No offence Zig, I understand why your doing it, but you're twisting peoples words here to your own advantage. You are picking apart the advice of people who are against you doing what you want to do, and accepting the opinions of people who agree with your plan blindly, even when they are saying boarderline moronic things.
I understand that you feel so strongly about this issue, but realisticly, you want your parents to willing accept that you are going to europe to live for a short period, with a woman 1/4th your age older than you, that they don't know. You are a minor, they just can't do that, and that would apply just the same to the worlds best and brightest child prodagies, it's almost an issue that doesn't require any thought at all to process.
Don't be afraid to grow up a little slower. Get established a little more, take a year off or something. If this relationship is worth keeping, it's worth waiting for and working for.
Obviously joining the military isn't the greatest solution. I mean , look at Brandon Hugh<span style='font-family:Times'>ey</span>... he had to desert to not fight in Iraq. Your parents might annoy you , but the army won't give you a bright future , that's for sure.
I'd like to react to the many condescending comments towards Zig. You're nearly insulting him because of your "teenangster" stereotypes ; though he may prove to be more mature than some of you. He doesn't sound like an idealistic fool , or a selfish spoiled kid.
Cases of worthless parents are more common than you'd think , I can tell from personal experience. Zig , if you really think your parents failed to ensure your happyness , you must act on your own accord , no matter that costs.
How we advise Zig is not based around a general idea that he's some ignorant kid. A lot of us here have actually BEEN 17 before. Some of us have been in similar situations (thought obviously not the exact same situation). I know that when I was 17 I would probably feel exactly the same way he would - I would do whatever it took, against the wishes of my parents and those who would attempt to shield me from my own overpowering feelings for a person who was very special to me. And when I crashed and burned (as I did in my specific situation), and looking back, I couldnt believe all the solid advice I had recieved that I had rejected in my passion.
The Army has given many young men a bright future. And an early grave also admittedly, but look at the number of politicians etc that have served. Its an honourable career that involves some serious risks, but it wont help Zig to get any closer to Julia. The army doesnt have much to offer if you are a spineless little coward who joins the army for a free ride while the Govt starts gearing up for a war in Iraq, then runs away to canada the minute it turns out the Govt wasnt kidding after all. Brandon ARRRGHHH - I swear that guy was born just to annoy me.
Cases of worthless parents are less common than most think. I find those propounding the "parents suck" attitude either had crap parents themselves, or had good parents who tried to discipline them and they rejected it. They usually end up as angry, miserable, disillusioned souls who try to convince everyone and anyone they can that there parents are probably bad too. They also have an annoying habit of turning into psychologists, and then publishing studies telling kids that their parents suck and do what you want, restarting the cylce - but I digress.
They are NOT there to simply provide you with happiness however you see fit. They try, almost always, to act in what they think is your best interest. Nothing Zig has said about his parents and how they are acting in this specific situation has given me the impression they dont care about him. They might be a little crazy, and lacking some understanding - but it sounds like they care.
If they honestly didnt care - they'd tell him to do whatever the hell he likes. They arent doing that - they dont want him making a mistake. Swiftspear had some solid advice there - dont be afraid to grow a little slower.
Zig, go climb a high mountain, relax. Look at the bright blue sky and the beutifull green panrorama. Take a deep breath, say to yourself that this relationship is 90% not possible and that it's bad for you and for her.
Im not some bastard laughing at your problem, i'm just not able to give you wrong advice.
I can understand that you may be verry mad at me right now. Anyway, there are manny girls out there in your country.
Please don't come with "she is so uniqe", there will be manny uniqe girls in your life which are more easy to visit. You may flame me now.
Parents may "care" about their children , without loving them at all , much like some teachers. Since they're responsible for them , they often tend to restrain their children's freedom to have less trouble following their wild wandering. While it's obviously acceptable to not let a 2 years old baby run around in the house , it is not to restrict the freedom of movement of someone 1 year from legal adulthood , when one has the right to decide what's the best of one's interests : it slides from a normal parental protection to authority abuse. So it doesn't necessarily mean the parents are overly protective - it may come from their own egos , that can't stand their children's growing independance.
