<!--QuoteBegin-Tempo+Jan 31 2005, 11:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Tempo @ Jan 31 2005, 11:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The game yesterday was hardly an indication of whether or not ns has side bias. If Pain User hadn't thrown his 50 res away so early and Exigent held two fades their 2nd hive probably would of survived and from there they probably would of one. Alas one fade couldn't hold it, the hive went down and terror eventually won. Exigent did some nice 4/5 skulk ambushes but a lot of the time skulks were going in 1 v 1 for no real reason which isn't really what skulks should do early game.
I think marines are slightly stronger than aliens early game but other than that it falls down to map balance. The new changes in beta 6 give skulks a bit more chance but good marines will still dominate early because it takes time to get chambers up. The upgrades are not instant, you still need to drop 3 chambers, your rts and still get your hive/fades up in good time. 80% of games still hinge on the battle for the 2nd hive and thats not going to change greatly in the new beta. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Its funny how hindsight is always 20/20...
Kinda like u always think of th PERFECT comeback.... 20 seconds after the guy who insulted you walks away laughing
<!--QuoteBegin-2 of Eight+Feb 1 2005, 03:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (2 of Eight @ Feb 1 2005, 03:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>If Aliens work as a team, they <u>will</u> win. If Aliens don't work as a team, they <u>might</u> win. If Marines work as a team, they <u>might</u> win. If Marines don't work as a team, they <u>will</u> lose.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> IMO... it's exactly the opposite: Aliens need to ambush/rush when they FAR outnumber the marines to stand a chance. This requires amazing teamwork. Even with Fades out, your Fades aren't going to be attacking lone HMGs are they? They need support. Marines can rambo to the hive solo and cause a huge distraction. Even a single marine can kill 2-3 skulks easily if they don't ambush right. Pretty much the only 'teamwork' you need in the first 5 minutes of the game is for the comm to upgrade Armor1 and all the marines rush nodes.
Skulks need to be 75/25 again, not 70/10. It makes them very easy targets to kill when its possible to take out at a max 5 and easily 3 with one LMG clip. Not to mention that a pistol can tear through them from a very safe distance. Its like fighting a grizzly bear with a butterknife. Better cloaking doesn't help to solve this.
<!--QuoteBegin-QwertyMcDunkin+Feb 1 2005, 07:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (QwertyMcDunkin @ Feb 1 2005, 07:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Skulks need to be 75/25 again, not 70/10. It makes them very easy targets to kill when its possible to take out at a max 5 and easily 3 with one LMG clip. Not to mention that a pistol can tear through them from a very safe distance. Its like fighting a grizzly bear with a butterknife. Better cloaking doesn't help to solve this. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> mmm... 4 more lvl0 lmg bullets? thats quite a buff i'd say.
skulks need a buff, yes, but dont forget what their role is: scout, ambush etc. dont expect to rush a marine head on even with 2-3 skulks... 3 skulks all from different directions is another story though
one thing i agree with u is that cloaking certainly doesnt need buffing (from b5). i think sensories should remain the "unexpected" chamber that works with a skilled team in certain maps and situations
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Feb 1 2005, 07:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Feb 1 2005, 07:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->skulks should get 95 hp 0 armor... and a small speed boost to maybe 325-350 base groundspeed.
that and free upgrades and they might be good enough<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Considering the registry issues we have atm, I'd rather not have an increased speed :/
I've noticed that HMGs are really really good on pub games. Most fades just cant deal with them unless its just a solo marine. It seems they are the ultimate all-purpose weapon now.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Feb 1 2005, 06:59 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Feb 1 2005, 06:59 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> cara would still give +20 armor <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But if upgrades are free and skulks have more health and 20 armor and faster they would be unstoppable.
<!--QuoteBegin-UKchaos+Feb 1 2005, 05:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UKchaos @ Feb 1 2005, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've noticed that HMGs are really really good on pub games. Most fades just cant deal with them unless its just a solo marine. It seems they are the ultimate all-purpose weapon now. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd say tone HMGs down by giving them a wider radius, but let the GL get a bigger role by decreasing damage and perhaps shortening reload time. Give all weapons a niche, but the HMG excels at pretty much every area.
