<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then again, I don't suppose there are many people left who can take you seriously anyway, so killing your own discussion isn't really a big deal. People in general don't listen to asshats, no matter how good they are/how good their ideas are. <remembers Forlorn> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is why the playtesting is effective as it is/was.
At higher levels every element of combat has the potential of becoming whack-tackular, so finish it early, or enforce a 10 level cap, so a web gorge is close to the worst they can do. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That isnt realistic at all. The chances of winning before anyone reaches level 4 are slim. Fades almost always come up in combat with at least one upgrade. Saying "just beat them fast" isn't an answer to the problem.
I only think its stupid that a non-moving marine can be webbed.
And why the hell would you want to kill combat? There are some things that definatley need some work, but I'd say thats the usefulness of hand grenades.
Also, SUYF to the people complaining about xeno, the counter is to kill the skulk faster.
lol..no web..= bad idea... its not fuN..for the aliens then..
we need to hold em..well..maybe we could do this...HA could just walk threw Webs...and dont getting webbed...hmm..?? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->..well..hehe
In 1.04 if you had a welder and were attacking with it you could not be hit by a web. Also if you were standing still not moving at all webs couldn't hit you. Maybie one of these needs to be readded to the game.
It mostly boils down to the fact you cant balance co and ns mode with out changing some of the abilitys in only one of the modes. But it is already known that flayra wants to keep them the same.
Why was digest speeded up for combat? because it was more fast paced and no one wants to be sitting in an onos for 40 seconds three lives in a row. Why not speed up the effects of webs? Combat is supposed to be fast paces, being stuck in a 3 foot area with no weapons for 5 seconds per web is not fun or fast paced. Getting webbed while standing still and welding is also quite the annoyance.
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+May 30 2005, 08:56 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ May 30 2005, 08:56 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> It's hard because, once cleared, you have to web in front of the jp to catch him, or he'll just gl/weld the few webs you've put up out of the way, and kill you.
And the fact that a single jp can win the game while the rest of the marines get slaughtered if the aliens don't use webs is very relevant to this discussion. Webs are a counter, and they themselves are countered. Counter the webs, or counter the gorge, or both. Webs are annoying, yes, but even with two people rushing the hive repeatedly with jps and a shotty+gl combo, a single webbing gorge has no chance. Of course, if he has backup in the form of fades/onoses/lerks, they'll be able to hold the hive. I see no problem with a group of aliens using webs successfully repelling a group of marines. Note that, without the webs, the marines would likely be able to destroy the hive given enough time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You fail to consider several things:
1. It's a known fact you can't counter webs. Stop saying you can. It's not true, a good gorge with webs/adren in the hive room can out-counter anything the marines throw at the gorge.
- GL's? Webs are gone, just re-web it! God knows you can put up 8 webs before he can even reload
- Welder?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Just web him, and keep webbing! Not to mention a welding marine isn't shooting, he's skulkfood.
Marines don't get nearly as much usefulness from their upgrades as the aliens do from theirs. It's a known fact by any decent player. I really hate to say someone is wrong, but if you think you can counter webs then you are wrong. They are intentionally overpowered as a 3rd hive ability and are designed to help wrap up a game.
Except in combat, <b>game-ending</b> abilities come in a few levels.... yep, something just MIGHT be broken here!
<!--QuoteBegin-Sky+May 30 2005, 10:37 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Sky @ May 30 2005, 10:37 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Get a gl or welder. Seriously, I don't know how you can say you still get webbed if you're welding. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If you're browsing this thread, and know anything about NS Combat, you know to disregaurd everything he says right after this line.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh, and saying that anyone who doesn't think like you (that webs CAN be countered in combat) is ignorant is not the best way to start a discussion. If anything, you just lit a match and burned your own ship.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never intended to start a discussion - I wanted to let the Dev team know that webs are overpowering. Did you notice how anyone with some experience agrees with me? Also, need I point you have so little experience that you think someone with a welder out and active means they will not get webbed? Yeah... so about burning your own ship...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then again, I don't suppose there are many people left who can take you seriously anyway, so killing your own discussion isn't really a big deal. People in general don't listen to asshats, no matter how good they are/how good their ideas are. <remembers Forlorn><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+May 31 2005, 10:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ May 31 2005, 10:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - GL's? Webs are gone, just re-web it! God knows you can put up 8 webs before he can even reload <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> To that I have to say that when someone shoots gls in hive, when there are webs and gorge, RUSH AGAINST GORGE! I love to be webbing gorge and I have to say that when marines use teamwork with that tactic, you won't live for a long. Web again? You're in panic when you see jp hmg coming against you.
