I was thinking about the SG and HMG fixes too. Here is my opinion explained in a lifeform POV:-
lmg should be effective to - skulks, gorges, lerks SG should be effective to - skulks, gorges, lerks (if close range), fades HMG should be effective to - skulks, gorges, lerks, fades, onos
Why I feel that SG shouldn't damage the Onos that much is due to the nature of the SG. We all know ONOS have a thick armour and SG uses small pellets. Looking at it in a CSI way, just say you take a thick metal sheet and fire the SG on it. The pellets doesn't quite go thru. However if you take a HMG (armour penetrating rounds) and fire it on the metal sheet. The bullets will go thru.
Let's apply this to the typical game itself. The Fade now is the chioce of most good players instead of the ONOS even if the onos cost another mere 25 res more. Why? Becuz they can blink out quick enuf and blink in fast enuf to deal damage. Being so... In order to kill that Fade quickly, SG are the most effective becuz it does instant HUGE damage to that lifeform with minimum effort. If the fade didn't pay attention to his health, he will most likely die. Added to that instant huge damage concept, the SG also does the same thing to ONOS. Therefore, this is why Onos is very seldom used in classic games unless you have 2 hives. Hence the name PAPER ONOS!!!
If my ideas was implemented into the game, the game will go something like this. 1) Games starts. Marines rush out to cap rts. Alien cap maybe 1 or 2 more rts and the rest skulk to ambush marines. 2) Marine will hold 6~7 rts within the first 6mins of the game with aliens controlling only 2~3 rts. Thus allowing marines to get upgrades FAST. 3) Marine now focus their attack on aliens rts and the aliens themselves. Aliens needs to push them back with 1 or 2 Fades. 4) To counter the Fades, comm gives SGs and allow the team attempts to kill the Fade. Fades now play cautiously and tries to take out the SG'er 1 by 1. The skulks change their roles from marine hunter to rt hunters. 5) Now the rts control is 50/50. Onos appears and takes out the SG'er like playthings. To counter, comm gives out HMGs but not to everyone cuz there are still fades running around. Comm gives out equal amount of HMGs and SG. Marines are forced to stick together with variation of weapons. 6) From here, the game depends on strategy. If aliens managed to get 2 hives up, marine will have a tough time. If marines managed to work together to take down the lifeforms, aliens will have a tough time.
To conclude, the main problem that the SG have is becuz it's an ALL-Rounder weapon. It doesn't only deal AWP damage to skulks. It also takes out a HUGE chuck of HP from all Lifeforms. In addition, the SG can do nice damage to structures too. My suggestion is limit the SG to certain lifeforms like how Flayra limit the damage to structures from the HMG. This will make games more challenging and exciting. Since some of you claim it's easier to take down HMG'er as Fade. This might be a bonus for you if you work together with an Onos by your side.
As stated in the FAQ: There wont be any realistic waepon physics. So we dont need to ask for it, anyway.
Back to SG and HMG. The SG is much more feared than the HMG cause you feel helpless against it. When fighting an HMG i can hear em start firing an often even react. Against an SG it is often enough "one shot=dead" and you cant do anything about it. If he hits you with his first shot you are dead and cant do anything about it. Its the helplessness that we all fear the SG for. The HMG will kill you in 7 bullets, if i am right. But thats 6 bullets, during which you can do smth against it.
With a SG it is just one shot dead and nothing; you just had no fair chance(at least i am feeling that way).
<!--QuoteBegin-Faskalia+Nov 1 2004, 03:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Faskalia @ Nov 1 2004, 03:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As stated in the FAQ: There wont be any realistic waepon physics. So we dont need to ask for it, anyway.
Back to SG and HMG. The SG is much more feared than the HMG cause you feel helpless against it. When fighting an HMG i can hear em start firing an often even react. Against an SG it is often enough "one shot=dead" and you cant do anything about it. If he hits you with his first shot you are dead and cant do anything about it. Its the helplessness that we all fear the SG for. The HMG will kill you in 7 bullets, if i am right. But thats 6 bullets, during which you can do smth against it.
With a SG it is just one shot dead and nothing; you just had no fair chance(at least i am feeling that way). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> How you "feel" has no place in a game of numbers.
Please quit these awful comparisions as it makes your argument even weaker.
<!--QuoteBegin-Faskalia+Nov 1 2004, 03:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Faskalia @ Nov 1 2004, 03:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As stated in the FAQ: There wont be any realistic waepon physics. So we dont need to ask for it, anyway.
Back to SG and HMG. The SG is much more feared than the HMG cause you feel helpless against it. When fighting an HMG i can hear em start firing an often even react. Against an SG it is often enough "one shot=dead" and you cant do anything about it. If he hits you with his first shot you are dead and cant do anything about it. Its the helplessness that we all fear the SG for. The HMG will kill you in 7 bullets, if i am right. But thats 6 bullets, during which you can do smth against it.
With a SG it is just one shot dead and nothing; you just had no fair chance(at least i am feeling that way). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but have you not notice why we keep talking about "How uber the FADE IS and How the 1 Hive Onos suck like hell"?
It's becuz there's no limitations to the SG. If you surround the Onos with 3 marines with level 2 damage SG. I can tell you, he is unable to run and kill all the SG'er. True fact is... HE WILL DIE!!! This is due to the early fix in the Onos gore area and the fact that to kill 1 level 1 armour marine takes 3 gores. After killing that Onos, maybe 1 or 2 of the marines will surive with 3 more SG shells in the clip. Bring it skulks!!! That's not right... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-kltower4+Nov 1 2004, 03:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kltower4 @ Nov 1 2004, 03:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Faskalia+Nov 1 2004, 03:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Faskalia @ Nov 1 2004, 03:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As stated in the FAQ: There wont be any realistic waepon physics. So we dont need to ask for it, anyway.
Back to SG and HMG. The SG is much more feared than the HMG cause you feel helpless against it. When fighting an HMG i can hear em start firing an often even react. Against an SG it is often enough "one shot=dead" and you cant do anything about it. If he hits you with his first shot you are dead and cant do anything about it. Its the helplessness that we all fear the SG for. The HMG will kill you in 7 bullets, if i am right. But thats 6 bullets, during which you can do smth against it.
With a SG it is just one shot dead and nothing; you just had no fair chance(at least i am feeling that way). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but have you not notice why we keep talking about "How uber the FADE IS and How the 1 Hive Onos suck like hell"?
It's becuz there's no limitations to the SG. If you surround the Onos with 3 marines with level 2 damage SG. I can tell you, he is unable to run and kill all the SG'er. True fact is... HE WILL DIE!!! This is due to the early fix in the Onos gore area and the fact that to kill 1 level 1 armour marine takes 3 gores. After killing that Onos, maybe 1 or 2 of the marines will surive with 3 more SG shells in the clip. Bring it skulks!!! That's not right... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A stupid Onos deserves to die anyways. Anyone whor es **** to 75 res and goes Onos while there isn't a second hive is probably very stupid indeed. No smart Onos would get into that situation, most likely because most smart Onos appear at hive2, where stomp is available.
The point is, no smart alien will leet himself get SURROUNDED by marines.
<!--QuoteBegin-|ds|meatshield+Nov 1 2004, 04:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Nov 1 2004, 04:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-kltower4+Nov 1 2004, 03:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kltower4 @ Nov 1 2004, 03:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Faskalia+Nov 1 2004, 03:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Faskalia @ Nov 1 2004, 03:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As stated in the FAQ: There wont be any realistic waepon physics. So we dont need to ask for it, anyway.
Back to SG and HMG. The SG is much more feared than the HMG cause you feel helpless against it. When fighting an HMG i can hear em start firing an often even react. Against an SG it is often enough "one shot=dead" and you cant do anything about it. If he hits you with his first shot you are dead and cant do anything about it. Its the helplessness that we all fear the SG for. The HMG will kill you in 7 bullets, if i am right. But thats 6 bullets, during which you can do smth against it.
With a SG it is just one shot dead and nothing; you just had no fair chance(at least i am feeling that way). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but have you not notice why we keep talking about "How uber the FADE IS and How the 1 Hive Onos suck like hell"?
It's becuz there's no limitations to the SG. If you surround the Onos with 3 marines with level 2 damage SG. I can tell you, he is unable to run and kill all the SG'er. True fact is... HE WILL DIE!!! This is due to the early fix in the Onos gore area and the fact that to kill 1 level 1 armour marine takes 3 gores. After killing that Onos, maybe 1 or 2 of the marines will surive with 3 more SG shells in the clip. Bring it skulks!!! That's not right... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A stupid Onos deserves to die anyways. Anyone whor es **** to 75 res and goes Onos while there isn't a second hive is probably very stupid indeed. No smart Onos would get into that situation, most likely because most smart Onos appear at hive2, where stomp is available.
