) In other words, according to Jesus, belief in him and his death on the cross are of parimount importance when discussing someones fate after death.
The act of killing someone is the outward personification of an evil that condemns all of us to hell. In God's eyes, all have sinned and should go to hell. It is thanks to his grace that some do not.
Evil is a byproduct of Gods good nature. Because there is 100% there is also less than 100%. Does God cause evil? No, But by his very nature of being perfect, there is by definition "imperfection". <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah ha! So there it is. Not all things are sourced from God, man can create some things himself.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Skulkbait, you still haven't answered my proposal and keep insisting that evil is some sort of separate entity. Why?
You yourself said that a comet killing people is not evil because it can't think, doesn't have choice, etc etc. So what is the difference? Obviously not the act itself - that of killing millions of people - but rather the intelligence, the motive, the choice behind it. So what is this whole deal about "God created evil?" You mean that God creating free will was evil, because it led to humans using their choices to evil ends means that God is to blame for evil? Har, irresponsible and a terrible position. That's like saying that a metalsmith is evil because the butter knife he made was used to murder someone.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't saying that nessesarily. I was trying to force you (plural) to recognize that your statements of "all things are sourced from God" and "Evil is not sourced from God" were contradictory. You can have one or the other, but not both.
Love does not exist without a choice. God could have chosen to create a race of robots that would praise him constantly, but their love would be shallow, an execution of a program, and would yield no joy.
Free will gives the opportunity for misuse, to be angry against God and rebel, but it also allows for true love to occur. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually you're wrong. God doesn't give us 'free will', he anything god gives us the ILLUSION of free will.
What god is basically saying is 'Hey guys, you can do what you want, but you better do what I say or you'll suffer'. That's not free will. Rebelling against god, being angry or upset, rejecting him, all that is a ticket to hell. Anything but worship and praise means eternal damnation or at best, you get to hang out in Limbo.
God could've created a race of robots programmed to worship him. Instead he created a race of creatures who had the capability to worship something or someone ELSE, and then god said 'Hey you little ****, listen up. I'm in charge here, worship me or burn forever.'
You really call that 'free choice'? Sounds a lot more like a brutal fascism then a loving religion. "Hey guys, welcome to my country! We're great!" "No, not really, that country over there has more money and live longer then us. Plus, they have running water." "... guards, throw him in jail."
As you said in another thread....
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What most people fail to realize is that one sin is just as bad as another. "Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and fallen short of the glory of God," and "The wages of sin is death." We're all worthy of the same punishment that we ourselves would heap on that murderer, because any sin is a barefaced rebellion against God.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Uh huh, great religion you have there.
Then, I was like, wohhhho
Finally I was like wuuuuuuoooooooooaaaaaaahhh.
I see where you are coming from (after re-reading 5 pages of posts). And it probably doesn't surprise you, but I believe you are starting a symantic war that neither of us want to fight.
First of all, to quote us correctly, we said "All things are Created and Sustained by God"
I (not wanting to drag anyone with me) also said "Man CHOSE evil by rejecting God." - which in turn was paraphrazed by you as "man created evil". At this point, we apparently fell into a well laid trap that no Christian in the history of the world has ever seen before.
I propose that you are looking at the situation incorrectly. Think of evil this way - it is a distortion of that which is good.
Some common examples: Alcohol = good, Drunkenness = evil; Sex = good, Adultury = evil; Oaths = good, taking Gods name in vain = evil... you get the idea.
So, did God create evil? - is evil even a creation? - I know that many argue that evil is not created, nor can it create - rather it is a distortion of the good that God created. So yes, maybe God created evil by creating the good that was distorted, or maybe No, Man did the distorting and is now "creator of evil" - or perhaps it was Satan who fell prior to the creation of the world, and tempted Eve to disobey God - Does it really matter?
Satan, still being one of God's creations, would fall under the same arguments I used for man.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - Does it really matter?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In a sense, yes.... but also no. If man is the source of evil then man has done something God cannot. God's omnipotence is in question. If God is the source of evil, well, then we've settled the topic now havent we?
