ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Lerks are already resistant to shotguns in a way. The biggest reisistance to shotguns: Distance. Lerks have this thing called a ranged attack that they can spam from a fairly safe vent far away and can hide there until the marines get JPs or GLs.
Part of the problem I see is that the shotgun is able to fire and empty its chamber in a matter of seconds. Its not so much that a shotgun deals to much damage, its that it deals to much damage <i>to fast</i>.
Perhaps if the re-fire rate were slowed down so it was a precision weapon instead of a close-range spam weapon it would be better. Might be to much, but perhaps even slowing it down to near 1.0 levels.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 28 2004, 08:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 28 2004, 08:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The shotgun is fine.
The HMG is way more powerful than the Shotty will ever be. The shotgun also requires a lot of skill. Why don't people complain about the HMG?
This topic is pointless. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Wow! Again you impress me for the second time this week Forlorn.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Oct 28 2004, 07:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Oct 28 2004, 07:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Why don't people complain about the HMG? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->That's probably due to the fact that the HMG's damage is continuous over an extended period of time - giving lifeforms some time to react and either fight or flee. The shotgun provides an almost instagib effect to the 3 lower kharra lifeforms and, in a single blast, can remove a significant chunk of the health of the large lifeforms.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This topic is pointless.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Perhaps if you posted something truly constructive - instead of your own opinions stated as fact - this thread wouldn't seem that way in your eyes. I personally see a good exchange of ideas and discussion on a core topic of NS. How that is pointless is beyond me.
The HMG is way more powerful than the Shotty will ever be. The shotgun also requires a lot of skill. Why don't people complain about the HMG?
This topic is pointless. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not ment to be a simple "bashing shotguns" thread. Rather, it's an overall look at the fundamentals of NS, and a comparison of the teams. The current situation is that one side, the marines, are great at both ranged and meele combat, whilst their counterparts the aliens are almost entirely focused upon meele. A marine in meele combat with an alien should have as much chance of survival as an alien in ranged comabt with a marine. This is not currently the case.
The shotgun is fine... random spread and a little less range would make it perfect.
It kills any skulk easily, but only if the shotgunner knows the skulk is there, or has a fair idea where it will be. They can still be killed by skulks, just takes a little luck or some teamwork. It can't hold a candle to the hmg at killing anything other than structures and hives.
The aliens don't really need a ranged weapon beyond spore, which is absolutly awesome till marines get welders. Even then it can turn the tide of any battle, HA aside.
As forlorn said.. it's the hmg that's overpowered. Unlike the shotgun, which allows things to engage and run away without taking damage it's uber at all ranges.
Well, I prefer the SG over the HMG any day. And as comm i will give my top-rines SGs and the other get HMGs. (I basically second that the SG needs more skill than the HMG)
The concpet of the SG is rather good imho. You can SG rush a hive with 5 rines and it will go down in a matter of seconds. You can form a 2 man node pressure team, who constantly take down alien res nodes with SGs.
As an alien it "feels" easier to kill the lone HMG dude than the lone SG maniac. For a matter of fact i fear SG rines, though i usually compare HMG rines to cheese-snacks.
IMO most ppl who think that the SG is overpowered mainly made this experience during CO-maps.
SG costs 2 points. The only true counter available at this stage of the game is leap and to a certain extend celeritey. (Some may see cloak is a counter to SG, but i consider it worthless)
If you dont have one of this two ups, when encountering SGs in CO (mind you CO not NS) it will be a hard round for you.
Sumup: Play more NS <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The HMG is way more powerful than the Shotty will ever be. The shotgun also requires a lot of skill. Why don't people complain about the HMG?
This topic is pointless. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not ment to be a simple "bashing shotguns" thread. Rather, it's an overall look at the fundamentals of NS, and a comparison of the teams. The current situation is that one side, the marines, are great at both ranged and meele combat, whilst their counterparts the aliens are almost entirely focused upon meele. A marine in meele combat with an alien should have as much chance of survival as an alien in ranged comabt with a marine. This is not currently the case. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But that's just it Ryo, the shotgun means you fight on the <b>aliens turf</b>. Okay? In other words, either you kill him or he kills you type deal. It's a high risk weapon that can yeild amazing results. Furthermore the counters to shotguns are:
- Range - It requires SKILL to use properly, therefore SKILL can counter it
First, on the range. Before you use the argument that "Only lerks have the ranged attacks!", think about it. What can a shotgunner do against 3 aliens charging him from different directions? If 3 skulks were to charge me from all sides, I'd be hard pressed to kill those skulks before the skulks killed me. I might get one or two, and the third only with some medpacks. Which, if you think about it, meds are a huge drain on your res flow not to mention you lose your armor from the engangement making you an easy target in the engangement. Whereas, I have an HMG. 3 skulks from 3 different directions? No problem, I can kill one from one direction, kill the second before he touches me, and the third who maybe lands one or two bites.
