Was The God Of The Old Testament "bad"?

Cyndane · February 2005

Oh no, not at all Pepe, I am enjoying this just as much as you. It really helps me pass the time at work when I can do uber google searches trying to back up what I am attempting to explain.

Ok.. if I am to understand correctly, I will admit it has been a few years since I've actually read the OT, so I probably don't remember everything exactly. I could have sworn that the Chronicles were a basic outline of the history of Israel and yet according to what I have read elsewhere (read non-christian sites, usually of a university and/or archelogical(sp) sites) they to affirm that the chronicles are a basic outline, but they have the time frame and exact details wrong.

Naturally no one actually expects to have every detail correct, especially when the OT was supposedly written, but if it were to be a historical text they would make it as accurate as possible and in some areas they are way off. I need to do some more reasearch on that particular topic though.

Soloman's temple... ok I did a bit of look up on it, and it appears it was an actual building, yet no one actually knows exactly what it looks like considering it was destoryed during yet another invasion and take over.

I am going to go out on a limb here and say what people think is solomon's temple is not, simply because that area is so prone to excessive violence and what not. In addition all of the sites I have read are using the bible to find its location, which is not a historical book. I haven't found a site (read reputable) that doesn't use the bible to say it found the location. I'm sorry but using a book of morals to find a historical location of some temple isn't exactly a good principle when it comes to uncovering the past.

I shall demostrate this by using the Book of the Dead as an example. No one is looking for the "Hall of Maati" because a book of legends and morals told them it exists, and it does list a location and semi-measurements, although they didn't use spans, feet, meters for those measurements. It was more of a how many people could fit in the hall at one time type of measurement.

Apos · February 2005

[QUOTE]To that end, Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice - completely satisfying the wrath of God. [/QUOTE]

Except for two rather often overlooked facts:

first of all, sacrifice is actually the LEAST IMPORTANT form of gaining forgiveness and the phophets had already declared (in the OT) that it should be done away with as a relic that was tempting too many to become like pagans. So there is no concept of "ultimate sacrifice."

second of all, HUMAN sacrifice as always described as accursed and evil and meaningless.

[quote]If Jesus hadn't died, we would still be stuck sacrificing goats and lambs. Jesus forgiving us / saving us is only possible because he died. [/quote

So Jesus really came to save not us, but goats and lambs? Nope. The sin sacrifice system had ALREADY long ago been done away with as a necessary component of Judaism by the time Jesus was written about. Forgiveness was already available via repentance and prayer. This is what Jews believe, and one reason that they are not waiting for a Messiah to save them from sin, but rather to bring world peace and universal acknowledgement of God (which are the ACTUAL signs of the messiah coming, not the nonsense prophecies about virgin births or riding on two donkeys at once that Christian apologists made up after the fact with their sloppy reading of the Torah)

[quote]By the way, keep living by those laws (except the sacrificial / ritual law - not needed because of Christ)"[/quote]

Except there are a lot of laws other than the sin sacrifice system that Christians don't follow. They pick and choose which to heed and which not to without any real rationale for it. Why is stoning an unruly child to death suddenly now a bad thing?

Spacer · February 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Feb 17 2005, 05:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Or "A huge man in the sky made us out of clay, along with all animals! Then we totally messed up by eating an apple that a snake told us to eat and now we have embarasment and labour pains. Jeez, we suck."
That's pretty original.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Spacer, I think you'd be interested to know that virtually all ancient civilizations (African, Mesopotamian, Indian, Chinese) had myths that closely paralleled the Adam&Eve story. Heh.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Oh well, DAMN. I TOTALLY GOT OWNED. No, wait.
I wasn't even knocking christianity, I was knocking AvengerX saying that "Dayum, the theory of evolution is so boring, why don't you come up with something interesting?".

Sky · February 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (reasa)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Arguing about religion like this is like sitting in a pitch black room with your friend and fighting over what color the walls are.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Reasa wins the thread. So much pointless discussion.....you atheists should be happy that religion exists; the Discussion forum would be a lot quieter without it. <_<

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (skulkbait)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Sky: OT obviously fiction in parts, should not be interpreted literally (I think)</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Yeah, pretty much. Some of the OT has almost nothing to do with actual religion, it's just history, and the rest......you know what, I really don't care. It's probably just some guys trying their best to record religious stories passed down through oral tradition; big frickin surprise that some of it doesn't make sense and/or match up with other stories.

More on the "I really don't care", and this is really bloody offtopic so if you don't care don't read:
I believe theologists are going to hell. Devoting your life to just interpreting a book? That's certainly not christian. Jesus said there were two important laws: Honor thy father and mother, and love thy neighbor as yourself. The honoring part I've done so far (it's hard with a bastard of a dad putting my family through a tough divorce, but it says "honor" not "like"). The loving part is, in my opinion, the most important part of being a Christian. Not going to church, not honoring the pope, not praying 3 times a day, no. Just be.a.good.person. It's so simple, yet so many people have trouble with it.

There are times when I'm embarrassed to be a Christian. I should NOT have to introduce my religion to people as, "I'm Catholic, but I don't hate homos, atheists, scientists, or any group in general." It's SICK the way some people act when it comes to religion. Avenger, what the hell was this:
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>this is a little off the subject, but if I was Atheist I woudln't pick some lame belief system like..."we grew from monkeys!" or something stupid like that. I'd pick something a little more interesting like... "we are descendents of the great mother ship that crashed on eath 10 trillion years ago... we must now rebuild our temples to signal the great mother ship to come return to us and take us back to the star planet of ipenojojo" or somethign like that.. ya know at least make it orginal</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Christ, the 6th and 7th pages of this thread should burn, I can't stand looking at them. I mean, and this is going back a while in the offtopic forum, but <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=87023' target='_blank'>link</a>

I'm still trying to wrap my head around how these guys could have perverted my religion as badly as this. It hurts my head and my heart, yet I see stuff like this everyday. Not as severe as this, of course, but still.