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+May 31 2005, 09:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ May 31 2005, 09:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You fail to consider several things:
1. It's a known fact you can't counter webs. Stop saying you can. It's not true, a good gorge with webs/adren in the hive room can out-counter anything the marines throw at the gorge. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You should really look up the definitions of "known" and "fact", because your statement isn't either.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - GL's? Webs are gone, just re-web it! God knows you can put up 8 webs before he can even reload<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So meanwhile, what's the rest of your team doing? They all have ammo right? They know there's an annoying web-gorge in there, right? Hey.. maybe they should put 2 & 2 together. It's pretty simple: If a specific alien is giving your team a lot of trouble, you focus everything you've got on getting that alien down.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> - Welder?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Just web him, and keep webbing! Not to mention a welding marine isn't shooting, he's skulkfood.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If he's solo, yeah. Of course, if he's solo, any marine is skulkfood.
That's an interesting system of counting you have there. Me, I get JP = lv 4 minimum. Perhaps you're using the "new" math.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines don't get nearly as much usefulness from their upgrades as the aliens do from theirs. It's a known fact by any decent player. I really hate to say someone is wrong, but if you think you can counter webs then you are wrong. They are intentionally overpowered as a 3rd hive ability and are designed to help wrap up a game. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> There you go using those words again.
Next time, you might want to substitute "It's a known fact" with "I'm pretty sure"
You're suggesting marines don't get as much usefulness from resupply as aliens do from redemption? Pull the other one. It's got bells on.
About the best argument you have is the last one. Webs are designed as an ability to help mop up an NS game, and therefore shouldn't be ported directly over into combat. I can see some decent reasoning for that. The solution isn't to remove webs. It's to tweak them. Make them take a moment or two to set in combat -- about as long as it takes to reload one grenade. That way they can't be used terribly offensively, and you don't have to worry so much about the gorge re-webbing after you've cleared the area.
<!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+May 31 2005, 05:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ May 31 2005, 05:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So meanwhile, what's the rest of your team doing? They all have ammo right? They know there's an annoying web-gorge in there, right? Hey.. maybe they should put 2 & 2 together. It's pretty simple: If a specific alien is giving your team a lot of trouble, you focus everything you've got on getting that alien down. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The rest of the team is 1) Spawning in 2) At base 3) In route to the hive or 4) Fighting aliens elsewhere. If you're saying that the only way to kill aliens using webs is to have the majority of the marines in their hive when the webs go down you are only proving my point that webs are overpowering and have no place in combat.
Not a majority. One with a GL, one with a shotgun can even do it. Two people, since the gorge can only web one at a time. You have the GL rush in and blow the place sky high for webs and have the shottie move in and flank the gorge while he chases the GL-man, for example. Three or more and it's just getting very easy. This does depend on what size game you mean. 10v10 four jetpacks combining to kill a gorge or two isn't really that unrealistic. 6v6 maybe only two guys have one, but their team's a lot smaller in proportion too.
Eh, I don't really care about combat anyway. I'd say tweak webs because I swear to god I've had (let's call them) web-lengths ranging 5-15 seconds. Do they actually vary, or am I just paranoid? Like Roberto said, the onos devour plays to speed and avoids 40 seconds of inactivity, perhaps webs should follow suit.
so now 2 people can take out a hive in a game of Combat.
sigh
this is why I said this should not be a discussion - but rather a point that those who know the game see clearly, and those who don't think we're wrong.
<!--QuoteBegin-Kwil+May 31 2005, 12:44 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Kwil @ May 31 2005, 12:44 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If he's solo, yeah. Of course, if he's solo, any marine is skulkfood.
That's an interesting system of counting you have there. Me, I get JP = lv 4 minimum. Perhaps you're using the "new" math. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A solo marine can defend himself quite well from skulks.
I count five levels needed for resupply, he was probably adding a shotgun and resupply, since jp lmg makes little children cry.