Since the shotgun has CRAP damage over range, it also can be countered with pure numbers, since aliens who are at a range may not be able to hurt you, but more importantly YOU cannot hurt THEM. Therefore the shotgun's damage potential is extremelly limited.
The same goes for a fade who attacks a shotgunner... as a fade I know that I can take one or two hits from the shotgun, then I run. Or I take one hit from the sg. I know the SG has a hard time damaging me if I just take little pot shots at him. Versus an HMG, I can't stay in the same room without me fearing death.
And again, because of the RANGE limitation of the shotgun, which places the marine on equal terms only in melee combat, that also means the shotgun is vulerable to fades with skulks, as the shotgunner can only really target the aliens once they get in close range, which means they are definately going to get hit as well. Marines who get hit are ALWAYS on the losing battle. Marines win through immediate fights whereas aliens win through attrition, always. No exceptions are ever in this rule. Therefore shotguns are extremely riskly as not only are they expensive to use (you typically need them in packs of 2-3), require meds to protect, and they almost always mean your marines are going to be in immediate danger in order to attack, it therefore follows the range limitation of the shotgun is it's biggest weakness, enough to the point that it alien tactics have a pretty easy time countering it.
In addition, the shotgunner can fire at targets from a distance; big deal. As an alien, I love it when shotgunners do that, as they waste one of their 8 precious shots on me, whereas if they had saved it they could have dealt much more, when they fire at a distance it deals something like 40% of it's total damage.
You say, "A marine in meele combat with an alien should have as much chance of survival as an alien in ranged comabt with a marine." And currently, a shotgun which costs 10 res has the upper hand on a skulk, a free unit. Where is the crime here??
I mean, you don't see me complain about lerks, which cost a measily 30 res, can hide in a vent all day, firing skilless spore weapons at me that kill my armor and make me die in two bites and totally remove the effectiveness of my medpacks, do you? You do realize that a lerk at a distance with spores and regen will never die to marines if the marines keep things at a range, right? That the only way to kill a lerk is with up close weapons or spending exporbant amounts of res on weapons like HMGs, GLs, or HAs? The aliens, ironcially enough have almost only melee attacks, and yet spores are the best ranged attack in the game. Hands down, it is 10x better than any ranged weapon the marines have, in terms of fighting a range. Acid rockets as well, beat anything marines have for ranged fighting. (but that's 3 hives, so)
Everything in this game has advantages over the other side in some way, and the whole point to NS is learning how to beat them at their own game. Learning the soft-counters is what makes NS great.
Dragon Mech says:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's probably due to the fact that the HMG's damage is continuous over an extended period of time - giving lifeforms some time to react and either fight or flee. The shotgun provides an almost instagib effect to the 3 lower kharra lifeforms and, in a single blast, can remove a significant chunk of the health of the large lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Shotgun is much much easier to judge, as you know it only deals it's max damage when you are in a fairly enclosed area. Furthermore an HMG can do the instagib effect not only to skulks, but to lerks, gorges, and even fades, mind you all at distances or up close.
And what's with the big use of words? "a single blast, can remove a significant chunk of the health of the large lifeforms." OF course it removes a chunk of their HP, it deals on average around 200 dmg. What's the point of wording it like that other than to somehow sway people to your argument's position ? Stick to the facts, please... In terms of numbers, HMG's kill 1-2 seconds faster than the shotgun does. The HMG is not continuous, it's steady and extremely fast. Did you know it only takes like 40 something HMG bullets to kill a fade, versus 4 shotgun shots? HMG's <b>tear</b> anything apart. It's essentially a railgun. 40 bullets out of 125 versus 4 shotgun shots, out of 8 total. Tell me again, which is the better anti-lifeform weapon?
The shotgun is this:
A medium level marine weapon that can deal with medium level alien units. This alone is not enough to make the shotgun a worthy investment, so it also follows that it's the only direct damage type weapon that can kill structures in any reasonable amount of time. The shotgun allows marines to place a lot of pressure on aliens as the aliens ramp up their tech, and the shotgun is still a difficult weapon to use as it almost always requires teamwork to be effective, as well as serve as a threat to large alien structures (hive) therefore forcing the aliens to respond to marine offensives.
