I Believe The Concept Of The Shotgun
RyoOhki
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
Join Date: 2003-01-26 Member: 12789Members
<div class="IPBDescription">Is fundamentally flawed</div> In NS, two very differant teams fight against each other. On the one hand, we have the marines. To boil them down to a base level, they're ranged units. They excel at ranged combat. This is, I believe, their fundamental concept. The aliens are the opposite; they're meele fighters. They are supposed to excel at close combat.
The problem with this is that one side, the marines, have a fantastic close combat weapon: the shotgun. Combine this with the ranged weapons at the disposal of the marines, and you quickly find that you have a team that excels at both ranged AND meele combat. The aliens simply have no equivilant setup. Spit, spore, parasite and acid rocket make up the vast alien ranged arsonal. Spit is good for a laugh, spores can be effective but against compitant marines in CO or Classic they really don't do much damage, parasite is great for tagging marines but it pointless for damage purposes, acid rocket...well, it blows up mines.
This set-up of the alien side forces them to close to meele range with marine forces; every major damaging weapon for the aliens is meele. Yet the aliens will often lose in close quaters combat. Why? Partially because the marines hop around like they're on acid, and knockback doesn't help. But the main reason is that the marine's weaponry is just as effective at close range as long. Two marine weapons, the HMG and shotgun, are argueably better close range because all the projectiles will hit. The HMG though does not compare to the shotgun in terms of close quarters fighting however; the shotgun reigns supreme.
To explain this further, let's imagine a scenario. An alien side decides to fight the marines in a ranged battle. This will almost certainly result in a loss for the alien side. What few ranged attacks they have are too weak to do significant damage. The marines will win 9/10 ranged battles, if not more. Now reverse the situation. A marine side decides to fight the aliens in a meele battle. The reverse should be true correct? The aliens should win 9/10. Except they don't. Closing into meele range with marines exposes you to the dreaded shotguns, which can and will one-shot kill 3 of the 5 alien lifeforms. HMGs in close range are quite nasty as well, and let's not forget GLs, which on non-FF servers reach new levels of spammage.
Some alien abilities help. Umbra is supposed to help you stay alive longer, and it does. Trouble is, it's around .02 seconds longer, as this ability has been thumped with the nerf stick so many times. Leap enables you to close the distance quickly, but you still face the problem of being in close combat. Focus allows you to do more damage, but let's face it, on non-unchained servers, you'll rarely if ever see focus. The one thing some aliens do have it more HP, but this goes very quickly, and as I've said, 3 of the alien lifeforms die in one shot from shotguns anyway.
Given that the fudamental concepts of the two sides are that one are focused on ranged attacks, and the other on meele, the shotgun makes no sense. I would prefer to see it replaced with a medium machine gun of some description, as a middle point between the LMG and HMG. Perhaps if marines are struck in meele combat their aim is ruined. I know I'd find it hard to shoot an alien accuratly when half my leg is missing. If this is not feasible, buff the hell out of alien ranged weaponry so that they are on the same playing field as the marines.
Flame on.
The problem with this is that one side, the marines, have a fantastic close combat weapon: the shotgun. Combine this with the ranged weapons at the disposal of the marines, and you quickly find that you have a team that excels at both ranged AND meele combat. The aliens simply have no equivilant setup. Spit, spore, parasite and acid rocket make up the vast alien ranged arsonal. Spit is good for a laugh, spores can be effective but against compitant marines in CO or Classic they really don't do much damage, parasite is great for tagging marines but it pointless for damage purposes, acid rocket...well, it blows up mines.
This set-up of the alien side forces them to close to meele range with marine forces; every major damaging weapon for the aliens is meele. Yet the aliens will often lose in close quaters combat. Why? Partially because the marines hop around like they're on acid, and knockback doesn't help. But the main reason is that the marine's weaponry is just as effective at close range as long. Two marine weapons, the HMG and shotgun, are argueably better close range because all the projectiles will hit. The HMG though does not compare to the shotgun in terms of close quarters fighting however; the shotgun reigns supreme.
To explain this further, let's imagine a scenario. An alien side decides to fight the marines in a ranged battle. This will almost certainly result in a loss for the alien side. What few ranged attacks they have are too weak to do significant damage. The marines will win 9/10 ranged battles, if not more. Now reverse the situation. A marine side decides to fight the aliens in a meele battle. The reverse should be true correct? The aliens should win 9/10. Except they don't. Closing into meele range with marines exposes you to the dreaded shotguns, which can and will one-shot kill 3 of the 5 alien lifeforms. HMGs in close range are quite nasty as well, and let's not forget GLs, which on non-FF servers reach new levels of spammage.
Some alien abilities help. Umbra is supposed to help you stay alive longer, and it does. Trouble is, it's around .02 seconds longer, as this ability has been thumped with the nerf stick so many times. Leap enables you to close the distance quickly, but you still face the problem of being in close combat. Focus allows you to do more damage, but let's face it, on non-unchained servers, you'll rarely if ever see focus. The one thing some aliens do have it more HP, but this goes very quickly, and as I've said, 3 of the alien lifeforms die in one shot from shotguns anyway.