The point is, no smart alien will leet himself get SURROUNDED by marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh, then you must be self-praising yourself then. With NS maps being very dynamic, a marines can come from all sides. It's not only a trick aliens have. That's how I kill Fades and Onos with either regen or redempt. Redempt being the easiest to kill.
Point is no matter how smart you are... 2 or more minds is better than your onos mind. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-kltower4+Nov 1 2004, 04:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kltower4 @ Nov 1 2004, 04:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-|ds|meatshield+Nov 1 2004, 04:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (|ds|meatshield @ Nov 1 2004, 04:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-kltower4+Nov 1 2004, 03:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kltower4 @ Nov 1 2004, 03:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Faskalia+Nov 1 2004, 03:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Faskalia @ Nov 1 2004, 03:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> As stated in the FAQ: There wont be any realistic waepon physics. So we dont need to ask for it, anyway.
Back to SG and HMG. The SG is much more feared than the HMG cause you feel helpless against it. When fighting an HMG i can hear em start firing an often even react. Against an SG it is often enough "one shot=dead" and you cant do anything about it. If he hits you with his first shot you are dead and cant do anything about it. Its the helplessness that we all fear the SG for. The HMG will kill you in 7 bullets, if i am right. But thats 6 bullets, during which you can do smth against it.
With a SG it is just one shot dead and nothing; you just had no fair chance(at least i am feeling that way). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but have you not notice why we keep talking about "How uber the FADE IS and How the 1 Hive Onos suck like hell"?
It's becuz there's no limitations to the SG. If you surround the Onos with 3 marines with level 2 damage SG. I can tell you, he is unable to run and kill all the SG'er. True fact is... HE WILL DIE!!! This is due to the early fix in the Onos gore area and the fact that to kill 1 level 1 armour marine takes 3 gores. After killing that Onos, maybe 1 or 2 of the marines will surive with 3 more SG shells in the clip. Bring it skulks!!! That's not right... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> A stupid Onos deserves to die anyways. Anyone whor es **** to 75 res and goes Onos while there isn't a second hive is probably very stupid indeed. No smart Onos would get into that situation, most likely because most smart Onos appear at hive2, where stomp is available.
The point is, no smart alien will leet himself get SURROUNDED by marines. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh, then you must be self-praising yourself then. With NS maps being very dynamic, a marines can come from all sides. It's not only a trick aliens have. That's how I kill Fades and Onos with either regen or redempt. Redempt being the easiest to kill.
Point is no matter how smart you are... 2 or more minds is better than your onos mind. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Are you one of those players who occasionally has that mentality of "don't shoot if there's too many skulks, hide in a corner and hope they don't notice me"
Just curious
And at lv 2 weps it's 4 HMG bullets to kill a skulk. You've got no reaction time there unless you're god, and even then it's about enough time to press a direction key for a fraction of a fraction of a second, or jump. Either way you're dead before any real harm is done, and he's got 121 more of those beasts ready to take down the entire alien team again and again.
SG- slower rate of fire, much more focused thus prone to swarming tactics
HMG- owns any alien providing there's just a wee bit of aiming done (and up close that's hardly nessacary)
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+Oct 31 2004, 06:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ Oct 31 2004, 06:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-d0omie+Oct 31 2004, 12:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (d0omie @ Oct 31 2004, 12:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Shotguns are much more dangerous than HMGs at long range, as long as the range is still withing the range of the shotgun. This is as HMG fires in a cone, whereas Shotgun doesn't spread out much at all, hitting exactly where those 10 pre-determined dots are on your crosshair. They go from full damage to 0 abover a certain range, which is why you can easily die to 2 shotgun shots at long range as a lerk. The shotgun pelletes shoud each do less damage with range, as a real shotgun does. A shotgun just isn't all that powerfull beyond 50m! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I can take a remmy, stand halfway accross a football field, aim 5 feet to your left, and blow your face off
If these shotgun's were "realistic" they'd have to become a hell of a lot stronger <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeh, then try what a heavy machine gun will do to you? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
If the group of marines have worked their **** off to surround me without me knowing, and used the environment to their benefit and managed to trap me in a bad position, then they deserve to kill me. Of course a smart onos makes that UNLIKELY to happen.
What YOU want is that even if the Onos were in the abovementioned position the Onos can still live. That's not right.
NGE: Nope, I'm those type who hides just right at a junction and hear food steps. Estimate how to close the marine is and before he can fire, I'll quickly deliver 2 bites to him. If lucky, 3 bite Straight in a row. I find myself talking out HMG'er easier with leap. However even with leap, SG can still do those 1 hit kill type.
|ds|meatshield: You have lost my point. I'm saying SG here. If you were surrounded by SG, you get more uber damage than a HMG due to the instant-gib damage. You have not read my post well, my friend. Of course, HMG is design to kill onos so I'm not touching anything on that cuz there's a structure damage limitation there. The only limitation the SG prosess is the range but I still see SG sniping. That's not right. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Weapon Characteristics now for the: HMG - do lots of damage to lifeforms (agreed) - do less damage to structures (from the days of 1.04 AGREED) - close to no range limitation (agreed) SG - do brust damage to lifeforms (hmmm... disagree) - do same brust damage to structures (agreed, give marines chance to take down hive ASAP) - range limitation (meelee enemies...hmmmm)
The problem with SG now is they are too easy to give (basic armoury) and that they do same brust damage to ALL lifeforms. That's why Hive 1 onos isn't very viable. They can't run away from a SG 3 men team quick enuf without stomp. With 2 hive lock down being more and more common these days, you can exprience a game with NO ONOS at all due to the superiority of the SG (nobody even wants to onos).
Actually eventho we discuss this, we can't change much in the SG except for the random pellets. Players will still love the instant-gib AWP concept. Also, with beta 6 (they claim it's final) around the corner. I doubt they want to do much anyway. I just hope they make the game less 1-men-marine-team base and fix the res system for small and LARGE games.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
Shotgun at range isn't good at all. It is only dangerous up close, which is why the HMg will always be superior.
The marines usually have the advantage at range right? Well, a marine equipped with a shotgun loses a lot of that advantage because he can pretty much do negligible damage at medium range, and zilch damage at long range. Most of the damage aliens get are during the time they try to run up to the marines anyways. With a weapon that can't deal decent damage past close range, the aliens should rejoice.
Look, I think, in its current form, a hive1 Onos SHOULD be slauhgtered if it is paired up against HALF the marine team (and 3 marines is half the marine team) because, let's face it. It's like 10 minutes into the game, the marines have gotten some upgraded, and you somehow still only have one hive. That meas you lose, and the res **** who saved up for Onos should die when if it's not smart and actually gets surrounded by half the marine with shotguns. At hive1, the aliens are not very teched up, so why should a medium tech unit (which a one hive onos is, if you think about it) be able to win against half of the other team with who are also outfited with medium tech? (upgraded shotgunners with some armor probably count as medium tech) It shouldn't. See, if the Onos were smart, he'd also bring along two skulk buddies. Suddenly, the battle is a hell of a lot more even, and the aliens would probably win. Instead of a 3v1, it's a 3v3 now. Wow! What a concept! If the mariens are using TEAMWORK and strategy to take down your Onos, you should ALSO use TEAMWORK and strategy to counter.
i'd feel better too if marines couldnt fire while jumping. well, sometimes they might need to jump and shoot so maybe a little pause in shooting for half a second while they land and "umpf" from their jump. i'd say something similar for fades coming out of blink to swipe. also, tone down both or neither. it's been pointed out rather effectively that both are dramatic turning points in a team's ability to make war. ...this does nothing to address sg sniping though, and i dont agree with pellets dissapearing after certain distance >_>
maybe there should be a greater difference in lvl0-1 sg and lvl 2-3. less rambo one-two reflex plugging but still viable group combined arms tactics to pick off straglers with lmg early. same ole powerhouse around fade/onus time.
QUOTE That's probably due to the fact that the HMG's damage is continuous over an extended period of time - giving lifeforms some time to react and either fight or flee. The shotgun provides an almost instagib effect to the 3 lower kharra lifeforms and, in a single blast, can remove a significant chunk of the health of the large lifeforms.