Why do you think you never see competetive players complain about the shotgun? The truth is, it's because everyone realizes that with a nerfed shotgun fades would probably dominate really hard, as well as any sort of mass alien node control. The shotgun can be deadly, but even still if the only weapon after the LMG was the shotgun then I can almost guarentee you the aliens' win ratio would jump, because anything beyond mid level tech for aliens (lots of fades, 2 hives, onos) really dominate shotguns. And please, if you understand that HMG's are so much better than shotguns now, do not make a topic telling me why the HMG is overpowered, because again their are ways to counter the HMG as well.
Try playing competetive and with higher levels of skill, see how the shotgun is a fine weapon, it probably fits best into NS over any other weapon in the game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Faskalia+Oct 29 2004, 02:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Faskalia @ Oct 29 2004, 02:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well, I prefer the SG over the HMG any day. And as comm i will give my top-rines SGs and the other get HMGs. (I basically second that the SG needs more skill than the HMG)
The concpet of the SG is rather good imho. You can SG rush a hive with 5 rines and it will go down in a matter of seconds. You can form a 2 man node pressure team, who constantly take down alien res nodes with SGs.
As an alien it "feels" easier to kill the lone HMG dude than the lone SG maniac. For a matter of fact i fear SG rines, though i usually compare HMG rines to cheese-snacks.
IMO most ppl who think that the SG is overpowered mainly made this experience during CO-maps.
SG costs 2 points. The only true counter available at this stage of the game is leap and to a certain extend celeritey. (Some may see cloak is a counter to SG, but i consider it worthless)
If you dont have one of this two ups, when encountering SGs in CO (mind you CO not NS) it will be a hard round for you.
Sumup: Play more NS <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> holy wow... if you think SG's are better than HMG's then you are hitting your targets, nor are your marines man
The HMG really does outperform the Shotgun in every single way except reloading (better DoT, more damage/clip and better range and reliability) - that does not however mean that the current Shotgun isn't a bit over the top.
In my oppinion the friendly fire option should just set FF to 100% instead of 33%, that would be plenty of nerfing to the Shotgun (and GL, but meh).
Fun fact :
30 HMG bullets are required to kill a 1 Hive Fade - or 24 l3 HMG bullets. In other words, thats 5 Fades per clip, as opposed to the Shotguns 3, albeit not more than 1 is realisticly possible..
I'd have a sg over a hmg any day. I only ever get hmgs if there is an onos. (not from a comming point of view). But although a sg can be very deadly to lower lifeforms it stands little chance against a competant fade or onos. A lvl 0 hmg can damage around 200 hp per second. 2 hmgs = 400 hp per second. 3 hmgs = 600 hp per second. So in a second you can kill a fade with 3 hmgs. With sgs itrs also very easy to kill a fade with 3 sgers but hmgs have the advantage of range so they can kill the lifeform as it retreats. IMO an onos dies to 1 to 2 hmgs wayyy to easy. 75 res for an onos as opposed to 15 res for a hmg (i think). 30 for 2.
A bit off topic but i really hate how powerful hmgs are. I don't say nerf them or anything but they are really annoying.
Anyway the sg is the best weapon in the rines arsenal IMO
<!--QuoteBegin-|ds|meatshield+Oct 28 2004, 04:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Oct 28 2004, 04:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lerks are already resistant to shotguns in a way. The biggest reisistance to shotguns: Distance. Lerks have this thing called a ranged attack that they can spam from a fairly safe vent far away and can hide there until the marines get JPs or GLs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But shotguns can make JPers resistant to lerks anti-air.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The HMG is way more powerful than the Shotty will ever be. The shotgun also requires a lot of skill. Why don't people complain about the HMG?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because the topic is about shotguns and not HMGs. I complain about both.
<!--QuoteBegin-Maian+Oct 29 2004, 08:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maian @ Oct 29 2004, 08:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-|ds|meatshield+Oct 28 2004, 04:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Oct 28 2004, 04:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lerks are already resistant to shotguns in a way. The biggest reisistance to shotguns: Distance. Lerks have this thing called a ranged attack that they can spam from a fairly safe vent far away and can hide there until the marines get JPs or GLs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But shotguns can make JPers resistant to lerks anti-air. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If there are marine JP/SGs in your hive, lerks shouldn't be flying around trying to bite them to death, that's just dumb thinking on the lerk's part. The lerk's job is to keep up the sporing and umbraing, while the skulks leap and bite the JPers, the fades blink and swipe the JPers. If the marines are JP/HMGs, then the lerks just umbra a lot, wait for them to reload, then swoop in for the kill with other aliens.