It goes without saying that family issues have to be handled with care , but I presume Zig asked us for advices , not stating the obvious. Now I'm not sure Zig will have the patience to wait until he's 18 - the mere waiting causes pain , let's keep that in mind.
It is questionable that the Army gives young men a bright future (as in , can you consider managing the deaths of dozens , hundreds , then thousands of soldiers is succeeding in life) but the one certain thing is that it doesn't help love matters. Just stay away from the Army.
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
edited June 2004
i'll stay away from the army, but not the marines...
anyway, why are we talking about that still? o_o
<!--QuoteBegin-stak+bove--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (stak @ bove)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Obviously joining the military isn't the greatest solution. I mean , look at Brandon Hu***... he had to desert to not fight in Iraq. Your parents might annoy you , but the army won't give you a bright future , that's for sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hmm.. fighting and serving my country are my objectives. wouldn't being in the military be a decent means to that objective?
<!--QuoteBegin-mantrid+bove--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mantrid @ bove)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm fairly certain you need to wait for all those hormones to calm down before dubbing something "love". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> oh, you're probably right, i'm just a dumba$$ little punk who doesn't know what the hell he's doing. :]
<!--QuoteBegin-joda+bove--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (joda @ bove)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please don't come with "she is so uniqe", there will be manny uniqe girls in your life which are more easy to visit. You may flame me now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> i won't flame you, i'll just state my disappointment in everyone in this thread who isn't willing to go a few miles for someone they care about.
I think a lot of people in this thread are overreacting about as much as Zig's parents...
to me, the important questions are these: is there a total 0% chance your parents will understand if you say you want to go on vacation for a month to Europe? maybe you could say you'd be going with a friend, or going to meet a friend, if they definitely won't accept the Julia thing...
and if you can't convince or deceive them and went anyway, how would they react when you came home? you'd still be 17 and not done with HS, right? you wouldn't yet be in a spot where you no longer need them... so what would they do to you? are we talking getting grounded, getting beaten with reeds, getting disowned, or worse? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
finally, you're completely positive the person you're talking to is Julia, right? I know you even sent me a pic or two over AIM, but I just have to ask because when I was about 15 or 14, I fell for someone over the net who was just messing with me... it was very humiliating... and a friend of my girlfriend's was once tricked into flying across the US to meet someone who was also just messing with her... of course this is probably more like something your parents would say, but it's still true that there's plenty of creeps on the internet. so I hope you guys webcam chat or chat on the phone... and her IP address or phone number really traces to Germany... :>
so, basically, if you're positive Julia is Julia, and you think you can get away with it, parents-wise, go for it... as for the credit card thing, I don't know why people say it would be 'stealing'... I can't think of one adult who wouldn't rather have $800 in cash than credit...
but to answer your direct question, yes, I think it's perfectly fine for you to love a woman a little older than you :>
Your parents may be right Although most people(me included) refuse to believe their parents as to why they won't let you do something, it nomrally is in your best interests just to agree with them(unless they are being completely irrational/are psychotic retards who want to kill you)
Although in this particular circumstance, **** your parents, this is your choice, just think about it first.
<!--QuoteBegin-Stakhanov+Jun 21 2004, 06:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Stakhanov @ Jun 21 2004, 06:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd like to react to the many condescending comments towards Zig. You're nearly insulting him because of your "teenangster" stereotypes ; though he may prove to be more mature than some of you. He doesn't sound like an idealistic fool , or a selfish spoiled kid. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm 18, I'm allowed to tell you what it's like to be 17, it only happened about 6 months ago. For that matter, being 18 isn't that special either... Just looking at my friend groups, we all still have a fair bit of growing up to do (no doubt me too, but you can never see it in yourself until times have gone by).