The Shotgun is much much easier to judge, as you know it only deals it's max damage when you are in a fairly enclosed area. Furthermore an HMG can do the instagib effect not only to skulks, but to lerks, gorges, and even fades, mind you all at distances or up close.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I find it much more difficult to tell how much damage a shotgunner is going to do to me when I am playing a higer lifeform. The HMG is far easier to determine in my opinion as - provided the marine can aim consistently - my health will drop at a steady rate. Your health won't drop at a predictable rate against a shotgunner unless the marine lands the same number of pellets each shot. The odds of that hapening are slim, as sometimes a marine will only shoot you with a few pellets and at other times he will land all 10.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And what's with the big use of words? "a single blast, can remove a significant chunk of the health of the large lifeforms." OF course it removes a chunk of their HP, it deals on average around 200 dmg. What's the point of wording it like that other than to somehow sway people to your argument's position ? Stick to the facts, please...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm sorry my use of english was too much for you to comprehed forlorn. My apologies. What I meant is that I find it difficult to guess how long it will take a person with a shotgun to kill me - a point we disagree on. I don't see how my wording of my argument would qualify it as fiction however.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In terms of numbers, HMG's kill 1-2 seconds faster than the shotgun does. The HMG is not continuous, it's steady and extremely fast. Did you know it only takes like 40 something HMG bullets to kill a fade, versus 4 shotgun shots? HMG's tear anything apart. It's essentially a railgun. 40 bullets out of 125 versus 4 shotgun shots, out of 8 total. Tell me again, which is the better anti-lifeform weapon?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Did I ever say the shotgun was better or worse than the HMG? I myself perfer using an HMG. I'm simply stating what I have experienced with the shotgun, both using it and being shot with it. Also, there are times when a shotgun is superior to the HMG. A prime example of this would be when a skulk or lerk races past you in less than a second - a HMG wouldn't be able to kill the creature, but a good shot with the shotgun would be able to do so.
<!--QuoteBegin-Dragon_Mech+Nov 9 2004, 01:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dragon_Mech @ Nov 9 2004, 01:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A prime example of this would be when a skulk or lerk races past you in less than a second - a HMG wouldn't be able to kill the creature, but a good shot with the shotgun would be able to do so. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The hmg deals more damage than the shotgun per second. All the hmger has to do is keep his crosshair on the skulk for .4 seconds, or on the lerk for about 1 second, while the shotgunner needs to land ALL his pellets on the skulk to kill it, and he needs to shoot the lerk at least twice.
<!--QuoteBegin-jesusfchrist+Nov 13 2004, 12:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (jesusfchrist @ Nov 13 2004, 12:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The hmg deals more damage than the shotgun per second. All the hmger has to do is keep his crosshair on the skulk for .4 seconds, or on the lerk for about 1 second, while the shotgunner needs to land ALL his pellets on the skulk to kill it, and he needs to shoot the lerk at least twice. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> True - provided you have near perfect accuracy for the entire time the creature is in your view - which is nearly impossible considering that skulks & lerks are small, fast and <i>designed</i> to be hard to hit. The shotgunner just needs one split second of accuracy on the other hand and the skulk or lerk is dead.
<!--QuoteBegin-Dragon_Mech+Nov 13 2004, 02:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dragon_Mech @ Nov 13 2004, 02:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-jesusfchrist+Nov 13 2004, 12:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (jesusfchrist @ Nov 13 2004, 12:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The hmg deals more damage than the shotgun per second. All the hmger has to do is keep his crosshair on the skulk for .4 seconds, or on the lerk for about 1 second, while the shotgunner needs to land ALL his pellets on the skulk to kill it, and he needs to shoot the lerk at least twice. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> True - provided you have near perfect accuracy for the entire time the creature is in your view - which is nearly impossible considering that skulks & lerks are small, fast and <i>designed</i> to be hard to hit. The shotgunner just needs one split second of accuracy on the other hand and the skulk or lerk is dead. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry mech, but good players are 2x better with the HMG than they are with the Shotgun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find it much more difficult to tell how much damage a shotgunner is going to do to me when I am playing a higer lifeform. The HMG is far easier to determine in my opinion as - provided the marine can aim consistently - my health will drop at a steady rate. Your health won't drop at a predictable rate against a shotgunner unless the marine lands the same number of pellets each shot. The odds of that hapening are slim, as sometimes a marine will only shoot you with a few pellets and at other times he will land all 10.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because you "find" it easier, doesn't mean it actually is. This is a game, and it is a game of numbers sometimes. I'll tell you right now that the HMG is 2x as good than the shotgun.
If you have experenced the shotgun harder to fight against, then you aren't experiencing enough IMO.
<!--QuoteBegin-Dragon_Mech+Nov 13 2004, 11:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dragon_Mech @ Nov 13 2004, 11:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-jesusfchrist+Nov 13 2004, 12:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (jesusfchrist @ Nov 13 2004, 12:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The hmg deals more damage than the shotgun per second. All the hmger has to do is keep his crosshair on the skulk for .4 seconds, or on the lerk for about 1 second, while the shotgunner needs to land ALL his pellets on the skulk to kill it, and he needs to shoot the lerk at least twice. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> True - provided you have near perfect accuracy for the entire time the creature is in your view - which is nearly impossible considering that skulks & lerks are small, fast and <i>designed</i> to be hard to hit. The shotgunner just needs one split second of accuracy on the other hand and the skulk or lerk is dead. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> what... if you can kill a skulk or lerk leaping/flying past you with a shotgun, you could do it 2x easier with an hmg. period.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Nov 13 2004, 09:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 13 2004, 09:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Dragon_Mech+Nov 13 2004, 02:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dragon_Mech @ Nov 13 2004, 02:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-jesusfchrist+Nov 13 2004, 12:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (jesusfchrist @ Nov 13 2004, 12:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The hmg deals more damage than the shotgun per second. All the hmger has to do is keep his crosshair on the skulk for .4 seconds, or on the lerk for about 1 second, while the shotgunner needs to land ALL his pellets on the skulk to kill it, and he needs to shoot the lerk at least twice. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> True - provided you have near perfect accuracy for the entire time the creature is in your view - which is nearly impossible considering that skulks & lerks are small, fast and <i>designed</i> to be hard to hit. The shotgunner just needs one split second of accuracy on the other hand and the skulk or lerk is dead. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry mech, but good players are 2x better with the HMG than they are with the Shotgun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find it much more difficult to tell how much damage a shotgunner is going to do to me when I am playing a higer lifeform. The HMG is far easier to determine in my opinion as - provided the marine can aim consistently - my health will drop at a steady rate. Your health won't drop at a predictable rate against a shotgunner unless the marine lands the same number of pellets each shot. The odds of that hapening are slim, as sometimes a marine will only shoot you with a few pellets and at other times he will land all 10.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because you "find" it easier, doesn't mean it actually is. This is a game, and it is a game of numbers sometimes. I'll tell you right now that the HMG is 2x as good than the shotgun.
If you have experenced the shotgun harder to fight against, then you aren't experiencing enough IMO. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry Forlon, but this does not cover everthing that needs to be considered, when comparing hmg to sg.
Damage per second wise the hmg outperformes the sg anyday, but:
-The minimum time to kill a skulk/lerk is mucher lower for the sg than for the hmg. -The sg reload system is much better that the hmg ones and allows you to manage your ammo more efficently. -You can inflict more damage with a fully loaded sg than with an hmg
-Saying that all good players are 2x better with the hmg than with the sg is not entirely true. I considere myself a good player and holding a sg gives me a much safer feeling than wielding an hmg, since a skulk wont catch me with my pants down (aka reloading).
<!--QuoteBegin-jesusfchrist+Nov 14 2004, 12:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (jesusfchrist @ Nov 14 2004, 12:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Dragon_Mech+Nov 13 2004, 11:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dragon_Mech @ Nov 13 2004, 11:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-jesusfchrist+Nov 13 2004, 12:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (jesusfchrist @ Nov 13 2004, 12:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The hmg deals more damage than the shotgun per second. All the hmger has to do is keep his crosshair on the skulk for .4 seconds, or on the lerk for about 1 second, while the shotgunner needs to land ALL his pellets on the skulk to kill it, and he needs to shoot the lerk at least twice. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> True - provided you have near perfect accuracy for the entire time the creature is in your view - which is nearly impossible considering that skulks & lerks are small, fast and <i>designed</i> to be hard to hit. The shotgunner just needs one split second of accuracy on the other hand and the skulk or lerk is dead. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> what... if you can kill a skulk or lerk leaping/flying past you with a shotgun, you could do it 2x easier with an hmg. period. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well:
When you are able to follow a leaping cele skulk perfectly, then why do you need an hmg. The pistol should be much better for this.
How to aim at moving targets, correctly? (accoridng to the german army)
Here it comes: You aim at a position, that your target is likely to cross in the next 2 seconds. Once you got him just pull the trigger.