Given that the fudamental concepts of the two sides are that one are focused on ranged attacks, and the other on meele, the shotgun makes no sense. I would prefer to see it replaced with a medium machine gun of some description, as a middle point between the LMG and HMG. Perhaps if marines are struck in meele combat their aim is ruined. I know I'd find it hard to shoot an alien accuratly when half my leg is missing. If this is not feasible, buff the hell out of alien ranged weaponry so that they are on the same playing field as the marines.
Flame on.
Comments
For a marine to kill you with a shotgun, HE HAS TO KNOW YOUR THERE. The advantage is that not every marine will check all the spots where a skulk can hide and this is what you are ment to use to your advantage...
there is nothing worng with sg, it gives the marines a fighting chance against the fades and skulks.
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But you can't get rid of the shotty. Marines will have nothing to reasonably defend themselves with at four minutes otherwise.
I think the problem is more the <i>vast</i> difference in effectiveness between fades (godly) and skulks (vs a good marine, or in even groups, just about useless).
So your saying that the only hope an alien team should have is to rush up the tech tree? That condemns the alien's to a very linear strategy to determine whether or not they win.
I don't want to get nostalgic, but in earlier versions the aliens had other alternatives. The lerk's spike for instance allowed the aliens to destroy structures at a low cost in lifeform concentration at hive 1. Now it was too effective since the only counters were the grenade launcher and the jetpack (the grenade upgrade we have now could be modifed to be a counter also). The problem is though that now the only lifeform of any merit is the fade, which is too powerful in the right hands. It has the same ability to take out structures without aid and also can take out marines as well with the same problem that there isn't a decent counter to deal with it.
However I don't believe that strategy tells the whole story or every game would end after the marines rush shotguns followed by an unstoppable rush on the alien's hive faster than they can produce a fade to stop the rush.
Taaketa:
The problem with hoping the marines won't notice you, is that it is a marine skill dependant advantage. This means that if a marine is sufficently skilled at spotting aliens, then the advantage evaporates. It doesn't matter how skilled the alien is, if the marine is good enough all the alien can do is keep retreating to try and ambush again, assuming the alien is skilled enough to escape.
Ryo-Ohki
Your taking only a part of the concepts that make up each side, so of course your going to find flaws looking at it that way. Which is not to say that flaws don't exist.
The marines are good at range but also they are stronger builders and economists. The aliens are superior in close combat (in theory) but are also faster and more knowledgable of the battlefield. Except they can be beaten by the marines at all of these advantages. Some lifeforms aren't faster than the marines, though I think all are capable of being faster if they choose, this means that the marine can happily chase down some lifeforms, removing an element of fear. The marines can also move faster on a battlefield level using phase gates, nullifying the alien's ambush defences. They know more about the battlefield with hive sight, except it has been nerfed to the point that skulks can no longer organise without having to talk anymore. Added to this the marines can gain better battlefield knowledge (such that they can beat ambushes in yet another way) by the motion tracking upgrade.
Up to a point the alien's don't matter, because it isn't them but the marines that determine how well they do. The fade does matter because again the marines are dependant on the fade's ability, to determine who wins.
You could argue that is what it always comes down to, but that isn't entirely true. It used to be that a lowly skulk could hold a larger force of marines up, such that they couldn't advance quickly to their objective. Now skulks drop so quickly that marines don't even have to pause to check their surroundings for more skulks, because the odds that the skulk warned his team of the marines is low (at least in pubs). It used to be that the gorge was impossible to surprise because a skulk would spot any ramboing marine, thus giving the gorge automatic forwarning (obvously warning is not always enough, but it did allow the gorge to sometimes just hide and let the marine go past).
Edit: Bye-bye, not really relevant bit.
The aliens used to pwn at extreme range with spikes and acid rocket, and this should be brought back.
Make meta hive 3 (its farr too good compared to AT)
Make Acid Rocket hive 2 (and give it a damage boost to compensate for being rubbish)
Make spores do more damage, and hurt HA again. As at the moment lerks can't do anything at all against HA. It only hurt their armour anyway....
Or give lerks spikes back and a better flight model so they can hover around like they used to be able too.
Or maybe Gorges should get spikes instead of spit?
Just some ideas... the game is more fun for marines and aliens when the shotgun doesn't work well vs all lifeforms.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.
this would ruin fading <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anyway, back to shotgun--the main problem I have with it is that it doesn't work like a shotgun. The pellets always go exactly the same place and it doesn't spread much at all.
From the many (many!) matches i've played versus all kinds of clans, from the top of europe to the noobiest clans around, we have always needed the shotgun to take down the fades, early or late, the lmg just won't deal with these, sometimes, with luck we took one down with our lmg's, and a fatal blast of handgun power, but mostly the shotgun.