Think about it zig, how are you going to remain in this relationship once you are stuck in the states 99% of the year on military duty? The reality of the fact is that if this realtionship is going to last, it is going to be a long distance relationship for a while, if you're determined that you're not going to break this thing off, you will have lots of chances in the future to visit eachother, Julia isn't going to quit her job and move there with her kid to wait for you to get out of college.
I hate to be saying this stuff, I know it isn't what you want to hear, but on this particular occation your idiot parents are pretty much right. Unfortunately, just because someone is a jerk/loser, doesn't mean that they aren't right sometimes...
That last comment ignored, your only chance of this thing acctually happening legitimately, is that your parents know and trust Julia as much as you do. No legal guardian would send their kid alone across the world to live with someone they don't know.
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
<b>DZ</b>: i get your meaning. i've had the internet messup thing too O_O. this isn't that, don't even worry about it. although, conversely, we spend a little too much time on the phone without either one of us having a low-rate internatonal plan ~,~
<3 DZ ^,^
<b>razor</b>: i get what you're saying, too. i know it's sort of absurd for a parent to let his underage child fly to an older woman across the world. but that's not what i need advice on, lol thanks anyway, though ^_^
<b>stak</b>: i'm a little less than the uber-pi$$ed i was yesterday, and i've been thinking.. and if there's no alternative, i'm willing to wait... i guess.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zig+Jun 21 2004, 06:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zig @ Jun 21 2004, 06:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-mantrid+bove--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mantrid @ bove)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm fairly certain you need to wait for all those hormones to calm down before dubbing something "love". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> oh, you're probably right, i'm just a dumba$$ little punk who doesn't know what the hell he's doing. :] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I wouldn't say that... although thats mostly because I don't call people who are older than me "punks".
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
heh, don't get me wrong, fellas. it's not like i don't appreciate the feedback. i'm absorbing all of it, don't worry.
for instance, i'm not gonna "steal" anything anymore.. just complicates things <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'd like to know a little more about Julia before pronouncing myself. What country is she from? What is the status exactly with her child (and the father)? Would there be the possibility of her coming over to the US?
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
edited June 2004
well... germany, and the father has weekend custody i believe, and i believe it's possible she could come here. it is cheaper than me flying there, but i want to see germany.. and she wants to show it to me.
she's also perfectly settled w/rent and everything. if she came here, i'd need to find a good place for her to stay and stuff.. no way i'd let her stay in the same house as my parents >_>
and yeah.. the US is cool for a lot of reasons, but sucks tremendously for as many (or more) reasons.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zig+Jun 21 2004, 10:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zig @ Jun 21 2004, 10:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> no way i'd let her stay in the same house as my parents >_> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> True <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-jumpingjoda+Jun 21 2004, 04:33 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (jumpingjoda @ Jun 21 2004, 04:33 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Becouse USA sucks alot, trust me, i'm european <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> meh I'm French and I live in the US half the year... its not that bad <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And yeah Zig I think the best response I've heard so far came from DOOM. But if your heart is so set on going to Europe, the best way to do it would be to simply finish high school and aim for next summer. Get some cash in over the next year and you should easily be able to afford at least the ticket fares and a little extra. I think meeting her in real life will tell you if she really is the one you're looking for (even though nobody can tell for certain that she is).
While the US definately has it's problems, the cost of living in Europe is much higher than in the US. Putting aside the economic state of the US, that's a very much long-term problem and not something to worry about in a single person's life time, so there's no need to point out how awful the US is as a whole economically.
*kinda back on-topic*
I think in the long-run, it really would be more feasible to bring her here, although I've nothing against staying in Germany for awhile either. So just to make clarify, for those of us trying to help, what does your plan of action look like now, after reading all of this?
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
Coming late to the show, and I definitely didn't read anything but the initial post. Just four comments... one positive, one neutral, two cautionary.
1) Age is not a boundary. I was 21 when I dated a 30-year-old and she and I had a fantastic year together. Two years after the relationship ended, we still see each other occasionally (on the swing dance floor, mostly).
