It seems that reducing the team handicap variables could solve some of these problems. As it stand now, pub play may be too "fast-paced" for the average NSPlayer. If we were to cut the damage of both teams in half, it should slow down the gameplay enough for them to play, without disturbing balance too much. Since this is already part of NS, it's only a question of server admins turning it on.
First, I'm not suprised that it took someone like PseudoKnight to set the topic right with the improper use of "vet = skill, pub = nub". I won't delve into it anymore than that as he did a good job of doing what I was about to do.
Second, I'll be looking forward to my next game with Squishy, as I don't recall him doing quite as well as he likes to say. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It seems that reducing the team handicap variables could solve some of these problems. As it stand now, pub play may be too "fast-paced" for the average NSPlayer. If we were to cut the damage of both teams in half, it should slow down the gameplay enough for them to play, without disturbing balance too much. Since this is already part of NS, it's only a question of server admins turning it on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You can try that hypothesis with mp_teamonehandicap/mp_teamtwohandicap or whatever they're called.
Well, I stopped reading on page 2, so pardon me if I repeat somebody.
The solution is simple in theory. Just make separate game modes. This is no new Idea. It has already been attempted in prevois NS versions (turney mode = FF on ).
So why do not just balance the game in different Modes.
This would require to change setings in some fundamental area of the game. The res income must be balanced for 6 vs 6 on clan games and for 10 vs 10 on pub games. (as they tend to be bigger. Lower player numbers usually starts combat mode anyway).
Then tweak the the stats differently for both modes. E.g. armor or Hitpoint values, weapon damadge, etc. Many diferent factors that can be adjusted.
Its really not so difficult.
On the other hand, maybe Flayra is onto this already. Perhaps the ominous NEW system is some kind of dynamic program that changes game stats and values according to the number of players? Who knows.......
The problem with making the settings different for public games and clan games is that if you've spent all your time practicing in one mode why would you want to handicap yourself by playing in the other? People would stick to those modes and forget the rest and eventually one style of play would become obsolete.
When I said that clanner aren't all in it just to win and don't care about fun obviously that was just a generalisation and there are exceptions to every rule. Thanks goes to Squishy for posting right after my previous post and correcting my that error for me...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->he problem with making the settings different for public games and clan games is that if you've spent all your time practicing in one mode why would you want to handicap yourself by playing in the other? People would stick to those modes and forget the rest and eventually one style of play would become obsolete. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would one style become obsolete?
Pub play would certainly not be in danger of this as there is the big newcomer influx. And clanners will be clanners. So if you want to become competetive, do it and (to use clanner terminology) "adjust" to the new level. Also, the ocasional clanners sense for 1337ness would be satisfied. ( <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> no offense, just kidding. )
I suggest making NS for 8 v 8. Then 10 v 10 and then 12 v 12. So clanners can get used to the gradual change. And it would be more close to the pub games (14 v 14). I think 6 v 6 isn't the right number, because hardly any pubs are 6 v 6. Normally only clan games stay at 6 v 6.
Thinking about it Legat, you're probably right. I think I underestimated some peoples need to be seen as doing the '1337' thing and 'taking it to the next level'. I still believe that the clan style would die out in as clanners would play pubs for fun, non-clanners would always be on pub, eventually everyone would get used to pub style play.
Its possible the clanner types would prefer to play on pub style too because if the others in the server are (generally) less skilled they will be able to own that server... everyone likes to feel godlike every so often.
Problem: it is impossible (or nearly so) to balance NS for both clan and public play.
Cause(s):<ol type='1'><li>Public play often involves entirely different tactics than clan play<ul><li>Public players are less effective at skills that require a considerable amount of practice to perfect - assuming they're even told it exists (ex: bunnyhopping).</li><li>Since pub teams can assume that no one uses said learned skills, balance changes to those skills can only break pub balance. Similarly, altering the game to be balanced <i>without</i> those learned skills makes the tactics overpowered.</li></ul></li><li>Clan games are much smaller, and the balance of NS does not scale evenly (i.e. small games -> aliens, large games -> marines).</li></ol>Solution: <ol type='1'><li>Close the gap between average pub players and hardcore clan players by providing means for pubbers to compete without weeks of practice. For instance, take bunnyhopping. Technically, it is an exploit that has become established, enshrined as canon, and cherished by the clan community. Yet it takes hours of dedicated practice to even be reasonable at, and months to use effectively in battle. Yet all it does is provide a moderate (but vital) speed increase. Why not eliminate bunnyhopping, and increase the aliens' speed an equivalent amount? Clanners will still have the mobility they need to survive, and pubbers don't have to bust their balls for weeks just to make the skulk an effective lifeform. Everyone wins except for the people who feel they need bunnyhopping to prop up their inflated egos. </li><li>An easy solution: handicap games based on the number of players. If NS is balanced for 6v6, give aliens a res % penalty for smaller games and a bonus for larger games. Tweak the handicap at each level until a 50% win ratio is attained.</li></ol>
The problem as I see it is the lack of clans in the low-medium part of the spectrum. This makes the transition to a hard-core clan player much harder. To be able to start playing clan games you will at the moment try to make your way into an already established clan, which is almost impossible as reqruiting through pub playing just isnt happening.