I also think that the amount of skill to play this game needs to be easier to understand so new or combat people won't be turned off by the hardcore gameplay.
In a perfect world, the learning curve of any game of skill would be endless. I say making the game easier to understand may be possible, but it shouldn't sacrifice the depth of gameplay to do it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Feb 1 2005, 05:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Feb 1 2005, 05:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-2 of Eight+Feb 1 2005, 03:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (2 of Eight @ Feb 1 2005, 03:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>If Aliens work as a team, they <u>will</u> win. If Aliens don't work as a team, they <u>might</u> win. If Marines work as a team, they <u>might</u> win. If Marines don't work as a team, they <u>will</u> lose.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> IMO... it's exactly the opposite: Aliens need to ambush/rush when they FAR outnumber the marines to stand a chance. This requires amazing teamwork. Even with Fades out, your Fades aren't going to be attacking lone HMGs are they? They need support. Marines can rambo to the hive solo and cause a huge distraction. Even a single marine can kill 2-3 skulks easily if they don't ambush right. Pretty much the only 'teamwork' you need in the first 5 minutes of the game is for the comm to upgrade Armor1 and all the marines rush nodes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe you are wrong...
As to your point about the fade.... Completely correct.... If the aliens ahd teamwork there would be a gorge nearby who would come heal, and umbra...
Never underestimate umbra... it totally pwns....
In a 12V12 Game (where statistically marines almost always win) They do not need teamwork to win, however, even marine teamwork cannot counter good alien teamwork....
Every map has chokepoints... if the aliens can hold the chokepoints they win....
Rambo's camp, if aliens spread out early, and make both o chambers AND resource nodes, designate someone for early hive, designate early fades, lerks, and who will drop the first chamber (if you wanna do a large game it HAS to be sensory, to stop the rambos that find a way through the map, with a 3-4 minute early hive (from R4K) you should ahve no problems as long as your fades are cautious for 3 minutes while the hive builds.....)
O chambers are a deterrent... and are NEEDED in large alien games, coupled with umbra, and a few smart skulks that do NOT rush down hallways at packs of 11 marines...... ive seen aliens win some good games....
I can tell in a game now within 30 seconds (easily) whether we are going to win...
Look at the map... if no chokepoints, res, are dropped, if the killboard lights up by idiot skulks, if no one says im earlk lerk, im hive, ive got res, im fade, ive got chambers... if no aliens COMMUNICATE... the game is over before it even starts....
I cant tell you how often i fade (im decent) go like 15-1 as fade (not always, but sometimes) and we lose miserably...
I can take that same 50 res, drop a 4 minute hive and watch us win (assuming it goes up (which is where chokepoitns come into play))
O chambers WILL DIE after the ~7-8 minute mark BUT if you hold your 4-6 nodes till then, while NOT NUBRUSHING, bite down marine nodes, and accumulate a few RFK, ull have plenty to fade, onos, lerk,
My biggest peeve is that marines haev strengths, aliens ahve strength
I mean look, the aliens have like 20 different "weapons" and nearly half of them are NON OFFENSIVE weapons, they freaking scream TEAMWORK... The aliens have the mobility, stealth capability, flipping CLOACKING capabilities, regeneration, everything needed to stay alive... and yet you will still rush them mindlessly rather than parasite, bait, talk to your teammates, and work out an AMBUSH...
That is the difference between a good alien team and a bad alien team....
Btw.. i comm and play marine quite frequently, so im approaching my argument with experience from both sides.....
Marines are Way overpowered, from 6v6 on up, unless aliens use thier skills, which are not the same as marine skills... people think regeneration makes them invulnerable... god dammit if you were to have a gorge with his spit, and healspray, you could get something better at hive 1.... USE teamwork, and haev a much bigger advantage...
Well.. thats about all i have....