<!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+May 31 2005, 03:23 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve @ May 31 2005, 03:23 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> so now 2 people can take out a hive in a game of Combat.
sigh
this is why I said this should not be a discussion - but rather a point that those who know the game see clearly, and those who don't think we're wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Could've sworn you posted this in "general discussion" and not "suggestions". Should this be stickied or something?
So you're basically posting with every argument you made except "I'm right!" refuted, calling anyone who doesn't agree with you ignorant. You want a thread specifically devoted to one side of an argument, or something? I disagree with what you said, so I put my own thoughts. If I'm wrong feel free to rebuttle, otherwise don't go around stating things as "known facts". I guarantee you I've played as much combat as anyone in this thread, on several different servers, and 99% of the time am one of the top two players on the team.
And besides, it's COMBAT, there's barely anything TO know that you wouldn't pick up from even a month's worth of playing it.
This is too funny. K pal go enjoy your leet unupgraded LMG JP without resupply. I kinda thought we were talking about things in terms of usefulness.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You're suggesting marines don't get as much usefulness from resupply as aliens do from redemption? Pull the other one. It's got bells on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This comparision makes no sense. Care to explain or am I missing something here? Redemption doesn't have a counter, doesn't heal you, doesn't give you ammo (adren!?), on the other hand it sends you back to the hive room. Resupply isn't going to help much vs that focus fade, but redemption will pretty much rock as a cara/regen/celerity onos.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So meanwhile, what's the rest of your team doing? They all have ammo right? They know there's an annoying web-gorge in there, right? Hey.. maybe they should put 2 & 2 together. It's pretty simple: If a specific alien is giving your team a lot of trouble, you focus everything you've got on getting that alien down. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
And you just proved my point. The rest of the team is fighting other aliens. Why is it that you need several marines coming from several directions all firing at several times to kill one gorge with webs?
Hmmm is it because webs are overpowered? On purpose!? By the devs no less!? Maybe an oversight into combat mode?!?!
<i>No way jose</i>
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->Here is an accurate diagram of what happens in today's gorged out combat games:<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->As we can clearly see in figure 1, the marine is shooting the gorge. However, our clever compianion, George the gorge isn't going to fall for that old trick! No sir, he's got webs. The webs neturalize marines, as we can see from figure 2, the astericks of inactivity have surrounded the marine, nullifying his ability to shoot or move. George then proceeds to smother him in his spit, rendering the marine back to spawn! That was some quick thinking, George.
If other gorges were as crafty as you, George, marines would never win a game of combat.<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Splinter Steve?+May 31 2005, 11:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Splinter Steve? @ May 31 2005, 11:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So you're basically posting with every argument you made except "I'm right!" refuted, calling anyone who doesn't agree with you ignorant. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now you're getting it.
Let's not forget that all ignorant means is that you lack knowledge. If you do not think that webs are too strong in NS: Combat then you have simply not played in enough games where a gorge is webbing.
My point is: Webs are overpowering in NS Combat - either becuase 1) They are in the game to begin with, and they should not be or 2) There are no effective counters to it.
<!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+May 31 2005, 10:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve @ May 31 2005, 10:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Splinter Steve?+May 31 2005, 11:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Splinter Steve? @ May 31 2005, 11:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So you're basically posting with every argument you made except "I'm right!" refuted, calling anyone who doesn't agree with you ignorant. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Now you're getting it.
Let's not forget that all ignorant means is that you lack knowledge. If you do not think that webs are too strong in NS: Combat then you have simply not played in enough games where a gorge is webbing.
My point is: Webs are overpowering in NS Combat - either becuase 1) They are in the game to begin with, and they should not be or 2) There are no effective counters to it.
This is a fact... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You're gonna have trouble in the looney bin when they try to fit the padded helmet over your inflated head.
Buddy, I know people who are devoted to being that annoying $#%#$% gorge <i>map in, map out</i>. And if you'd listened to what I said earlier, I am for a tweaking and toning down of web for a reason Roberto pointed out earlier.
I say they are fine the way they are, and I could selectively pick fifty people who agree and say that it's a "widely known bit of information". Unfortunately that is entirely fallacious if you see the differings in opinion AND reason in this thread.