Likewise I try to wrap my head around why people bother to argue over the bible. It's a book, dammit. Read it once if you want, or just hear the important bits from your priest if you so desire, but why oh why does anyone truly care? There's one rule, I'll simplify it to "Don't be a jerk, and if you are be sorry about it." I don't see where arguing and/or studying the Bible fits in with that. If I live my life to the best of my ability, leading a loving life and all, do any of you really think I'll go to hell over before someone who follows all the "rules" but is a general unapologetic asshat most of his life? Somehow I doubt it.

Now, back <b>on topic</b>: To answer the original question, Skulkbait, about if God is or isn't a ****, after all he's put us through. First of all, you have to answer the question, "Would I rather exist in a troubled life, or not exist at all." If you've never committed suicide, and I'm gonna assume that you haven't, you know the answer to that question.

Secondly, you have to answer the question, "Why should I care about God's past, present, or future? If the God I know just loves me if I love others, is that really so bad?"

Of course, that only works if you follow my way of thinking about my religion. The trappings of Christianity are more complex than that, needlessly so I think. Simplify your reasoning down to the way I look at it, and it is perfectly clear that we have a pretty damn good deal. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' />

Snidely · February 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Feb 17 2005, 01:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> So much pointless discussion.....you atheists should be happy that religion exists; the Discussion forum would be a lot quieter without it. <_<  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
True, but it would also mean that every single thread doesn't somehow turn into a Godfest. >_<

Sky · February 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Snidely @ Feb 17 2005, 01:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Feb 17 2005, 01:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> So much pointless discussion.....you atheists should be happy that religion exists; the Discussion forum would be a lot quieter without it. <_< </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
True, but it would also mean that every single thread doesn't somehow turn into a Godfest. >_< </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Is that a positive or a negative. >_>

Snidely · February 2005

It's probably a neutral, since people would just go on about Iraq instead. Without Iraq, they'd bring up Bush. Without Bush, they'd bring up the UN. Without the UN, they'd bring up the validity of bean tariffs. Or maybe Hitler.

I wouldn't mind it so much if it didn't affect threads that were faintly interesting. I was enjoying that thread debating whether it's acceptable for leaders to be religious, then some guy yells "GOD SUCKS" and it's all over. Finished and done with. Some munchkin has tried to start it on the Bible/Mythology thread as well.

Pepe_Muffassa · February 2005

Man, we seem to but heads on everything <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' />

I would like you to qualify this statement - as I think it is inaccurate:

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>first of all, sacrifice is actually the LEAST IMPORTANT form of gaining forgiveness and the phophets had already declared (in the OT) that it should be done away with as a relic that was tempting too many to become like pagans. So there is no concept of "ultimate sacrifice."</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

As for this one, you are completely wrong.
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>So Jesus really came to save not us, but goats and lambs? Nope. The sin sacrifice system had ALREADY long ago been done away with as a necessary component of Judaism by the time Jesus was written about. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

You have heard of passover? - That involved the rememberance of God passing over the houses which had lambs blood on the doors - the blood was necessary to appease the wrath of God. Jesus celebrated the passover (last supper), and gave his "communiton" with his deciples. This was seen as a transfer of the significance of the passover onto Jesus - He was the spotless lamb that was appeasing Gods wrath.

So you see, Jews were still waiting for Messiah, and were still offering sacrifices. When Jesus was young he was presented at the temple (age 6 or so) so that his parents could worship there. Sacrifices were given at that time too.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>This is what Jews believe, and one reason that they are not waiting for a Messiah to save them from sin, but rather to bring world peace and universal acknowledgement of God</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Im not sure where you got this from - but "universal acknowledgement of God" seems like a much watered down Judaism to me. Prove that statement to me.

As for Human sacrifice v. Jesus dying on the cross - I understand where you are coming from as an unbliever, but I'm not going to take the time to explain all the nuances of the Christian faith to you. Suffice it to say, that is not a just comparison, and it is the type of comparison that people try to make when they want to "put down" Christianity. If you really wanted to know, I would explain it for you - but you don't, so I won't bother.

The same thing applies to the laws we follow - I would have to list out every possible scenerio and why it isn't a contradition - and even then you would go around in a circle and we would be back at square one. Suffice it to say, we have totally diffent bases for living our lives. I disagree with yours, and you disagree with mine. Thankfully, mine is the Bible - so your disagrement with it is between you and God.

reasa · February 2005

Well you see the thing is when I'm debating about Iran/Iraq/anything of that nature I can argue with proven facts and numbers and when people disagree with me they can argue back with their own facts and numbers. We have something to fall back on, something that gives structure and purpose to the discussion.

With religion...heh you have none of that, you have the religious people arguing so fervently about some minor part of the OT and their entire argument, or any argument they may make, can simply be defused with one brutishly simple statement: There is no proof that God exists.

The same goes for the atheist or anyone who doubts religion there is no proof that <b>A</b> God doesn’t exist. I would however bet my eternal soul that God as Christians portray him is 100% fiction...which is good because I most likely am. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

Anyway to sum it all up: Some **** has hit the fan in Lebanon...lets talk about it instead.