If a couple of low-medium skilled players start a team they will have to face loss after loss to the established clans as they have to competition at their skill level.
This creates a community which, as already stated earlier in the thread, is divided between high-skill clans on one side and the rest on the other. Erase that border, or make it easier to pass customs and much will improve.
This is all generally speaking though, I know many public-only players which are quite good, as well as a couple of clans that are really lousy.
[edit] anyway, what I'm trying to say is that hard-coding a solution to this problem would be to cure the symptoms, not address the foundamental flaw of this (otherwise) great community.
i have to agree that vets are very good players, but on the server I play on it doesnt make a difference because many player are just as skilled as the vets.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Sandstorm+Apr 28 2004, 10:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sandstorm @ Apr 28 2004, 10:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It seems that reducing the team handicap variables could solve some of these problems. As it stand now, pub play may be too "fast-paced" for the average NSPlayer. If we were to cut the damage of both teams in half, it should slow down the gameplay enough for them to play, without disturbing balance too much. Since this is already part of NS, it's only a question of server admins turning it on. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Your intentions aside, you really should do more research and thinking before posting ideas like this one.
iInce we are talking about the average NSPlayer, if all damage is halved, then marines would get utterly owned most of the time. Why? As of now, it takes 9 bullets to kill a vanilla skulk. Let's say that on average a skulk will get hit with x bullets a second while trying to get to the marine, and after he reaches the marine and is in melee range, he will only get hit with x/5 bullets per second. Let's also assume that once the skulk gets into melee range, he'll land y bites a second.
Ok, so converting that to damage, a skulk will eat 10x damage a second on approach, then when he finally gets into bite range he eats 2x damage a second while dealing out 75y damage a second whre y is the number of vites landed a second.
Let's say that the skulk lands one bite a second, with no upgrades for either side, and that he lands the first bite the instance he enters melee range (so that means he'll only need one mroe second to kill the marine), then total damage taken for the skulk is 10x*(time-taken-to-get-to-marine) + 2x*(1).
Now, let's recalculate this with all damage being halved. With everything else the same (such as time needed to run to marine) the skulk will need 3 more bites to kill the marine once he gets into melee range, BUT he takes a lot less damage while running in! The new formula is 5x*(time-taken-to-get-to-marine) + x*(3).
So if the marine can land an average of 5 bullets a seconds on the skulk when the skulk is approaching, and it takes 1.5 seconds for the skulk to get into melee range, then with the normal formula, the skulks would have taken 75 damage before getting the first bite in. Then he would take another 10 damage before killing the marine. With the damage halved the skulk would only take 38 damage before reaching the marine, and then will take 15 more damage before killing the marines. That's a difference of 85-53=32 damage!
For those of you who can't follow the math, what all this boils down to is that Skulks have a MASSIVE advantage up close (and there's no knockback because NSPlayers don't know how to take advantage of it) and also skulks don't CARE what their own damage is as they are running in (because their damage output=0 when outside of melee range!), they just care about how much damage the marine is doing do them.
Now that I have proven why skulks will own marines if all damage is halved, there are also other issues, like marines would run out of ammo way too quickly becuase everything takes twice the amount of bullets to kill. Anyways, this post has gotten waaay too long.
I'm hesitant to suggest anything that would bring "down" skilled players. I'd prefer to suggest some methods in bringing the lesser skilled "up". In this instance the suggestion is to remove bunny-hopping for aliens and balance accordingly. While I hate to take something so well deserved from veteran players, this is something to seriously consider. I can only imagine the compensation techniques that experienced players will perform. Instead of using pure speed with a repetitive movement technique to get in close, maneuvering amongst the obstacles for cover and surprise will become more important. But I agree that skulk base speed would need to be <b>slightly</b> boosted if this change were to be implemented.
I would like to hear some other suggestions along the lines of boosting skill/communication amongst new and lesser-skilled players. Working on making the interface more intuitive and informative is a good step, but what other areas can this be addressed?
