One upgrade from each chamber, and One upgrade per hive
Focus / Cloak / SoF skulk would be hell <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
There are a ton of posts regarding this and how to make the chambers viable, but I think that the idea of unlocking one upgrade per chamber per hive is a bad one. I really believe if all chambers can be dropped, but the alien has the choice of only ONE upgrade total per hive (like it is now), but the choice from any chamber already dropped, it will stay balanced for the most part.
The only way I foresee balancing upgrades with allowing multiple upgrade per chamber would be that additional chambers would be required. I.E. if there are four DC's, you get one LVL 3 upgrade and one LVL1 upgrade. In order to have a full lvl 3 upgrade for all three traits, you'd have to have 12 of the chamber. That may help balance b/c of the massive res investment.
The original idea - You can choose any upgrade, it is level 3, at one hive you choose one upgrade , at two hives 2 upgrades etc. Good idea, it would make some spam areas a little too powerful though. remedy is to increase the cost of all chambers (but OC's) to 15 res. This way, the ocs can still be built for 10 as per usual, but shouldnt a benefit givign structure like a dc or sc be a little more? I only say 15 because theres no more of that crazy 54 res fade kind of number going on. So any number between 12 and 15 would be cool.
I think a few marine things should need to be tweaked though..... Not goign to sya anything yet, but alot of things should be obvious. Imagine a start game focus rush - GG. I would like to see an armory like area in some maps where you can take a gun off a rack or something... hehe I could imagine a shotgun behidn some glass [USE IN CASE OF EMERGENCY]
I have always wondered why when the aliens are supposed to be the most naturally adapting creatures humans have ever met, why they get stuck with what they can do due to how many homes they have <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
This idea has my support and seems like a "natural" direction for NS.
But there are a lot of versions on this thread, which is the one to go with?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But there are a lot of versions on this thread, which is the one to go with?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The poll in this forum, and the main thrust of the arguement in this thread, is based around the idea on page one of this thread.
Yeh there are alot of different versions of this idea going about <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anyways nice to see the vote is going ~80% in favour of a change
oh and while I'm here <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72182' target='_blank'>clickey!</a>
im not sure about the 1 hive 1 lvl but mayb you could put down all the chambers u wanted but thier abilties would not be unlocked till a hive it put up so it will make more alien strats by having sens chambers in important parts of the map
One reason I like this idea is that we'd start to see aliens working with upgrades that aren't at full lvl3. It's always seemed sort of pointless to me to have the upgrade level limited by the number of chambers you have, because aliens almost always get all three chambers up within seconds of them becoming available. Heck, Combat doesn't even take it seriously, giving aliens lvl3 powers immediately.
One reason I DON'T like it is that it would mess up the strategy-counter-strategy idea. Granted, the current system doesn't work all that well, because the game is too fast for this to work. But still, if aliens can have any upgrade, then basically there no reason for the comm to work to counter any particular chamber.
The real reason for DMS is simply the inexperience and disorganization of public players. Good alien teams can make virtually any chamber choice work.
Word on that. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> I gotta say that skulks get plastered on the walls most of the time. They could use a boost. Thummmmmbs up!!!
Apart from having all the chambers unlocked AND free choice of evolving what you want in any way you want (duuh, come on...with the rescosts involved this is NOT unbalanced), have a fourth chamber which allows the aliens to unlock a new upgrade slot for a rather heavy cost...the price would also vary depending on what life form you are...
So a skulk would perhaps cost 10 or so res to unlock a 4th upgrade slot while it'd cost perhaps 40 or so for an onos...and if you evolve into something else after having unlucked any extra skill slots, you lose ALL those extra slots...so there will be no way for a skulk to unlock 4 extra slots and then evolve to an onos with a total of 7 upgrade slots...
And once again, I can't see how this will be imbalanced, when taking the insane rescosts involved...
Second, the khaara ARE supposed to adapt slowly to their environment and situation. Thus the longer they manage to stay alive the stronger they should become.
Yah, i think that marine rt should have hp decrease since the com and elec them "decrease the cost if the hp too have to be decreased" but boost the alien's since res are very important to them...
I would like to see the change of unchaining the chambers to hives...
I didn't read everyone's replies but the two above mine definitely sound like poppycock and threadjacks... talk about the original post... would you....please?
What happens if the aliens get three Hives, then marines kill two, but there are still all three chamber types in the last hive? Both ways it's been described, you either end up with Regen1, Cloak1, and Silence1 Skulks vs. heavily armed and armored marines, or level 3 of any single evolution. Really makes it hard to push back, eh?
