The Ultimate Problem With Ns (long)
cocacolaa
Join Date: 2004-04-28 Member: 28269Members
Join Date: 2004-04-28 Member: 28269Members
<div class="IPBDescription">The thread to end all threads</div> Quotation from another topic:
"This was part of my argument about why NS should not be aimed at clan play. If it achieves balance and fun in public play then clan play will work - after all, every clan player started as a pub player."
The problem is that clan players are far more accurate/faster/experienced than pubbers. Clan players find many different (and arguably more effective) ways to play the game - suddenly the weapon that works well in pubs is overpowered when the marine hits 90% of his shots as opposed to 20%. Whereas in pubs an exposed skulk has about a 3 second lifespan, in clan play, he now only has a fraction of a second.
The clanners then call for a solution. The solution would be to power up skulks? Or to tone down LMGs? But then what affect would that have on public play, where average players don't have that kind of aim, or where skulks rarely coordinate ambushes? After you power up skulks, to satisfy the clanners, then the pubbers complain that it takes too many bullets to hit a skulk. Then what happens? (and this is for skulk vs marine - NS has many many more situations than that)
It's definitely a very serious problem, because it creates two incredibly different communities, with drastically different playing styles (there is never a turret factory in base in clan games). Solutions for one community create problems for the other community, creating endless crazy feedback loop! But the gameplay of NS creates this - whether unintentional or not, this is the issue at hand. NS is an absolutely wonderful game, but I don't know how long it can survive this.
Experienced players hate pubbing because while pubbers may not always be competent, the vet still relies on them. It's frustrating to play a strong game, only to ultimately lose because of an inexperienced commander who doesn't upgrade/drop meds (screaming ineffectually for medpacks is VERY frustrating) quickly enough or a gorge drops OCs when DCs are needed, etc. But this doesn't always happen, and this is why vets still 'invade' pubs.
Pubbers hate experienced players. NS is a very fun game when the teams are even, but an experienced player can singlehandedly tip the balance in most public games. One good fade (if his team is competent at the most basic levels, i.e. dropping dcs when needed) can absolutely mow through an entire team - one good marine, with a commander who drops him ammunition/medpack intermittently, can keep an entire team of skulks at bay (i.e. cargo hold on tanith).
Even worse is when one vet goes into the comm chair and the other shoots. Games like this are usually over by 20 kills, 18 of which are by the vet marine who charges on the hive with medpack support. Not fun for pubbers, who then try to go to another hive, only to find that it's been locked down already while they were waiting to spawn. But it's fun "practice" for the veteran.
Pubbers become discouraged when a vet 'ruins' their game. Vets, who - surprisingly - are human, become increasingly elitist and disdainful when no one appreciates their skill. Because, come on, who wants to become good at something, only to become hated for it? NS is a remarkable game at the competitive levels - the teamwork that is required and executed is truly something magical. Many many vets love this, and cannot understand why pubbers "settle" for their pidgin play.
Pubbers hate vets. Vets disrespect pubbers.
So who do you balance for? Pubbers? Or Vets? Ideally, you shouldn't have to 'balance for' either group (Counter-Strike). It's a compliment to the depth and intricacy of the game that this division exists. But too few people rise from pub to vet status, and even fewer vets take the time to teach (teaching someone well requires significant effort/time) a pubber. At the current trend, this gap will ONLY widen, and NS will only lose players when casual players leave because of vets, and vets leave because new, skilled competition comes in at a pitiful trickle. About the only new competition vets get these days is reshuffling of old clan rosters - something which ONLY causes drama and fosters mistrust within the community.
Maybe the BUS will fix this. I can certainly imagine a way. But if pub players and vet players reach some sort of understanding with each other (unite the nations) - that would be a far more pleasant solution.
What this solution is, is what this thread is for. Post your thoughts.
"This was part of my argument about why NS should not be aimed at clan play. If it achieves balance and fun in public play then clan play will work - after all, every clan player started as a pub player."