If we play with the damage a whole bunch were just gonna end up with having to totally rebalance the game for both pubs and clanners.
One of the still outstanding problems with balancing the game for both pubs and clanners in the simple fact that pub games rarely play thier whole durration in 6v6. Since the team advantages stacks dependent on the ammount of players in the game (the bigger the game the greater the marine advantage; I'm not going into the math right now, just trust me) it becomes difficult to say weather x balance issue is clan/pub related or really team size related (as pubs generally play with larger teams).
Therefore I present <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=69100' target='_blank'>this</a> idea which I belive, properly tweaked, could effectivly balance the game for all team sizes, hopefully bridging the gap between clan play and pub play to some degree (as my idea would have no effect on clan play what so ever)
The best way to balance this game is to make it easy to be a good player, but extreamly hard to be a great player. Highten the curve a little bit.
Somthing like (as example) auto-aiming bites would make the finess of alien melee much easier for a newer player to master, while not giving any actual advatage for the clanner.
Now, maybe alot of clanners would hate this, because this would mean their skill is duplicated by someone with out it... but... that is the whole problem. Skill is to extream in this game. It shows through much to much. In other games like DoD (i dont play CS) a clan vs a non-clan is still a close game. But in this game, little things make all the diffrence in the world.
Make the soldiers/aliens easier to do what their doing, and people will have a chance to focus on thier tactics more and not on their accuracy and sight limitations.
I also think making fun & powerful the same thing would do so much to help the game. If winning is what u find fun.. great. But, many pubers like to play with "toys" that NS has that no other game has. Cloaking for example is somthing that comes up everyonce in awhile. If MT was removed and cloaking was good in early & late game, pubers could really get into "tactics" alot more cuz its fun.
I really like your idea swift spear, makes alot of sense to me.
Not keen on the auto-aim idea or (to a certain extent anyway) the removal of bunny hopping. I don't think anyone should be punished for being good, the hours of practice they get should be rewarded. One of the things I love most about HL and its mods is that there is always ways you can improve and you can ascend to the heady hights of l337ness, I give up on games that I can't improve on, whats the point? It loses all challenge.
Someone who has a good aim, who has worked for the aim, shouldn't have that taken away from them.
The bunny hopping I can understand a bit... it would be frustrating because it's nice using your skill to do things that others can't (and removing BHing isn't too easy either). However using terrain skillfully to not be shot is just as skillfull as bouncing around so fast you can't be aimed at... in fact in a way its better because an extremely skilled shot can still get you while you bounce around while someone who takes a bit more care can't be shot by the most god-like vets or the newest of the newb.
Again, <b>I really like Swift Spears idea</b>. Its worth reading.
u shouldnt change the whole game just because better players can own newer playes...thats just stupid. alot of the ppl that play on pubs r very good and could easily join a clan so saying pubbers are all noobs is totally wrong. instead of changing the damage or spawning system why dont the pubbers just get better at playing it the way it is??? its not fair to everyone to change the game for some ppl that cant learn to play better.
I dont think they should get rid of the ability to get better at the game all together. Just lessen the curve a little. Right now, NS has such extreams between its good and bad players due to its complexity. (lots of things to be good at or bad at)
Hands down, 3 newbs should kill 1 vet in an equel setting. (as difficult as that is to describe in NS with no equal settings) .. but right now, a vet can take down an entire team.
When you make the game easier to get to "good at the game" status.. and much harder to get to the "i am worth 2 normal players" ... then the good players have that much more to work towards, and are looked at THAT much better. There not looked at as arogant people .. just good people. (fewer l337 with less potency to them makes feelings about them change)
Sorry to be pessimistic but after playing ns for as long as I have, I have come to the conclusion that this game will never reach the level of balance you guys, and myself, hoped for.
The first and most essential factor is quite simply the teams: the units/classes within NS are too varied; this is <b>NOT</b> an FPS, this is a mix of RTS and FPS which creates so many possible possibilities/scenarios/eventualities that it's almost unreal.
You cannot compare this game to CS, DOD or TFC. These are different types of games.
You need to accept that the style of this game is not a straight fps; in an ideal world all players on the team would work together to execute planned strategies with some form of unity. If this happened on both sides then we'd see NS in a different light.
But you cannot make random people from around the world work together like this, for a variety of obvious reasons.
But in CS... look, you need to get away from the idea of comparing it to other games - lets just take the example of a CS public server to reiterate my point.