It requires a lot of skill to aim a weapon with a good amount a spread while flying though the air shooting at a bat that can fly as fast as you and dosen't have to manage aiming and flying at the same time.
30 HMG bullets are required to kill a 1 Hive Fade - or 24 l3 HMG bullets. In other words, thats 5 Fades per clip, as opposed to the Shotguns 3, albeit not more than 1 is realisticly possible.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> it takes 4 shots from an SG to kill a fade, untill lv. 2 weapons.
The 5 vs 3 numbers are for level 3 weapons, although upon going over it that would leave one Fade with 80hp or so in the case of the Shotgun. Crap luck <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-crisano+Oct 29 2004, 10:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crisano @ Oct 29 2004, 10:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Maian+Oct 29 2004, 08:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maian @ Oct 29 2004, 08:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-|ds|meatshield+Oct 28 2004, 04:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Oct 28 2004, 04:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lerks are already resistant to shotguns in a way. The biggest reisistance to shotguns: Distance. Lerks have this thing called a ranged attack that they can spam from a fairly safe vent far away and can hide there until the marines get JPs or GLs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But shotguns can make JPers resistant to lerks anti-air. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If there are marine JP/SGs in your hive, lerks shouldn't be flying around trying to bite them to death, that's just dumb thinking on the lerk's part. The lerk's job is to keep up the sporing and umbraing, while the skulks leap and bite the JPers, the fades blink and swipe the JPers. If the marines are JP/HMGs, then the lerks just umbra a lot, wait for them to reload, then swoop in for the kill with other aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think they should have a bigger anti-air role than just sporing and umbraing. If it wasn't for shotguns, lerks would fare much better in classic. As a lerk, I fear shotguns more than HMGs.
The SG's only advantage over the HMG is really it's ability to deal damage quickly to structures. It leaves you weaker than an HMG vs any lifeform, and still don't clear out masses of buildings or kill a hive nearly as effectivly as a GL or siege.
It simply gives the aliens a unit to worry about as an immediate threat, because while it's not king at anything, it's certainly something to be cautious of.
<!--QuoteBegin-Maian+Oct 29 2004, 07:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maian @ Oct 29 2004, 07:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-crisano+Oct 29 2004, 10:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crisano @ Oct 29 2004, 10:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Maian+Oct 29 2004, 08:48 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Maian @ Oct 29 2004, 08:48 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-|ds|meatshield+Oct 28 2004, 04:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Oct 28 2004, 04:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Lerks are already resistant to shotguns in a way. The biggest reisistance to shotguns: Distance. Lerks have this thing called a ranged attack that they can spam from a fairly safe vent far away and can hide there until the marines get JPs or GLs. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But shotguns can make JPers resistant to lerks anti-air. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If there are marine JP/SGs in your hive, lerks shouldn't be flying around trying to bite them to death, that's just dumb thinking on the lerk's part. The lerk's job is to keep up the sporing and umbraing, while the skulks leap and bite the JPers, the fades blink and swipe the JPers. If the marines are JP/HMGs, then the lerks just umbra a lot, wait for them to reload, then swoop in for the kill with other aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I think they should have a bigger anti-air role than just sporing and umbraing. If it wasn't for shotguns, lerks would fare much better in classic. As a lerk, I fear shotguns more than HMGs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That makes no sense, because in order to live past a shotgun, all you need to do is get far away from them.
To escape an HMG, you need to be out of their line of sight. Look, just because you do not play against players who can aim does not mean that the HMG is weaker. This is a game of <b>numbers</b> we are playing here, and face it, the HMG wins over the shotgun hands down in every anti-lifeform situation.
<!--QuoteBegin-Windelkron+Oct 30 2004, 05:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Windelkron @ Oct 30 2004, 05:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Someone has finally said it. Good job, Ryo... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Did you read or just post
The 'inner' pentagon of 5 shots is lethal to a level 0 skulk at up to 10 metres, with random this would no longer be a problem.