The problem is that clan players are far more accurate/faster/experienced than pubbers. Clan players find many different (and arguably more effective) ways to play the game - suddenly the weapon that works well in pubs is overpowered when the marine hits 90% of his shots as opposed to 20%. Whereas in pubs an exposed skulk has about a 3 second lifespan, in clan play, he now only has a fraction of a second.
The clanners then call for a solution. The solution would be to power up skulks? Or to tone down LMGs? But then what affect would that have on public play, where average players don't have that kind of aim, or where skulks rarely coordinate ambushes? After you power up skulks, to satisfy the clanners, then the pubbers complain that it takes too many bullets to hit a skulk. Then what happens? (and this is for skulk vs marine - NS has many many more situations than that)
It's definitely a very serious problem, because it creates two incredibly different communities, with drastically different playing styles (there is never a turret factory in base in clan games). Solutions for one community create problems for the other community, creating endless crazy feedback loop! But the gameplay of NS creates this - whether unintentional or not, this is the issue at hand. NS is an absolutely wonderful game, but I don't know how long it can survive this.
Experienced players hate pubbing because while pubbers may not always be competent, the vet still relies on them. It's frustrating to play a strong game, only to ultimately lose because of an inexperienced commander who doesn't upgrade/drop meds (screaming ineffectually for medpacks is VERY frustrating) quickly enough or a gorge drops OCs when DCs are needed, etc. But this doesn't always happen, and this is why vets still 'invade' pubs.
Pubbers hate experienced players. NS is a very fun game when the teams are even, but an experienced player can singlehandedly tip the balance in most public games. One good fade (if his team is competent at the most basic levels, i.e. dropping dcs when needed) can absolutely mow through an entire team - one good marine, with a commander who drops him ammunition/medpack intermittently, can keep an entire team of skulks at bay (i.e. cargo hold on tanith).
Even worse is when one vet goes into the comm chair and the other shoots. Games like this are usually over by 20 kills, 18 of which are by the vet marine who charges on the hive with medpack support. Not fun for pubbers, who then try to go to another hive, only to find that it's been locked down already while they were waiting to spawn. But it's fun "practice" for the veteran.
Pubbers become discouraged when a vet 'ruins' their game. Vets, who - surprisingly - are human, become increasingly elitist and disdainful when no one appreciates their skill. Because, come on, who wants to become good at something, only to become hated for it? NS is a remarkable game at the competitive levels - the teamwork that is required and executed is truly something magical. Many many vets love this, and cannot understand why pubbers "settle" for their pidgin play.
Pubbers hate vets. Vets disrespect pubbers.
So who do you balance for? Pubbers? Or Vets? Ideally, you shouldn't have to 'balance for' either group (Counter-Strike). It's a compliment to the depth and intricacy of the game that this division exists. But too few people rise from pub to vet status, and even fewer vets take the time to teach (teaching someone well requires significant effort/time) a pubber. At the current trend, this gap will ONLY widen, and NS will only lose players when casual players leave because of vets, and vets leave because new, skilled competition comes in at a pitiful trickle. About the only new competition vets get these days is reshuffling of old clan rosters - something which ONLY causes drama and fosters mistrust within the community.
Maybe the BUS will fix this. I can certainly imagine a way. But if pub players and vet players reach some sort of understanding with each other (unite the nations) - that would be a far more pleasant solution.
What this solution is, is what this thread is for. Post your thoughts.
Comments
to be honest, what would be nice to see would be some thing along the lines of NS_ being geared primarily towards clan play as it currently is, and co_ being geared more towards public. I would love to see a co_ tournament, but as it's still in such early stages, this won't happen for a while. combat is meant to be the training grounds for classic, so let people train up their aim and skills, and then go onto classic servers to learn about that style - they already have the fundamental skills of aiming etc sorted, so don't need to be worrying about that stuff.
an ideal solution, but one that will never happen
you will always get the split in the community, and there is rarely any thing you can do about it, especially in a game as diverse as NS
it is, however, a much simpler game. (not a bash on CS)
this guy has a lot of good points. a lot of pub players are verrrrrrrry stubborn about their strategies - the same way that clan players are stubborn about theirs. so even if players learn in co_ and move to ns_, there's still another bridge to gap.
i think it's what this guy is getting at.