Pepe_Muffassa · February 2005

@wutlanfear:

The solomons temple thing is very interesting - I had a prof (history) whos hobby was following the trail of the Ark of the Covenant. He used literary references mostly to "find" it. Anyway, the temple mount is the location of a lot of various buildings - starting with solomons temple, then followed by at least 1 more (Nehemiah's time) - and now a mosque sits on top of it (Muslims were notorious for taking over other nations religious sites and sticking a mosque on them.) In any case, the trail of the ark end on the temple mount when the muslims take Jerusalem. My prof theorizes that the ark is located underneath the Mosque there -possibly sealed under the floor. Of course, that won't ever be found unless that mosque gets destroyed (so much for peace in the middle east).

In either case, Solomons temple was most likely on top of that same mount where the mosque is now. After all, Jerusalem isn't that big, and it is the highest hill in the city.

Cyndane · February 2005

@Pepe: Solomon's temple, as I have stated is merely a theory still. While I was waiting for your response, since everyone else seems to have gone off on a different tangent. I researched a bit deeper into the location of the temple. As I suspected no one is sure where it is actually located, there are a few out there that think it is under the mosque to which you refer to. I have also seen a few other sites (Read, .org, .gov) that dispute that, if you wish for references simply ask I would provide them but when you have a list of well over 100 sites I've looked at just this morning, well its hard to keep track of all of them.

[off topic] Before I continue further, I just want to say, we are not aruguing over the basic concepts of the bible, what is the discussion, and yes it is a discussion considering everyone involved is leaving their feelings out of the topic, are doing is attempting to prove the bible as a historical document, specifically the OT. In a different thread we are attempting to prove the NT is a historical document. So, those that do not wish to further this endeavor, should stop reading the thread, and of course as always no offense is intended. [/off topic]

As for the Judaism thing, yes I have a decent source there that I don't mind sharing.
<a href='http://www.religioustolerance.org/jud_desc.htm' target='_blank'>Religious Tolerance</a>

<b> Disclaimer: The term "G-d" is used in this essay to respect the Jewish prohibition against spelling the name or title of the deity in full. </b> (Extra knowledge FTW)
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
<b> * </b> Jews generally consider actions and behavior to be of primary importance; beliefs come out of actions. This conflicts with conservative Christians for whom belief is of primary importance and actions tend to be derivative from beliefs.
<b> * </b> Jewish belief does not accept the Christian concept of original sin (the belief that all people have inherited Adam and Eve's sin when they disobeyed G-d's instructions in the Garden of Eden).
<b> * </b> Judaism affirms the inherent goodness of the world and its people as creations of G-d.
<b> * </b> Believers are able to sanctify their lives and draw closer to G-d by performing fulfilling mitzvot (divine commandments).
<b> * </b> No savior is needed or is available as an intermediary with G-d.
<b> * </b> Some Jews view Jesus as a great moral teacher. Others see him as a false prophet or as an idol of Christianity.
<b> * </b> The Messiah (the anointed one of G-d) will arrive in the future and gather Jews once more into the land of Israel. There will be a general resurrection of the dead at that time. The Jerusalem Temple, destroyed in 70 CE, will be rebuilt.
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I think that just about covers it for the Judaism question.

Apos · February 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>As for this one, you are completely wrong. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

How so? Read the OT (specifcally Numbers), or talk to a rabbi. Sin sacrifices do not atone for all types of sin, and in Hosea, sin sacrfices are basically done away with, which is why Jews don't practice them today or consider them necessary. Solomon even foreshadows this. Long before Jesus, Jews had ALREADY been told that only the contrite and repentant prayer of the remorseful sinner can bring about a complete atonement. There was no call or purpose to some paganistic human sacrifice to make it work.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You have heard of passover? - That involved the rememberance of God passing over the houses which had lambs blood on the doors - the blood was necessary to appease the wrath of God.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

First of all, what sort of bizarre pagan god demands blood and "appeasement"? Sounds more like Cthulu! Second of all, the Torah never states that the Passover lamb atones for sin. In fact, the passover lamb has a completely different significance. Lambs were sacred in Egypt, and it was a high crime to kill a lamb. By slaughtering lambs and painting their doors with lambs' blood, the Jews were demonstrating to all that there was no going back: they had utterly rejected Egypt's pagan gods (by symbolically killing them). Only those Israelites who demonstrated that their fear of God was greater than their fear of the Egyptian's wrath would be spared. There's nothing to this story about foreshadowing the messiah or any reference to Jesus. That's just something that Christians tried to tack on later. There's nothing symbolically "innocent" about the Passover lamb: in fact it's a symbol of evil foriegn pagan gods!

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Im not sure where you got this from - but "universal acknowledgement of God" seems like a much watered down Judaism to me. Prove that statement to me.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

It's one of the key elements of the ACTUAL messianic age (which the messiah is supposed to bring).

Here are the ACTUAL things that are supposed to be signs of messianic age (to Jews the messiah isn't really important for WHO they are, just what he ushers in)

World Peace
And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. (Isaiah 2:4)
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together . . . and the sucking child shall play on the hole of the cobra . . . . (Isaiah 11:6-8)

Universal Knowledge of God
. . . for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea. (Isaiah 11:9)
No longer shall one teach his neighbor or shall one teach his brother, saying, “Know the Lord,” for they shall all know Me, from their smallest to their greatest,” says the Lord . . . . (Jeremiah 31:33)
And the Lord shall be king over all the earth. In that day shall there be one Lord, and His name one. (Zechariah 14:9)

Resurrection of the Dead
Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust, for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. (Isaiah 26:19)
And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Daniel 12:2)
Therefore, prophesy and say to them, “So says the Lord God, ‘Lo! I open your graves and cause you to come up out of your graves as My people, and bring you home to the land of Israel. Then you shall know that I am the Lord, when I open your graves and lead you up out of your graves as My people.’ “ (Ezekiel 37:12-13)