Try to be alien commander sometime.... just be a permagorge and look at ur minimap all the time, with a team that freaking isnt nub... tell them you want to try and coordinate people, and just see how it goes... assign people things, and put an emphasis on keeping the higher lifeforms ALIVE above ALL ELSE (as in be cautious with lerks, fades) FLEE FIRST, GO BACK LATER, the res you save WILL mean the difference between winning and losing, regardless of whether you rack up a huge killcount
<!--QuoteBegin-SDJason+Feb 2 2005, 05:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SDJason @ Feb 2 2005, 05:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+Feb 1 2005, 05:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ Feb 1 2005, 05:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-2 of Eight+Feb 1 2005, 03:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (2 of Eight @ Feb 1 2005, 03:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <b>If Aliens work as a team, they <u>will</u> win. If Aliens don't work as a team, they <u>might</u> win. If Marines work as a team, they <u>might</u> win. If Marines don't work as a team, they <u>will</u> lose.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> IMO... it's exactly the opposite: Aliens need to ambush/rush when they FAR outnumber the marines to stand a chance. This requires amazing teamwork. Even with Fades out, your Fades aren't going to be attacking lone HMGs are they? They need support. Marines can rambo to the hive solo and cause a huge distraction. Even a single marine can kill 2-3 skulks easily if they don't ambush right. Pretty much the only 'teamwork' you need in the first 5 minutes of the game is for the comm to upgrade Armor1 and all the marines rush nodes. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I believe you are wrong...
As to your point about the fade.... Completely correct.... If the aliens ahd teamwork there would be a gorge nearby who would come heal, and umbra...
Never underestimate umbra... it totally pwns....
In a 12V12 Game (where statistically marines almost always win) They do not need teamwork to win, however, even marine teamwork cannot counter good alien teamwork....
Every map has chokepoints... if the aliens can hold the chokepoints they win....
Rambo's camp, if aliens spread out early, and make both o chambers AND resource nodes, designate someone for early hive, designate early fades, lerks, and who will drop the first chamber (if you wanna do a large game it HAS to be sensory, to stop the rambos that find a way through the map, with a 3-4 minute early hive (from R4K) you should ahve no problems as long as your fades are cautious for 3 minutes while the hive builds.....)
O chambers are a deterrent... and are NEEDED in large alien games, coupled with umbra, and a few smart skulks that do NOT rush down hallways at packs of 11 marines...... ive seen aliens win some good games....
I can tell in a game now within 30 seconds (easily) whether we are going to win...
Look at the map... if no chokepoints, res, are dropped, if the killboard lights up by idiot skulks, if no one says im earlk lerk, im hive, ive got res, im fade, ive got chambers... if no aliens COMMUNICATE... the game is over before it even starts....
I cant tell you how often i fade (im decent) go like 15-1 as fade (not always, but sometimes) and we lose miserably...
I can take that same 50 res, drop a 4 minute hive and watch us win (assuming it goes up (which is where chokepoitns come into play))
O chambers WILL DIE after the ~7-8 minute mark BUT if you hold your 4-6 nodes till then, while NOT NUBRUSHING, bite down marine nodes, and accumulate a few RFK, ull have plenty to fade, onos, lerk,
My biggest peeve is that marines haev strengths, aliens ahve strength
I mean look, the aliens have like 20 different "weapons" and nearly half of them are NON OFFENSIVE weapons, they freaking scream TEAMWORK... The aliens have the mobility, stealth capability, flipping CLOACKING capabilities, regeneration, everything needed to stay alive... and yet you will still rush them mindlessly rather than parasite, bait, talk to your teammates, and work out an AMBUSH...
That is the difference between a good alien team and a bad alien team....
Btw.. i comm and play marine quite frequently, so im approaching my argument with experience from both sides.....
Marines are Way overpowered, from 6v6 on up, unless aliens use thier skills, which are not the same as marine skills... people think regeneration makes them invulnerable... god dammit if you were to have a gorge with his spit, and healspray, you could get something better at hive 1.... USE teamwork, and haev a much bigger advantage...
Well.. thats about all i have....
Try to be alien commander sometime.... just be a permagorge and look at ur minimap all the time, with a team that freaking isnt nub... tell them you want to try and coordinate people, and just see how it goes... assign people things, and put an emphasis on keeping the higher lifeforms ALIVE above ALL ELSE (as in be cautious with lerks, fades) FLEE FIRST, GO BACK LATER, the res you save WILL mean the difference between winning and losing, regardless of whether you rack up a huge killcount
~Jason
~Jason <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You make a good point, but, I think you're wrong. NS defines what all other games should achieve when it comes to balance. It's perfect.
