<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You don’t explore, you don’t develop new strategies. Why should you bothering yourself trying out tactics or procedures which will probable lead to a loss? You “play to win”. You’re only adapting.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats a flawed statement. At the very least, new strategies are developed when new versions come out, and then refinement or development of new strategies to counter that etc...
Also can you please support your answer using atleast NS teams (or at the very least, a counter-strike TFC or any other competitive gaming team) and not German Soccer players. They have nothing to do with this whatsoever.
That depends ENTIRELY on the situation, as per OCs. But I'll get to that.
Ever participated in a knife brigade? Ever done a gorge rush? Ever coordinated a xeno-bombardment? Welder-attack (past 2.0 only) ?
Now a few less obvious: Turtling Marine start to <b>WAIT FOR THE END?</b> Charged carelessly into the waiting HMGs of HA's about to murder your last hive?
That's all playing for fun. In some of those instances, you forfeit a valid chance to win for fun. In others, you have already lost it. But you know what? You keep playing, you keep going.
I think that at some level, we all play for fun. Some more than others.
I never F4, I never give in. You -could- say it's against my morals, my wish to be the last man standing near my banner before we fall. But you could also say that I simply enjoy that last-minute adrenaline rush, where no matter what you do, you can't win, but you try just that much harder anyway.
For those that play only to win....I am sorry.
<i>Edit: Oh yeah, OCs. Right.
For them, I say it's all a matter of placement, timing, and conditions. NOBODY wants to JP into a hive that has properly placed OCs. But any good ninja/fremen/dedicated rambo knows that only a very careful gorge can make an OC setup that -will- without fail stop a ninja/fremen/dedicated rambo. So how does this come out? They're of no use early game. Any comm that sees any noticable number of OCs will not use JPs. OCs placed to block ninjas early game get destroyed over time.
You use them per instance, sometimes this takes a lot of res, and you often dont' have much time. But if you have it right, they DO have a use. It's just something that is no longer brute force (1.04 era WoL), but finesse (3.0 era OC nets). Just think on it. They have many uses. Even if it's only to show you when the marines destroy it with that convenient red blip in hive-sight.</i>
<!--QuoteBegin-TOmekki+Jun 1 2005, 05:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TOmekki @ Jun 1 2005, 05:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> how many competetive players have you worked with closely? is any of them other than german?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
My first competitive game was Doom 2 (Compuserve Actions Gamers Doom Ladder) (still remember got beaten by the only woman in the ladder and the only joypad users <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ). My last competitive game was DoD. My highest stake in competitive play was Delta Force 2 (a Euro clan that got an article in the PC Zone Benelux). Probable you’re still the more experienced competitive player because I had longer time-outs between them Anyways I’m not bashing the competitive scene; I bash the pure “play to win” style of play. Style of play is not tied to any “class” of player.
<!--QuoteBegin-TOmekki+Jun 1 2005, 05:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TOmekki @ Jun 1 2005, 05:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->obviously in order for a player to be recruited into an established clan, he has to fit in the team & fill a role.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my old DF2 squad we also looked for skilled people but I was more important that the spirit of the person fits into the squad. And we also took “not-so skilled” players and trained them. We were quite successful with it and were able to form a stable team (while other squads vanished), a clan that was founded at 1999 and still exists and plays competitive. But I have to admit that they’re not as successful as we were at the beginning.
Talion got it. It’s not all about skill. There are also other factors. What’s about moral in a clan with only members get their satisfaction by wins? Will they be able to keep the moral up while facing a loss and will they be able to fight back. If they lost the game will they be able to analyze it properly and get out the valuable information or will they seek the debts anywhere else? What’s about situation awareness? What’s intuitive knowledge what are the weak points of our situation and what are their week points? What’s a member worth with the highest skill if he’s a clanhopper? These are also valid point for recruiting.
Also competitive play is a process and not a summary of factors. In history of fighting in humankind there’s the concept of “art of war” because it’s an art to know about all the factors and take “intuitive” the right decision and it’s an art to develop new strategies just in time. That’s because Napoleon was able to conquer Europe (he used a unusual concept for his army organisation and positioning), Rommel was able to hold on against much large allied forces (he clearly spotted the weak points of his enemies while was able to cover his own weak spots with tricks), and Eisenhower succeeded with the landing in the Normandy (he was able to perform a never seen before military operation with excellent organisation).
Sure Natural Selection is quite simple comparing to military operations but the rules apply the same.
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Jun 2 2005, 12:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Jun 2 2005, 12:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You don’t explore, you don’t develop new strategies. Why should you bothering yourself trying out tactics or procedures which will probable lead to a loss? You “play to win”. You’re only adapting.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats a flawed statement. At the very least, new strategies are developed when new versions come out, and then refinement or development of new strategies to counter that etc... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That statement was just a little provocation. I don’t know you and I don’t know what type of player you are and so I’m sorry if I offended you. Maybe you stated “play to win” but you’re wrong with it. You’re not “play to win” if you’re able to risk a loss if you gain valuable information.