The reason why shotguns are sometimes considered more dangerous to fades than hmgs is as follows:
As a fade, you can easily estimate how quickly your health goes down when taking fire from an HMG. You can hear the shots, and tell how many are hitting you, so you have a better chance to tell when to retreat.
However, with shotguns you've no idea whether the marine will be competent at hitting you. Most crap marines will be lucky to land 3 hits per shot, but a decent marine will get a full 10 hits every shot, and if he lands 3 or 4 shots you're in real trouble.
4 marines with shotguns can take down a fade in under a second if they're good, it's just too difficult to predict whether they're gonna hit you or not. If they do, it does a massive amount of damage.
It is this that makes shotguns so dangerous to fades, in particular.
The key is using skulks to kill the marine while the fades take the hits.
You ever try taking on 2 HMGers as a fade? Sometimes you can die before you blink (eye function, and yes, pun intended). If there are any more camping a crucial spot, there's no way you're going to survive first encounter.
Shotguns are much more dangerous than HMGs at long range, as long as the range is still withing the range of the shotgun. This is as HMG fires in a cone, whereas Shotgun doesn't spread out much at all, hitting exactly where those 10 pre-determined dots are on your crosshair. They go from full damage to 0 abover a certain range, which is why you can easily die to 2 shotgun shots at long range as a lerk. The shotgun pelletes shoud each do less damage with range, as a real shotgun does. A shotgun just isn't all that powerfull beyond 50m!
<!--QuoteBegin-d0omie+Oct 31 2004, 12:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (d0omie @ Oct 31 2004, 12:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Shotguns are much more dangerous than HMGs at long range, as long as the range is still withing the range of the shotgun. This is as HMG fires in a cone, whereas Shotgun doesn't spread out much at all, hitting exactly where those 10 pre-determined dots are on your crosshair. They go from full damage to 0 abover a certain range, which is why you can easily die to 2 shotgun shots at long range as a lerk. The shotgun pelletes shoud each do less damage with range, as a real shotgun does. A shotgun just isn't all that powerfull beyond 50m! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No, they definately are not.
Furthermore giving shotguns a random spread would make it a lot worse, as would nerfing it's range. Make it any worse and people will stop using it. Right now it's just at the level where it's good but not overpowered, yet people still complain about it. THat's generally a good indication that the shotgun is fine and there are many other things to work on.
<!--QuoteBegin-d0omie+Oct 31 2004, 12:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (d0omie @ Oct 31 2004, 12:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Shotguns are much more dangerous than HMGs at long range, as long as the range is still withing the range of the shotgun. This is as HMG fires in a cone, whereas Shotgun doesn't spread out much at all, hitting exactly where those 10 pre-determined dots are on your crosshair. They go from full damage to 0 abover a certain range, which is why you can easily die to 2 shotgun shots at long range as a lerk. The shotgun pelletes shoud each do less damage with range, as a real shotgun does. A shotgun just isn't all that powerfull beyond 50m! <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I can take a remmy, stand halfway accross a football field, aim 5 feet to your left, and blow your face off
If these shotgun's were "realistic" they'd have to become a hell of a lot stronger
Comments
Perhaps if the re-fire rate were slowed down so it was a precision weapon instead of a close-range spam weapon it would be better. Might be to much, but perhaps even slowing it down to near 1.0 levels.
The HMG is way more powerful than the Shotty will ever be. The shotgun also requires a lot of skill. Why don't people complain about the HMG?
This topic is pointless.
The HMG is way more powerful than the Shotty will ever be. The shotgun also requires a lot of skill. Why don't people complain about the HMG?
This topic is pointless. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Wow! Again you impress me for the second time this week Forlorn.
I concur with your statement.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This topic is pointless.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Perhaps if you posted something truly constructive - instead of your own opinions stated as fact - this thread wouldn't seem that way in your eyes. I personally see a good exchange of ideas and discussion on a core topic of NS. How that is pointless is beyond me.
The HMG is way more powerful than the Shotty will ever be. The shotgun also requires a lot of skill. Why don't people complain about the HMG?
This topic is pointless.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not ment to be a simple "bashing shotguns" thread. Rather, it's an overall look at the fundamentals of NS, and a comparison of the teams. The current situation is that one side, the marines, are great at both ranged and meele combat, whilst their counterparts the aliens are almost entirely focused upon meele. A marine in meele combat with an alien should have as much chance of survival as an alien in ranged comabt with a marine. This is not currently the case.