<!--QuoteBegin-SmoodCroozn+Feb 2 2005, 12:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SmoodCroozn @ Feb 2 2005, 12:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-UKchaos+Feb 1 2005, 05:32 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (UKchaos @ Feb 1 2005, 05:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've noticed that HMGs are really really good on pub games. Most fades just cant deal with them unless its just a solo marine. It seems they are the ultimate all-purpose weapon now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'd say tone HMGs down by giving them a wider radius, but let the GL get a bigger role by decreasing damage and perhaps shortening reload time. Give all weapons a niche, but the HMG excels at pretty much every area.
I also think that the amount of skill to play this game needs to be easier to understand so new or combat people won't be turned off by the hardcore gameplay. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Giving the HMG a larger spread would only make it easier to hit with it... is it is two ambushing skulks might get the HMGer if he panics, with a larger spray all he'd have to do is wave around wildly with his crosshair and get them in no time...
2.0 was not a skill matter, much as you think it might be. Sure, a tard fade versus a person with a brain is always going to result in an easy kill for the rine, but thats how all the builds go.
No, in 2.0 redemption was a fantastic way to annoy the hell out of marines as any lifeform, various little building bugs allowed gorges to do crazy things to any undefended IP, etc. Current version slants things back towards marines. Not by a huge amount, but enough to keep things manageable. This is, of course, my personal opinion on NS Classic, and therefore does not translate to CO.
Furthermore, try editing your posts, otherwise you're just going for postcount ++.
Because everytime you post, your e-**** gets bigger. Didn't you get the memo.
Unfortuantely I must break the irony of leaving my post as spam <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Giving the HMG a larger spread would only make it easier to hit with it... is it is two ambushing skulks might get the HMGer if he panics, with a larger spray all he'd have to do is wave around wildly with his crosshair and get them in no time... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you count on balancing the hmg, or any gun, by how many bullets a marine theoretically might <i>miss</i>, which the random spread would then turn into <i>hits</i>, the result will be no one killing much of anything. Killing a skulk by spraying bullets should never be encouraged over killing a skulk with precise aim.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Feb 1 2005, 12:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Feb 1 2005, 12:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You do realize scs counter mt, not the reverse? <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Scan, armor, and welders are how you kill sc first. <!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2.0 was insane slanted towards aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No. You just don't know what you're talking about.... 2.01 was the most balanced build BY FAR. It was almost 50/50 at the end with marines having a slight 55/45 advantadge maybe. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ... <!--QuoteBegin-Nem0+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nem0)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, there was quite a while in 2.0 where the aliens were significantly stronger.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Nadagast was talking about 2.01, zero was talking about 2.0
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+Feb 2 2005, 08:41 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ Feb 2 2005, 08:41 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Because everytime you post, your e-**** gets bigger. Didn't you get the memo.
Unfortuantely I must break the irony of leaving my post as spam <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Giving the HMG a larger spread would only make it easier to hit with it... is it is two ambushing skulks might get the HMGer if he panics, with a larger spray all he'd have to do is wave around wildly with his crosshair and get them in no time... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you count on balancing the hmg, or any gun, by how many bullets a marine theoretically might <i>miss</i>, which the random spread would then turn into <i>hits</i>, the result will be no one killing much of anything. Killing a skulk by spraying bullets should never be encouraged over killing a skulk with precise aim. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So you agree with me then? Great <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
About cloaking... Can't the commanders just learn to scan more? That will make cloaking almost useless. No energy you say? Then build not just one observatory, but two or why not three, maybe four... (Motion tracking will of course also help a lot.)
By the way. I bet cloaking promotes teamplay, because the Rambo's will get killed a lot by camping skulks, while the marines moving around in groups can see their enemies because the commanders uses scanner sweep frequently. If not, eject comm.
Now when we all agree that cloaking sucks, make focus better. It should increase damage, yes - but slow the rate of fire, no. An upgrade shouldn't make anything worse. It isn't like regeneration upgrade decreases maximum health or celerity upgrade makes the aliens regain energy slower or anything like that. Therefor focus shouldn't slow first attack either.
Better focus would unbalance combat you say? Well, who cares. Seriously. The combat players? They don't count.