There is no denying that people play for themselves and due to the style of the game, ONE person can win an entire round with a single clip of ammo. There is no team strategy needed. You play for yourself and have control over your whole game.
The game is ENTIRELY different and any further comparisons need to be ignored from this point on.
So, basically, you need to take the view of NS being a unique genre, where balance in the environement it operates in is very limited. Nothing can change this without a major alteration to NS.
However, this does not make it a bad game, or one you wouldnt want to play, this is where you need to look from the perspective of making it as balanced as possible without seeking/believing in total balancing.
There is no easy way to do a complete analysis and evaluation of Natural Selection, it requires a lot of effort, which I certainly don't have time/effort for right now.
<b><u>However I think there are a few obvious issues that can be pointed out:</u></b>
Firstly, marine is FAR too easy to get in to, a brand new marine easily owns a brand new skulk, which leads to them contimuing to play marine as playing alien is a lot harder.
Even someone who cant aim that well can land 9 bullets on a skulk, particularly in 3.4..
This has lead to the situation we see now when if theres any 'team stacking' then 9 times out of ten it is marine.
Alien is difficult to pick up when you're new. Even 'average' players tend to take marine in my experience, because early game alien is difficult.
Think of how many awesome marines you can name.
Now think of world class skulks. There are so few in comparison.
Admittedly, one of the key points raised in this thread earlier has a part to play in that: bunnyhopping.
Call it what you want; an exploit, a skill, it doesn't matter, it's part of the HL engine and in my opinion its needed for skulks to compete.
So ofcourse you then face the problem where the benefits are met by the whole problem of the fact it's not easy to learn; not necessarily technically, but who's going to teach everyone?
This lack of alien play has lead to a severe lack of general alien ability and chances to explore evolution based classes with new upgrades.
Now the whole pubber/vet thing..
I'm sorry but this to me is one big whine with a few exceptions. If there are a whole team of Veterans playing against Joe Public then yeah that's pretty annoying because it makes for a crap game.
However one Veteran playing well for a team, well that's life, they are obviously a good player, please just deal with it. They have put the practice in to be decent, why don't you do the same?
The perception that EVERY Veteran is a sole rambo rambo rambo is not entirely true, however I do feel that it would benefit the scene if more Veterans used their ingames resources (particularly as alien) to the use of the team.
But there are two sides to every story; why would you bother to help a team of people just hurling abuse at you? Or lets say you were going to build a hive knowing that no-one would bother to protect it, would <b>YOU</b> bother? Honestly?
So essentially there needs to be give and take if anyone is to get anywhere.
<u><b>Conclusion</b></u> I've rambled on for far too long now, but for those of you that gave up ages ago and are looking for a brief summary of my views, here we go: <ul><li>People need to stop comparing NS with other straight FPS games</li><li>Accept NS is limited in how it can be balanced</li><li>Alien is scaring off potential players with its learning curve</li><li>Veterans do not make the game unfair by playing it</li></ul>
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In this instance the suggestion is to remove bunny-hopping for aliens and balance accordingly.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Good lord! Didn't any of you people read anything beyond "remove bunnyhopping?"
I said remove it, <i> then increase the speed to bunnyhopping levels.</i>
So you couldn't bunnyhop, <i>but you wouldn't have to.</i> You'd just jump continuously, and press forward. There! You're bunnyhopping again! Woohoo! Only it wouldn't take weeks of practice to do it well!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However using terrain skillfully to not be shot is just as skillfull as bouncing around so fast you can't be aimed at... in fact in a way its better because an extremely skilled shot can still get you while you bounce around while someone who takes a bit more care can't be shot by the most god-like vets or the newest of the newb.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Exactly. Only being cautious is more intuitive, and therefore easier to learn while being just as hard to master. It would decrease the gap between the skilled and the novices without eliminating it entirely. It takes skulk players only a few minutes before they realize "Hey! Maybe I should hide!" and about an hour to wall climb adequately. Contrast this with bunnyhopping which a) they're never told exists, b) they're never told how to do it, and c) even if they were, they'd have to practice for a few hours first before they could even be considered novices. Which one would <i>you</i> rather have in a game you're new at?
And the argument that clanners for some reason deserve the speed boost because bunnyhopping is hard to do does not hold water. Suppose there was a bug in the game, whereby performing an intricate dance on the floor of marine start, one could enter god mode. Even if the dance required intense concentration and weeks of practice, you all would be screaming for it to be removed. The only difference is that in this case, you happen to know the dance.
<!--QuoteBegin-[SiD]Squishy+Apr 28 2004, 04:03 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> ([SiD]Squishy @ Apr 28 2004, 04:03 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> We play to win so we're better than you.
