Though the main part of Flayra's reply was with regards to alien lifeforms avilible at any hive, it's true that he did comment about the chamber model. However every time this idea has come up in dedicated threads like this one the devs have been silent. If we could get a reply now it would be great. I just can't see what's wrong with this idea; I've seen it over and over again and it always has widespread support. Even if we got a reply that said it's not going in we might at least learn WHY.
Pfeh, another idea; why not make a sub-forum to S&I where the developers could -say- once a week take 5 minutes to say REJECTED / IN TESTING. Caput; the end of repetitive ideas.
**Edit**
Oh, noes! I said "idea!" Now this gets ignored! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
edited May 2004
This is one of the better suggestions for future NS versions! I really like the discussion which is taking place here! Really nice...
I hope we can test this in a future version. Unchain the chambers!!! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And monkey, the problem is 3.0 is a much different strategic landscape because alien res is no longer shared. It made sense back then that indeed you could not get higher life forms if the gorges spent all the res on chambers (well it would be much longer at any rate) and didn't go back skulk themselves to release some of the res flow. But there was a lot different back then so its a moot point.
I'm not sure aliens need much help in NS right now but I'm not against the idea because it really doesn't give the aliens more ability, just more option.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
that is what we really need. What I always disliked was, that skulks are too weak in early games with DCs. They need an early SC to be strong, now with reduced HPs it´s more important than in 2.01.
But if you placed early SCs, aliens will suffer the consequences when evolving fade or onos. Those higher lifeforms get too weak then.
This change will give the aliens a straight line in evolution and strength. As skulk they can use the coaking option, as onos or fade you can use carapace or regeneration. This topic has major improtance and I support your idea 100 % !!!!
The only thing that might be overpowered would be allowing both regen fades AND mc warp-to-hive ability at hive1. At only an added cost of 10 res (for a single mc in the starting hive), it would make defending the 2nd hive whilst its building far easier.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only thing that might be overpowered would be allowing both regen fades AND mc warp-to-hive ability at hive1. At only an added cost of 10 res (for a single mc in the starting hive), it would make defending the 2nd hive whilst its building far easier.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure if MCs still warp you to an uncompleted hive that is under attack. I believe that got taken out. I may be wrong however; has anyone tested this in 4.0a?
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
You could always make it so that upgrades cost:
3 res with one hive
2 res with two hives
1 res with three hives.
This would both make multiple upgrades a risky choice with one hive (not including the cost of the chambers being built) and also benefit the kharaa even further if they build multiple hives.
Grendel: not a bad idea, so long as the upgrade effectiveness isn't chained to hives (ie: level1 carapce at one hive). The numbers may need some tweaking, 3 res for an early game upgrade might be a bit steep. But that's what playtesting is for. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I like a combination of the original suggestion by Ryo-Ohki, Supernorn's 3-hive suggestion <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=70880' target='_blank'>here</a>, and maybe some of the add-ons in here.
Supernorn's suggestion would provide more want for three hives to compensate for the chamber unchaining.
The possible versions of this suggestion may include Grendel's above suggestion or the upgrade-level-by-hive-count version.
I like the idea, some playtesting of it should tell us a lot about the game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+May 29 2004, 09:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ May 29 2004, 09:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You could always make it so that upgrades cost:
3 res with one hive
2 res with two hives
1 res with three hives.
This would both make multiple upgrades a risky choice with one hive (not including the cost of the chambers being built) and also benefit the kharaa even further if they build multiple hives.
Just a thought. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This would further make aliens weaker at one hive, and stronger with more hives, which is not the problem.
Currently 2 hives is practically a gg for marines while 1 hive is total crap and if you don't get two hives you are almost guarenteed to lose
<!--QuoteBegin-Ryo-Ohki+May 29 2004, 07:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ May 29 2004, 07:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The only thing that might be overpowered would be allowing both regen fades AND mc warp-to-hive ability at hive1. At only an added cost of 10 res (for a single mc in the starting hive), it would make defending the 2nd hive whilst its building far easier.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm not sure if MCs still warp you to an uncompleted hive that is under attack. I believe that got taken out. I may be wrong however; has anyone tested this in 4.0a? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> you can go to it if its under attack
EpidemicDark Force GorgeJoin Date: 2003-06-29Member: 17781Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Forlorn+May 30 2004, 04:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Forlorn @ May 30 2004, 04:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+May 29 2004, 09:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ May 29 2004, 09:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You could always make it so that upgrades cost:
3 res with one hive
2 res with two hives
1 res with three hives.