It kills any skulk easily, but only if the shotgunner knows the skulk is there, or has a fair idea where it will be. They can still be killed by skulks, just takes a little luck or some teamwork. It can't hold a candle to the hmg at killing anything other than structures and hives.
The aliens don't really need a ranged weapon beyond spore, which is absolutly awesome till marines get welders. Even then it can turn the tide of any battle, HA aside.
As forlorn said.. it's the hmg that's overpowered. Unlike the shotgun, which allows things to engage and run away without taking damage it's uber at all ranges.
The concpet of the SG is rather good imho. You can SG rush a hive with 5 rines and it will go down in a matter of seconds. You can form a 2 man node pressure team, who constantly take down alien res nodes with SGs.
As an alien it "feels" easier to kill the lone HMG dude than the lone SG maniac. For a matter of fact i fear SG rines, though i usually compare HMG rines to cheese-snacks.
IMO most ppl who think that the SG is overpowered mainly made this experience during CO-maps.
SG costs 2 points. The only true counter available at this stage of the game is leap and to a certain extend celeritey. (Some may see cloak is a counter to SG, but i consider it worthless)
If you dont have one of this two ups, when encountering SGs in CO (mind you CO not NS) it will be a hard round for you.
Sumup: Play more NS <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The HMG is way more powerful than the Shotty will ever be. The shotgun also requires a lot of skill. Why don't people complain about the HMG?
This topic is pointless.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is not ment to be a simple "bashing shotguns" thread. Rather, it's an overall look at the fundamentals of NS, and a comparison of the teams. The current situation is that one side, the marines, are great at both ranged and meele combat, whilst their counterparts the aliens are almost entirely focused upon meele. A marine in meele combat with an alien should have as much chance of survival as an alien in ranged comabt with a marine. This is not currently the case. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But that's just it Ryo, the shotgun means you fight on the <b>aliens turf</b>. Okay? In other words, either you kill him or he kills you type deal. It's a high risk weapon that can yeild amazing results. Furthermore the counters to shotguns are:
- Range
- It requires SKILL to use properly, therefore SKILL can counter it
First, on the range. Before you use the argument that "Only lerks have the ranged attacks!", think about it. What can a shotgunner do against 3 aliens charging him from different directions? If 3 skulks were to charge me from all sides, I'd be hard pressed to kill those skulks before the skulks killed me. I might get one or two, and the third only with some medpacks. Which, if you think about it, meds are a huge drain on your res flow not to mention you lose your armor from the engangement making you an easy target in the engangement.
Whereas, I have an HMG. 3 skulks from 3 different directions? No problem, I can kill one from one direction, kill the second before he touches me, and the third who maybe lands one or two bites.
Since the shotgun has CRAP damage over range, it also can be countered with pure numbers, since aliens who are at a range may not be able to hurt you, but more importantly YOU cannot hurt THEM. Therefore the shotgun's damage potential is extremelly limited.
The same goes for a fade who attacks a shotgunner... as a fade I know that I can take one or two hits from the shotgun, then I run. Or I take one hit from the sg. I know the SG has a hard time damaging me if I just take little pot shots at him. Versus an HMG, I can't stay in the same room without me fearing death.
And again, because of the RANGE limitation of the shotgun, which places the marine on equal terms only in melee combat, that also means the shotgun is vulerable to fades with skulks, as the shotgunner can only really target the aliens once they get in close range, which means they are definately going to get hit as well. Marines who get hit are ALWAYS on the losing battle. Marines win through immediate fights whereas aliens win through attrition, always. No exceptions are ever in this rule. Therefore shotguns are extremely riskly as not only are they expensive to use (you typically need them in packs of 2-3), require meds to protect, and they almost always mean your marines are going to be in immediate danger in order to attack, it therefore follows the range limitation of the shotgun is it's biggest weakness, enough to the point that it alien tactics have a pretty easy time countering it.
In addition, the shotgunner can fire at targets from a distance; big deal. As an alien, I love it when shotgunners do that, as they waste one of their 8 precious shots on me, whereas if they had saved it they could have dealt much more, when they fire at a distance it deals something like 40% of it's total damage.
You say,
"A marine in meele combat with an alien should have as much chance of survival as an alien in ranged comabt with a marine."
And currently, a shotgun which costs 10 res has the upper hand on a skulk, a free unit. Where is the crime here??