This makes aiming much easier, cause you dont have to deal with 2 moving objects. (your target and your sight)
The same is true for any FPS: Shooting at a non moving target while not moving is the easiest. Shooting at a moving target while standing still is tied up with shooting at a stationary target while moving. Shooting at a moving target while moving yourself is the hardest.
The SG allows you to concentrate on your target. You dont need to think about your aim for a peroid longer than half a second. Why was the railging in q3 so great? For the same reason. The SG is some kind of short range railgun vs skulks and lerks. It is pretty strong and does not require to keep a constant track of your target.
<!--QuoteBegin-Faskalia+Nov 13 2004, 06:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Faskalia @ Nov 13 2004, 06:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Nov 13 2004, 09:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 13 2004, 09:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Dragon_Mech+Nov 13 2004, 02:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dragon_Mech @ Nov 13 2004, 02:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-jesusfchrist+Nov 13 2004, 12:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (jesusfchrist @ Nov 13 2004, 12:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The hmg deals more damage than the shotgun per second. All the hmger has to do is keep his crosshair on the skulk for .4 seconds, or on the lerk for about 1 second, while the shotgunner needs to land ALL his pellets on the skulk to kill it, and he needs to shoot the lerk at least twice. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> True - provided you have near perfect accuracy for the entire time the creature is in your view - which is nearly impossible considering that skulks & lerks are small, fast and <i>designed</i> to be hard to hit. The shotgunner just needs one split second of accuracy on the other hand and the skulk or lerk is dead. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry mech, but good players are 2x better with the HMG than they are with the Shotgun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find it much more difficult to tell how much damage a shotgunner is going to do to me when I am playing a higer lifeform. The HMG is far easier to determine in my opinion as - provided the marine can aim consistently - my health will drop at a steady rate. Your health won't drop at a predictable rate against a shotgunner unless the marine lands the same number of pellets each shot. The odds of that hapening are slim, as sometimes a marine will only shoot you with a few pellets and at other times he will land all 10.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because you "find" it easier, doesn't mean it actually is. This is a game, and it is a game of numbers sometimes. I'll tell you right now that the HMG is 2x as good than the shotgun.
If you have experenced the shotgun harder to fight against, then you aren't experiencing enough IMO. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry Forlon, but this does not cover everthing that needs to be considered, when comparing hmg to sg.
Damage per second wise the hmg outperformes the sg anyday, but:
-The minimum time to kill a skulk/lerk is mucher lower for the sg than for the hmg. -The sg reload system is much better that the hmg ones and allows you to manage your ammo more efficently. -You can inflict more damage with a fully loaded sg than with an hmg
-Saying that all good players are 2x better with the hmg than with the sg is not entirely true. I considere myself a good player and holding a sg gives me a much safer feeling than wielding an hmg, since a skulk wont catch me with my pants down (aka reloading). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> 1. HMG kills lerk or skulk faster than SG does, HMG has much longer range 2. Start reloading with 40 or lower bullets 3. Start reloading with 40 or lower bullets so you can switch to your pistol and back to the HMG and kill the skulk 4. HMG deals more per clip to lifeforms than the SG does, but the HMG sucks against structures
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Nov 14 2004, 01:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 14 2004, 01:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1. HMG kills lerk or skulk faster than SG does, HMG has much longer range 2. Start reloading with 40 or lower bullets 3. Start reloading with 40 or lower bullets so you can switch to your pistol and back to the HMG and kill the skulk 4. HMG deals more per clip to lifeforms than the SG does, but the HMG sucks against structures <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> re1 Killing a skulk/lerk with sg takes about 60ms for sever recognition, tracking it with your hmg up to half a second +60ms for server recognition (against multiple targets the hmg can be superior)
re2/3 thats personal oppion, which i do respect
re4 i didnt say per clip, but fully loaded: thats 6*8*10 pellets vs 3*125 bullets
<!--QuoteBegin-Faskalia+Nov 13 2004, 06:43 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Faskalia @ Nov 13 2004, 06:43 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Nov 14 2004, 01:35 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 14 2004, 01:35 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1. HMG kills lerk or skulk faster than SG does, HMG has much longer range 2. Start reloading with 40 or lower bullets 3. Start reloading with 40 or lower bullets so you can switch to your pistol and back to the HMG and kill the skulk 4. HMG deals more per clip to lifeforms than the SG does, but the HMG sucks against structures <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> re1 Killing a skulk/lerk with sg takes about 60ms for sever recognition, tracking it with your hmg up to half a second +60ms for server recognition (against multiple targets the hmg can be superior)
re2/3 thats personal oppion, which i do respect
re4 i didnt say per clip, but fully loaded: thats 6*8*10 pellets vs 3*125 bullets
5 sg is cheaper (res wise) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> 1. The HMG will kill the skulk faster in most cases because you can shoot at the skulk sooner than you could with the SG
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->re4 i didnt say per clip, but fully loaded: thats 6*8*10 pellets vs 3*125 bullets<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually isn't it
(6 clips)*(8 shells per clip)*(10 pellets)*(17 dmg a pellet) = 8160
vs
(3 clips)*(125 bullets)*(20 per bullet) = 7500
It's not much of a difference when you consider for one res you get 125 more bullets for the HMG as opposed to 8 shells for the SG
The HMG is more expensive to deploy but cheaper to maintain, SG is cheap to deploy but expensive to maintain
<!--QuoteBegin-Faskalia+Nov 13 2004, 03:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Faskalia @ Nov 13 2004, 03:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-jesusfchrist+Nov 14 2004, 12:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (jesusfchrist @ Nov 14 2004, 12:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Dragon_Mech+Nov 13 2004, 11:45 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dragon_Mech @ Nov 13 2004, 11:45 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-jesusfchrist+Nov 13 2004, 12:49 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (jesusfchrist @ Nov 13 2004, 12:49 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The hmg deals more damage than the shotgun per second. All the hmger has to do is keep his crosshair on the skulk for .4 seconds, or on the lerk for about 1 second, while the shotgunner needs to land ALL his pellets on the skulk to kill it, and he needs to shoot the lerk at least twice. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> True - provided you have near perfect accuracy for the entire time the creature is in your view - which is nearly impossible considering that skulks & lerks are small, fast and <i>designed</i> to be hard to hit. The shotgunner just needs one split second of accuracy on the other hand and the skulk or lerk is dead. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> what... if you can kill a skulk or lerk leaping/flying past you with a shotgun, you could do it 2x easier with an hmg. period. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well:
When you are able to follow a leaping cele skulk perfectly, then why do you need an hmg. The pistol should be much better for this.
How to aim at moving targets, correctly? (accoridng to the german army)
Here it comes: You aim at a position, that your target is likely to cross in the next 2 seconds. Once you got him just pull the trigger.
This makes aiming much easier, cause you dont have to deal with 2 moving objects. (your target and your sight)
The same is true for any FPS: Shooting at a non moving target while not moving is the easiest. Shooting at a moving target while standing still is tied up with shooting at a stationary target while moving. Shooting at a moving target while moving yourself is the hardest.
The SG allows you to concentrate on your target. You dont need to think about your aim for a peroid longer than half a second. Why was the railging in q3 so great? For the same reason. The SG is some kind of short range railgun vs skulks and lerks. It is pretty strong and does not require to keep a constant track of your target. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok look, do you know how much damage the hmg does? To kill a skulk, YOU ONLY NEED TO KEEP YOUR XHAIR ON IT FOR HALF A SECOND. Plus, unlike the shotgun, it gives you another chance if you miss.
Oh and, most average players who can't hit a moving target while moving probably can't shoot at a leaping skulk or lerk. If you're able to do that with a shotgun, you'll be more than able to do it with an hmg.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The HMG is more expensive to deploy but cheaper to maintain, <b>SG is cheap to maintain but expensive to maintain</b> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Prooving, once and for all, that you're making it up as you go along. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Unfortunately for the HMG proponents, remember that the premise of this thread is the SG's effectiveness at close range.
At long ranges and throughout general play, yes, the HMG is superior.
At close range, which is what this thread is about, the SG is superior, because it allows the insta-gib of skulks and kills lerks very slightly quicker then a well-aimed HMG at the same close range.
Should the SG, the cheapest weapon available beyond what you spawn with, be as good or better than the more expensive weapons <i>at close range fighting</i> -- an area that's supposedly the other race's specialty?
I'm not arguing balance or anything like that.. I tend to believe that it's fairly well balanced. I'm just talking about the philosophy of it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Nov 13 2004, 08:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Nov 13 2004, 08:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Unfortunately for the HMG proponents, remember that the premise of this thread is the SG's effectiveness at close range.