I think you've already pretty well alienated yourself from anyone you might have been trying to convince with this thread, SentrySteve, but for future reference: stubborn arrogance is not an effective way to make a point, much less turn people to your side. Sometimes delivery is just as important as content.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+May 31 2005, 10:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ May 31 2005, 10:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> stubborn arrogance is not an effective way to make a point <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> unless you bring it to competitive discussion, then you might go places
<!--QuoteBegin-Zek+Jun 1 2005, 03:20 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zek @ Jun 1 2005, 03:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> less turn people to your side. Sometimes delivery is just as important as content. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well now I guess everyone knows how much I care about both those points. I'm not trying to 'turn people to my side.' I could care less how many people agree with me. The fact that the poncy pie group of the NS community now dislikes me is really breaking my heart.
There is a unbalance in Combat called webs. I saw no real thread pointing this out - so I made one. I knew that the first replies to this thread were going to be the usual retarded statements like 'remove everything too! keke ^_^ *giggle*'" from people who play combat for an hour every other day.
If anyone who cares about combat reads this it doesnt matter how nicely I say anything. (And if it does, which it has in the past, then Combat will continue to have this unbalance.) What matters is that those can make a change (aka none of you) agree with me.
A web gorge can neatly handle pretty much any single marine.
ANY single marine. Any single MARINE.
...
Wait for it.
...
Any SINGLE marine.
Oh. Woah. Hold on a second. What the heck is a single marine doing in the hive? So you bring your GL and blast away some webs, and complain that the gorge can reweb as you reload. Thats what happens when you are alone. So you fly in with your JP/SG and get webbed and spat to death. Thats what happens when you are alone.
There is no sensible argument that involves allowing one marine to bypass alien defenses all by himself. Even more so than aliens, marines must work together to win.
If you are not talking to your team, if you are not coordinating with them, if you are being a strong and silent pub star stat-lady-of-negotiable-affection with your rambo ammo belt and high expectations, then prepare to be countered.
If you helped get the rest of your team into the hive, then It does not matter if you die to webs doing so.
It. does. not. matter. if. you. die.
Really.
Unless you are one of those folks who says "I WIN" after your team loses and you still have the biggest K/D ratio. And who doesn't love those guys.
I fail to understand why you people think the gorge only has enough webs for one marine. The webs will hold back an entire team. 1 player.
AN entire team. An entire TEAM.
Wait for it.
An ENTIRE team.
It will buy the alien team more than enough time to deal with any threat. It doesn't matter what equipment that rine has- if he's running around welder first, or running around webbed, or using most've his ammo to deal with webs, he will die.
Maybe you're not the ones getting this. It takes a team of marines, to deal with <i>one</i> gorge. Now, I suppose if the rest of the alien team is afk or amazingly incompetent, then yeah that gorge will go down. If those 4-10 other skulks/fades/onos/lerks know how to hold down +forward and +attack, then you're going to die. You're team is going to die.
One JP/SG rine shouldn't be able to take down a hive- and with one decent fade, or an umbra lerk, or a leap skulk that knows what they're doing, or an onos blocking the hive entrance on some maps, that rine will fail 99/100 times.
A gorge doesn't need to use webs as a static defence- they're quite the active weapon. It's kinda hard to weld/GL that web created <b>on</b> you.
^^ This is CO youre talking about. Tbh remove webs, makes it too easy for aliens. All it takes is a fade to go 4 the gl guy and the rest of the rines are helpless. Webs make aliens stupidly overpowered period.
Comments
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is why the playtesting is effective as it is/was.
win before gorges get webs.
or a more followable one:
GLs anyone?
At higher levels every element of combat has the potential of becoming whack-tackular, so finish it early, or enforce a 10 level cap, so a web gorge is close to the worst they can do. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That isnt realistic at all. The chances of winning before anyone reaches level 4 are slim. Fades almost always come up in combat with at least one upgrade. Saying "just beat them fast" isn't an answer to the problem.
You forgot to say "OMG WEBS, USE YOUR HAND GRENADES TO DOWN THEM!!1111oneeleven1!."
Hand Grenades are explosions too! (So are mines, but everyone loves mines).
remove combat <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
totally agreed.