This would both make multiple upgrades a risky choice with one hive (not including the cost of the chambers being built) and also benefit the kharaa even further if they build multiple hives.
Just a thought. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This would further make aliens weaker at one hive, and stronger with more hives, which is not the problem.
Currently 2 hives is practically a gg for marines while 1 hive is total crap and if you don't get two hives you are almost guarenteed to lose <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not if you can upgrade all 3 type with one hive. You achieve a stronger 1 hive aliens and less 2 and 3 hived <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Flak[50C]+May 29 2004, 11:41 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flak[50C] @ May 29 2004, 11:41 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And monkey, the problem is 3.0 is a much different strategic landscape because alien res is no longer shared. It made sense back then that indeed you could not get higher life forms if the gorges spent all the res on chambers (well it would be much longer at any rate) and didn't go back skulk themselves to release some of the res flow. But there was a lot different back then so its a moot point. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> If youve clicked the link, youll see thats the thread that brought us the unchained evolutions, as well as the removal of the gorge res benefit. Although the things posted there were speculations, most of what Flayra said still applies.
ie: if the team all saves for fades, there wont be enough res towers going up. If everyone gorges and drops an upgrade chamber (lets say 9 gorges, 1 chamber each to get max of 3 levels of all three upgrades), then the fades are delayed.
Great idea! As is it, DMS is getting old and forces alien players to follow the same strategy over and over and over again (At least on pubs, anyway). A new system would really bring back the joy of playing something different, something besides a human with a gun and something to shoot at.
Here's another idea I've seen floating around the forums in the past: the ability to mix upgrades for each chamber. For example, giving a skulk the ability to choose 2 carapace upgrades and 1 regen. Or 2 adrenaline upgrades and one celerity. Or 1 cloak, 1 carapace, 1 regen. We've already seen multiple upgrades in Combat and having a limited version of the Combat system in Classic would, in my opinion, not have too drastic of a balancing issue (since using multiple upgrades reduce the efficiency of each individual upgrade) and will bring a very different strategic atmosphere for Alien players.
Combining the above suggestion with the original posters' would not be too complicated either. You would just limited the amount of upgrades to 3 x (# of hives built). So at 1 hive you have at most 3 upgrades and at 3 hives you get all 9 options. Upgrades could be reduced to 1 res each (in order to penalize different ugprade paths) or stay at 2 res for 3 upgrades of the same kind.
Using both ideas in conjunction would really put the spark back in alien play and eliminate the existence of the "must have upgrade." It can also put some use into those upgrades that don't find their way into games under the current system (like redemption or silence).
Early game Aliens are far too weak!! <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> THEY NEED BEEFYNESS, heh. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Please devs! Put some pop back into Alien play and reply to these posts with your thoughts!!
The one problem with this idea lies not with the upgrade effects, but with the chamber effects.
Consider the marine SG rush. Consider the known counter of sensory.
What prevents aliens from always dropping sensory in their hive, thus ensuring no shotgun rush? The chamber-hive connection. Drop a sensory in the hive and while you're probably okay for the SG rush, you're screwed for a bunch of other things. Unchain the chambers and you've got a guarunteed sensory in the hive every game. I know because I'll be the one putting it there when I play. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> But this will more or less kill the SG rush.. partially because a single sensory chamber is all you need to get the full chamber effect.
Now consider the movement chamber. In the situation where the marines are locking down a hive, a movement chamber can make all the difference in the world to get those downed aliens back into the fight. With unchained chambers, guess what else is going to be in the 1st hive?
So I think that because of the difficulties with chamber effects (especially chambers that have the same effect whether there's only one or three) they perhaps would need to be nerfed following this. Maybe make movement chambers work more like phase-gates perhaps.. so it takes one at your destination as well.