You want to put the time I put into this game maybe some day you'll be as good as me until that day im better than you and when I say something its not because im an **** its because its true, live with it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> HA HA HA thats pretty funny squishy. You are the almighty of NS arent you?
<!--QuoteBegin-BOBDOLOL+Apr 30 2004, 08:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BOBDOLOL @ Apr 30 2004, 08:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> that's the cockiest thing i've ever heard <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, yes it is bob. Ive played with him a couple of times in the closed beta. Dont get me wrong hes pretty skilled but on the level of romano, eR, and HAM he is not <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
so what everyone is saying is that veterans are the best players out there?
i beg to differ.
to most people...the vet tag isn't a symbol of skill anymore...because i've seen some pretty suckey vets...all they do is talk big but play small. yes most vets are extremely good and skilled...but the ones who aren't just give them a bad name.
almost ALL of the vets that come to the server that i have admin on are cocky sob's who stack marine team and lame everyone.
i'm not trying to bash ALL vets (because there are perfectly legit ones), but from what i've seen in my time of playing ns (since first release day) is that some have very big attitudes and all those do is lame the game (esp if it's a co map, ..blatant spawn camping). that's why pubbers hate vets.
i personally kick vets if they always stack marine team...just once i'd like to see some of them go alien.
and all of this applies to the constie also. except i have a slight bit of respect for them...but the ones that think they are tough s*** because they paid for a game is not cool.
i am totally for supporting ns because it is a great game. someday i'll join the constie status. but just because someone has a "higher" status in the game based on the makers doesn't mean that they can walk all over the other people just wanting to have a good time.
and for the elititsts out there...there is ALWAYS someone better than YOU.
The thing that annoys me about skilled players is that they just sit at the end of the corridor with their LMG and you cannot go down there as a skulk, period. I know their aim would take ages to refine, but when they've got it nothing can stand against them. Whatever your skill lvl you would die. Basically a skilled Marine is a lot better than a skilled alien.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nathanael (UK)+May 2 2004, 05:36 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nathanael (UK) @ May 2 2004, 05:36 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The thing that annoys me about skilled players is that they just sit at the end of the corridor with their LMG and you cannot go down there as a skulk, period. I know their aim would take ages to refine, but when they've got it nothing can stand against them. Whatever your skill lvl you would die. Basically a skilled Marine is a lot better than a skilled alien. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> sometimes....
Comments
Second, I'll be looking forward to my next game with Squishy, as I don't recall him doing quite as well as he likes to say. <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You can try that hypothesis with mp_teamonehandicap/mp_teamtwohandicap or whatever they're called.
The solution is simple in theory.
Just make separate game modes. This is no new Idea. It has already been attempted in prevois NS versions (turney mode = FF on ).
So why do not just balance the game in different Modes.
This would require to change setings in some fundamental area of the game.
The res income must be balanced for 6 vs 6 on clan games and for 10 vs 10 on pub games. (as they tend to be bigger. Lower player numbers usually starts combat mode anyway).
Then tweak the the stats differently for both modes. E.g. armor or Hitpoint values, weapon damadge, etc. Many diferent factors that can be adjusted.
Its really not so difficult.
On the other hand, maybe Flayra is onto this already. Perhaps the ominous NEW system is some kind of dynamic program that changes game stats and values according to the number of players? Who knows.......
When I said that clanner aren't all in it just to win and don't care about fun obviously that was just a generalisation and there are exceptions to every rule. Thanks goes to Squishy for posting right after my previous post and correcting my that error for me...
/me sighs
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Why would one style become obsolete?
Pub play would certainly not be in danger of this as there is the big newcomer influx. And clanners will be clanners.
So if you want to become competetive, do it and (to use clanner terminology) "adjust" to the new level.
Also, the ocasional clanners sense for 1337ness would be satisfied. ( <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> no offense, just kidding. )
asking for clans with 12 players all the time is probably impossible. 8v8, in theory, should not be too hard for them to get.
Its possible the clanner types would prefer to play on pub style too because if the others in the server are (generally) less skilled they will be able to own that server... everyone likes to feel godlike every so often.