What i think isn't good here:
Sg >>>>>> skulk
Fade >>>>> lmg
There's too big a gap between fade and skulk, and too big a gap between shotgun and lmg.
How to fix it, hell, i have no clue, ns has been around for so long already, i wonder if this can be fixed without changing the way ns is played forever..
...that isn't a bad idea. Either that, or just lose effectiveness(aka, 2 damage ftw!)
btw:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Shotguns are fairly inadquete against Fades and Oni. Both classes, when used properly and supported by their fellow aliens, can beat most shotgun/hmg squads at close quarters combat despite the marines' superior firepower. Nonetheless, its quite true that skulks hardly stand a chance against anything bigger than an LMG marine squad (leap does help a lot though), simply because 25% of the alien team is so powerful that, logically speaking, the remaining 75% will have to contend with being cannon fodder for the rest of the game in order to have the slightest inkling of game balance.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...give me 2 marines, both with Shotguns, level 0. Armor 0. Give me a fade with Regen. Fade loses. I'm sorry, but with people who know half of what to do with a Fade, they know- don't go against 2+ shotties(unless you are DAMNED sure they suck and/or of what your doing). Hell- give me lvl 1 armor/wep and I'll take the damned Fade alone, even above average.
Skill: The great unequaler(hence why fade will pwn me upon him being better than even the usual goodies).
O Knockback stays the same, but Marines are now inflicted with a disorienting shake whenever struck by a melee attack. This will throw off their aim and will be relative to the strength of the attack (skulk bite is short while Onos gore is longer).
O The area of effect for all of the melee attacks (except gore and maaaybe lerk bite) should be increased a bit. I'm thinking more of a wider field instead of range. A Fade should hit anything standing in a 90-140 degree arc in front of it.
O Fixed hitboxes (fortunately this should already be fixed)
O Perhaps up the damage for all Kharaa attacks (probably not needed with the disorienting effect)
The shotgun wouldn't be so bad if the Kharaa were actually more devastating in melee. Then the shotgun would be a bit less overpowered, as getting hit would throw off your aim and disorient you for a bit, meaning you have to kill the Kharaa before it gets close or stay in groups to prevent getting messed up. Ambushes would be more effective and the Kharaa would once again have the melee advantage. I think this would up gameplay immensely. It would force Marines to stick together and work as a team, as letting Kharaa get close would equal death, AS IT WAS ALWAYS MEANT TO BE.
That's already in. Stand in Viaduct hive at one wall, and try to hit the other. No bullet marks.
Though the shotgun still has fairly long range before this where it does full damage... shotgun sniping...
Hive 1 fade loses, hive 2 fade has a good chance to win if he can take the first rine out quick, and at hive 3 there is no question who will win. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As to the concept being flawed, I have to agree to a certain degree. Insta-gib == bad, and shotgun produces those the most. MMG, anyone?
No. The best possible outcome for the 2 A0 Shotgunners is to stave him off via intimidation - if he <i>knows</i> you only have 2 swipes in you, he's going to get that window of opportunity soon enough. In a beneficial position, you can indeed ward him off long enough by just smacking him each time he attempts to approach - but eventually, a) you have to move b) he will figure out a way to use the terrain to draw your fire instead of attacking and c) his teammates will help with spores and skulks.
The main role of every alien class is essentially baiting and stalling until an opportunity for a quick kill opens, and just because SGing a few lunixmonster (cough bob cough) Fades isn't rocketscience doesn't mean thats the intelligent way to use a Fade.
That's already in. Stand in Viaduct hive at one wall, and try to hit the other. No bullet marks.
Though the shotgun still has fairly long range before this where it does full damage... shotgun sniping... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Have you not learned that wall decals are a very, very bad tool to use in determining anything to do with a gun?
Remember the "random" shotgun spread which turned out to come out in a consistent pattern?
theres also the time for the fade to blink at you, if it misses you, and if it does miss you, it would probably try to run which is even more time to get shot at, in all that time, if the marine hits about half of those shots, the fade would be dead with weapons 1
Yes.
Shotguns are not effective against oni. The HMG is vastly more powerful than the shotgun against alien units since it allows marines to retain their range advantage.
this sentence just gave me an idea. wouldn't it be cool if the acid rocket flew in a sort of corkscrew?
i have nothing to say about the shotty :/ i dont think theres a real problem.
Skulks, on the other hands, should die to shotguns, so I don't see a problem with that. Lerks should never get close enough to a shotgunner to get hit with a full blast (spores for teh win) and an Onos has enough hp to get out safely after a devour before frankly, unless the distance is short, half or more of the pellets will miss. In short,t he shotgun SUCKS for taking out higher lifeforms. HMGs are better.
if somebody has a shotgun, it just means skulks especially cant run out in the open at rines. they have to hide behind corners.