And perhaps make sensories so that they only give partial cloaking or perhaps have a speed of effect that works like the upgrade -- dependant on how many sensory chambers you're in range of.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->What prevents aliens from always dropping sensory in their hive, thus ensuring no shotgun rush? The chamber-hive connection. Drop a sensory in the hive and while you're probably okay for the SG rush, you're screwed for a bunch of other things. Unchain the chambers and you've got a guarunteed sensory in the hive every game. I know because I'll be the one putting it there when I play. But this will more or less kill the SG rush.. partially because a single sensory chamber is all you need to get the full chamber effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And what do the aliens have now against the shotgun rush? Luck basically. I don't see shotgun rushes often these days but when I do, they generally work, as a shotgun > skulk, even with carapace. Sensory evens the field a little but it certainly doesn't completly negate the rush; even in the days of 2.0 when sensory was the first chamber for preferance, shotgun rushes happened and succeded quite often.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now consider the movement chamber. In the situation where the marines are locking down a hive, a movement chamber can make all the difference in the world to get those downed aliens back into the fight. With unchained chambers, guess what else is going to be in the 1st hive?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I assume you're referring to the marines entering a 2nd hive that is in constrution, and the aliens using MCs to get there. For starters, if that's too much of a problem the ability to warp to a hive under construction can be removed; it was removed for a time during playtesting. Secondly, marines showing up in force at a 2nd hive under construction currently is GG; the aliens really can't do anything against it besides pray they can get there fast enough (and without leap it's pretty much hopeless). Like the sensory chamber vs shotgun rushes, unchaining MCs would help even the playing field; an alien side would stand a better chance (i.e. a chance at all) at saving their 2nd hive. Marines at an unbuilt hive will still have at least double the spawn rate, usually a phase gate and turrets. I'd say that letting the aliens warp in merely gives them a fighting chance, not an automatic victory over the marines present there.
The early game is decidedly marine biased right now; rambo marines running around knifing res nodes, marine teams gunning down skulks on long corridors, and a general lack of teamplay on the part of the marines. Bring sensory and movement chambers into the early game will even the playing field and force the marines to do what they had to do in 2.0: use teamwork. The 2.0 learning curve for marines was brutal but they learned; now with the balance in their favour, they're wiping the floor with alien sides.
And even if unchaining the chambers caused imbalance, this is a beta: we're supposed to be testing stuff. I say that the chamber idea has enough merit to warrent at least one playtest. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ryo-Ohki+May 30 2004, 06:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ May 30 2004, 06:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Sensory evens the field a little but it certainly doesn't completly negate the rush; even in the days of 2.0 when sensory was the first chamber for preferance, shotgun rushes happened and succeded quite often. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I just want to add that all it takes is one scan to find an SC, and a few shotgun blasts/LMG bursts to destroy it. If the marines know there's an SC in the hive and yet don't do anything about it, they deserve what's coming to them.
I will cry if this doesnt make it in now. It deserves at least one test, early sens without the drawback of no DCs later is <b> exactly </b> what the aliens need right now.
can we get one of those funky polls going on this issue? the same as with the knockback poll?
We need monkey chambers. Think about it: they could spew around little monkeys that would be like babblers, but they would be like "ukukuku" or "kekeke" and then explode. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<span style='color:red'><span style='font-family:Optima'><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>but i really like the idea</span></span></span> <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
... was this thread in public beta discussion the whole time? no wonder I didn't see it in S&I <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But this will more or less kill the SG rush.. partially because a single sensory chamber is all you need to get the full chamber effect.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not really, although I wouldn't mind seeing SG rushes go the way of the Dodo, all you need to do is build an Obs and have the comm ping as you run in. And thats only if they built a sens right off the bat.
<!--QuoteBegin-Umbraed Monkey+May 29 2004, 11:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Umbraed Monkey @ May 29 2004, 11:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Flak[50C+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flak[50C)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->,May 29 2004, 11:41 AM] And monkey, the problem is 3.0 is a much different strategic landscape because alien res is no longer shared. It made sense back then that indeed you could not get higher life forms if the gorges spent all the res on chambers (well it would be much longer at any rate) and didn't go back skulk themselves to release some of the res flow. But there was a lot different back then so its a moot point. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If youve clicked the link, youll see thats the thread that brought us the unchained evolutions, as well as the removal of the gorge res benefit. Although the things posted there were speculations, most of what Flayra said still applies.
ie: if the team all saves for fades, there wont be enough res towers going up. If everyone gorges and drops an upgrade chamber (lets say 9 gorges, 1 chamber each to get max of 3 levels of all three upgrades), then the fades are delayed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> SO?! Fades are delayed if everyone gorges. It's a much needed strat for aliens. Aliens could now take the risk of "tech rushing", or all go fades and do the equivalent to the "HA rush."
You know, if this idea isn't implemented in Beta 3.0 sometime, I'll be seriousily saddened as then it means this game seems to refuse to evolve.
Comments
**Edit**
Oh, noes! I said "idea!" Now this gets ignored! <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I hope we can test this in a future version.