At long ranges and throughout general play, yes, the HMG is superior.
At close range, which is what this thread is about, the SG is superior, because it allows the insta-gib of skulks and kills lerks very slightly quicker then a well-aimed HMG at the same close range.
Should the SG, the cheapest weapon available beyond what you spawn with, be as good or better than the more expensive weapons <i>at close range fighting</i> -- an area that's supposedly the other race's specialty?
I'm not arguing balance or anything like that.. I tend to believe that it's fairly well balanced. I'm just talking about the philosophy of it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, the SG can still be surrived for as you run away you can live due to the SG losing effectiveness with range
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Nov 13 2004, 09:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 13 2004, 09:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Nov 13 2004, 08:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Nov 13 2004, 08:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Should the SG, the cheapest weapon available beyond what you spawn with, be as good or better than the more expensive weapons <i>at close range fighting</i> -- an area that's supposedly the other race's specialty?
I'm not arguing balance or anything like that.. I tend to believe that it's fairly well balanced. I'm just talking about the philosophy of it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, the SG can still be surrived for as you run away you can live due to the SG losing effectiveness with range. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> And again, you're missing the entire point. If you've run away, then you're no longer at "close range", are you? If you're not at close range, then you're not talking about the question raised in this thread.
Would you also agree that the GL has a larger drawback (assuming FF is on) <i>at close range</i> than the shotgun does?
Now will you also agree that the HMG takes more time to kill lower lifeforms <i>at close range</i> than the shotgun does?
If we agree on these, then you agree with me that when it comes to the very specific circumstance of being <i>at close range</i>, the SG is the better weapon.
The question isn't "is the SG balanced?" I'm not arguing that. I think it is. The question isn't "is the SG the better overall weapon for a marine?" I'm not arguing that. I think it isn't. The question being asked is "Should the cheap, easily available weapon be the one that is the best at close range?"
<!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Nov 13 2004, 11:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Nov 13 2004, 11:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+Nov 13 2004, 09:19 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ Nov 13 2004, 09:19 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+Nov 13 2004, 08:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ Nov 13 2004, 08:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Should the SG, the cheapest weapon available beyond what you spawn with, be as good or better than the more expensive weapons <i>at close range fighting</i> -- an area that's supposedly the other race's specialty?
I'm not arguing balance or anything like that.. I tend to believe that it's fairly well balanced. I'm just talking about the philosophy of it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, the SG can still be surrived for as you run away you can live due to the SG losing effectiveness with range. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> And again, you're missing the entire point. If you've run away, then you're no longer at "close range", are you? If you're not at close range, then you're not talking about the question raised in this thread.
Would you also agree that the GL has a larger drawback (assuming FF is on) <i>at close range</i> than the shotgun does?
Now will you also agree that the HMG takes more time to kill lower lifeforms <i>at close range</i> than the shotgun does?
If we agree on these, then you agree with me that when it comes to the very specific circumstance of being <i>at close range</i>, the SG is the better weapon.
The question isn't "is the SG balanced?" I'm not arguing that. I think it is. The question isn't "is the SG the better overall weapon for a marine?" I'm not arguing that. I think it isn't. The question being asked is "Should the cheap, easily available weapon be the one that is the best at close range?" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No.. you miss the point.
Because the SG is worse at longer ranges it is underpowered in that aspect as they are unable to finish off retreating lifeforms easily
Therefore it's a huge limit
Aliens have range in the aspect that they have speed
a) the marine has a shotgun The marine will manage to hit three straight shots, one while blinking in, one close up and one while blinking out.
b) the marine has a hmg The fade will not be able to get in close at all, since his health will drop alot during the first half second he has shown himself, and he has to turn and regen.
If you miss with a sg you are dead, if you miss with the hmg, you still have another 120 bullets to spray without any delay, after a small adjustment in tracking.
If the sg is very powerful up close, then so is the hmg because unlike the shotgun the hmg doesnt have any range limitations.
[Edit]If I get a shotgun during a competetive game I say "yay, now I'm immune to single skulks, AND I can get rts down quicker".
If I get a hmg during a competetive game I say "yay, now I'm immune to any number of skulks, a single lerk +1-2 skulks or a single fade... all I need to worry about is if a fade+ several other lifeforms rush me".
Seriously, taking down four skulks isnt with a hmg isnt uncommon, while the same thing is close to impossible with a sg.
Comments
lmg should be effective to - skulks, gorges, lerks
SG should be effective to - skulks, gorges, lerks (if close range), fades
HMG should be effective to - skulks, gorges, lerks, fades, onos
Why I feel that SG shouldn't damage the Onos that much is due to the nature of the SG. We all know ONOS have a thick armour and SG uses small pellets. Looking at it in a CSI way, just say you take a thick metal sheet and fire the SG on it. The pellets doesn't quite go thru. However if you take a HMG (armour penetrating rounds) and fire it on the metal sheet. The bullets will go thru.
Let's apply this to the typical game itself. The Fade now is the chioce of most good players instead of the ONOS even if the onos cost another mere 25 res more. Why? Becuz they can blink out quick enuf and blink in fast enuf to deal damage. Being so... In order to kill that Fade quickly, SG are the most effective becuz it does instant HUGE damage to that lifeform with minimum effort. If the fade didn't pay attention to his health, he will most likely die. Added to that instant huge damage concept, the SG also does the same thing to ONOS. Therefore, this is why Onos is very seldom used in classic games unless you have 2 hives. Hence the name PAPER ONOS!!!
If my ideas was implemented into the game, the game will go something like this.
1) Games starts. Marines rush out to cap rts. Alien cap maybe 1 or 2 more rts and the rest skulk to ambush marines.
2) Marine will hold 6~7 rts within the first 6mins of the game with aliens controlling only 2~3 rts. Thus allowing marines to get upgrades FAST.
3) Marine now focus their attack on aliens rts and the aliens themselves. Aliens needs to push them back with 1 or 2 Fades.
4) To counter the Fades, comm gives SGs and allow the team attempts to kill the Fade. Fades now play cautiously and tries to take out the SG'er 1 by 1. The skulks change their roles from marine hunter to rt hunters.
5) Now the rts control is 50/50. Onos appears and takes out the SG'er like playthings. To counter, comm gives out HMGs but not to everyone cuz there are still fades running around. Comm gives out equal amount of HMGs and SG. Marines are forced to stick together with variation of weapons.
6) From here, the game depends on strategy. If aliens managed to get 2 hives up, marine will have a tough time. If marines managed to work together to take down the lifeforms, aliens will have a tough time.
To conclude, the main problem that the SG have is becuz it's an ALL-Rounder weapon. It doesn't only deal AWP damage to skulks. It also takes out a HUGE chuck of HP from all Lifeforms. In addition, the SG can do nice damage to structures too. My suggestion is limit the SG to certain lifeforms like how Flayra limit the damage to structures from the HMG. This will make games more challenging and exciting. Since some of you claim it's easier to take down HMG'er as Fade. This might be a bonus for you if you work together with an Onos by your side.
Back to SG and HMG. The SG is much more feared than the HMG cause you feel helpless against it. When fighting an HMG i can hear em start firing an often even react. Against an SG it is often enough "one shot=dead" and you cant do anything about it. If he hits you with his first shot you are dead and cant do anything about it. Its the helplessness that we all fear the SG for. The HMG will kill you in 7 bullets, if i am right. But thats 6 bullets, during which you can do smth against it.
With a SG it is just one shot dead and nothing; you just had no fair chance(at least i am feeling that way).
Back to SG and HMG. The SG is much more feared than the HMG cause you feel helpless against it. When fighting an HMG i can hear em start firing an often even react. Against an SG it is often enough "one shot=dead" and you cant do anything about it. If he hits you with his first shot you are dead and cant do anything about it. Its the helplessness that we all fear the SG for. The HMG will kill you in 7 bullets, if i am right. But thats 6 bullets, during which you can do smth against it.
With a SG it is just one shot dead and nothing; you just had no fair chance(at least i am feeling that way). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
How you "feel" has no place in a game of numbers.
Please quit these awful comparisions as it makes your argument even weaker.
Back to SG and HMG. The SG is much more feared than the HMG cause you feel helpless against it. When fighting an HMG i can hear em start firing an often even react. Against an SG it is often enough "one shot=dead" and you cant do anything about it. If he hits you with his first shot you are dead and cant do anything about it. Its the helplessness that we all fear the SG for. The HMG will kill you in 7 bullets, if i am right. But thats 6 bullets, during which you can do smth against it.