Early res towers help aliens a lot, but they need to be protected, which is not easy for an alien that's meant for ambushing. Even ambushing is difficult if marines travel in packs or have a good idea of where you are. Early marine control of a map is too great, provided the marines can aim. I think OCs or lerks need more stopping power to slow down marine expansion. Maps are also another factor, in which bright maps give marines an advantage. Marines only really need sight and aim, while aliens need to rely on tactics, which is a harder game.
I think the period before the fades give marines too much of an advantage, even by watching the exi terror games. I think more power (not just damage, but other means) should be poured into the intial weapons of the aliens such as OCs, Lerks, and gorge, rather than just relying on a fade. In response, nerf the fade a bit because they would not be as needed.
<!--QuoteBegin-Namron+Feb 3 2005, 10:13 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Namron @ Feb 3 2005, 10:13 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> About cloaking... Can't the commanders just learn to scan more? That will make cloaking almost useless. No energy you say? Then build not just one observatory, but two or why not three, maybe four... (Motion tracking will of course also help a lot.)
By the way. I bet cloaking promotes teamplay, because the Rambo's will get killed a lot by camping skulks, while the marines moving around in groups can see their enemies because the commanders uses scanner sweep frequently. If not, eject comm.
Now when we all agree that cloaking sucks, make focus better. It should increase damage, yes - but slow the rate of fire, no. An upgrade shouldn't make anything worse. It isn't like regeneration upgrade decreases maximum health or celerity upgrade makes the aliens regain energy slower or anything like that. Therefor focus shouldn't slow first attack either.
Better focus would unbalance combat you say? Well, who cares. Seriously. The combat players? They don't count. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats how focus worked at first, but they had to tweak it since it was overpowered as crazy.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+Feb 3 2005, 01:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ Feb 3 2005, 01:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [Sarcasm]Oh yes, boosting skulk's speed would be a fantastic idea. That wouldn't exacerbate netcode/latency issues at all.[/Sarcasm] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> From my experience speed doesn't matter ALL that much, rates do. I think that the standard rates should be set VERY high, and then make 56kers edit them instead of the other way around. I dont know how many times Ive been killed by some nub who runs down a long hallway, but my bullets wont hit cause I use too low interp.
Increasing the skulk's speed would be a great thing, IMO. (only slight, though).
Comments
I think marines are slightly stronger than aliens early game but other than that it falls down to map balance. The new changes in beta 6 give skulks a bit more chance but good marines will still dominate early because it takes time to get chambers up. The upgrades are not instant, you still need to drop 3 chambers, your rts and still get your hive/fades up in good time. 80% of games still hinge on the battle for the 2nd hive and thats not going to change greatly in the new beta. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Its funny how hindsight is always 20/20...
Kinda like u always think of th PERFECT comeback.... 20 seconds after the guy who insulted you walks away laughing
If Marines work as a team, they <u>might</u> win. If Marines don't work as a team, they <u>will</u> lose.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMO... it's exactly the opposite:
Aliens need to ambush/rush when they FAR outnumber the marines to stand a chance. This requires amazing teamwork. Even with Fades out, your Fades aren't going to be attacking lone HMGs are they? They need support.
Marines can rambo to the hive solo and cause a huge distraction. Even a single marine can kill 2-3 skulks easily if they don't ambush right. Pretty much the only 'teamwork' you need in the first 5 minutes of the game is for the comm to upgrade Armor1 and all the marines rush nodes.
mmm... 4 more lvl0 lmg bullets? thats quite a buff i'd say.
skulks need a buff, yes, but dont forget what their role is: scout, ambush etc. dont expect to rush a marine head on even with 2-3 skulks... 3 skulks all from different directions is another story though
one thing i agree with u is that cloaking certainly doesnt need buffing (from b5). i think sensories should remain the "unexpected" chamber that works with a skilled team in certain maps and situations
that and free upgrades and they might be good enough
that and free upgrades and they might be good enough<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering the registry issues we have atm, I'd rather not have an increased speed :/
But if upgrades are free and skulks have more health and 20 armor and faster they would be unstoppable.
I'd say tone HMGs down by giving them a wider radius, but let the GL get a bigger role by decreasing damage and perhaps shortening reload time. Give all weapons a niche, but the HMG excels at pretty much every area.