I mean, you don't see me complain about lerks, which cost a measily 30 res, can hide in a vent all day, firing skilless spore weapons at me that kill my armor and make me die in two bites and totally remove the effectiveness of my medpacks, do you? You do realize that a lerk at a distance with spores and regen will never die to marines if the marines keep things at a range, right? That the only way to kill a lerk is with up close weapons or spending exporbant amounts of res on weapons like HMGs, GLs, or HAs? The aliens, ironcially enough have almost only melee attacks, and yet spores are the best ranged attack in the game. Hands down, it is 10x better than any ranged weapon the marines have, in terms of fighting a range. Acid rockets as well, beat anything marines have for ranged fighting. (but that's 3 hives, so)
Everything in this game has advantages over the other side in some way, and the whole point to NS is learning how to beat them at their own game. Learning the soft-counters is what makes NS great.
Dragon Mech says:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's probably due to the fact that the HMG's damage is continuous over an extended period of time - giving lifeforms some time to react and either fight or flee. The shotgun provides an almost instagib effect to the 3 lower kharra lifeforms and, in a single blast, can remove a significant chunk of the health of the large lifeforms.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The Shotgun is much much easier to judge, as you know it only deals it's max damage when you are in a fairly enclosed area. Furthermore an HMG can do the instagib effect not only to skulks, but to lerks, gorges, and even fades, mind you all at distances or up close.
And what's with the big use of words? "a single blast, can remove a significant chunk of the health of the large lifeforms." OF course it removes a chunk of their HP, it deals on average around 200 dmg. What's the point of wording it like that other than to somehow sway people to your argument's position ? Stick to the facts, please...
In terms of numbers, HMG's kill 1-2 seconds faster than the shotgun does. The HMG is not continuous, it's steady and extremely fast. Did you know it only takes like 40 something HMG bullets to kill a fade, versus 4 shotgun shots? HMG's <b>tear</b> anything apart. It's essentially a railgun. 40 bullets out of 125 versus 4 shotgun shots, out of 8 total. Tell me again, which is the better anti-lifeform weapon?
The shotgun is this:
A medium level marine weapon that can deal with medium level alien units. This alone is not enough to make the shotgun a worthy investment, so it also follows that it's the only direct damage type weapon that can kill structures in any reasonable amount of time. The shotgun allows marines to place a lot of pressure on aliens as the aliens ramp up their tech, and the shotgun is still a difficult weapon to use as it almost always requires teamwork to be effective, as well as serve as a threat to large alien structures (hive) therefore forcing the aliens to respond to marine offensives.
Why do you think you never see competetive players complain about the shotgun? The truth is, it's because everyone realizes that with a nerfed shotgun fades would probably dominate really hard, as well as any sort of mass alien node control. The shotgun can be deadly, but even still if the only weapon after the LMG was the shotgun then I can almost guarentee you the aliens' win ratio would jump, because anything beyond mid level tech for aliens (lots of fades, 2 hives, onos) really dominate shotguns. And please, if you understand that HMG's are so much better than shotguns now, do not make a topic telling me why the HMG is overpowered, because again their are ways to counter the HMG as well.
Try playing competetive and with higher levels of skill, see how the shotgun is a fine weapon, it probably fits best into NS over any other weapon in the game.
The concpet of the SG is rather good imho. You can SG rush a hive with 5 rines and it will go down in a matter of seconds. You can form a 2 man node pressure team, who constantly take down alien res nodes with SGs.
As an alien it "feels" easier to kill the lone HMG dude than the lone SG maniac. For a matter of fact i fear SG rines, though i usually compare HMG rines to cheese-snacks.
IMO most ppl who think that the SG is overpowered mainly made this experience during CO-maps.
SG costs 2 points. The only true counter available at this stage of the game is leap and to a certain extend celeritey. (Some may see cloak is a counter to SG, but i consider it worthless)
If you dont have one of this two ups, when encountering SGs in CO (mind you CO not NS) it will be a hard round for you.
Sumup: Play more NS <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
holy wow... if you think SG's are better than HMG's then you are hitting your targets, nor are your marines man
In my oppinion the friendly fire option should just set FF to 100% instead of 33%, that would be plenty of nerfing to the Shotgun (and GL, but meh).
Fun fact :
30 HMG bullets are required to kill a 1 Hive Fade - or 24 l3 HMG bullets. In other words, thats 5 Fades per clip, as opposed to the Shotguns 3, albeit not more than 1 is realisticly possible..
A bit off topic but i really hate how powerful hmgs are. I don't say nerf them or anything but they are really annoying.