Although clan members do have more time to develop stratagies and ideas.
A balance change usually has completely different effects in the two communities - it's difficult to balance such an intricate and ambitious game to satisfy both communities. And you have to satisfy both communities - you cannot simply choose vets over pubbers or vice versa.
And even if you balanced for pubbers now, and made all the vets quit the game, a new breed of vets would arise - just by playing the game more/understanding the game better/developing skills. And then the same problem would arise, where two very different playing styles are created, with increased teamwork/skill (clan play)creates one set of unbalances, while the casual pub player (who's style of play is markedly different) creates another set.
Example:
Pubbers say HMGs need to be cheaper because the commander doesn't have enough res to hand out enough HMGs to break out of aliens-surrounding-base situations. Thus, cheaper HMGs means more players can have them, giving the marines a better chance at a comeback win in public games.
Flayra makes HMGs cheaper.
Clan players, who are much more efficient at managing res and upgrades, get HMGs far too early in the game and in such great quantities, that marines absolutely dominate the aliens (read: jetpack/hmg rush of 1.04) Competitive play is useless as every game results in a 1-1 tie.
There isn't really anything that can be done about it though, you can't just seperate the vets from the virgins, you will just end up with the newbs hiding in there servers afraid to step into the deep end and hoping none of the vets fancy 'a bit of a laugh'. In the end this game has to be aimed at a certain type of user, hardcore gamer types who are willing to practice and become vets (a small if important proportion of the gamers out there) or the mass market (where alot of Llama's will be hiding).
I personally think this mod should be aimed at the hardcore market, quite happy to have combat mode for people to train up on but in the end this is a mod, not a retail game and it's not about dumbing down and appealing to the 'average' consumer. This can target the niche market and be something people can be proud to play.
All my favourite games have had either a high learning curve or tricks that you graduate to. HL is fairly easy to play but it's played completely differently by a newb to a vet as the recently released videa of HL being completed in an hour shows. Specialising in the more expert gamer doesn't necessarily mean the game will be doomed to a small cult following, a tiny community which collapses at the first push. It just has to be properly marketed, if all of the top players endorsed it then you'd get people playing just because they enjoy the competition... the only danger with that is it's possibly people might forget that old adage "it's only a game".
Still, I'd prefer that to being forced out by an ocean of new players that are more than happy to continue playing entry-level NS instead of taking the game further. We'd be swamped by the scum of the online gaming community and the game would be pretty much dead...
Thats how I see it anyway, just my opinion.
(ps, I really like this topic, nice stuff Coca)
[Edited cos I repeated a word... I've probably missed more mistakes too tho I'm at work so not gonna search for them... must remember to preview next time]
Yes the vet - pub gap is widening and this is mainly down to power hungry people who think theyre better then everyone else (not all vets but some). But vets do have a higher standard of playing and ive joined a pub game before where a whole bunch of vets were going up against a team of pubs, and then complaining because they arent putting up a good enough fight.
All this crap about the game being biased towards clan gaming rather then public gaming is rubbish. If you are in a server with a bunch of publics then the alien side is just going to be just as crap/good as the marine side, so marines wouldnt be able to hit a skulk but then the skulk might not be able to hit the marine. You will always play in a server that will have a player who is probably way above your skill, and this is very very good but can get frustrating at times. This is down to the point that if you were playing people of your same level all the time you played you wouldnt get any better at the game.
Topics like this are usually started by people who have tried playing but suck at it and put it down to the game (not meaning to cause offense to the topic starter).
This game is fine as it is where vet - pub stances are concerned. The only problem is the balancing issues, but i wont get into that because that can fill a thread all on its own.