And why the hell would you want to kill combat? There are some things that definatley need some work, but I'd say thats the usefulness of hand grenades.
Also, SUYF to the people complaining about xeno, the counter is to kill the skulk faster.
we need to hold em..well..maybe we could do this...HA could just walk threw Webs...and dont getting webbed...hmm..?? <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->..well..hehe
doh..
Mutli
It mostly boils down to the fact you cant balance co and ns mode with out changing some of the abilitys in only one of the modes. But it is already known that flayra wants to keep them the same.
And the fact that a single jp can win the game while the rest of the marines get slaughtered if the aliens don't use webs is very relevant to this discussion. Webs are a counter, and they themselves are countered. Counter the webs, or counter the gorge, or both. Webs are annoying, yes, but even with two people rushing the hive repeatedly with jps and a shotty+gl combo, a single webbing gorge has no chance. Of course, if he has backup in the form of fades/onoses/lerks, they'll be able to hold the hive. I see no problem with a group of aliens using webs successfully repelling a group of marines. Note that, without the webs, the marines would likely be able to destroy the hive given enough time. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You fail to consider several things:
1. It's a known fact you can't counter webs. Stop saying you can. It's not true, a good gorge with webs/adren in the hive room can out-counter anything the marines throw at the gorge.
- GL's? Webs are gone, just re-web it! God knows you can put up 8 webs before he can even reload
- Welder?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Just web him, and keep webbing! Not to mention a welding marine isn't shooting, he's skulkfood.
2. JP = lv. 8 MINIMUM
Webs = lv. 4
fades = lv. 4 (focus fades = lv. 6)
xeno = lv. 3 (focus skulks = lv. 3 and above)
The counters to JP, ladies and gentlement.
Marines don't get nearly as much usefulness from their upgrades as the aliens do from theirs. It's a known fact by any decent player. I really hate to say someone is wrong, but if you think you can counter webs then you are wrong. They are intentionally overpowered as a 3rd hive ability and are designed to help wrap up a game.
Except in combat, <b>game-ending</b> abilities come in a few levels.... yep, something just MIGHT be broken here!
If you're browsing this thread, and know anything about NS Combat, you know to disregaurd everything he says right after this line.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Oh, and saying that anyone who doesn't think like you (that webs CAN be countered in combat) is ignorant is not the best way to start a discussion. If anything, you just lit a match and burned your own ship.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I never intended to start a discussion - I wanted to let the Dev team know that webs are overpowering. Did you notice how anyone with some experience agrees with me? Also, need I point you have so little experience that you think someone with a welder out and active means they will not get webbed? Yeah... so about burning your own ship...
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then again, I don't suppose there are many people left who can take you seriously anyway, so killing your own discussion isn't really a big deal. People in general don't listen to asshats, no matter how good they are/how good their ideas are. <remembers Forlorn><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firewater already rocked this one for me.
To that I have to say that when someone shoots gls in hive, when there are webs and gorge, RUSH AGAINST GORGE! I love to be webbing gorge and I have to say that when marines use teamwork with that tactic, you won't live for a long. Web again? You're in panic when you see jp hmg coming against you.
Bigger problem is onos army.
1. It's a known fact you can't counter webs. Stop saying you can. It's not true, a good gorge with webs/adren in the hive room can out-counter anything the marines throw at the gorge.
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You should really look up the definitions of "known" and "fact", because your statement isn't either.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
- GL's? Webs are gone, just re-web it! God knows you can put up 8 webs before he can even reload<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So meanwhile, what's the rest of your team doing? They all have ammo right? They know there's an annoying web-gorge in there, right? Hey.. maybe they should put 2 & 2 together. It's pretty simple: If a specific alien is giving your team a lot of trouble, you focus everything you've got on getting that alien down.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
- Welder?<!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> Just web him, and keep webbing! Not to mention a welding marine isn't shooting, he's skulkfood.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If he's solo, yeah. Of course, if he's solo, any marine is skulkfood.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
2. JP = lv. 8 MINIMUM
Webs = lv. 4
fades = lv. 4 (focus fades = lv. 6)
xeno = lv. 3 (focus skulks = lv. 3 and above)
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That's an interesting system of counting you have there.