Anyway the sg is the best weapon in the rines arsenal IMO
But shotguns can make JPers resistant to lerks anti-air.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The HMG is way more powerful than the Shotty will ever be. The shotgun also requires a lot of skill. Why don't people complain about the HMG?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because the topic is about shotguns and not HMGs. I complain about both.
But shotguns can make JPers resistant to lerks anti-air. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
If there are marine JP/SGs in your hive, lerks shouldn't be flying around trying to bite them to death, that's just dumb thinking on the lerk's part. The lerk's job is to keep up the sporing and umbraing, while the skulks leap and bite the JPers, the fades blink and swipe the JPers. If the marines are JP/HMGs, then the lerks just umbra a lot, wait for them to reload, then swoop in for the kill with other aliens.
30 HMG bullets are required to kill a 1 Hive Fade - or 24 l3 HMG bullets. In other words, thats 5 Fades per clip, as opposed to the Shotguns 3, albeit not more than 1 is realisticly possible.. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
it takes 4 shots from an SG to kill a fade, untill lv. 2 weapons.
But shotguns can make JPers resistant to lerks anti-air. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If there are marine JP/SGs in your hive, lerks shouldn't be flying around trying to bite them to death, that's just dumb thinking on the lerk's part. The lerk's job is to keep up the sporing and umbraing, while the skulks leap and bite the JPers, the fades blink and swipe the JPers. If the marines are JP/HMGs, then the lerks just umbra a lot, wait for them to reload, then swoop in for the kill with other aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think they should have a bigger anti-air role than just sporing and umbraing. If it wasn't for shotguns, lerks would fare much better in classic. As a lerk, I fear shotguns more than HMGs.
The SG's only advantage over the HMG is really it's ability to deal damage quickly to structures. It leaves you weaker than an HMG vs any lifeform, and still don't clear out masses of buildings or kill a hive nearly as effectivly as a GL or siege.
It simply gives the aliens a unit to worry about as an immediate threat, because while it's not king at anything, it's certainly something to be cautious of.
But shotguns can make JPers resistant to lerks anti-air. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If there are marine JP/SGs in your hive, lerks shouldn't be flying around trying to bite them to death, that's just dumb thinking on the lerk's part. The lerk's job is to keep up the sporing and umbraing, while the skulks leap and bite the JPers, the fades blink and swipe the JPers. If the marines are JP/HMGs, then the lerks just umbra a lot, wait for them to reload, then swoop in for the kill with other aliens. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I think they should have a bigger anti-air role than just sporing and umbraing. If it wasn't for shotguns, lerks would fare much better in classic. As a lerk, I fear shotguns more than HMGs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That makes no sense, because in order to live past a shotgun, all you need to do is get far away from them.
To escape an HMG, you need to be out of their line of sight. Look, just because you do not play against players who can aim does not mean that the HMG is weaker. This is a game of <b>numbers</b> we are playing here, and face it, the HMG wins over the shotgun hands down in every anti-lifeform situation.
Did you read or just post
The 'inner' pentagon of 5 shots is lethal to a level 0 skulk at up to 10 metres, with random this would no longer be a problem.
The reason why shotguns are sometimes considered more dangerous to fades than hmgs is as follows:
As a fade, you can easily estimate how quickly your health goes down when taking fire from an HMG. You can hear the shots, and tell how many are hitting you, so you have a better chance to tell when to retreat.
However, with shotguns you've no idea whether the marine will be competent at hitting you. Most crap marines will be lucky to land 3 hits per shot, but a decent marine will get a full 10 hits every shot, and if he lands 3 or 4 shots you're in real trouble.
4 marines with shotguns can take down a fade in under a second if they're good, it's just too difficult to predict whether they're gonna hit you or not. If they do, it does a massive amount of damage.
It is this that makes shotguns so dangerous to fades, in particular.
The key is using skulks to kill the marine while the fades take the hits.
Usually, if two shotgun blasts land on me, I don't even bother to look how much armor I've got left. I start blinking out.
No, they definately are not.
Furthermore giving shotguns a random spread would make it a lot worse, as would nerfing it's range. Make it any worse and people will stop using it. Right now it's just at the level where it's good but not overpowered, yet people still complain about it. THat's generally a good indication that the shotgun is fine and there are many other things to work on.
I can take a remmy, stand halfway accross a football field, aim 5 feet to your left, and blow your face off
If these shotgun's were "realistic" they'd have to become a hell of a lot stronger