2) You haven't met her in person yet? Please be careful. I will say that my one experience with an online relationship was the best and worst of my life. The best because after knowing each other for four years, we met in person and kissed less than two hours later. By the end of the weekend, we were together, and we lasted a year living 3,000 miles apart. The worst because 3,000 miles is a long way, and because I ruined the relationship when the distance/loneliness got to me. Don't rush it. It can be easy to get close to someone long-distance (paradoxical, I know), but you don't really know them till you know them in person.
3) She's got a kid. A kid. A 4-year-old kid! I'm sure I don't need to tell you that this kid's been on the earth nearly 1/4 as long as you have. Are you ready to deal with a child? I'm almost 24 (July 1, baby) and like HELL am I ready to be a father figure.
4) Your world will expand exponentially - and that is not an exaggeration or a word chosen at random, it's accurate - if/when you go to college, or simply when you begin to experience the world outside your parents' house. The same summer I got together with the woman 9 years older than I, I nearly ended up dating a girl 4 years *younger* - 17 to my 21. What I realized was that she was still very much a high-school girl... and as such, I couldn't quite relate to her world and she couldn't begin to know mine. Don't be too quick to make decisions - your world is about to get much, much bigger. ______
Finally, don't turn your back so quickly on your parents. Talk to them about it, in depth if you want. Some of my most uplifting and productive talks with my parents are those where I absolutely didn't hold myself back. I cried when they told me they wanted me to take a second year off from college. Cried, and got angry. Accused them of not having faith in me. You know what? Emotions displayed in earnest can have a powerful effect on parents. They'll probably assume you don't really know what you're talking about (love). Pre-empt their arguments. Say "You probably think I don't know what I'm talking about," and then tell them why they're wrong. If you take away all their arguments before they can voice them, they have no choice but to listen to you. But life is a lot harder without the support of your family behind you.
Nutshell: 1) Approach this relationship with caution. 2) Prove to your parents that you're an adult about this.
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
edited June 2004
i dig what you're saying, coil. just two things:
<!--QuoteBegin-Coil+bove--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Coil @ bove)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3) She's got a kid. A kid. A 4-year-old kid! I'm sure I don't need to tell you that this kid's been on the earth nearly 1/4 as long as you have. Are you ready to deal with a child? I'm almost 24 (July 1, baby) and like HELL am I ready to be a father figure.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
who said i was trying to be anybody's daddy? i don't even have to explain how strong she is. if we stay together that long, and if it happens... then, well, wow. i'll be flattered, for sure.
but as of now, she's got things under control. totally.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4) Your world will expand exponentially - and that is not an exaggeration or a word chosen at random, it's accurate - if/when you go to college, or simply when you begin to experience the world outside your parents' house. The same summer I got together with the woman 9 years older than I, I nearly ended up dating a girl 4 years *younger* - 17 to my 21. What I realized was that she was still very much a high-school girl... and as such, I couldn't quite relate to her world and she couldn't begin to know mine. Don't be too quick to make decisions - your world is about to get much, much bigger.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i'm not sure how to take this... i think i'll just sorta remember it and put it in my pocket to pull out when things change as much as you say they will. the world feels pretty big already with the USMC and college business.. but you're right, and i'll be ready.
<!--QuoteBegin-somnius+bove--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (somnius @ bove)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->what does your plan of action look like now, after reading all of this? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i've done a lot of talking with my parents. regarding what coil said about being frank and open in discussion - i'm always that way. they're used to it, so it's not really budgin em.
i really don't know what i'm going to do as yet.
<b>now, a question for you, my advice-giving friends:</b>
i've gotten a lot of feedback about "what i'm getting into" (let's put it that way). do those of you that cautioned me against a relationship like this not feel that the value of time spent and experiences, etc, outweigh the "investment"?
after all, life is about experiences. the more you have, the better it is.. and the more whole you are as a person for the future.