Ingathering of Israel
. . . I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather you from the west. I will say to the north, “Give up,” and to the south, “Keep not back, bring My sons from far, and My daughter from the ends of the earth.” (see also Jeremiah 16:15, 23:3; Isaiah 11:12; Zechariah 10:6; Ezekiel 37:21-22) (Isaiah 43:5-6)

Building of The Third Temple
. . . and I will set My Sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. My temple also shall be with them. Yes, I will be their God and they shall be My people. And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them forevermore. (See also Ezekiel 40-48; Isaiah 33:20) (Ezekiel 37:26-28)

The Gospel writers knew of these and tried to fudge some of them with outlandish interpretations (oh, see, JESUS is "the temple" oh and also a bunch of dead people came back to life with Jesus and wandered around for a bit even though that's not hardly sufficient and isn't recorded anywhere in history despite the fact that it would have been a pretty darn MAJOR event to have dead people walk around!) But obviously it's not easy to claim that there is universal peace or universal acknowledgement of god, so they instead just ignored those and talked about crazy virgin births and impossible heritages instead.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>I understand where you are coming from as an unbliever, but I'm not going to take the time to explain all the nuances of the Christian faith to you.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Whatever. You copped out of the evolution debate too.

SkulkBait · February 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pepe Muffassa @ Feb 17 2005, 08:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Good questions. Here is my 5 minute answer.

First of all, I assume that God is God - unchangeable from old to new testament. Then I look for similarities between Jesus and his forgiveness, and God.

The first place I look is Genesis - garden of Eden. Adam & Eve sin - and the first thing God does is curse humanity. The second thing God does is make a promise - he promises that he would overcome the devil.
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
...which he wouldn't have to do if he hadn't created the devil in the first place, which he did <i>knowing</i> that the devil would tempt humanity to sin. And he also created humans knowing they would be tempted. And also created the tree of knowledge to tempt them. hmm.... I don't know about you but to me it sounds like we're being setup.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
The rest of the old testament talks about Gods association with people - pre-christ. God is always forgiving Israel - If you forsake other gods and turn back, I will be merciful. He provides a sacrificial system so that the payment for our sin can fall on the animals back. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
'Cause yeah, thats not cruel at all, no sir.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>To that end, Jesus is the ultimate sacrifice - completely satisfying the wrath of God. If Jesus hadn't died, we would still be stuck sacrificing goats and lambs. Jesus forgiving us / saving us is only possible <b>because</b> he died.

So here is the main distinction between Old and New Testament. In the old, God said "If you want to be saved, you have to belive and sacrifice animals to cover your sin. By the way, here are some laws to live by."

In the New Testament God says "Christ has made the sacrifice - All I need now is belief. By the way, keep living by those laws (except the sacrificial / ritual law - not needed because of Christ)"</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Why would an all knowing. all powerfull God not simply sacrifice Jesus right away? Why wait 3000 years?

@Sky
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Now, back on topic: To answer the original question, Skulkbait, about if God is or isn't a ****, after all he's put us through. First of all, you have to answer the question, "Would I rather exist in a troubled life, or not exist at all." If you've never committed suicide, and I'm gonna assume that you haven't, you know the answer to that question.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
But its not a troubled life thats the problem, it is an entire eternity of suffering (in a pit of fire, no less) we are talking about here. Yeah, non-existance is probably better then that if you ask me, though I'd still take hell over serving a genocidal God any day.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Secondly, you have to answer the question, "Why should I care about God's past, present, or future? If the God I know just loves me if I love others, is that really so bad?"</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Well, personally, I don't give a rats **** whether or not God exists, I'm not going to change the way I live just because some deity tells me to.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Of course, that only works if you follow my way of thinking about my religion. The trappings of Christianity are more complex than that, needlessly so I think. Simplify your reasoning down to the way I look at it, and it is perfectly clear that we have a pretty damn good deal. wink-fix.gif</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I would say that this is only true if you ignore the fact that we sinned, according to the OT, <i>because</i> of God. If the God of the OT is real, then he is certainly an evil bastard.

Wheeee · February 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (WoTLanfear @ Feb 17 2005, 10:31 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> Oh no, not at all Pepe, I am enjoying this just as much as you. It really helps me pass the time at work when I can do uber google searches trying to back up what I am attempting to explain.

Ok.. if I am to understand correctly, I will admit it has been a few years since I've actually read the OT, so I probably don't remember everything exactly. I could have sworn that the Chronicles were a basic outline of the history of Israel and yet according to what I have read elsewhere (read non-christian sites, usually of a university and/or archelogical(sp) sites) they to affirm that the chronicles are a basic outline, but they have the time frame and exact details wrong.

Naturally no one actually expects to have every detail correct, especially when the OT was supposedly written, but if it were to be a historical text they would make it as accurate as possible and in some areas they are way off. I need to do some more reasearch on that particular topic though.

Soloman's temple... ok I did a bit of look up on it, and it appears it was an actual building, yet no one actually knows exactly what it looks like considering it was destoryed during yet another invasion and take over.

I am going to go out on a limb here and say what people think is solomon's temple is not, simply because that area is so prone to excessive violence and what not. In addition all of the sites I have read are using the bible to find its location, which is not a historical book. I haven't found a site (read reputable) that doesn't use the bible to say it found the location. I'm sorry but using a book of morals to find a historical location of some temple isn't exactly a good principle when it comes to uncovering the past.