Personally, I just drop MC first and tell my teammates to learn how to use it or SUYF, DMS games are bor-ing.
wait so the upgrade, is it an individual choice or a team choice? Because I don't know how marines would stand a chance against a diverse team as this, fighting off both defense fades, and silence, focus, or cloaking skulks, eventually supported by adren gorges.
Otherwise, I didn't read all 12 pages of the topic, but this might have been suggested. Unchain the chambers, but still keep them linked to hives. For example, the first hive can be linked to one chamber, leaving its cost at 10, but both other chambers would cost 20 as long as they don't have a hive to link themselves to.
One thing I'm really afraid is that hives are losing importance. First, they've been unlinked from evolutions, now they might be unlinked to upgrades. Basically, that second hive would be mostly for leaping and eventually bile bomb and umbra. And the 3rd hive is already useless enough to be totally forgotten if it happens. The only compensating thing I can think of is to force aliens to have more hives by making their spawn rate more important and having hives placed only to ensure survival.
bad idea, sorry. imagine having all 3 chambers at the beginning of the game? being able to heal, teleport, and cloak ALL AT THE FIRST HIVE! i could not see that working.
<!--QuoteBegin-Xeno+Jun 3 2004, 09:51 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Xeno @ Jun 3 2004, 09:51 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> bad idea, sorry. imagine having all 3 chambers at the beginning of the game? being able to heal, teleport, and cloak ALL AT THE FIRST HIVE! i could not see that working. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The aliens could cloak, teleport, and heal, however that's 30 res not going into other important area's so by getting 3 chambers you could have built 2 res towers, or nearly another hive, it's not like the aliens could suddenly chamber up the whole map.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->bad idea, sorry. imagine having all 3 chambers at the beginning of the game? being able to heal, teleport, and cloak ALL AT THE FIRST HIVE! i could not see that working.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Imagine being able to evolve into a Fade or an Onos ALL AT FIRST HIVE! I could not see that working.
We have no idea if it will be unbalancing unless we try it out. It's not like the alien side would start with 3 of every chamber already built; getting all of them is an investment of 90 res spread over numerous people, who won't be able to Fade, drop other nodes or put up a 2nd hive. Aliens in early game are NOT swimming in resources. In any case these points have been brought up before.
It's great to see a plugin for unchained chambers appearing on certain servers. From the sound of things, it's adding a lot to the game and not causing the imbalance that some have claimed it would produce. Keep the comments coming in guys; the devs are bound to take notice sooner or later <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Just played on a server hosting a mod to do this.
All I have to say is.. WOW.
It definitely boosts alien teamwork. And makes them more viable.. Of the games we played Aliens won half, Marines won half.
It's a great change. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well I've played a few games on servers with the plugin, and my experiances so far have been that:
- The early alien game is boosted nicely. It's not too much however; marine sides still were able to expand, defend and win the games I played.
- Balance has not shifted to the aliens. In fact, it feels more balanced than 4.0a currently does.
- Diversity and choice has shot up for the alien side.
My verdict? It works. It really does. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good to see some positive feedback creeping through for this, anyone else played on these servers that wanna share their thoughts ?
Comments
One upgrade per hive
Focus / Cloak / SoF skulk would be hell <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The only way I foresee balancing upgrades with allowing multiple upgrade per chamber would be that additional chambers would be required. I.E. if there are four DC's, you get one LVL 3 upgrade and one LVL1 upgrade. In order to have a full lvl 3 upgrade for all three traits, you'd have to have 12 of the chamber. That may help balance b/c of the massive res investment.
The original idea - You can choose any upgrade, it is level 3, at one hive you choose one upgrade , at two hives 2 upgrades etc. Good idea, it would make some spam areas a little too powerful though. remedy is to increase the cost of all chambers (but OC's) to 15 res. This way, the ocs can still be built for 10 as per usual, but shouldnt a benefit givign structure like a dc or sc be a little more? I only say 15 because theres no more of that crazy 54 res fade kind of number going on. So any number between 12 and 15 would be cool.
I think a few marine things should need to be tweaked though..... Not goign to sya anything yet, but alot of things should be obvious. Imagine a start game focus rush - GG. I would like to see an armory like area in some maps where you can take a gun off a rack or something... hehe I could imagine a shotgun behidn some glass [USE IN CASE OF EMERGENCY]
This idea has my support and seems like a "natural" direction for NS.
But there are a lot of versions on this thread, which is the one to go with?
The poll in this forum, and the main thrust of the arguement in this thread, is based around the idea on page one of this thread.