With a SG it is just one shot dead and nothing; you just had no fair chance(at least i am feeling that way). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but have you not notice why we keep talking about "How uber the FADE IS and How the 1 Hive Onos suck like hell"?
It's becuz there's no limitations to the SG. If you surround the Onos with 3 marines with level 2 damage SG. I can tell you, he is unable to run and kill all the SG'er. True fact is... HE WILL DIE!!! This is due to the early fix in the Onos gore area and the fact that to kill 1 level 1 armour marine takes 3 gores. After killing that Onos, maybe 1 or 2 of the marines will surive with 3 more SG shells in the clip. Bring it skulks!!! That's not right... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Back to SG and HMG. The SG is much more feared than the HMG cause you feel helpless against it. When fighting an HMG i can hear em start firing an often even react. Against an SG it is often enough "one shot=dead" and you cant do anything about it. If he hits you with his first shot you are dead and cant do anything about it. Its the helplessness that we all fear the SG for. The HMG will kill you in 7 bullets, if i am right. But thats 6 bullets, during which you can do smth against it.
With a SG it is just one shot dead and nothing; you just had no fair chance(at least i am feeling that way). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but have you not notice why we keep talking about "How uber the FADE IS and How the 1 Hive Onos suck like hell"?
It's becuz there's no limitations to the SG. If you surround the Onos with 3 marines with level 2 damage SG. I can tell you, he is unable to run and kill all the SG'er. True fact is... HE WILL DIE!!! This is due to the early fix in the Onos gore area and the fact that to kill 1 level 1 armour marine takes 3 gores. After killing that Onos, maybe 1 or 2 of the marines will surive with 3 more SG shells in the clip. Bring it skulks!!! That's not right... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
A stupid Onos deserves to die anyways. Anyone whor es **** to 75 res and goes Onos while there isn't a second hive is probably very stupid indeed. No smart Onos would get into that situation, most likely because most smart Onos appear at hive2, where stomp is available.
The point is, no smart alien will leet himself get SURROUNDED by marines.
Back to SG and HMG. The SG is much more feared than the HMG cause you feel helpless against it. When fighting an HMG i can hear em start firing an often even react. Against an SG it is often enough "one shot=dead" and you cant do anything about it. If he hits you with his first shot you are dead and cant do anything about it. Its the helplessness that we all fear the SG for. The HMG will kill you in 7 bullets, if i am right. But thats 6 bullets, during which you can do smth against it.
With a SG it is just one shot dead and nothing; you just had no fair chance(at least i am feeling that way). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but have you not notice why we keep talking about "How uber the FADE IS and How the 1 Hive Onos suck like hell"?
It's becuz there's no limitations to the SG. If you surround the Onos with 3 marines with level 2 damage SG. I can tell you, he is unable to run and kill all the SG'er. True fact is... HE WILL DIE!!! This is due to the early fix in the Onos gore area and the fact that to kill 1 level 1 armour marine takes 3 gores. After killing that Onos, maybe 1 or 2 of the marines will surive with 3 more SG shells in the clip. Bring it skulks!!! That's not right... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A stupid Onos deserves to die anyways. Anyone whor es **** to 75 res and goes Onos while there isn't a second hive is probably very stupid indeed. No smart Onos would get into that situation, most likely because most smart Onos appear at hive2, where stomp is available.
The point is, no smart alien will leet himself get SURROUNDED by marines. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, then you must be self-praising yourself then. With NS maps being very dynamic, a marines can come from all sides. It's not only a trick aliens have. That's how I kill Fades and Onos with either regen or redempt. Redempt being the easiest to kill.
Point is no matter how smart you are... 2 or more minds is better than your onos mind. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Back to SG and HMG. The SG is much more feared than the HMG cause you feel helpless against it. When fighting an HMG i can hear em start firing an often even react. Against an SG it is often enough "one shot=dead" and you cant do anything about it. If he hits you with his first shot you are dead and cant do anything about it. Its the helplessness that we all fear the SG for. The HMG will kill you in 7 bullets, if i am right. But thats 6 bullets, during which you can do smth against it.
With a SG it is just one shot dead and nothing; you just had no fair chance(at least i am feeling that way). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, but have you not notice why we keep talking about "How uber the FADE IS and How the 1 Hive Onos suck like hell"?
It's becuz there's no limitations to the SG. If you surround the Onos with 3 marines with level 2 damage SG. I can tell you, he is unable to run and kill all the SG'er. True fact is... HE WILL DIE!!! This is due to the early fix in the Onos gore area and the fact that to kill 1 level 1 armour marine takes 3 gores. After killing that Onos, maybe 1 or 2 of the marines will surive with 3 more SG shells in the clip. Bring it skulks!!! That's not right... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
A stupid Onos deserves to die anyways. Anyone whor es **** to 75 res and goes Onos while there isn't a second hive is probably very stupid indeed. No smart Onos would get into that situation, most likely because most smart Onos appear at hive2, where stomp is available.
The point is, no smart alien will leet himself get SURROUNDED by marines. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Oh, then you must be self-praising yourself then. With NS maps being very dynamic, a marines can come from all sides. It's not only a trick aliens have. That's how I kill Fades and Onos with either regen or redempt. Redempt being the easiest to kill.
Point is no matter how smart you are... 2 or more minds is better than your onos mind. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Are you one of those players who occasionally has that mentality of "don't shoot if there's too many skulks, hide in a corner and hope they don't notice me"
Just curious
And at lv 2 weps it's 4 HMG bullets to kill a skulk. You've got no reaction time there unless you're god, and even then it's about enough time to press a direction key for a fraction of a fraction of a second, or jump. Either way you're dead before any real harm is done, and he's got 121 more of those beasts ready to take down the entire alien team again and again.
SG- slower rate of fire, much more focused thus prone to swarming tactics
HMG- owns any alien providing there's just a wee bit of aiming done (and up close that's hardly nessacary)
I can take a remmy, stand halfway accross a football field, aim 5 feet to your left, and blow your face off
If these shotgun's were "realistic" they'd have to become a hell of a lot stronger <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeh, then try what a heavy machine gun will do to you? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
What YOU want is that even if the Onos were in the abovementioned position the Onos can still live. That's not right.
|ds|meatshield: You have lost my point. I'm saying SG here. If you were surrounded by SG, you get more uber damage than a HMG due to the instant-gib damage. You have not read my post well, my friend. Of course, HMG is design to kill onos so I'm not touching anything on that cuz there's a structure damage limitation there. The only limitation the SG prosess is the range but I still see SG sniping. That's not right. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Weapon Characteristics now for the:
HMG
- do lots of damage to lifeforms (agreed)
- do less damage to structures (from the days of 1.04 AGREED)
- close to no range limitation (agreed)
SG
- do brust damage to lifeforms (hmmm... disagree)
- do same brust damage to structures (agreed, give marines chance to take down hive ASAP)
- range limitation (meelee enemies...hmmmm)
The problem with SG now is they are too easy to give (basic armoury) and that they do same brust damage to ALL lifeforms. That's why Hive 1 onos isn't very viable. They can't run away from a SG 3 men team quick enuf without stomp. With 2 hive lock down being more and more common these days, you can exprience a game with NO ONOS at all due to the superiority of the SG (nobody even wants to onos).
Actually eventho we discuss this, we can't change much in the SG except for the random pellets. Players will still love the instant-gib AWP concept. Also, with beta 6 (they claim it's final) around the corner. I doubt they want to do much anyway. I just hope they make the game less 1-men-marine-team base and fix the res system for small and LARGE games.
The marines usually have the advantage at range right? Well, a marine equipped with a shotgun loses a lot of that advantage because he can pretty much do negligible damage at medium range, and zilch damage at long range. Most of the damage aliens get are during the time they try to run up to the marines anyways. With a weapon that can't deal decent damage past close range, the aliens should rejoice.
Look, I think, in its current form, a hive1 Onos SHOULD be slauhgtered if it is paired up against HALF the marine team (and 3 marines is half the marine team) because, let's face it. It's like 10 minutes into the game, the marines have gotten some upgraded, and you somehow still only have one hive. That meas you lose, and the res **** who saved up for Onos should die when if it's not smart and actually gets surrounded by half the marine with shotguns. At hive1, the aliens are not very teched up, so why should a medium tech unit (which a one hive onos is, if you think about it) be able to win against half of the other team with who are also outfited with medium tech? (upgraded shotgunners with some armor probably count as medium tech) It shouldn't. See, if the Onos were smart, he'd also bring along two skulk buddies. Suddenly, the battle is a hell of a lot more even, and the aliens would probably win. Instead of a 3v1, it's a 3v3 now. Wow! What a concept! If the mariens are using TEAMWORK and strategy to take down your Onos, you should ALSO use TEAMWORK and strategy to counter.
maybe there should be a greater difference in lvl0-1 sg and lvl 2-3. less rambo one-two reflex plugging but still viable group combined arms tactics to pick off straglers with lmg early. same ole powerhouse around fade/onus time.