Have you consulted guidance from any other relatives than your parents? It might be good to ask your aunts / uncles / grandparents about your problem. Personally I strongly support you finishing <b>most</b> of college though before you start to make bigger commitments.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zig+Jun 21 2004, 06:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zig @ Jun 21 2004, 06:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> who said i was trying to be anybody's daddy? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This 4-year-old is going to see a male in the house who is caring and affectionate towards "Mommy". That makes you a father figure, even if only temporarily.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->after all, life is about experiences. the more you have, the better it is..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Coma's are an experience. Suffice to say Coma != Better life.
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
edited June 2004
<!--QuoteBegin-Mantrid+Jun 21 2004, 08:21 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mantrid @ Jun 21 2004, 08:21 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->after all, life is about experiences. the more you have, the better it is..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Coma's are an experience. Suffice to say Coma != Better life. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> hm... do i have to spell it out?
<u><b>conscious</b></u> experiences.
<!--QuoteBegin-mantrid+bove--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mantrid @ bove)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Zig+Jun 21 2004, 06:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zig @ Jun 21 2004, 06:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> who said i was trying to be anybody's daddy? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This 4-year-old is going to see a male in the house who is caring and affectionate towards "Mommy". That makes you a father figure, even if only temporarily. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you presume a lot o_o
she read all this daddy stuff and asked me why they thought i was gonna be a father figure or something. the little guy knows exactly who his daddy is, and what a boyfriend is.
a lot of people are smarter than you might assume.
<b>hint.</b>
<b>HINT.</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-invaderscootperson+bove--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (invaderscootperson @ bove)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Personally I strongly support you finishing most of college though before you start to make bigger commitments. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
dude... that's in like 6 years D:
(USMC first remember?)
waiting for something can make it better when you finally get it.
It seems to be that the majority of posters here hold temperant and conservitive views, which is to say, good. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Love conquers all?
If you love her as much as she loves you, and you are aware of the possible consequences of your rash actions, then go ahead with it...Presuming you are mentally prepared.
Comments
I understand that you feel so strongly about this issue, but realisticly, you want your parents to willing accept that you are going to europe to live for a short period, with a woman 1/4th your age older than you, that they don't know. You are a minor, they just can't do that, and that would apply just the same to the worlds best and brightest child prodagies, it's almost an issue that doesn't require any thought at all to process.
Don't be afraid to grow up a little slower. Get established a little more, take a year off or something. If this relationship is worth keeping, it's worth waiting for and working for.
I'd like to react to the many condescending comments towards Zig. You're nearly insulting him because of your "teenangster" stereotypes ; though he may prove to be more mature than some of you. He doesn't sound like an idealistic fool , or a selfish spoiled kid.
Cases of worthless parents are more common than you'd think , I can tell from personal experience. Zig , if you really think your parents failed to ensure your happyness , you must act on your own accord , no matter that costs.
The Army has given many young men a bright future. And an early grave also admittedly, but look at the number of politicians etc that have served. Its an honourable career that involves some serious risks, but it wont help Zig to get any closer to Julia. The army doesnt have much to offer if you are a spineless little coward who joins the army for a free ride while the Govt starts gearing up for a war in Iraq, then runs away to canada the minute it turns out the Govt wasnt kidding after all. Brandon ARRRGHHH - I swear that guy was born just to annoy me.
Cases of worthless parents are less common than most think. I find those propounding the "parents suck" attitude either had crap parents themselves, or had good parents who tried to discipline them and they rejected it. They usually end up as angry, miserable, disillusioned souls who try to convince everyone and anyone they can that there parents are probably bad too. They also have an annoying habit of turning into psychologists, and then publishing studies telling kids that their parents suck and do what you want, restarting the cylce - but I digress.
They are NOT there to simply provide you with happiness however you see fit. They try, almost always, to act in what they think is your best interest. Nothing Zig has said about his parents and how they are acting in this specific situation has given me the impression they dont care about him. They might be a little crazy, and lacking some understanding - but it sounds like they care.
If they honestly didnt care - they'd tell him to do whatever the hell he likes. They arent doing that - they dont want him making a mistake. Swiftspear had some solid advice there - dont be afraid to grow a little slower.