*gets off old rusty bandwagon and gets on this new shiney one*
Anyways nice to see the vote is going ~80% in favour of a change
oh and while I'm here <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=72182' target='_blank'>clickey!</a>
One reason I DON'T like it is that it would mess up the strategy-counter-strategy idea. Granted, the current system doesn't work all that well, because the game is too fast for this to work. But still, if aliens can have any upgrade, then basically there no reason for the comm to work to counter any particular chamber.
The real reason for DMS is simply the inexperience and disorganization of public players. Good alien teams can make virtually any chamber choice work.
But i really like this idea and i hope the devs listen and at least try it out...please?
<a href='http://www.modns.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=550' target='_blank'>Unchain the Chambers</a>
It does all the changes listed in the initial post.
Word on that. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> I gotta say that skulks get plastered on the walls most of the time. They could use a boost. Thummmmmbs up!!!
Apart from having all the chambers unlocked AND free choice of evolving what you want in any way you want (duuh, come on...with the rescosts involved this is NOT unbalanced), have a fourth chamber which allows the aliens to unlock a new upgrade slot for a rather heavy cost...the price would also vary depending on what life form you are...
So a skulk would perhaps cost 10 or so res to unlock a 4th upgrade slot while it'd cost perhaps 40 or so for an onos...and if you evolve into something else after having unlucked any extra skill slots, you lose ALL those extra slots...so there will be no way for a skulk to unlock 4 extra slots and then evolve to an onos with a total of 7 upgrade slots...
And once again, I can't see how this will be imbalanced, when taking the insane rescosts involved...
Second, the khaara ARE supposed to adapt slowly to their environment and situation. Thus the longer they manage to stay alive the stronger they should become.
I didn't read everyone's replies but the two above mine definitely sound like poppycock and threadjacks... talk about the original post... would you....please?
Personally, I just drop MC first and tell my teammates to learn how to use it or SUYF, DMS games are bor-ing.
Otherwise, I didn't read all 12 pages of the topic, but this might have been suggested. Unchain the chambers, but still keep them linked to hives. For example, the first hive can be linked to one chamber, leaving its cost at 10, but both other chambers would cost 20 as long as they don't have a hive to link themselves to.
One thing I'm really afraid is that hives are losing importance. First, they've been unlinked from evolutions, now they might be unlinked to upgrades. Basically, that second hive would be mostly for leaping and eventually bile bomb and umbra. And the 3rd hive is already useless enough to be totally forgotten if it happens.
The only compensating thing I can think of is to force aliens to have more hives by making their spawn rate more important and having hives placed only to ensure survival.
The aliens could cloak, teleport, and heal, however that's 30 res not going into other important area's so by getting 3 chambers you could have built 2 res towers, or nearly another hive, it's not like the aliens could suddenly chamber up the whole map.
All I have to say is.. WOW.
It definitely boosts alien teamwork. And makes them more viable.. Of the games we played Aliens won half, Marines won half.
It's a great change.
Imagine being able to evolve into a Fade or an Onos ALL AT FIRST HIVE! I could not see that working.
We have no idea if it will be unbalancing unless we try it out. It's not like the alien side would start with 3 of every chamber already built; getting all of them is an investment of 90 res spread over numerous people, who won't be able to Fade, drop other nodes or put up a 2nd hive. Aliens in early game are NOT swimming in resources. In any case these points have been brought up before.
It's great to see a plugin for unchained chambers appearing on certain servers. From the sound of things, it's adding a lot to the game and not causing the imbalance that some have claimed it would produce. Keep the comments coming in guys; the devs are bound to take notice sooner or later <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
- The early alien game is boosted nicely. It's not too much however; marine sides still were able to expand, defend and win the games I played.
- Balance has not shifted to the aliens. In fact, it feels more balanced than 4.0a currently does.
- Diversity and choice has shot up for the alien side.
My verdict? It works. It really does.
All I have to say is.. WOW.
It definitely boosts alien teamwork. And makes them more viable.. Of the games we played Aliens won half, Marines won half.
It's a great change. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Well I've played a few games on servers with the plugin, and my experiances so far have been that:
- The early alien game is boosted nicely. It's not too much however; marine sides still were able to expand, defend and win the games I played.
- Balance has not shifted to the aliens. In fact, it feels more balanced than 4.0a currently does.
- Diversity and choice has shot up for the alien side.
My verdict? It works. It really does. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good to see some positive feedback creeping through for this, anyone else played on these servers that wanna share their thoughts ?