QUOTE
That's probably due to the fact that the HMG's damage is continuous over an extended period of time - giving lifeforms some time to react and either fight or flee. The shotgun provides an almost instagib effect to the 3 lower kharra lifeforms and, in a single blast, can remove a significant chunk of the health of the large lifeforms.
The Shotgun is much much easier to judge, as you know it only deals it's max damage when you are in a fairly enclosed area. Furthermore an HMG can do the instagib effect not only to skulks, but to lerks, gorges, and even fades, mind you all at distances or up close.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I find it much more difficult to tell how much damage a shotgunner is going to do to me when I am playing a higer lifeform. The HMG is far easier to determine in my opinion as - provided the marine can aim consistently - my health will drop at a steady rate. Your health won't drop at a predictable rate against a shotgunner unless the marine lands the same number of pellets each shot. The odds of that hapening are slim, as sometimes a marine will only shoot you with a few pellets and at other times he will land all 10.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And what's with the big use of words? "a single blast, can remove a significant chunk of the health of the large lifeforms." OF course it removes a chunk of their HP, it deals on average around 200 dmg. What's the point of wording it like that other than to somehow sway people to your argument's position ? Stick to the facts, please...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I'm sorry my use of english was too much for you to comprehed forlorn. My apologies. What I meant is that I find it difficult to guess how long it will take a person with a shotgun to kill me - a point we disagree on. I don't see how my wording of my argument would qualify it as fiction however.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In terms of numbers, HMG's kill 1-2 seconds faster than the shotgun does. The HMG is not continuous, it's steady and extremely fast. Did you know it only takes like 40 something HMG bullets to kill a fade, versus 4 shotgun shots? HMG's tear anything apart. It's essentially a railgun. 40 bullets out of 125 versus 4 shotgun shots, out of 8 total. Tell me again, which is the better anti-lifeform weapon?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Did I ever say the shotgun was better or worse than the HMG? I myself perfer using an HMG. I'm simply stating what I have experienced with the shotgun, both using it and being shot with it. Also, there are times when a shotgun is superior to the HMG. A prime example of this would be when a skulk or lerk races past you in less than a second - a HMG wouldn't be able to kill the creature, but a good shot with the shotgun would be able to do so.
The hmg deals more damage than the shotgun per second. All the hmger has to do is keep his crosshair on the skulk for .4 seconds, or on the lerk for about 1 second, while the shotgunner needs to land ALL his pellets on the skulk to kill it, and he needs to shoot the lerk at least twice.
True - provided you have near perfect accuracy for the entire time the creature is in your view - which is nearly impossible considering that skulks & lerks are small, fast and <i>designed</i> to be hard to hit. The shotgunner just needs one split second of accuracy on the other hand and the skulk or lerk is dead.
True - provided you have near perfect accuracy for the entire time the creature is in your view - which is nearly impossible considering that skulks & lerks are small, fast and <i>designed</i> to be hard to hit. The shotgunner just needs one split second of accuracy on the other hand and the skulk or lerk is dead. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry mech, but good players are 2x better with the HMG than they are with the Shotgun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find it much more difficult to tell how much damage a shotgunner is going to do to me when I am playing a higer lifeform. The HMG is far easier to determine in my opinion as - provided the marine can aim consistently - my health will drop at a steady rate. Your health won't drop at a predictable rate against a shotgunner unless the marine lands the same number of pellets each shot. The odds of that hapening are slim, as sometimes a marine will only shoot you with a few pellets and at other times he will land all 10.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because you "find" it easier, doesn't mean it actually is. This is a game, and it is a game of numbers sometimes. I'll tell you right now that the HMG is 2x as good than the shotgun.
If you have experenced the shotgun harder to fight against, then you aren't experiencing enough IMO.
True - provided you have near perfect accuracy for the entire time the creature is in your view - which is nearly impossible considering that skulks & lerks are small, fast and <i>designed</i> to be hard to hit. The shotgunner just needs one split second of accuracy on the other hand and the skulk or lerk is dead. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
what... if you can kill a skulk or lerk leaping/flying past you with a shotgun, you could do it 2x easier with an hmg. period.
True - provided you have near perfect accuracy for the entire time the creature is in your view - which is nearly impossible considering that skulks & lerks are small, fast and <i>designed</i> to be hard to hit. The shotgunner just needs one split second of accuracy on the other hand and the skulk or lerk is dead. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry mech, but good players are 2x better with the HMG than they are with the Shotgun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find it much more difficult to tell how much damage a shotgunner is going to do to me when I am playing a higer lifeform. The HMG is far easier to determine in my opinion as - provided the marine can aim consistently - my health will drop at a steady rate. Your health won't drop at a predictable rate against a shotgunner unless the marine lands the same number of pellets each shot. The odds of that hapening are slim, as sometimes a marine will only shoot you with a few pellets and at other times he will land all 10.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because you "find" it easier, doesn't mean it actually is. This is a game, and it is a game of numbers sometimes. I'll tell you right now that the HMG is 2x as good than the shotgun.
If you have experenced the shotgun harder to fight against, then you aren't experiencing enough IMO. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry Forlon, but this does not cover everthing that needs to be considered, when comparing hmg to sg.
Damage per second wise the hmg outperformes the sg anyday, but:
-The minimum time to kill a skulk/lerk is mucher lower for the sg than for the hmg.
-The sg reload system is much better that the hmg ones and allows you to manage your ammo more efficently.
-You can inflict more damage with a fully loaded sg than with an hmg
-Saying that all good players are 2x better with the hmg than with the sg is not entirely true. I considere myself a good player and holding a sg gives me a much safer feeling than wielding an hmg, since a skulk wont catch me with my pants down (aka reloading).
True - provided you have near perfect accuracy for the entire time the creature is in your view - which is nearly impossible considering that skulks & lerks are small, fast and <i>designed</i> to be hard to hit. The shotgunner just needs one split second of accuracy on the other hand and the skulk or lerk is dead. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what... if you can kill a skulk or lerk leaping/flying past you with a shotgun, you could do it 2x easier with an hmg. period. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well:
When you are able to follow a leaping cele skulk perfectly, then why do you need an hmg. The pistol should be much better for this.
How to aim at moving targets, correctly? (accoridng to the german army)
Here it comes: You aim at a position, that your target is likely to cross in the next 2 seconds. Once you got him just pull the trigger.
This makes aiming much easier, cause you dont have to deal with 2 moving objects. (your target and your sight)
The same is true for any FPS: Shooting at a non moving target while not moving is the easiest. Shooting at a moving target while standing still is tied up with shooting at a stationary target while moving. Shooting at a moving target while moving yourself is the hardest.
The SG allows you to concentrate on your target. You dont need to think about your aim for a peroid longer than half a second. Why was the railging in q3 so great? For the same reason. The SG is some kind of short range railgun vs skulks and lerks. It is pretty strong and does not require to keep a constant track of your target.
True - provided you have near perfect accuracy for the entire time the creature is in your view - which is nearly impossible considering that skulks & lerks are small, fast and <i>designed</i> to be hard to hit. The shotgunner just needs one split second of accuracy on the other hand and the skulk or lerk is dead. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry mech, but good players are 2x better with the HMG than they are with the Shotgun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find it much more difficult to tell how much damage a shotgunner is going to do to me when I am playing a higer lifeform. The HMG is far easier to determine in my opinion as - provided the marine can aim consistently - my health will drop at a steady rate. Your health won't drop at a predictable rate against a shotgunner unless the marine lands the same number of pellets each shot. The odds of that hapening are slim, as sometimes a marine will only shoot you with a few pellets and at other times he will land all 10.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Just because you "find" it easier, doesn't mean it actually is. This is a game, and it is a game of numbers sometimes. I'll tell you right now that the HMG is 2x as good than the shotgun.
If you have experenced the shotgun harder to fight against, then you aren't experiencing enough IMO. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry Forlon, but this does not cover everthing that needs to be considered, when comparing hmg to sg.
Damage per second wise the hmg outperformes the sg anyday, but:
-The minimum time to kill a skulk/lerk is mucher lower for the sg than for the hmg.
-The sg reload system is much better that the hmg ones and allows you to manage your ammo more efficently.