I shall demostrate this by using the Book of the Dead as an example. No one is looking for the "Hall of Maati" because a book of legends and morals told them it exists, and it does list a location and semi-measurements, although they didn't use spans, feet, meters for those measurements. It was more of a how many people could fit in the hall at one time type of measurement. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Speculation. The OT is written in many parts as factual history. Unless you can prove that authors of that time were actually writing fictional accounts as fact (which really doesn't fit the evidence, I might add), your thesis is way off-base. And one other thing, could you provide links to these sites which claim that the dates and locations and stuff of the Bible are ... wrong? Seeing as the OT is pretty much one of the only reliable, well-documented accounts we have of that time period...

You also assume that the OT was intended as a book of morals. That's completely baseless. That's like saying the New York Times is about business. Of course not! There's a business section, yes, but there's also sports, world news, weather, classifieds, etc etc etc. To claim that the OT was merely a book of morals is... o_O

As for the book of the dead, i'm not familiar with it, but does it claim that the Hall of Maati factually exists?

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>First of all, what sort of bizarre pagan god demands blood and "appeasement"? Sounds more like Cthulu! Second of all, the Torah never states that the Passover lamb atones for sin. In fact, the passover lamb has a completely different significance. Lambs were sacred in Egypt, and it was a high crime to kill a lamb. By slaughtering lambs and painting their doors with lambs' blood, the Jews were demonstrating to all that there was no going back: they had utterly rejected Egypt's pagan gods (by symbolically killing them). Only those Israelites who demonstrated that their fear of God was greater than their fear of the Egyptian's wrath would be spared. There's nothing to this story about foreshadowing the messiah or any reference to Jesus. That's just something that Christians tried to tack on later. There's nothing symbolically "innocent" about the Passover lamb: in fact it's a symbol of evil foriegn pagan gods!
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

...It does say in the old testament that blood is required for atonement - Leviticus 17:11. What is so bizarre about that? God's justice demands one person's life for the sin that he commits, and the sacrifice is the substitute that God allows in order to save the man's life. Fairly non-jerkish, I would say - allowing us to make up for our mistakes without immediately dying.

Also, while it may be true that killing lambs symbolized the Israelites' rejection of the Egyptian gods, it was also meant as a symbol of God's covenant with Abraham/Israel. That is not inconsistent with Jesus's atonement.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why would an all knowing. all powerfull God not simply sacrifice Jesus right away? Why wait 3000 years?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Skulkbait, why are you still ranting about God causing us to sin? Free will is there for a reason. In fact, it's the same reason that lets you continue your defiance, as you have said you would. I can think of several reasons. I've already proven to you that God doesn't cause evil. Sure, God created Satan, but Satan chose to sin on his own. Just because God knows what Satan will do doesn't mean he's responsible for it. In fact, saying He knows what we *will* do is a logically meaningless statement, because God is not bound by time.

here is another take on what I've been saying all this time - </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"To say "God knows what I WILL do" is false. Since God is not bound by the dimension of time (that is, the sequential movement from one event to the next), it is more proper to say that "God knows what I do." In the sight of God, all is happening at once, every moment of time is at present for Him. However, that every moment of time is at present for Him (ie, experienced wholistically rather than sequentially) does not mean in any way that God has influenced, or scripted any of those moments. Those moments of time were no scripted by Him, but rather us. It is our choices that determine what those time-segment events will be. God simply knows them in the Eternal Now. It is a false way of thinking to see God as an oracle who sees future events as though He is not experiencing them immediately."
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>(taken from <a href='http://www.sciforums.com/archive/index.php/t-40096' target='_blank'>this</a>)

A better question for you to ask would be, "why did He create anything at all?"

SkulkBait · February 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Wheeee @ Feb 17 2005, 08:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Why would an all knowing. all powerfull God not simply sacrifice Jesus right away? Why wait 3000 years?</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Skulkbait, why are you still ranting about God causing us to sin? </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Because no one has answered my questions about why an all knowing God would do the things hes done. As I said before, we seemed to have been set up to fail.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Free will is there for a reason. In fact, it's the same reason that lets you continue your defiance, as you have said you would. I can think of several reasons. I've already proven to you that God doesn't cause evil. Sure, God created Satan, but Satan chose to sin on his own. Just because God knows what Satan will do doesn't mean he's responsible for it. In fact, saying He knows what we *will* do is a logically meaningless statement, because God is not bound by time.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
*sigh*. You've only proven that for one definition of "good", a definition I don't accept in this case. And yes, God is responsible for Satan, just as he is responsible for our fall, just as he is responsible for anyone's going to hell, because he created us knowing that thats where we would end up. Aparently God has decided that horrible suffering is preferable to non-existance. I think he just likes to watch us suffer, which is why he set us up for the fall.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>here is another take on what I've been saying all this time - </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>"To say "God knows what I WILL do" is false. Since God is not bound by the dimension of time (that is, the sequential movement from one event to the next), it is more proper to say that "God knows what I do." In the sight of God, all is happening at once, every moment of time is at present for Him. However, that every moment of time is at present for Him (ie, experienced wholistically rather than sequentially) does not mean in any way that God has influenced, or scripted any of those moments. Those moments of time were no scripted by Him, but rather us. It is our choices that determine what those time-segment events will be. God simply knows them in the Eternal Now. It is a false way of thinking to see God as an oracle who sees future events as though He is not experiencing them immediately."
</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>(taken from <a href='http://www.sciforums.com/archive/index.php/t-40096' target='_blank'>this</a>)

A better question for you to ask would be, "why did He create anything at all?"</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Good question. I mean, hes perfect already right? So what purpose could he possibly have served by creating the universe and everything in it?