Look at the bright blue sky and the beutifull green panrorama.
Take a deep breath, say to yourself that this relationship is 90% not possible and that it's bad for you and for her.
Im not some bastard laughing at your problem, i'm just not able to give you wrong advice.
I can understand that you may be verry mad at me right now. Anyway, there are manny girls out there in your country.
Please don't come with "she is so uniqe", there will be manny uniqe girls in your life which are more easy to visit.
You may flame me now.
It goes without saying that family issues have to be handled with care , but I presume Zig asked us for advices , not stating the obvious. Now I'm not sure Zig will have the patience to wait until he's 18 - the mere waiting causes pain , let's keep that in mind.
It is questionable that the Army gives young men a bright future (as in , can you consider managing the deaths of dozens , hundreds , then thousands of soldiers is succeeding in life) but the one certain thing is that it doesn't help love matters. Just stay away from the Army.
anyway, why are we talking about that still? o_o
<!--QuoteBegin-stak+bove--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (stak @ bove)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Obviously joining the military isn't the greatest solution. I mean , look at Brandon Hu***... he had to desert to not fight in Iraq. Your parents might annoy you , but the army won't give you a bright future , that's for sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hmm.. fighting and serving my country are my objectives. wouldn't being in the military be a decent means to that objective?
<!--QuoteBegin-mantrid+bove--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mantrid @ bove)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I'm fairly certain you need to wait for all those hormones to calm down before dubbing something "love". <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh, you're probably right, i'm just a dumba$$ little punk who doesn't know what the hell he's doing. :]
<!--QuoteBegin-joda+bove--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (joda @ bove)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Please don't come with "she is so uniqe", there will be manny uniqe girls in your life which are more easy to visit.
You may flame me now. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i won't flame you, i'll just state my disappointment in everyone in this thread who isn't willing to go a few miles for someone they care about.
to me, the important questions are these: is there a total 0% chance your parents will understand if you say you want to go on vacation for a month to Europe? maybe you could say you'd be going with a friend, or going to meet a friend, if they definitely won't accept the Julia thing...
and if you can't convince or deceive them and went anyway, how would they react when you came home? you'd still be 17 and not done with HS, right? you wouldn't yet be in a spot where you no longer need them... so what would they do to you? are we talking getting grounded, getting beaten with reeds, getting disowned, or worse? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
finally, you're completely positive the person you're talking to is Julia, right? I know you even sent me a pic or two over AIM, but I just have to ask because when I was about 15 or 14, I fell for someone over the net who was just messing with me... it was very humiliating... and a friend of my girlfriend's was once tricked into flying across the US to meet someone who was also just messing with her... of course this is probably more like something your parents would say, but it's still true that there's plenty of creeps on the internet. so I hope you guys webcam chat or chat on the phone... and her IP address or phone number really traces to Germany... :>
so, basically, if you're positive Julia is Julia, and you think you can get away with it, parents-wise, go for it... as for the credit card thing, I don't know why people say it would be 'stealing'... I can't think of one adult who wouldn't rather have $800 in cash than credit...
but to answer your direct question, yes, I think it's perfectly fine for you to love a woman a little older than you :>
Your parents may be right
Although most people(me included) refuse to believe their parents as to why they won't let you do something, it nomrally is in your best interests just to agree with them(unless they are being completely irrational/are psychotic retards who want to kill you)
Although in this particular circumstance, **** your parents, this is your choice, just think about it first.
/hypocrisy
I'm 18, I'm allowed to tell you what it's like to be 17, it only happened about 6 months ago. For that matter, being 18 isn't that special either... Just looking at my friend groups, we all still have a fair bit of growing up to do (no doubt me too, but you can never see it in yourself until times have gone by).
Think about it zig, how are you going to remain in this relationship once you are stuck in the states 99% of the year on military duty? The reality of the fact is that if this realtionship is going to last, it is going to be a long distance relationship for a while, if you're determined that you're not going to break this thing off, you will have lots of chances in the future to visit eachother, Julia isn't going to quit her job and move there with her kid to wait for you to get out of college.