For marines, commanders need to have more power over their marines, namely the ability to punish those who refuse to listen. New, more functional emotes(especially "Weld Me" with an icon over the marine's head) would be nice. Aliens especially need changes in this area though. More info on the minimap(parasites, structures/aliens under attack), better emotes(function declarations, backup requests, etc... Maybe showing up on the team's HUD like the structure notifications), that sort of thing.
Pub players aren't all these can't-aim-for-s**t, no experience newbies you know. Your post presume that while a clanner can have 90% accuracy, a pub player can only get 20%? That's a pile of crap, to be honest. I've seen pub players with nigh-on perfect accuracy, winning strategies and excellent teamplay. Making such a statement that all vets are better at the game than pub players is ridiculous.
As i said before, i'm a strict pub player, i don't want to be involved with competetive play at all, but i've played NS for over a year now, and i like to think i'm actually knowledgeable about it. I know about teamwork, predicting the other team, and i know each map like the back of my hand. Yet because i'm a pub player, this can't be true, right?
You make all of us pubbers sound like brainless morons who only just downloaded the game and can't aim, well, you're wrong. I've seen excellent skill from clans just as i've seen exceptional skill from pub players, the only divide between us, as far as i can see, is that us pubber play the game for different reasons. We play for fun, clanners play to win.
Pub players aren't all these can't-aim-for-s**t, no experience newbies you know. Your post presume that while a clanner can have 90% accuracy, a pub player can only get 20%? That's a pile of crap, to be honest. I've seen pub players with nigh-on perfect accuracy, winning strategies and excellent teamplay. Making such a statement that all vets are better at the game than pub players is ridiculous.
As i said before, i'm a strict pub player, i don't want to be involved with competetive play at all, but i've played NS for over a year now, and i like to think i'm actually knowledgeable about it. I know about teamwork, predicting the other team, and i know each map like the back of my hand. Yet because i'm a pub player, this can't be true, right?
You make all of us pubbers sound like brainless morons who only just downloaded the game and can't aim, well, you're wrong. I've seen excellent skill from clans just as i've seen exceptional skill from pub players, the only divide between us, as far as i can see, is that us pubber play the game for different reasons. We play for fun, clanners play to win. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree wholeheartedly. In my experience both as a player and server admin, the game is the most fun when people aren't in that "hardcore" mood. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we just screw around or what have you, but I find that the game is much more enjoyable when I don't have to worry about whether I have a certain upgrade at 2 minutes or 2.2 minutes. Relax, take a deep breath, and just enjoy the game without trying to utterly dominate every second of every round.
Think of it this way, NS is gone if people stop joining. It's inevitable that people will quit NS and if there's hardly any ppl joining then the playercount is going to get smaller and smaller.
If the clans don't like it...Well, I can't see a solution.
I think clans are for people who want to be competitive, and pub for fun. I'll never forget when the HA rines were seiging our last hive, the admin put on disco mode and 0 grav, and we had such a blast, cuz everyone was out of control (especially the JPs) and on top of that, the admin turn on friendly fire, and so marines started turning on each other, all the while we were all glowing in bright disco colors! It was so fun.
So, Ill say it again:
Pub = Fun
Clan = Competitive
Think of it this way, NS is gone if people stop joining. It's inevitable that people will quit NS and if there's hardly any ppl joining then the playercount is going to get smaller and smaller.
If the clans don't like it...Well, I can't see a solution.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's not...
The original poster was dead on.. There needs to be a balance struck by the game for pubbers and clanners.
What you said above is true.. if people stop joining NS will die.. However, in any game once you have mastered the game playing against people of that skill and forming a team of those people is fun, and rewarding. Having leagues where those people can meet and compete is also fun and rewarding to the clanners..
So if the game is out of whack at different skill levels, then it needs to be fixed, not have one side be the only ones to control it's development.
I suspect the Dev's know this, and are working as hard as they can to improve the situation..
A Hazard Room-ish thing would be great.