Unchain the chambers!!! <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And monkey, the problem is 3.0 is a much different strategic landscape because alien res is no longer shared. It made sense back then that indeed you could not get higher life forms if the gorges spent all the res on chambers (well it would be much longer at any rate) and didn't go back skulk themselves to release some of the res flow. But there was a lot different back then so its a moot point.
I'm not sure aliens need much help in NS right now but I'm not against the idea because it really doesn't give the aliens more ability, just more option.
But if you placed early SCs, aliens will suffer the consequences when evolving fade or onos. Those higher lifeforms get too weak then.
This change will give the aliens a straight line in evolution and strength. As skulk they can use the coaking option, as onos or fade you can use carapace or regeneration. This topic has major improtance and I support your idea 100 % !!!!
(and has been for a long time...)
I'm not sure if MCs still warp you to an uncompleted hive that is under attack. I believe that got taken out. I may be wrong however; has anyone tested this in 4.0a?
3 res with one hive
2 res with two hives
1 res with three hives.
This would both make multiple upgrades a risky choice with one hive (not including the cost of the chambers being built) and also benefit the kharaa even further if they build multiple hives.
Just a thought.
I like a combination of the original suggestion by Ryo-Ohki, Supernorn's 3-hive suggestion <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=70880' target='_blank'>here</a>, and maybe some of the add-ons in here.
Supernorn's suggestion would provide more want for three hives to compensate for the chamber unchaining.
The possible versions of this suggestion may include Grendel's above suggestion or the upgrade-level-by-hive-count version.
I like the idea, some playtesting of it should tell us a lot about the game.
3 res with one hive
2 res with two hives
1 res with three hives.
This would both make multiple upgrades a risky choice with one hive (not including the cost of the chambers being built) and also benefit the kharaa even further if they build multiple hives.
Just a thought. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would further make aliens weaker at one hive, and stronger with more hives, which is not the problem.
Currently 2 hives is practically a gg for marines while 1 hive is total crap and if you don't get two hives you are almost guarenteed to lose
I'm not sure if MCs still warp you to an uncompleted hive that is under attack. I believe that got taken out. I may be wrong however; has anyone tested this in 4.0a? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
you can go to it if its under attack
and i don't really like this idea ;*(
3 res with one hive
2 res with two hives
1 res with three hives.
This would both make multiple upgrades a risky choice with one hive (not including the cost of the chambers being built) and also benefit the kharaa even further if they build multiple hives.
Just a thought. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This would further make aliens weaker at one hive, and stronger with more hives, which is not the problem.
Currently 2 hives is practically a gg for marines while 1 hive is total crap and if you don't get two hives you are almost guarenteed to lose <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not if you can upgrade all 3 type with one hive. You achieve a stronger 1 hive aliens and less 2 and 3 hived <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If youve clicked the link, youll see thats the thread that brought us the unchained evolutions, as well as the removal of the gorge res benefit. Although the things posted there were speculations, most of what Flayra said still applies.
ie: if the team all saves for fades, there wont be enough res towers going up. If everyone gorges and drops an upgrade chamber (lets say 9 gorges, 1 chamber each to get max of 3 levels of all three upgrades), then the fades are delayed.
Here's another idea I've seen floating around the forums in the past: the ability to mix upgrades for each chamber. For example, giving a skulk the ability to choose 2 carapace upgrades and 1 regen. Or 2 adrenaline upgrades and one celerity. Or 1 cloak, 1 carapace, 1 regen. We've already seen multiple upgrades in Combat and having a limited version of the Combat system in Classic would, in my opinion, not have too drastic of a balancing issue (since using multiple upgrades reduce the efficiency of each individual upgrade) and will bring a very different strategic atmosphere for Alien players.
Combining the above suggestion with the original posters' would not be too complicated either. You would just limited the amount of upgrades to 3 x (# of hives built). So at 1 hive you have at most 3 upgrades and at 3 hives you get all 9 options. Upgrades could be reduced to 1 res each (in order to penalize different ugprade paths) or stay at 2 res for 3 upgrades of the same kind.
Using both ideas in conjunction would really put the spark back in alien play and eliminate the existence of the "must have upgrade." It can also put some use into those upgrades that don't find their way into games under the current system (like redemption or silence).
Early game Aliens are far too weak!! <!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> THEY NEED BEEFYNESS, heh. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Please devs! Put some pop back into Alien play and reply to these posts with your thoughts!!
The one problem with this idea lies not with the upgrade effects, but with the chamber effects.
Consider the marine SG rush.
Consider the known counter of sensory.