I hate to be saying this stuff, I know it isn't what you want to hear, but on this particular occation your idiot parents are pretty much right. Unfortunately, just because someone is a jerk/loser, doesn't mean that they aren't right sometimes...
That last comment ignored, your only chance of this thing acctually happening legitimately, is that your parents know and trust Julia as much as you do. No legal guardian would send their kid alone across the world to live with someone they don't know.
<3 DZ ^,^
<b>razor</b>: i get what you're saying, too. i know it's sort of absurd for a parent to let his underage child fly to an older woman across the world. but that's not what i need advice on, lol thanks anyway, though ^_^
<b>stak</b>: i'm a little less than the uber-pi$$ed i was yesterday, and i've been thinking.. and if there's no alternative, i'm willing to wait... i guess.
s'hard though :\
oh, you're probably right, i'm just a dumba$$ little punk who doesn't know what the hell he's doing. :] <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wouldn't say that... although thats mostly because I don't call people who are older than me "punks".
for instance, i'm not gonna "steal" anything anymore.. just complicates things <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
she's also perfectly settled w/rent and everything. if she came here, i'd need to find a good place for her to stay and stuff.. no way i'd let her stay in the same house as my parents >_>
and yeah.. the US is cool for a lot of reasons, but sucks tremendously for as many (or more) reasons.
but that could be said of anywhere, i guess.
True <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
meh I'm French and I live in the US half the year... its not that bad <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And yeah Zig I think the best response I've heard so far came from DOOM. But if your heart is so set on going to Europe, the best way to do it would be to simply finish high school and aim for next summer. Get some cash in over the next year and you should easily be able to afford at least the ticket fares and a little extra. I think meeting her in real life will tell you if she really is the one you're looking for (even though nobody can tell for certain that she is).
While the US definately has it's problems, the cost of living in Europe is much higher than in the US. Putting aside the economic state of the US, that's a very much long-term problem and not something to worry about in a single person's life time, so there's no need to point out how awful the US is as a whole economically.
*kinda back on-topic*
I think in the long-run, it really would be more feasible to bring her here, although I've nothing against staying in Germany for awhile either. So just to make clarify, for those of us trying to help, what does your plan of action look like now, after reading all of this?
1) Age is not a boundary. I was 21 when I dated a 30-year-old and she and I had a fantastic year together. Two years after the relationship ended, we still see each other occasionally (on the swing dance floor, mostly).
2) You haven't met her in person yet? Please be careful. I will say that my one experience with an online relationship was the best and worst of my life. The best because after knowing each other for four years, we met in person and kissed less than two hours later. By the end of the weekend, we were together, and we lasted a year living 3,000 miles apart. The worst because 3,000 miles is a long way, and because I ruined the relationship when the distance/loneliness got to me. Don't rush it. It can be easy to get close to someone long-distance (paradoxical, I know), but you don't really know them till you know them in person.
3) She's got a kid. A kid. A 4-year-old kid! I'm sure I don't need to tell you that this kid's been on the earth nearly 1/4 as long as you have. Are you ready to deal with a child? I'm almost 24 (July 1, baby) and like HELL am I ready to be a father figure.
4) Your world will expand exponentially - and that is not an exaggeration or a word chosen at random, it's accurate - if/when you go to college, or simply when you begin to experience the world outside your parents' house. The same summer I got together with the woman 9 years older than I, I nearly ended up dating a girl 4 years *younger* - 17 to my 21. What I realized was that she was still very much a high-school girl... and as such, I couldn't quite relate to her world and she couldn't begin to know mine. Don't be too quick to make decisions - your world is about to get much, much bigger.
______
Finally, don't turn your back so quickly on your parents. Talk to them about it, in depth if you want. Some of my most uplifting and productive talks with my parents are those where I absolutely didn't hold myself back. I cried when they told me they wanted me to take a second year off from college. Cried, and got angry. Accused them of not having faith in me. You know what? Emotions displayed in earnest can have a powerful effect on parents. They'll probably assume you don't really know what you're talking about (love). Pre-empt their arguments. Say "You probably think I don't know what I'm talking about," and then tell them why they're wrong. If you take away all their arguments before they can voice them, they have no choice but to listen to you. But life is a lot harder without the support of your family behind you.