And with that whole quoted blurb, you're just playing with semantics really. I mean, God is not only outside of time, he is outside of our universe entirely. That means that the term "existance" doesn't even apply (at least not the same way), so would it be proper for me to say that God doesn't exist? In the context that this universe can explain it, yes. As for outside this universe, who the **** knows?

Also, if God is not sequential, then why did he take 3000 years to decide that jesus would be the ultimate and final sacrifice? Why did the rules change? Change, by difinition, requires time. So how is it that God can be outside of time and still change the nature of his relationship with us?

Hell, all your definitions break down when you take that route. How could God have created us when "creation" is the change from non-existance to existance (again, change requiring time by definition). And if, in that sense, we always existed, then WTH did God do? Oh wait, doing requires a state of not-doing to precede it, and without time we wouldn't have that sequential order of events. Hell we wouldn't have events. See where I'm going? When you make that sort of claim, you may as well be saying "Gee, I really don't have any flipping clue man".

Cyndane · February 2005

@Wheee: Ok.. I am not 100% where you want me to begin but the OT is the book of moral values. Considering 99% of it is copied from other religions. As for the proof for it, well for one we have, <a href='http://www.religioustolerance.org' target='_blank'>Religious tolerance</a>, for another we have <a href='http://www.hindunet.org' target='_blank'>Hinduism Site</a> , <a href='http://muslim-canada.org/' target='_blank'>Islam/Christianity compared</a>.

That is how I know the bible is a book of morals, ever story ever written in it has been copied from some other religion. ALL of the stories have been copied. Prove to me that the bible was around before 7000 BC and I'll accept all other moral values are based in the bible.

Opps, there is one problem, the bible even at its origin, (read dead sea scrolls) only dates back to around 1500 BC... which is proven with basic carbon dating techinques.

I am afraid I have plenty to back up my claims, yet you have nothing to back up yours. Hate to be so blunt about it too.

I would also like to comment through this entire discussiong I have given links to assist you with where I was recieving my information and you are welcome to visit those as well, they almost all .org sites and thus usally a very trusthworthy site and they do attempt to prevent any biased position on anything. The only one I have seen back up anything they say with research that we can all look at is Pepe, and kudos to him for that.

Your move Wheeee.

Apos · February 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>...It does say in the old testament that blood is required for atonement - Leviticus 17:11. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Oft quoted, little understood. There are three methods of atonement outlined in the Torah (outlined in Numbers 15:27-31, and MODIFIED in Hosea and by the pronouncements of Solomon). Christians simply only read what they want to hear.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>What is so bizarre about that? God's justice demands one person's life for the sin that he commits, and the sacrifice is the substitute that God allows in order to save the man's life.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Let's see: what's bizarre?

The idea that someone should be killed because they mensturate (which is clearly defined as sin). The idea of demanding a price, then litterally committing suicide, then declaring that you feel better about it and thus won't be asking the price after all (well, why not skip a step and simply stop asking the price that no one can pay anyway, as you've always known?) The idea that you can punish someone or something else to make yourself feel better or to pay a debt that a third party owes (probably one of the most morally abhorrent ideas ever imagined). Ezekiel even spends the 18th chapter outlining exactly why a righteous person cannot die vicariously for the sins of the wicked (the idea is thoroughly pagan, not Jewish: it is the idea of people who throw virgins into volcanoes to appease volcano gods) and in verses 20-23 the prophet declares that repentance alone provides full forgiveness of sin: nowhere does he mention that any sort of blood sacrifice plays any part.

THAT stuff is bizarre.

AvengerX · February 2005

If you don't like the old testiment god (even tho he's allways been the same god) then just don't bother with him. and don't worry bout something that doesn't exist. and let the rightous get on with their good lives

SkulkBait · February 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 17 2005, 11:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> If you don't like the old testiment god (even tho he's allways been the same god) then just don't bother with him. and don't worry bout something that doesn't exist. and let the rightous get on with their good lives </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Tell you what. On the day the Christians stop trying to push their religion on me (pushing for "intelegent design" to be taught in schools, referencing the bible in futile attempts to win arguments, amending the constitution to discriminate against homosexuals, ect) then I will stop pointing out the flaws with their ideals and keep my religion to myself too. On that day I will let them believe whatever psycho nonsense they want to believe, despite all the evidence to the contrary. On that day, when I can turn on AM radio and not hear some evangelist thumpin' his bible and proclaiming that something is wrong because he read it in a book, I will shut up. On that day, when they stop murdering abortion doctors and protesting aids marches with their ignorant-as-all-**** "aids cures f*gs" signs, I will be happy. Something tells me that day will never come.

AvengerX · February 2005

alright, I'll adress most your issues

1- there are more reasons to not support homosexuality then just religion. besides being morally wrong. its also unhealthy. it just spreads deise (not that normal sex doesn't) but you can't even procreate with it. so whats the point? Darwin wouldn't support homosexuality cuz it stops one from passing on thier genes... and that would be agaisnt the point of being alive as far as his "survival of the fitest " goes

2- I don't know about you but the crusades are over buddy. how many christens have killed you becasue your a heteric? you say they " thrust" their beliefs on you. how so? do christians put a gun to your head and say "Worhsip jesus or DIE!" , that hasn't happened to me