No-one is saying that the only skilled players are clanners (in fact plenty of clanners really aren't that special either) <i>but</i> you have to admit that there is a higher concentration of skilled players in clans than there are on pubs yeah? Thats just natural.
Skill does affect balancing for reasons explained earlier (if you want them just read the original few posts, no need for me to repeat myself).
However, Umbraed Monkey is very right in that the number of players affects games as well... theres nothing I can suggest for that though without forcing people to join servers they don't want to... which would just be daft.
You want to put the time I put into this game maybe some day you'll be as good as me until that day im better than you and when I say something its not because im an **** its because its true, live with it.
Just make somehow sure the vets / noobs dont all stack up in one team, try asking them or the admin I guess..
Oh and some sort of Hazard Training would be cool <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> , just an ingame tutorial explaining all buildings/lifeforms/upgrades and perhaps giving some tips'n hints
sv_clan 0 (pub game)
-LMG more powerful
-Skulk slightly less HP
-Gear cost brought down somewhat (maybe)
sv_clan 1
-LMG less powerful
-Skulk faster/more HP
-Marine tech costs more, but RTs cost less
These are just examples. Combat will also be changed accordingly. Spores less powerful than in classic, etc.
1) Public players and clan players play in drastically different styles. Can you deny this?
2) I'm sure you know the concepts of teamwork and cover, but how often have you played under the situation where all 5 other your teammates knew it too? AND your opponents? How often have you been challenged to improve your game in pubs? How many times has one minor mistake cost you the entire game?
It's not easy, and it's a stressful level of play, but in addition to different styles, clanners and pubbers just play at different LEVELs. Clanners invest a ridiculous amount of time into improving and learning about the game.
The talent has to come from somewhere - there's definitely excellent public players. But even the best public recruits have to learn how to play differently in order to win in competition.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I agree wholeheartedly. In my experience both as a player and server admin, the game is the most fun when people aren't in that "hardcore" mood. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying we just screw around or what have you, but I find that the game is much more enjoyable when I don't have to worry about whether I have a certain upgrade at 2 minutes or 2.2 minutes. Relax, take a deep breath, and just enjoy the game without trying to utterly dominate every second of every round. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't know if there's a quote that highlights my point any clearer. Pubbers and clanners play for different reasons, and have very different mindsets about the game. The game needs to be fun for the casual player as well as the clan player. There is a beauty to the game when you get locked in a 3-hour 32-person brawl where no one leaves the server, and there is a different beauty when you are stress-tested to your limits and emerge victorious with your clan. I don't discount either style of play - there will always be players who want to play for fun, and others who want to take it to another level. But both camps need to recognize each other's viewpoints, and be more thoughtful with their criticisms.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I've seen pub players with nigh-on perfect accuracy, winning strategies and excellent teamplay.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Winning Strategies? Against an opposing team that will occasionally lose and gain random players, a team who might start leaving when they begin to lose, a team that is rarely 100% coordinated - not to mention inconsistencies in skill level.
The easiest way for pubbers to experience clan play is through PUGs. And veterans singlehandedly romp pubs far far far far more often than a fresh pubber will be the winning factor in a pug.
But NS makes people stubborn - because any amount of knowledge that you do gain, you feel that you've earned it. No one wants to hear that their strategies are laughable, whether it be the truth or not. In Counter-Strike, strategy only really develops at the very competitive levels of gameplay. In NS, you cannot blame newbiecommanderx for falling in love with his electrified turret rush, even if he's played for a year with the same strat. It's a personal offense when someone tells you that TFs are nub at this point. But you are exposed to strategy from the first time you play an ns_ map, and your perceptions of what is good and bad is strongly influenced by the environment you play under.
Pubbers very often make assertions about good/skilled/superb without having played against/with other communities to really find out if they are good/skilled/superb.