I also think that the amount of skill to play this game needs to be easier to understand so new or combat people won't be turned off by the hardcore gameplay.
If Marines work as a team, they <u>might</u> win. If Marines don't work as a team, they <u>will</u> lose.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMO... it's exactly the opposite:
Aliens need to ambush/rush when they FAR outnumber the marines to stand a chance. This requires amazing teamwork. Even with Fades out, your Fades aren't going to be attacking lone HMGs are they? They need support.
Marines can rambo to the hive solo and cause a huge distraction. Even a single marine can kill 2-3 skulks easily if they don't ambush right. Pretty much the only 'teamwork' you need in the first 5 minutes of the game is for the comm to upgrade Armor1 and all the marines rush nodes. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe you are wrong...
As to your point about the fade.... Completely correct.... If the aliens ahd teamwork there would be a gorge nearby who would come heal, and umbra...
Never underestimate umbra... it totally pwns....
In a 12V12 Game (where statistically marines almost always win) They do not need teamwork to win, however, even marine teamwork cannot counter good alien teamwork....
Every map has chokepoints... if the aliens can hold the chokepoints they win....
Rambo's camp, if aliens spread out early, and make both o chambers AND resource nodes, designate someone for early hive, designate early fades, lerks, and who will drop the first chamber (if you wanna do a large game it HAS to be sensory, to stop the rambos that find a way through the map, with a 3-4 minute early hive (from R4K) you should ahve no problems as long as your fades are cautious for 3 minutes while the hive builds.....)
O chambers are a deterrent... and are NEEDED in large alien games, coupled with umbra, and a few smart skulks that do NOT rush down hallways at packs of 11 marines...... ive seen aliens win some good games....
I can tell in a game now within 30 seconds (easily) whether we are going to win...
Look at the map... if no chokepoints, res, are dropped, if the killboard lights up by idiot skulks, if no one says im earlk lerk, im hive, ive got res, im fade, ive got chambers... if no aliens COMMUNICATE... the game is over before it even starts....
I cant tell you how often i fade (im decent) go like 15-1 as fade (not always, but sometimes) and we lose miserably...
I can take that same 50 res, drop a 4 minute hive and watch us win (assuming it goes up (which is where chokepoitns come into play))
O chambers WILL DIE after the ~7-8 minute mark
BUT if you hold your 4-6 nodes till then, while NOT NUBRUSHING, bite down marine nodes, and accumulate a few RFK, ull have plenty to fade, onos, lerk,
My biggest peeve is that marines haev strengths, aliens ahve strength
I mean look, the aliens have like 20 different "weapons" and nearly half of them are NON OFFENSIVE weapons, they freaking scream TEAMWORK... The aliens have the mobility, stealth capability, flipping CLOACKING capabilities, regeneration, everything needed to stay alive... and yet you will still rush them mindlessly rather than parasite, bait, talk to your teammates, and work out an AMBUSH...
That is the difference between a good alien team and a bad alien team....
Btw.. i comm and play marine quite frequently, so im approaching my argument with experience from both sides.....
Marines are Way overpowered, from 6v6 on up, unless aliens use thier skills, which are not the same as marine skills... people think regeneration makes them invulnerable... god dammit if you were to have a gorge with his spit, and healspray, you could get something better at hive 1.... USE teamwork, and haev a much bigger advantage...
Well.. thats about all i have....
Try to be alien commander sometime.... just be a permagorge and look at ur minimap all the time, with a team that freaking isnt nub... tell them you want to try and coordinate people, and just see how it goes... assign people things, and put an emphasis on keeping the higher lifeforms ALIVE above ALL ELSE (as in be cautious with lerks, fades) FLEE FIRST, GO BACK LATER, the res you save WILL mean the difference between winning and losing, regardless of whether you rack up a huge killcount
~Jason
~Jason
If Marines work as a team, they <u>might</u> win. If Marines don't work as a team, they <u>will</u> lose.</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
IMO... it's exactly the opposite:
Aliens need to ambush/rush when they FAR outnumber the marines to stand a chance. This requires amazing teamwork. Even with Fades out, your Fades aren't going to be attacking lone HMGs are they? They need support.