3- every religion has radicalists, not just christians , theres crazy muslams and hindu's , heck, I'm sure theres even a few crazed budisht monks that have gone off the deep end. and because of the tiny tiny minority, your going to write off all religion as impossible to be true

moultano · February 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Feb 17 2005, 11:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 17 2005, 11:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> If you don't like the old testiment god (even tho he's allways been the same god) then just don't bother with him. and don't worry bout something that doesn't exist. and let the rightous get on with their good lives </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Tell you what. On the day the Christians stop trying to push their religion on me (pushing for "intelegent design" to be taught in schools, referencing the bible in futile attempts to win arguments, amending the constitution to discriminate against homosexuals, ect) then I will stop pointing out the flaws with their ideals and keep my religion to myself too. On that day I will let them believe whatever psycho nonsense they want to believe, despite all the evidence to the contrary. On that day, when I can turn on AM radio and not hear some evangelist thumpin' his bible and proclaiming that something is wrong because he read it in a book, I will shut up. On that day, when they stop murdering abortion doctors and protesting aids marches with their ignorant-as-all-**** "aids cures f*gs" signs, I will be happy. Something tells me that day will never come.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
Man, watch out for that ulcer. I hope you've got a steady supply of tums in your diet!
<img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' />

moultano · February 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>1- there are more reasons to not support homosexuality then just religion. besides being morally wrong. its also unhealthy. it just spreads deise (not that normal sex doesn't) but you can't even procreate with it. so whats the point? Darwin wouldn't support homosexuality cuz it stops one from passing on thier genes... and that would be agaisnt the point of being alive as far as his "survival of the fitest " goes</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Don't open this can. I don't care who started it.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>2- I don't know about you but the crusades are over buddy. how many christens have killed you becasue your a heteric? you say they " thrust" their beliefs on you. how so? do christians put a gun to your head and say "Worhsip jesus or DIE!" , that hasn't happened to me</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

Christianity has a long history of evangelism. I haven't had much difficulty with this, and so long as you aren't trying to walk into planned parenthood, its usually fine. But the idea that Christianity can be left alone as an ideology is disingenuous. Spreading Christianity is inherent to the idea of Christianity, and so necessitates resistance to it.
Personally, I don't think Hinduism has much to say for itself either, but I don't need to resist it, because there aren't any hindus I know who want to convert me.

Edit: just to clarify, there isn't anything wrong with evangelism necessarily, but the two phenomena go hand in hand.

Sky · February 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Feb 17 2005, 04:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> @Sky
</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Now, back on topic: To answer the original question, Skulkbait, about if God is or isn't a ****, after all he's put us through. First of all, you have to answer the question, "Would I rather exist in a troubled life, or not exist at all." If you've never committed suicide, and I'm gonna assume that you haven't, you know the answer to that question.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
But its not a troubled life thats the problem, it is an entire eternity of suffering (in a pit of fire, no less) we are talking about here. Yeah, non-existance is probably better then that if you ask me, though I'd still take hell over serving a genocidal God any day.

</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
"Serving"? I'm still confused why you find that idea so revolting. I "serve" God by helping the poor, doing volunteer work, in general being a nice guy; I don't offer sacrifices of my best crops or crawl 30 miles on my stomach to Mass every Sunday. In short, I do little to no more as a Christian than a good human being would do as an atheist, but yet I believe I deserve a place in Heaven because I do what I do in the name of not just humanity, but God as well. If you think about it, I think it's worth "hedging your bets" so to speak to at least try to live how I want to live; you get to live like you would anyways, but you can at least attempt to assure yourself that in case of an afterlife you have a fighting chance of being on the right side. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /> Right now, I don't fear Hell. Check back with me if I fear Hell after I've done something really bad, like killed someone. I'd probably start to get a little worried then.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Secondly, you have to answer the question, "Why should I care about God's past, present, or future? If the God I know just loves me if I love others, is that really so bad?"</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Well, personally, I don't give a rats **** whether or not God exists, I'm not going to change the way I live just because some deity tells me to. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Like I said, if you're a decent person you don't really have to change your lifestyle. About the only thing that I know I have to do that I wouldn't if I were an atheist is I go to Church during Lent, Easter, and Christmas like clockwork. The rest of the time, I go when I want. It's not exactly torture you know, hardly something to hate a religion over, and even less of a reason to infer that we're all whipped slaves of God.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Of course, that only works if you follow my way of thinking about my religion. The trappings of Christianity are more complex than that, needlessly so I think. Simplify your reasoning down to the way I look at it, and it is perfectly clear that we have a pretty damn good deal. wink-fix.gif</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I would say that this is only true if you ignore the fact that we sinned, according to the OT, <i>because</i> of God. If the God of the OT is real, then he is certainly an evil bastard.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I'm glad God made sin. The world would be a boring boring place without two sides to every coin. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' />

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>2- I don't know about you but the crusades are over buddy. how many christens have killed you becasue your a heteric? you say they " thrust" their beliefs on you. how so? do christians put a gun to your head and say "Worhsip jesus or DIE!" , that hasn't happened to me</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=87023' target='_blank'>*cough*</a>

AvengerX · February 2005

Some religions are a little more demanding, like the LDS faith, members give 10% of their income to the church, they attend 3 hour church blocks every sunday, every member thats 18 and above has a calling in their ward or Branch. fast once a month, pay fast offerings, obstain from Coffee , Liquor, Drugs, Pre-maritail sex. and the Boys serve a 2 year mission from age 19-21. so not every church is just a social club.

Sky · February 2005

I've never been solicited by this members of this LDS faith. For the record, I don't know what religion you're talking about. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /> Is it Latter Day Saints?

Legionnaired · February 2005

Ezekiel 18 adresses specific concerns and beliefs held by jews during the Babylonian captivity, circa 600 B.C, that the punishment for being removed from their promised land was as a result of their father's actions, and that they were not morally culpable for the plight they suffered. Coupled with the fact that there was no discussion of blood sacrifices and their superfluos nature until later in the book, it's safely assumed that Ezekiel is still talking about the Israelites-in-exile's personal beliefs that they weren't at fault for the exile, not about issues of personal sin and salvation. You take a statement for one thing and extrapolate it to places where it simply was never meant to be taken.