Cause(s):<ol type='1'><li>Public play often involves entirely different tactics than clan play<ul><li>Public players are less effective at skills that require a considerable amount of practice to perfect - assuming they're even told it exists (ex: bunnyhopping).</li><li>Since pub teams can assume that no one uses said learned skills, balance changes to those skills can only break pub balance. Similarly, altering the game to be balanced <i>without</i> those learned skills makes the tactics overpowered.</li></ul></li><li>Clan games are much smaller, and the balance of NS does not scale evenly (i.e. small games -> aliens, large games -> marines).</li></ol>Solution: <ol type='1'><li>Close the gap between average pub players and hardcore clan players by providing means for pubbers to compete without weeks of practice. For instance, take bunnyhopping. Technically, it is an exploit that has become established, enshrined as canon, and cherished by the clan community. Yet it takes hours of dedicated practice to even be reasonable at, and months to use effectively in battle. Yet all it does is provide a moderate (but vital) speed increase. Why not eliminate bunnyhopping, and increase the aliens' speed an equivalent amount? Clanners will still have the mobility they need to survive, and pubbers don't have to bust their balls for weeks just to make the skulk an effective lifeform. Everyone wins except for the people who feel they need bunnyhopping to prop up their inflated egos.
</li><li>An easy solution: handicap games based on the number of players. If NS is balanced for 6v6, give aliens a res % penalty for smaller games and a bonus for larger games. Tweak the handicap at each level until a 50% win ratio is attained.</li></ol>
If a couple of low-medium skilled players start a team they will have to face loss after loss to the established clans as they have to competition at their skill level.
This creates a community which, as already stated earlier in the thread, is divided between high-skill clans on one side and the rest on the other. Erase that border, or make it easier to pass customs and much will improve.
This is all generally speaking though, I know many public-only players which are quite good, as well as a couple of clans that are really lousy.
[edit] anyway, what I'm trying to say is that hard-coding a solution to this problem would be to cure the symptoms, not address the foundamental flaw of this (otherwise) great community.
just shining my light on the subject
Your intentions aside, you really should do more research and thinking before posting ideas like this one.
iInce we are talking about the average NSPlayer, if all damage is halved, then marines would get utterly owned most of the time. Why? As of now, it takes 9 bullets to kill a vanilla skulk. Let's say that on average a skulk will get hit with x bullets a second while trying to get to the marine, and after he reaches the marine and is in melee range, he will only get hit with x/5 bullets per second. Let's also assume that once the skulk gets into melee range, he'll land y bites a second.
Ok, so converting that to damage, a skulk will eat 10x damage a second on approach, then when he finally gets into bite range he eats 2x damage a second while dealing out 75y damage a second whre y is the number of vites landed a second.
Let's say that the skulk lands one bite a second, with no upgrades for either side, and that he lands the first bite the instance he enters melee range (so that means he'll only need one mroe second to kill the marine), then total damage taken for the skulk is 10x*(time-taken-to-get-to-marine) + 2x*(1).
Now, let's recalculate this with all damage being halved. With everything else the same (such as time needed to run to marine) the skulk will need 3 more bites to kill the marine once he gets into melee range, BUT he takes a lot less damage while running in! The new formula is 5x*(time-taken-to-get-to-marine) + x*(3).
So if the marine can land an average of 5 bullets a seconds on the skulk when the skulk is approaching, and it takes 1.5 seconds for the skulk to get into melee range, then with the normal formula, the skulks would have taken 75 damage before getting the first bite in. Then he would take another 10 damage before killing the marine. With the damage halved the skulk would only take 38 damage before reaching the marine, and then will take 15 more damage before killing the marines. That's a difference of 85-53=32 damage!
For those of you who can't follow the math, what all this boils down to is that Skulks have a MASSIVE advantage up close (and there's no knockback because NSPlayers don't know how to take advantage of it) and also skulks don't CARE what their own damage is as they are running in (because their damage output=0 when outside of melee range!), they just care about how much damage the marine is doing do them.
Now that I have proven why skulks will own marines if all damage is halved, there are also other issues, like marines would run out of ammo way too quickly becuase everything takes twice the amount of bullets to kill. Anyways, this post has gotten waaay too long.
I would like to hear some other suggestions along the lines of boosting skill/communication amongst new and lesser-skilled players. Working on making the interface more intuitive and informative is a good step, but what other areas can this be addressed?
One of the still outstanding problems with balancing the game for both pubs and clanners in the simple fact that pub games rarely play thier whole durration in 6v6. Since the team advantages stacks dependent on the ammount of players in the game (the bigger the game the greater the marine advantage; I'm not going into the math right now, just trust me) it becomes difficult to say weather x balance issue is clan/pub related or really team size related (as pubs generally play with larger teams).