Marines can rambo to the hive solo and cause a huge distraction. Even a single marine can kill 2-3 skulks easily if they don't ambush right. Pretty much the only 'teamwork' you need in the first 5 minutes of the game is for the comm to upgrade Armor1 and all the marines rush nodes. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I believe you are wrong...
As to your point about the fade.... Completely correct.... If the aliens ahd teamwork there would be a gorge nearby who would come heal, and umbra...
Never underestimate umbra... it totally pwns....
In a 12V12 Game (where statistically marines almost always win) They do not need teamwork to win, however, even marine teamwork cannot counter good alien teamwork....
Every map has chokepoints... if the aliens can hold the chokepoints they win....
Rambo's camp, if aliens spread out early, and make both o chambers AND resource nodes, designate someone for early hive, designate early fades, lerks, and who will drop the first chamber (if you wanna do a large game it HAS to be sensory, to stop the rambos that find a way through the map, with a 3-4 minute early hive (from R4K) you should ahve no problems as long as your fades are cautious for 3 minutes while the hive builds.....)
O chambers are a deterrent... and are NEEDED in large alien games, coupled with umbra, and a few smart skulks that do NOT rush down hallways at packs of 11 marines...... ive seen aliens win some good games....
I can tell in a game now within 30 seconds (easily) whether we are going to win...
Look at the map... if no chokepoints, res, are dropped, if the killboard lights up by idiot skulks, if no one says im earlk lerk, im hive, ive got res, im fade, ive got chambers... if no aliens COMMUNICATE... the game is over before it even starts....
I cant tell you how often i fade (im decent) go like 15-1 as fade (not always, but sometimes) and we lose miserably...
I can take that same 50 res, drop a 4 minute hive and watch us win (assuming it goes up (which is where chokepoitns come into play))
O chambers WILL DIE after the ~7-8 minute mark
BUT if you hold your 4-6 nodes till then, while NOT NUBRUSHING, bite down marine nodes, and accumulate a few RFK, ull have plenty to fade, onos, lerk,
My biggest peeve is that marines haev strengths, aliens ahve strength
I mean look, the aliens have like 20 different "weapons" and nearly half of them are NON OFFENSIVE weapons, they freaking scream TEAMWORK... The aliens have the mobility, stealth capability, flipping CLOACKING capabilities, regeneration, everything needed to stay alive... and yet you will still rush them mindlessly rather than parasite, bait, talk to your teammates, and work out an AMBUSH...
That is the difference between a good alien team and a bad alien team....
Btw.. i comm and play marine quite frequently, so im approaching my argument with experience from both sides.....
Marines are Way overpowered, from 6v6 on up, unless aliens use thier skills, which are not the same as marine skills... people think regeneration makes them invulnerable... god dammit if you were to have a gorge with his spit, and healspray, you could get something better at hive 1.... USE teamwork, and haev a much bigger advantage...
Well.. thats about all i have....
Try to be alien commander sometime.... just be a permagorge and look at ur minimap all the time, with a team that freaking isnt nub... tell them you want to try and coordinate people, and just see how it goes... assign people things, and put an emphasis on keeping the higher lifeforms ALIVE above ALL ELSE (as in be cautious with lerks, fades) FLEE FIRST, GO BACK LATER, the res you save WILL mean the difference between winning and losing, regardless of whether you rack up a huge killcount
~Jason
~Jason <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You make a good point, but, I think you're wrong. NS defines what all other games should achieve when it comes to balance. It's perfect.
It depends on the skill level of the players and the map you are playing.
I'd say tone HMGs down by giving them a wider radius, but let the GL get a bigger role by decreasing damage and perhaps shortening reload time. Give all weapons a niche, but the HMG excels at pretty much every area.
I also think that the amount of skill to play this game needs to be easier to understand so new or combat people won't be turned off by the hardcore gameplay. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Giving the HMG a larger spread would only make it easier to hit with it... is it is two ambushing skulks might get the HMGer if he panics, with a larger spray all he'd have to do is wave around wildly with his crosshair and get them in no time...
No, in 2.0 redemption was a fantastic way to annoy the hell out of marines as any lifeform, various little building bugs allowed gorges to do crazy things to any undefended IP, etc. Current version slants things back towards marines. Not by a huge amount, but enough to keep things manageable. This is, of course, my personal opinion on NS Classic, and therefore does not translate to CO.