Funny that you accuse Christians of the same thing.

Nice <a href='http://www.outreachjudaism.org/jesusdeath.html' target='_blank'>borrowed arguement,</a> though.

Apos · February 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>You take a statement for one thing and extrapolate it to places where it simply was never meant to be taken.</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>

I would think that Jewish scholars and rabbis who have studied the Torah longer than Christianity has even existed would have a better persepective on what their holy text means than people who apparently couldn't even read it in the original language and hence confused obvious things like "virgin" and "young woman."

For Jews, the words of the prophets are lessons for all of history, not simply a given situation.

SkulkBait · February 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 18 2005, 12:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> alright, I'll adress most your issues

1- there are more reasons to not support homosexuality then just religion. besides being morally wrong. its also unhealthy. it just spreads deise (not that normal sex doesn't) but you can't even procreate with it. so whats the point? Darwin wouldn't support homosexuality cuz it stops one from passing on thier genes... and that would be agaisnt the point of being alive as far as his "survival of the fitest " goes </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
I would argue about this here, but you started the equivelent "Flame me I'm an idiot" thread elsewhere, so I'll just do it there.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
2- I don't know about you but the crusades are over buddy. how many christens have killed you becasue your a heteric? you say they " thrust" their beliefs on you. how so? do christians put a gun to your head and say "Worhsip jesus or DIE!" , that hasn't happened to me</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
No, but they do act like jackasses and say things like "Homosexuality is morally wrong!" and then back it up by saying "My God says so, and my God is right! And you're stupid for not believing in him!". Oh and they try and push their religous psycho agenda into law and tell people how they should live there lives, and then theres the **** who go door to door... And in otehr countries its much worse, christians physically threaten thers to convert (see link posted by Sky). So yeah I think that christians are pussing their religion on me.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
3- every religion has radicalists, not just christians , theres crazy muslams and hindu's , heck, I'm sure theres even a few crazed budisht monks that have gone off the deep end. and because of the tiny tiny minority, your going to write off all religion as impossible to be true</td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Unfortunatly it is about the most vocal "minority" on earth. And I have to put up with them everyday, and I'm getting flipping sick of it.

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"Serving"? I'm still confused why you find that idea so revolting. I "serve" God by helping the poor, doing volunteer work, in general being a nice guy; I don't offer sacrifices of my best crops or crawl 30 miles on my stomach to Mass every Sunday. In short, I do little to no more as a Christian than a good human being would do as an atheist, but yet I believe I deserve a place in Heaven because I do what I do in the name of not just humanity, but God as well. If you think about it, I think it's worth "hedging your bets" so to speak to at least try to live how I want to live; you get to live like you would anyways, but you can at least attempt to assure yourself that in case of an afterlife you have a fighting chance of being on the right side. tounge.gif Right now, I don't fear Hell. Check back with me if I fear Hell after I've done something really bad, like killed someone. I'd probably start to get a little worried then.
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Does it matter? I would never act in the name of a God who has commited genocide, in this life or the next. As for being on the right side, I think I am <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /> As for hell, I'm not afraid, I've already accepted that if the christians are right (big if) I'll be going to hell. Besides, all the cool people are there already.

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>Like I said, if you're a decent person you don't really have to change your lifestyle. About the only thing that I know I have to do that I wouldn't if I were an atheist is I go to Church during Lent, Easter, and Christmas like clockwork. The rest of the time, I go when I want. It's not exactly torture you know, hardly something to hate a religion over, and even less of a reason to infer that we're all whipped slaves of God. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Theres one thing I won't change that is very important. I will not ask a genocidal God for forgiveness.

Snidely · February 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Feb 18 2005, 12:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> If you think about it, I think it's worth "hedging your bets" so to speak to at least try to live how I want to live; you get to live like you would anyways, but you can at least attempt to assure yourself that in case of an afterlife you have a fighting chance of being on the right side. <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /> Right now, I don't fear Hell. Check back with me if I fear Hell after I've done something really bad, like killed someone. I'd probably start to get a little worried then. </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
If you don't believe in God, though, you don't get to go to heaven, regardless of your nature. There's no point in trying to hedge bets.

Edit: didn't like last bit.

Pepe_Muffassa · February 2005

</div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SkulkBait @ Feb 17 2005, 11:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> </div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (AvengerX @ Feb 17 2005, 11:47 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> If you don't like the old testiment god (even tho he's allways been the same god) then just don't bother with him. and don't worry bout something that doesn't exist. and let the rightous get on with their good lives </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'>
Tell you what. On the day the Christians stop trying to push their religion on me (pushing for "intelegent design" to be taught in schools, referencing the bible in futile attempts to win arguments, amending the constitution to discriminate against homosexuals, ect) then I will stop pointing out the flaws with their ideals and keep my religion to myself too. On that day I will let them believe whatever psycho nonsense they want to believe, despite all the evidence to the contrary. On that day, when I can turn on AM radio and not hear some evangelist thumpin' his bible and proclaiming that something is wrong because he read it in a book, I will shut up. On that day, when they stop murdering abortion doctors and protesting aids marches with their ignorant-as-all-**** "aids cures f*gs" signs, I will be happy. Something tells me that day will never come.  </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> 
I sure hope not - our our founding fathers would turn over in their graves.

(this is not an argument that they were christians - it is an argument that such a day would mark a loss of freedom of speach, and a loss of freedom of religion - both of which skulkbait seems to advocate.)

Was The God Of The Old Testament "bad"?

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