Me, I get JP = lv 4 minimum. Perhaps you're using the "new" math.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Marines don't get nearly as much usefulness from their upgrades as the aliens do from theirs. It's a known fact by any decent player. I really hate to say someone is wrong, but if you think you can counter webs then you are wrong. They are intentionally overpowered as a 3rd hive ability and are designed to help wrap up a game.
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There you go using those words again.
Next time, you might want to substitute "It's a known fact" with "I'm pretty sure"
You're suggesting marines don't get as much usefulness from resupply as aliens do from redemption? Pull the other one. It's got bells on.
About the best argument you have is the last one. Webs are designed as an ability to help mop up an NS game, and therefore shouldn't be ported directly over into combat. I can see some decent reasoning for that. The solution isn't to remove webs. It's to tweak them. Make them take a moment or two to set in combat -- about as long as it takes to reload one grenade. That way they can't be used terribly offensively, and you don't have to worry so much about the gorge re-webbing after you've cleared the area.
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The rest of the team is 1) Spawning in 2) At base 3) In route to the hive or 4) Fighting aliens elsewhere. If you're saying that the only way to kill aliens using webs is to have the majority of the marines in their hive when the webs go down you are only proving my point that webs are overpowering and have no place in combat.
Eh, I don't really care about combat anyway. I'd say tweak webs because I swear to god I've had (let's call them) web-lengths ranging 5-15 seconds. Do they actually vary, or am I just paranoid? Like Roberto said, the onos devour plays to speed and avoids 40 seconds of inactivity, perhaps webs should follow suit.
sigh
this is why I said this should not be a discussion - but rather a point that those who know the game see clearly, and those who don't think we're wrong.
That's an interesting system of counting you have there.
Me, I get JP = lv 4 minimum. Perhaps you're using the "new" math.
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A solo marine can defend himself quite well from skulks.
I count five levels needed for resupply, he was probably adding a shotgun and resupply, since jp lmg makes little children cry.
sigh
this is why I said this should not be a discussion - but rather a point that those who know the game see clearly, and those who don't think we're wrong. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Could've sworn you posted this in "general discussion" and not "suggestions". Should this be stickied or something?
So you're basically posting with every argument you made except "I'm right!" refuted, calling anyone who doesn't agree with you ignorant. You want a thread specifically devoted to one side of an argument, or something? I disagree with what you said, so I put my own thoughts. If I'm wrong feel free to rebuttle, otherwise don't go around stating things as "known facts". I guarantee you I've played as much combat as anyone in this thread, on several different servers, and 99% of the time am one of the top two players on the team.
And besides, it's COMBAT, there's barely anything TO know that you wouldn't pick up from even a month's worth of playing it.
2. JP = lv. 8 MINIMUM
Webs = lv. 4
fades = lv. 4 (focus fades = lv. 6)
xeno = lv. 3 (focus skulks = lv. 3 and above)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's an interesting system of counting you have there.
Me, I get JP = lv 4 minimum. Perhaps you're using the "new" math.
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This is too funny. K pal go enjoy your leet unupgraded LMG JP without resupply. I kinda thought we were talking about things in terms of usefulness.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You're suggesting marines don't get as much usefulness from resupply as aliens do from redemption? Pull the other one. It's got bells on.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This comparision makes no sense. Care to explain or am I missing something here? Redemption doesn't have a counter, doesn't heal you, doesn't give you ammo (adren!?), on the other hand it sends you back to the hive room. Resupply isn't going to help much vs that focus fade, but redemption will pretty much rock as a cara/regen/celerity onos.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So meanwhile, what's the rest of your team doing? They all have ammo right? They know there's an annoying web-gorge in there, right? Hey.. maybe they should put 2 & 2 together. It's pretty simple: If a specific alien is giving your team a lot of trouble, you focus everything you've got on getting that alien down.
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And you just proved my point. The rest of the team is fighting other aliens. Why is it that you need several marines coming from several directions all firing at several times to kill one gorge with webs?
Hmmm is it because webs are overpowered? On purpose!? By the devs no less!? Maybe an oversight into combat mode?!?!
<i>No way jose</i>
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->Here is an accurate diagram of what happens in today's gorged out combat games:<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
1.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> *~ *~ <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
2.