Furthermore, try editing your posts, otherwise you're just going for postcount ++.
I think people just find it easier to just reply than make an edit which may go unoticed. Not sure why you think postcount has anything to do with it.
Unfortuantely I must break the irony of leaving my post as spam <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Giving the HMG a larger spread would only make it easier to hit with it... is it is two ambushing skulks might get the HMGer if he panics, with a larger spray all he'd have to do is wave around wildly with his crosshair and get them in no time... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you count on balancing the hmg, or any gun, by how many bullets a marine theoretically might <i>miss</i>, which the random spread would then turn into <i>hits</i>, the result will be no one killing much of anything. Killing a skulk by spraying bullets should never be encouraged over killing a skulk with precise aim.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->2.0 was insane slanted towards aliens.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No. You just don't know what you're talking about.... 2.01 was the most balanced build BY FAR. It was almost 50/50 at the end with marines having a slight 55/45 advantadge maybe. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...
<!--QuoteBegin-Nem0+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nem0)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Actually, there was quite a while in 2.0 where the aliens were significantly stronger.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Nadagast was talking about 2.01, zero was talking about 2.0
2.01 rocked
<!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Unfortuantely I must break the irony of leaving my post as spam <!--emo&::marine::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/marine.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='marine.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Giving the HMG a larger spread would only make it easier to hit with it... is it is two ambushing skulks might get the HMGer if he panics, with a larger spray all he'd have to do is wave around wildly with his crosshair and get them in no time... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you count on balancing the hmg, or any gun, by how many bullets a marine theoretically might <i>miss</i>, which the random spread would then turn into <i>hits</i>, the result will be no one killing much of anything. Killing a skulk by spraying bullets should never be encouraged over killing a skulk with precise aim. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
So you agree with me then? Great <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
YES
By the way. I bet cloaking promotes teamplay, because the Rambo's will get killed a lot by camping skulks, while the marines moving around in groups can see their enemies because the commanders uses scanner sweep frequently. If not, eject comm.
Now when we all agree that cloaking sucks, make focus better. It should increase damage, yes - but slow the rate of fire, no. An upgrade shouldn't make anything worse. It isn't like regeneration upgrade decreases maximum health or celerity upgrade makes the aliens regain energy slower or anything like that. Therefor focus shouldn't slow first attack either.
Better focus would unbalance combat you say? Well, who cares. Seriously. The combat players? They don't count.
Early res towers help aliens a lot, but they need to be protected, which is not easy for an alien that's meant for ambushing. Even ambushing is difficult if marines travel in packs or have a good idea of where you are. Early marine control of a map is too great, provided the marines can aim. I think OCs or lerks need more stopping power to slow down marine expansion. Maps are also another factor, in which bright maps give marines an advantage. Marines only really need sight and aim, while aliens need to rely on tactics, which is a harder game.
I think the period before the fades give marines too much of an advantage, even by watching the exi terror games. I think more power (not just damage, but other means) should be poured into the intial weapons of the aliens such as OCs, Lerks, and gorge, rather than just relying on a fade. In response, nerf the fade a bit because they would not be as needed.
By the way. I bet cloaking promotes teamplay, because the Rambo's will get killed a lot by camping skulks, while the marines moving around in groups can see their enemies because the commanders uses scanner sweep frequently. If not, eject comm.
Now when we all agree that cloaking sucks, make focus better. It should increase damage, yes - but slow the rate of fire, no. An upgrade shouldn't make anything worse. It isn't like regeneration upgrade decreases maximum health or celerity upgrade makes the aliens regain energy slower or anything like that. Therefor focus shouldn't slow first attack either.
Better focus would unbalance combat you say? Well, who cares. Seriously. The combat players? They don't count. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats how focus worked at first, but they had to tweak it since it was overpowered as crazy.
From my experience speed doesn't matter ALL that much, rates do. I think that the standard rates should be set VERY high, and then make 56kers edit them instead of the other way around. I dont know how many times Ive been killed by some nub who runs down a long hallway, but my bullets wont hit cause I use too low interp.
Increasing the skulk's speed would be a great thing, IMO. (only slight, though).