You know the funny thing, which has been brought up here a few times, is that God, being omniscient, knew that Adam and Eve would sin, knew that Satan would cause them to sin, knew that he would have to cast them out of the garden, but created Satan, the tree of knowledge, Adam, and eve anyway. To me this suggests that God made mankind to suffer, why else would he have set in place a sequence of events that would lead to our exile? He could have just as easily put the damned tree somwhere else if he felt he needed to have it so bad.
He knew, as SkulkBait said, that Eve would do as she did, yet he did nothing to stop the snake. His inaction was the downfall of the human race.
And honestly talk about holding a grudge...I, personally, wouldn't have taken the god damn apple, question me if you will, but if the guy who <i>made me</i> tells me not to touch his freaking tree...I'm not even going to look at it. Kind of makes me mad that God is punishing all of humanity because his first two humans turned out retarded.
Why allow Satan to roam freely on the planet?
Ugh I could type so much more but these religious debates tick me off so much.
Arguing about religion like this is like sitting in a pitch black room with your friend and fighting over what color the walls are.
Nether of us knows and nether of us can prove the other right or wrong ether way.
Because he wanted humankind to fall into sin. Seriously, what did he think was going to happen if he imbued us with curiosity, gave us an object to be curious about, and gave us time to satisfy our curiosity?
:/
:/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well hang on here lets lay something out, those of you who are defending God and the Bible here; do you personally believe the OT is fact?
Because all of the Christians I know, when pressed, will admit they find it very hard to believe that a "Garden of Eden" existed or a "Flooding of the Earth” took place. Let’s not even start on the two of every animal…simply isn’t possible…ever. Period.
So please let me know where you stand.
:/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well hang on here lets lay something out, those of you who are defending God and the Bible here; do you personally believe the OT is fact?
Because all of the Christians I know, when pressed, will admit they find it very hard to believe that a "Garden of Eden" existed or a "Flooding of the Earth” took place. Let’s not even start on the two of every animal…simply isn’t possible…ever. Period.
So please let me know where you stand. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe I've argued with enough of them to answer this:
Aegrei (sorta christian): OT obviously fiction in parts, should not be interpreted literally
Marine01: OT definatly 100% accurate
Pepe Muffassa: OT definatly 100% accurate
Wheee: OT definatly 100% accurate
Swiftspear: OT obviously fiction in parts, should not be interpreted literally
Legionnaired: OT definatly 100% accurate
Sky: OT obviously fiction in parts, should not be interpreted literally (I think)
....That covers most of em... at least the active ones.
Those Christians are the good guys. The literalists, who say that every single letter in the Bible is true, are the ones that are a negative force on society.
And I was trying to hint that evil isn't a *thing* at all. You have to distinguish between moral evil and suffering/physical evil here. Moral evil obviously isn't a thing, because it's an attribute of man's poor choices by God's perfect standards. Suffering is a different matter. I would say that moral evil causes physical evil. If a person chooses not to follow God, who comprises all good, then he becomes susceptible to negative experiences - much like a chain of paper clips, once detached from a magnet, loses its magnetic properties.
@theclam, qualify your assertion that literalists are a negative force?
And I was trying to hint that evil isn't a *thing* at all. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Neither is "good" a thing, yet you say that God is the source of that.