Therefore I present <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=69100' target='_blank'>this</a> idea which I belive, properly tweaked, could effectivly balance the game for all team sizes, hopefully bridging the gap between clan play and pub play to some degree (as my idea would have no effect on clan play what so ever)
Somthing like (as example) auto-aiming bites would make the finess of alien melee much easier for a newer player to master, while not giving any actual advatage for the clanner.
Now, maybe alot of clanners would hate this, because this would mean their skill is duplicated by someone with out it... but... that is the whole problem. Skill is to extream in this game. It shows through much to much. In other games like DoD (i dont play CS) a clan vs a non-clan is still a close game. But in this game, little things make all the diffrence in the world.
Make the soldiers/aliens easier to do what their doing, and people will have a chance to focus on thier tactics more and not on their accuracy and sight limitations.
I also think making fun & powerful the same thing would do so much to help the game. If winning is what u find fun.. great. But, many pubers like to play with "toys" that NS has that no other game has. Cloaking for example is somthing that comes up everyonce in awhile. If MT was removed and cloaking was good in early & late game, pubers could really get into "tactics" alot more cuz its fun.
Not keen on the auto-aim idea or (to a certain extent anyway) the removal of bunny hopping. I don't think anyone should be punished for being good, the hours of practice they get should be rewarded. One of the things I love most about HL and its mods is that there is always ways you can improve and you can ascend to the heady hights of l337ness, I give up on games that I can't improve on, whats the point? It loses all challenge.
Someone who has a good aim, who has worked for the aim, shouldn't have that taken away from them.
The bunny hopping I can understand a bit... it would be frustrating because it's nice using your skill to do things that others can't (and removing BHing isn't too easy either). However using terrain skillfully to not be shot is just as skillfull as bouncing around so fast you can't be aimed at... in fact in a way its better because an extremely skilled shot can still get you while you bounce around while someone who takes a bit more care can't be shot by the most god-like vets or the newest of the newb.
Again, <b>I really like Swift Spears idea</b>. Its worth reading.
Hands down, 3 newbs should kill 1 vet in an equel setting. (as difficult as that is to describe in NS with no equal settings) .. but right now, a vet can take down an entire team.
When you make the game easier to get to "good at the game" status.. and much harder to get to the "i am worth 2 normal players" ... then the good players have that much more to work towards, and are looked at THAT much better. There not looked at as arogant people .. just good people. (fewer l337 with less potency to them makes feelings about them change)
The first and most essential factor is quite simply the teams: the units/classes within NS are too varied; this is <b>NOT</b> an FPS, this is a mix of RTS and FPS which creates so many possible possibilities/scenarios/eventualities that it's almost unreal.
You cannot compare this game to CS, DOD or TFC. These are different types of games.
You need to accept that the style of this game is not a straight fps; in an ideal world all players on the team would work together to execute planned strategies with some form of unity. If this happened on both sides then we'd see NS in a different light.
But you cannot make random people from around the world work together like this, for a variety of obvious reasons.
But in CS... look, you need to get away from the idea of comparing it to other games - lets just take the example of a CS public server to reiterate my point.
There is no denying that people play for themselves and due to the style of the game, ONE person can win an entire round with a single clip of ammo. There is no team strategy needed. You play for yourself and have control over your whole game.
The game is ENTIRELY different and any further comparisons need to be ignored from this point on.
So, basically, you need to take the view of NS being a unique genre, where balance in the environement it operates in is very limited. Nothing can change this without a major alteration to NS.
However, this does not make it a bad game, or one you wouldnt want to play, this is where you need to look from the perspective of making it as balanced as possible without seeking/believing in total balancing.
There is no easy way to do a complete analysis and evaluation of Natural Selection, it requires a lot of effort, which I certainly don't have time/effort for right now.
<b><u>However I think there are a few obvious issues that can be pointed out:</u></b>
Firstly, marine is FAR too easy to get in to, a brand new marine easily owns a brand new skulk, which leads to them contimuing to play marine as playing alien is a lot harder.
Even someone who cant aim that well can land 9 bullets on a skulk, particularly in 3.4..
This has lead to the situation we see now when if theres any 'team stacking' then 9 times out of ten it is marine.
Alien is difficult to pick up when you're new. Even 'average' players tend to take marine in my experience, because early game alien is difficult.
Think of how many awesome marines you can name.
Now think of world class skulks. There are so few in comparison.
Admittedly, one of the key points raised in this thread earlier has a part to play in that: bunnyhopping.
Call it what you want; an exploit, a skill, it doesn't matter, it's part of the HL engine and in my opinion its needed for skulks to compete.
So ofcourse you then face the problem where the benefits are met by the whole problem of the fact it's not easy to learn; not necessarily technically, but who's going to teach everyone?