What prevents aliens from always dropping sensory in their hive, thus ensuring no shotgun rush? The chamber-hive connection. Drop a sensory in the hive and while you're probably okay for the SG rush, you're screwed for a bunch of other things. Unchain the chambers and you've got a guarunteed sensory in the hive every game. I know because I'll be the one putting it there when I play. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> But this will more or less kill the SG rush.. partially because a single sensory chamber is all you need to get the full chamber effect.
Now consider the movement chamber. In the situation where the marines are locking down a hive, a movement chamber can make all the difference in the world to get those downed aliens back into the fight. With unchained chambers, guess what else is going to be in the 1st hive?
So I think that because of the difficulties with chamber effects (especially chambers that have the same effect whether there's only one or three) they perhaps would need to be nerfed following this. Maybe make movement chambers work more like phase-gates perhaps.. so it takes one at your destination as well.
And perhaps make sensories so that they only give partial cloaking or perhaps have a speed of effect that works like the upgrade -- dependant on how many sensory chambers you're in range of.
And what do the aliens have now against the shotgun rush? Luck basically. I don't see shotgun rushes often these days but when I do, they generally work, as a shotgun > skulk, even with carapace. Sensory evens the field a little but it certainly doesn't completly negate the rush; even in the days of 2.0 when sensory was the first chamber for preferance, shotgun rushes happened and succeded quite often.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Now consider the movement chamber. In the situation where the marines are locking down a hive, a movement chamber can make all the difference in the world to get those downed aliens back into the fight. With unchained chambers, guess what else is going to be in the 1st hive?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I assume you're referring to the marines entering a 2nd hive that is in constrution, and the aliens using MCs to get there. For starters, if that's too much of a problem the ability to warp to a hive under construction can be removed; it was removed for a time during playtesting. Secondly, marines showing up in force at a 2nd hive under construction currently is GG; the aliens really can't do anything against it besides pray they can get there fast enough (and without leap it's pretty much hopeless). Like the sensory chamber vs shotgun rushes, unchaining MCs would help even the playing field; an alien side would stand a better chance (i.e. a chance at all) at saving their 2nd hive. Marines at an unbuilt hive will still have at least double the spawn rate, usually a phase gate and turrets. I'd say that letting the aliens warp in merely gives them a fighting chance, not an automatic victory over the marines present there.
The early game is decidedly marine biased right now; rambo marines running around knifing res nodes, marine teams gunning down skulks on long corridors, and a general lack of teamplay on the part of the marines. Bring sensory and movement chambers into the early game will even the playing field and force the marines to do what they had to do in 2.0: use teamwork. The 2.0 learning curve for marines was brutal but they learned; now with the balance in their favour, they're wiping the floor with alien sides.
And even if unchaining the chambers caused imbalance, this is a beta: we're supposed to be testing stuff. I say that the chamber idea has enough merit to warrent at least one playtest. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.
I just want to add that all it takes is one scan to find an SC, and a few shotgun blasts/LMG bursts to destroy it. If the marines know there's an SC in the hive and yet don't do anything about it, they deserve what's coming to them.
It deserves at least one test, early sens without the drawback of no DCs later is <b> exactly </b> what the aliens need right now.
can we get one of those funky polls going on this issue? the same as with the knockback poll?
We need monkey chambers. Think about it: they could spew around little monkeys that would be like babblers, but they would be like "ukukuku" or "kekeke" and then explode. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
^^
<span style='color:red'><span style='font-family:Optima'><span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>but i really like the idea</span></span></span>
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no wonder I didn't see it in S&I <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
all hail the new S&I forum, aka public beta
Not really, although I wouldn't mind seeing SG rushes go the way of the Dodo, all you need to do is build an Obs and have the comm ping as you run in. And thats only if they built a sens right off the bat.
If youve clicked the link, youll see thats the thread that brought us the unchained evolutions, as well as the removal of the gorge res benefit. Although the things posted there were speculations, most of what Flayra said still applies.
ie: if the team all saves for fades, there wont be enough res towers going up. If everyone gorges and drops an upgrade chamber (lets say 9 gorges, 1 chamber each to get max of 3 levels of all three upgrades), then the fades are delayed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
SO?! Fades are delayed if everyone gorges. It's a much needed strat for aliens. Aliens could now take the risk of "tech rushing", or all go fades and do the equivalent to the "HA rush."
You know, if this idea isn't implemented in Beta 3.0 sometime, I'll be seriousily saddened as then it means this game seems to refuse to evolve.