Nutshell:
1) Approach this relationship with caution.
2) Prove to your parents that you're an adult about this.
Yet again some one says exactly what I wanted to say...
just alot better <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Coil+bove--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Coil @ bove)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->3) She's got a kid. A kid. A 4-year-old kid! I'm sure I don't need to tell you that this kid's been on the earth nearly 1/4 as long as you have. Are you ready to deal with a child? I'm almost 24 (July 1, baby) and like HELL am I ready to be a father figure.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
who said i was trying to be anybody's daddy? i don't even have to explain how strong she is. if we stay together that long, and if it happens... then, well, wow. i'll be flattered, for sure.
but as of now, she's got things under control. totally.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->4) Your world will expand exponentially - and that is not an exaggeration or a word chosen at random, it's accurate - if/when you go to college, or simply when you begin to experience the world outside your parents' house. The same summer I got together with the woman 9 years older than I, I nearly ended up dating a girl 4 years *younger* - 17 to my 21. What I realized was that she was still very much a high-school girl... and as such, I couldn't quite relate to her world and she couldn't begin to know mine. Don't be too quick to make decisions - your world is about to get much, much bigger.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i'm not sure how to take this... i think i'll just sorta remember it and put it in my pocket to pull out when things change as much as you say they will. the world feels pretty big already with the USMC and college business.. but you're right, and i'll be ready.
<!--QuoteBegin-somnius+bove--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (somnius @ bove)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->what does your plan of action look like now, after reading all of this? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
i've done a lot of talking with my parents. regarding what coil said about being frank and open in discussion - i'm always that way. they're used to it, so it's not really budgin em.
i really don't know what i'm going to do as yet.
<b>now, a question for you, my advice-giving friends:</b>
i've gotten a lot of feedback about "what i'm getting into" (let's put it that way). do those of you that cautioned me against a relationship like this not feel that the value of time spent and experiences, etc, outweigh the "investment"?
after all, life is about experiences. the more you have, the better it is.. and the more whole you are as a person for the future.
or... am i wrong?
And nobody goes half-way around the world for a date. You'll end up getting married or something. Its a child, he/she can't simply be cast aside...
I've known other people in the same situation and they did not have happy experiences. That is why I advice against you doing the same thing.
This 4-year-old is going to see a male in the house who is caring and affectionate towards "Mommy". That makes you a father figure, even if only temporarily.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->after all, life is about experiences. the more you have, the better it is..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Coma's are an experience. Suffice to say Coma != Better life.
Coma's are an experience. Suffice to say Coma != Better life. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
hm... do i have to spell it out?
<u><b>conscious</b></u> experiences.
<!--QuoteBegin-mantrid+bove--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (mantrid @ bove)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Zig+Jun 21 2004, 06:46 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zig @ Jun 21 2004, 06:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> who said i was trying to be anybody's daddy? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This 4-year-old is going to see a male in the house who is caring and affectionate towards "Mommy". That makes you a father figure, even if only temporarily.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
you presume a lot o_o
she read all this daddy stuff and asked me why they thought i was gonna be a father figure or something. the little guy knows exactly who his daddy is, and what a boyfriend is.
a lot of people are smarter than you might assume.
<b>hint.</b>
<b>HINT.</b>
<!--QuoteBegin-invaderscootperson+bove--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (invaderscootperson @ bove)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Personally I strongly support you finishing most of college though before you start to make bigger commitments. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
dude... that's in like 6 years D:
(USMC first remember?)
waiting for something can make it better when you finally get it.
except if it takes 6 YEARS... O_O
Love conquers all?
If you love her as much as she loves you, and you are aware of the possible consequences of your rash actions, then go ahead with it...Presuming you are mentally prepared.