This lack of alien play has lead to a severe lack of general alien ability and chances to explore evolution based classes with new upgrades.
Now the whole pubber/vet thing..
I'm sorry but this to me is one big whine with a few exceptions. If there are a whole team of Veterans playing against Joe Public then yeah that's pretty annoying because it makes for a crap game.
However one Veteran playing well for a team, well that's life, they are obviously a good player, please just deal with it. They have put the practice in to be decent, why don't you do the same?
The perception that EVERY Veteran is a sole rambo rambo rambo is not entirely true, however I do feel that it would benefit the scene if more Veterans used their ingames resources (particularly as alien) to the use of the team.
But there are two sides to every story; why would you bother to help a team of people just hurling abuse at you? Or lets say you were going to build a hive knowing that no-one would bother to protect it, would <b>YOU</b> bother? Honestly?
So essentially there needs to be give and take if anyone is to get anywhere.
<u><b>Conclusion</b></u>
I've rambled on for far too long now, but for those of you that gave up ages ago and are looking for a brief summary of my views, here we go:
<ul><li>People need to stop comparing NS with other straight FPS games</li><li>Accept NS is limited in how it can be balanced</li><li>Alien is scaring off potential players with its learning curve</li><li>Veterans do not make the game unfair by playing it</li></ul>
I said remove it, <i> then increase the speed to bunnyhopping levels.</i>
So you couldn't bunnyhop, <i>but you wouldn't have to.</i> You'd just jump continuously, and press forward. There! You're bunnyhopping again! Woohoo! Only it wouldn't take weeks of practice to do it well!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->However using terrain skillfully to not be shot is just as skillfull as bouncing around so fast you can't be aimed at... in fact in a way its better because an extremely skilled shot can still get you while you bounce around while someone who takes a bit more care can't be shot by the most god-like vets or the newest of the newb.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Exactly. Only being cautious is more intuitive, and therefore easier to learn while being just as hard to master. It would decrease the gap between the skilled and the novices without eliminating it entirely. It takes skulk players only a few minutes before they realize "Hey! Maybe I should hide!" and about an hour to wall climb adequately. Contrast this with bunnyhopping which a) they're never told exists, b) they're never told how to do it, and c) even if they were, they'd have to practice for a few hours first before they could even be considered novices. Which one would <i>you</i> rather have in a game you're new at?
And the argument that clanners for some reason deserve the speed boost because bunnyhopping is hard to do does not hold water. Suppose there was a bug in the game, whereby performing an intricate dance on the floor of marine start, one could enter god mode. Even if the dance required intense concentration and weeks of practice, you all would be screaming for it to be removed. The only difference is that in this case, you happen to know the dance.
You want to put the time I put into this game maybe some day you'll be as good as me until that day im better than you and when I say something its not because im an **** its because its true, live with it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
HA HA HA thats pretty funny squishy. You are the almighty of NS arent you?
Yes, yes it is bob. Ive played with him a couple of times in the closed beta. Dont get me wrong hes pretty skilled but on the level of romano, eR, and HAM he is not <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
so what everyone is saying is that veterans are the best players out there?
i beg to differ.
to most people...the vet tag isn't a symbol of skill anymore...because i've seen some pretty suckey vets...all they do is talk big but play small. yes most vets are extremely good and skilled...but the ones who aren't just give them a bad name.
almost ALL of the vets that come to the server that i have admin on are cocky sob's who stack marine team and lame everyone.
i'm not trying to bash ALL vets (because there are perfectly legit ones), but from what i've seen in my time of playing ns (since first release day) is that some have very big attitudes and all those do is lame the game (esp if it's a co map, ..blatant spawn camping). that's why pubbers hate vets.
i personally kick vets if they always stack marine team...just once i'd like to see some of them go alien.
and all of this applies to the constie also. except i have a slight bit of respect for them...but the ones that think they are tough s*** because they paid for a game is not cool.
i am totally for supporting ns because it is a great game. someday i'll join the constie status. but just because someone has a "higher" status in the game based on the makers doesn't mean that they can walk all over the other people just wanting to have a good time.
and for the elititsts out there...there is ALWAYS someone better than YOU.
/whine
I know their aim would take ages to refine, but when they've got it nothing can stand against them. Whatever your skill lvl you would die.
Basically a skilled Marine is a lot better than a skilled alien.
I know their aim would take ages to refine, but when they've got it nothing can stand against them. Whatever your skill lvl you would die.
Basically a skilled Marine is a lot better than a skilled alien. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
sometimes....