There is a certain, rather infamous forum-goer, who has recently gone through a remarkable transformation to vet-hater to clanner. It's not out of the question. But it's proven unusually difficult in this community for the good, intelligent public players to shed their pride and take their game to another level. Why?
sv_clan 0 (pub game)
-LMG more powerful
-Skulk slightly less HP
-Gear cost brought down somewhat (maybe)
sv_clan 1
-LMG less powerful
-Skulk faster/more HP
-Marine tech costs more, but RTs cost less
These are just examples. Combat will also be changed accordingly. Spores less powerful than in classic, etc.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought of this, but making a transition from pub to clan play is difficult enough with facing improved teamwork every night, but having to keep 2 sets of stats in your head determined by which type of game you are playing is too much.
Same reason that there shouldn't be 2 sets of stats for Combat.. moving from one to the other would be a pain at that point.. (was the 6 lmg bullets to kill a skulk or 9?)
This topic, by the way, needs less of defending each style of play. The forums are already filled with a year's worth of such posts.
This intent of this thread was to gain understanding about both playing groups, and hopefully fix the fact that:
Pubbers think vets are arrogant **** who ruin their games.
Vets think pubbers are mindless nubs who are holding back the game.
Pub players aren't all these can't-aim-for-s**t, no experience newbies you know. Your post presume that while a clanner can have 90% accuracy, a pub player can only get 20%? That's a pile of crap, to be honest. I've seen pub players with nigh-on perfect accuracy, winning strategies and excellent teamplay. Making such a statement that all vets are better at the game than pub players is ridiculous.
As i said before, i'm a strict pub player, i don't want to be involved with competetive play at all, but i've played NS for over a year now, and i like to think i'm actually knowledgeable about it. I know about teamwork, predicting the other team, and i know each map like the back of my hand. Yet because i'm a pub player, this can't be true, right?
You make all of us pubbers sound like brainless morons who only just downloaded the game and can't aim, well, you're wrong. I've seen excellent skill from clans just as i've seen exceptional skill from pub players, the only divide between us, as far as i can see, is that us pubber play the game for different reasons. We play for fun, clanners play to win. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You'd be amazed by all the people I see empty a LMG 30 ft from me and TOTALLY miss...
Pubbers think vets are arrogant **** who ruin their games.
Vets think pubbers are mindless nubs who are holding back the game.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Actually, using the terminology "pubbers" and "vets" only causes problems as you have seen. The real issue you are discussing has to do with player skill. The balance of NS is noticeably different with varying levels of skill. (good vs good, bad vs bad) Also notice that this has little to do with good vs bad players.
I know you started this thread, and I highly value your quality post, but I just want to help get this discussion in the right direction after seeing all the unecessary defensive and elitist posts.
The only way I can think to help remedy this problem was mentioned by another person, and that is to promote more teamplay through the interface -- basically raising the lowest common denominator. Unfortunately, this problem will probably never go away, but like many complex issues in NS can only be diminished.
I agree that the solution is NOT dividing the two nor focusing on one or the other. However, I think focusing on balancing typical pub play will cause more problems in the long run than focusing on clan play.
Eventually Flayra will have to stop trying to maintain a consistency in some areas of NS to achieve a better balance, though it be artificial. (e.g. trying to keep res equal between races, which could help resolve the player count balance issues if individual Kharaa would get a static amount of res per chamber regardless of the team size) I know it's tempting to continue to try to create a perfect system but not at the expense of balance right now.
In all these games, the balancing is up mainly to mappers, and to the devs to balance classes/weapons.
In ns, balance is affected by the cost of everything, and the strength of everything (compare this to classes), and the skill/number of players. Newbie skulk>newbie marine. Decent marine~=decent skulk. Good marine>good skulk. Unlike 'classes' in other mods however, the aliens and marines are VASTLY different, as are the maps they play on (VERY asymetrical). This is what makes it tough to balance. With a good comm, marines will win. A good fade, aliens will win. The differences in sides amplify the differences in players.
I like the suggestion of the sv_clan. Could be a **** though, as clanners have to get used to the different number of shots to kill a skulk.