<!--QuoteBegin-Of Thomas Aquinas+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Of Thomas Aquinas)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Seven hundred years ago, on March 7, 1274, Friar Thomas Aquinas, aged 49, died on his way to the Council of Lyons. His death, then unexpected, is still unexplained. The sole fact that seems historically secure is that, following the four years of well-nigh incredibly productive intellectual work of his second professional stay at the University of Paris, Thomas underwent an intense personal experience on December 6, 1273, which caused him to cease writing forever. That experience may have been a stroke, some form of physical or nervous breakdown, or a mystical experience. (In his important new study Friar Thomas d’Aquino, Father James A. Weisheipl rather puzzlingly suggests that it was a combination of all three.) Whatever its explanation, the fact is that Thomas never wrote again. When his several admirers asked him why, he replied, "I cannot, for all that I have written seems like straw to me."<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-C.S. Lewis+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (C.S. Lewis)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->From the rational point of view what grounds has Helen's death given me for doubting all that I believe? Should it, for a sane man, make quite such a difference as this? No. And it wouldn't for a man whose faith had been real faith. The case is too plain. If my house has collapsed at one blow it is because it was a house of cards. Indeed, it's likely enough that what I shall call, if it happens, a 'restoration of faith', will turn out to be only one more house of cards.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Xenophanes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xenophanes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The gods have not revealed all things from the beginning to mortals; but, by seeking, men find out, in time, what is better. No man knows the truth, nor will there be a man who has knowledge about the gods and what i say about everything. For even if he were to hit by chance upon the whole truth, he himself would not be aware of having done so, but each forms his own opinion. Let these things, then, be taken as like the truth.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Heraclitus+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Heraclitus)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->All things come into being through opposition, and all are in flux, like a river.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Heraclitus+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Heraclitus)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->War is the father and king of all...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Heractlitus+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Heractlitus)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It is necessary to understand that war is universal and justice is strife, and that all things take place in accordance with strife and necessity.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Xenophanes+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xenophanes)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The Ethiopians make their gods snub-nosed and black; the Thracians make theirs gray-eyed and red-haired. And if oxen and horses and lions had hands and do what man can do, horses would draw the gods in the shape of horses, and oxen in the shape of oxen, each giving the gods bodies similiar to their own.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Peace.
:/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well hang on here lets lay something out, those of you who are defending God and the Bible here; do you personally believe the OT is fact?
Because all of the Christians I know, when pressed, will admit they find it very hard to believe that a "Garden of Eden" existed or a "Flooding of the Earth” took place. Let’s not even start on the two of every animal…simply isn’t possible…ever. Period.
So please let me know where you stand. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
yes... I'm sure god who created the entire universe in a week... really would have a hard time finding enough fater to flood one little planet.... and getting a bunch of animals on the ark... come on of course he could do it!
oh ye have little faith
oh ye have little faith <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering "a week" didn't even exist at the time, how in the world can you believe that is true?
It's simply man applying God to things in his everyday life.
Examples besides the WWI, and WWII.
Crusades, Islams' Jihad, Wounded Knee, and a few others. I'm sure the NDCC would be more then happy to tell you about them.. both past and present.
<a href='http://www.ndcc.gov.ph/' target='_blank'>NDCC Home page, National Disaster Coordinating Council</a>
oh ye have little faith <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wouldn't it have made more sense for Him to use His powers to instantly kill everyone except Noah and his family? Especially since drowning is not a nice way to go. Instant death would be a lot more merciful.
Hell, he could have created another Earth, shoved them on there, and left them to it. That way, Noah is spared, but everyone else doesn't die.
oh ye have little faith <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wouldn't it have made more sense for Him to use His powers to instantly kill everyone except Noah and his family? Especially since drowning is not a nice way to go. Instant death would be a lot more merciful.
Hell, he could have created another Earth, shoved them on there, and left them to it. That way, Noah is spared, but everyone else doesn't die. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually he couldn't of. there cuz the earth had to be baptised. once by water and once by fire (the fire one hasn't happened yet) and so thats why there had to be a flood. plus the whole Flooding /cleansing feel was much more symbolic then a strange mysterous instant death.
Those Christians are the good guys. The literalists, who say that every single letter in the Bible is true, are the ones that are a negative force on society. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Quoted for emphasis.
oh ye have little faith <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wouldn't it have made more sense for Him to use His powers to instantly kill everyone except Noah and his family? Especially since drowning is not a nice way to go. Instant death would be a lot more merciful.
Hell, he could have created another Earth, shoved them on there, and left them to it. That way, Noah is spared, but everyone else doesn't die. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually he couldn't of. there cuz the earth had to be baptised. once by water and once by fire (the fire one hasn't happened yet) and so thats why there had to be a flood. plus the whole Flooding /cleansing feel was much more symbolic then a strange mysterous instant death. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So god isn't a mysterious god, he's a symbolic god.
This is rediculous...