-You can inflict more damage with a fully loaded sg than with an hmg
-Saying that all good players are 2x better with the hmg than with the sg is not entirely true. I considere myself a good player and holding a sg gives me a much safer feeling than wielding an hmg, since a skulk wont catch me with my pants down (aka reloading). <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. HMG kills lerk or skulk faster than SG does, HMG has much longer range
2. Start reloading with 40 or lower bullets
3. Start reloading with 40 or lower bullets so you can switch to your pistol and back to the HMG and kill the skulk
4. HMG deals more per clip to lifeforms than the SG does, but the HMG sucks against structures
2. Start reloading with 40 or lower bullets
3. Start reloading with 40 or lower bullets so you can switch to your pistol and back to the HMG and kill the skulk
4. HMG deals more per clip to lifeforms than the SG does, but the HMG sucks against structures <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
re1 Killing a skulk/lerk with sg takes about 60ms for sever recognition, tracking it with your hmg up to half a second +60ms for server recognition
(against multiple targets the hmg can be superior)
re2/3 thats personal oppion, which i do respect
re4 i didnt say per clip, but fully loaded: thats 6*8*10 pellets vs 3*125 bullets
5 sg is cheaper (res wise)
2. Start reloading with 40 or lower bullets
3. Start reloading with 40 or lower bullets so you can switch to your pistol and back to the HMG and kill the skulk
4. HMG deals more per clip to lifeforms than the SG does, but the HMG sucks against structures <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
re1 Killing a skulk/lerk with sg takes about 60ms for sever recognition, tracking it with your hmg up to half a second +60ms for server recognition
(against multiple targets the hmg can be superior)
re2/3 thats personal oppion, which i do respect
re4 i didnt say per clip, but fully loaded: thats 6*8*10 pellets vs 3*125 bullets
5 sg is cheaper (res wise) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
1. The HMG will kill the skulk faster in most cases because you can shoot at the skulk sooner than you could with the SG
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->re4 i didnt say per clip, but fully loaded: thats 6*8*10 pellets vs 3*125 bullets<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually isn't it
(6 clips)*(8 shells per clip)*(10 pellets)*(17 dmg a pellet) = 8160
vs
(3 clips)*(125 bullets)*(20 per bullet) = 7500
It's not much of a difference when you consider for one res you get 125 more bullets for the HMG as opposed to 8 shells for the SG
The HMG is more expensive to deploy but cheaper to maintain, SG is cheap to deploy but expensive to maintain
True - provided you have near perfect accuracy for the entire time the creature is in your view - which is nearly impossible considering that skulks & lerks are small, fast and <i>designed</i> to be hard to hit. The shotgunner just needs one split second of accuracy on the other hand and the skulk or lerk is dead. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
what... if you can kill a skulk or lerk leaping/flying past you with a shotgun, you could do it 2x easier with an hmg. period. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well:
When you are able to follow a leaping cele skulk perfectly, then why do you need an hmg. The pistol should be much better for this.
How to aim at moving targets, correctly? (accoridng to the german army)
Here it comes: You aim at a position, that your target is likely to cross in the next 2 seconds. Once you got him just pull the trigger.
This makes aiming much easier, cause you dont have to deal with 2 moving objects. (your target and your sight)
The same is true for any FPS: Shooting at a non moving target while not moving is the easiest. Shooting at a moving target while standing still is tied up with shooting at a stationary target while moving. Shooting at a moving target while moving yourself is the hardest.
The SG allows you to concentrate on your target. You dont need to think about your aim for a peroid longer than half a second. Why was the railging in q3 so great? For the same reason. The SG is some kind of short range railgun vs skulks and lerks. It is pretty strong and does not require to keep a constant track of your target. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok look, do you know how much damage the hmg does? To kill a skulk, YOU ONLY NEED TO KEEP YOUR XHAIR ON IT FOR HALF A SECOND. Plus, unlike the shotgun, it gives you another chance if you miss.
Oh and, most average players who can't hit a moving target while moving probably can't shoot at a leaping skulk or lerk. If you're able to do that with a shotgun, you'll be more than able to do it with an hmg.
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The HMG is more expensive to deploy but cheaper to maintain, <b>SG is cheap to maintain but expensive to maintain</b>
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Prooving, once and for all, that you're making it up as you go along. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Fixed it
At long ranges and throughout general play, yes, the HMG is superior.
At close range, which is what this thread is about, the SG is superior, because it allows the insta-gib of skulks and kills lerks very slightly quicker then a well-aimed HMG at the same close range.
Should the SG, the cheapest weapon available beyond what you spawn with, be as good or better than the more expensive weapons <i>at close range fighting</i> -- an area that's supposedly the other race's specialty?
I'm not arguing balance or anything like that.. I tend to believe that it's fairly well balanced. I'm just talking about the philosophy of it.
At long ranges and throughout general play, yes, the HMG is superior.
At close range, which is what this thread is about, the SG is superior, because it allows the insta-gib of skulks and kills lerks very slightly quicker then a well-aimed HMG at the same close range.
Should the SG, the cheapest weapon available beyond what you spawn with, be as good or better than the more expensive weapons <i>at close range fighting</i> -- an area that's supposedly the other race's specialty?
I'm not arguing balance or anything like that.. I tend to believe that it's fairly well balanced. I'm just talking about the philosophy of it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, the SG can still be surrived for as you run away you can live due to the SG losing effectiveness with range
Should the SG, the cheapest weapon available beyond what you spawn with, be as good or better than the more expensive weapons <i>at close range fighting</i> -- an area that's supposedly the other race's specialty?
I'm not arguing balance or anything like that.. I tend to believe that it's fairly well balanced. I'm just talking about the philosophy of it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, the SG can still be surrived for as you run away you can live due to the SG losing effectiveness with range. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
And again, you're missing the entire point. If you've run away, then you're no longer at "close range", are you? If you're not at close range, then you're not talking about the question raised in this thread.
Would you also agree that the GL has a larger drawback (assuming FF is on) <i>at close range</i> than the shotgun does?
Now will you also agree that the HMG takes more time to kill lower lifeforms <i>at close range</i> than the shotgun does?
If we agree on these, then you agree with me that when it comes to the very specific circumstance of being <i>at close range</i>, the SG is the better weapon.
The question isn't "is the SG balanced?" I'm not arguing that. I think it is.
The question isn't "is the SG the better overall weapon for a marine?" I'm not arguing that. I think it isn't.
The question being asked is "Should the cheap, easily available weapon be the one that is the best at close range?"
Should the SG, the cheapest weapon available beyond what you spawn with, be as good or better than the more expensive weapons <i>at close range fighting</i> -- an area that's supposedly the other race's specialty?
I'm not arguing balance or anything like that.. I tend to believe that it's fairly well balanced. I'm just talking about the philosophy of it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, the SG can still be surrived for as you run away you can live due to the SG losing effectiveness with range. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And again, you're missing the entire point. If you've run away, then you're no longer at "close range", are you? If you're not at close range, then you're not talking about the question raised in this thread.
Would you also agree that the GL has a larger drawback (assuming FF is on) <i>at close range</i> than the shotgun does?
Now will you also agree that the HMG takes more time to kill lower lifeforms <i>at close range</i> than the shotgun does?
If we agree on these, then you agree with me that when it comes to the very specific circumstance of being <i>at close range</i>, the SG is the better weapon.
The question isn't "is the SG balanced?" I'm not arguing that. I think it is.
The question isn't "is the SG the better overall weapon for a marine?" I'm not arguing that. I think it isn't.
The question being asked is "Should the cheap, easily available weapon be the one that is the best at close range?" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No.. you miss the point.
Because the SG is worse at longer ranges it is underpowered in that aspect as they are unable to finish off retreating lifeforms easily
Therefore it's a huge limit
Aliens have range in the aspect that they have speed
a) the marine has a shotgun
The marine will manage to hit three straight shots, one while blinking in, one close up and one while blinking out.
b) the marine has a hmg
The fade will not be able to get in close at all, since his health will drop alot during the first half second he has shown himself, and he has to turn and regen.
If you miss with a sg you are dead, if you miss with the hmg, you still have another 120 bullets to spray without any delay, after a small adjustment in tracking.
If the sg is very powerful up close, then so is the hmg because unlike the shotgun the hmg doesnt have any range limitations.
[Edit]If I get a shotgun during a competetive game I say "yay, now I'm immune to single skulks, AND I can get rts down quicker".
If I get a hmg during a competetive game I say "yay, now I'm immune to any number of skulks, a single lerk +1-2 skulks or a single fade... all I need to worry about is if a fade+ several other lifeforms rush me".
Seriously, taking down four skulks isnt with a hmg isnt uncommon, while the same thing is close to impossible with a sg.