**<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo-->** 0~ 0~ <img src='http://img131.echo.cx/img131/3888/pudgy4dh.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
<!--c1--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>CODE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='CODE'><!--ec1-->As we can clearly see in figure 1, the marine is shooting the gorge. However, our clever compianion, George the gorge isn't going to fall for that old trick! No sir, he's got webs. The webs neturalize marines, as we can see from figure 2, the astericks of inactivity have surrounded the marine, nullifying his ability to shoot or move. George then proceeds to smother him in his spit, rendering the marine back to spawn! That was some quick thinking, George.
If other gorges were as crafty as you, George, marines would never win a game of combat.<!--c2--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--ec2-->
Now you're getting it.
Let's not forget that all ignorant means is that you lack knowledge. If you do not think that webs are too strong in NS: Combat then you have simply not played in enough games where a gorge is webbing.
My point is: Webs are overpowering in NS Combat - either becuase 1) They are in the game to begin with, and they should not be or 2) There are no effective counters to it.
This is a fact...
Now you're getting it.
Let's not forget that all ignorant means is that you lack knowledge. If you do not think that webs are too strong in NS: Combat then you have simply not played in enough games where a gorge is webbing.
My point is: Webs are overpowering in NS Combat - either becuase 1) They are in the game to begin with, and they should not be or 2) There are no effective counters to it.
This is a fact... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You're gonna have trouble in the looney bin when they try to fit the padded helmet over your inflated head.
I say they are fine the way they are, and I could selectively pick fifty people who agree and say that it's a "widely known bit of information". Unfortunately that is entirely fallacious if you see the differings in opinion AND reason in this thread.
2 gorges and 2 lerks can beat any size team in combat.
unless you bring it to competitive discussion, then you might go places
Well now I guess everyone knows how much I care about both those points. I'm not trying to 'turn people to my side.' I could care less how many people agree with me. The fact that the poncy pie group of the NS community now dislikes me is really breaking my heart.
There is a unbalance in Combat called webs. I saw no real thread pointing this out - so I made one. I knew that the first replies to this thread were going to be the usual retarded statements like 'remove everything too! keke ^_^ *giggle*'" from people who play combat for an hour every other day.
If anyone who cares about combat reads this it doesnt matter how nicely I say anything. (And if it does, which it has in the past, then Combat will continue to have this unbalance.) What matters is that those can make a change (aka none of you) agree with me.
ANY single marine.
Any single MARINE.
...
Wait for it.
...
Any SINGLE marine.
Oh. Woah. Hold on a second. What the heck is a single marine doing in the hive? So you bring your GL and blast away some webs, and complain that the gorge can reweb as you reload. Thats what happens when you are alone. So you fly in with your JP/SG and get webbed and spat to death. Thats what happens when you are alone.
There is no sensible argument that involves allowing one marine to bypass alien defenses all by himself. Even more so than aliens, marines must work together to win.
If you are not talking to your team, if you are not coordinating with them, if you are being a strong and silent pub star stat-lady-of-negotiable-affection with your rambo ammo belt and high expectations, then prepare to be countered.
If you helped get the rest of your team into the hive, then It does not matter if you die to webs doing so.
It. does. not. matter. if. you. die.
Really.
Unless you are one of those folks who says "I WIN" after your team loses and you still have the biggest K/D ratio. And who doesn't love those guys.
AN entire team.
An entire TEAM.
Wait for it.
An ENTIRE team.
It will buy the alien team more than enough time to deal with any threat. It doesn't matter what equipment that rine has- if he's running around welder first, or running around webbed, or using most've his ammo to deal with webs, he will die.
Maybe you're not the ones getting this. It takes a team of marines, to deal with <i>one</i> gorge. Now, I suppose if the rest of the alien team is afk or amazingly incompetent, then yeah that gorge will go down. If those 4-10 other skulks/fades/onos/lerks know how to hold down +forward and +attack, then you're going to die. You're team is going to die.
One JP/SG rine shouldn't be able to take down a hive- and with one decent fade, or an umbra lerk, or a leap skulk that knows what they're doing, or an onos blocking the hive entrance on some maps, that rine will fail 99/100 times.
A gorge doesn't need to use webs as a static defence- they're quite the active weapon. It's kinda hard to weld/GL that web created <b>on</b> you.
Webs make aliens stupidly overpowered period.