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Jun 2 2005, 12:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Jun 2 2005, 12:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also can you please support your answer using atleast NS teams (or at the very least, a counter-strike TFC or any other competitive gaming team) and not German Soccer players. They have nothing to do with this whatsoever.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Much more than you think – there are many parallels. Same goes for example for recruiting of clans and recruiting of special operations soldiers.
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Jun 2 2005, 10:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Jun 2 2005, 10:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You still didn't answer my question on what teams should recruit based on?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok to answer your question even as it’s not point of my discussion and I should rewrite it to make it more clearly. And btw. sorry for my crappy English <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
Goal is to form with recruiting a steady and skilled clan. I would apply these rules:
1. Fits the person into the team for a role? Same spirit as the other team members? Same goals? Is he capricious or steady? 2. Has he a good mind set? Is he able to bear constructive critic? Is he able to discern his own errors and is he able to workout suitable solutions? 3. Is he able to communicate well enough and effective with other team members? (language) 4. How good can he bear pressure or stress? 5. What’s his current skill level
Skill is secondary because every person has a “tare” level of skill. And how much he can improve within the clan depends on the answers of the questions 1 – 4. I’m aware that not all questions can get answered eminent but some. Sure you can throw together some skilled people in a clan and forget about other factor; and yes you can be successful for some time. Like the German clans Radical or Ariadne; resolved after a short time.
<!--QuoteBegin-kalimxs+Jun 2 2005, 09:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (kalimxs @ Jun 2 2005, 09:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->please write some more words about the philosophy of playing a flipping mod which has about 100 people that play it competatively online more<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well … beside your irony it’s not about philosophy. It’s about to think in processes. Winning may be the goal but the process to gain that goal is the important matter. Many common topics get currently rethought like IT security. IT security was long time about products like firewalls, virus scanners, secure password enforcement in computer programs etc. that should secure your IT structure. That all don’t work out because IT security is a process and not a bundle of products.
<i>“Securing a network takes a lot more then plugging a few technical holes. Even if I were to walk into your network and fix every single existing problem, it would not make your network secure. Security is a procedure with many steps, assessment, definition of needs, planning, implementation, review, and so forth, which amounts to a never ending cycle.“ </i>
<!--QuoteBegin-Fire Eel+May 24 2005, 02:58 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Fire Eel @ May 24 2005, 02:58 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Me : I play for fun, and not just for the victory. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Me : too ^^
Thought, some people plays for victory : you have decided to team with them, so feel free to understand them and play the best way to help everyone.
That's my thought, i express them too but i often ask if people agree or not with some strategys.
Thought, i don't like people that play only for them : examples : - alone rushing knifing marine - surviving gorge that made his OC farm instead of defending the hive (when everything is not lost ^^, his res could have been used for the team) - useless eco-onos... (or flash onos), even more if they say "hacks" or "we have lost" when they die.
Play the game with your team, from the beginning to the fatal or the happy end ^^. Whatever is your skill or your opinion, do your best to each other so that everyone will enjoy the game <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Comments
Thats a flawed statement. At the very least, new strategies are developed when new versions come out, and then refinement or development of new strategies to counter that etc...
Also can you please support your answer using atleast NS teams (or at the very least, a counter-strike TFC or any other competitive gaming team) and not German Soccer players. They have nothing to do with this whatsoever.
Ever participated in a knife brigade?
Ever done a gorge rush?
Ever coordinated a xeno-bombardment?
Welder-attack (past 2.0 only) ?
Now a few less obvious:
Turtling Marine start to <b>WAIT FOR THE END?</b>
Charged carelessly into the waiting HMGs of HA's about to murder your last hive?
That's all playing for fun. In some of those instances, you forfeit a valid chance to win for fun. In others, you have already lost it. But you know what? You keep playing, you keep going.
I think that at some level, we all play for fun. Some more than others.
I never F4, I never give in. You -could- say it's against my morals, my wish to be the last man standing near my banner before we fall. But you could also say that I simply enjoy that last-minute adrenaline rush, where no matter what you do, you can't win, but you try just that much harder anyway.
For those that play only to win....I am sorry.
<i>Edit: Oh yeah, OCs. Right.
For them, I say it's all a matter of placement, timing, and conditions. NOBODY wants to JP into a hive that has properly placed OCs. But any good ninja/fremen/dedicated rambo knows that only a very careful gorge can make an OC setup that -will- without fail stop a ninja/fremen/dedicated rambo. So how does this come out? They're of no use early game. Any comm that sees any noticable number of OCs will not use JPs. OCs placed to block ninjas early game get destroyed over time.
You use them per instance, sometimes this takes a lot of res, and you often dont' have much time. But if you have it right, they DO have a use. It's just something that is no longer brute force (1.04 era WoL), but finesse (3.0 era OC nets). Just think on it. They have many uses. Even if it's only to show you when the marines destroy it with that convenient red blip in hive-sight.</i>
My first competitive game was Doom 2 (Compuserve Actions Gamers Doom Ladder) (still remember got beaten by the only woman in the ladder and the only joypad users <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ). My last competitive game was DoD. My highest stake in competitive play was Delta Force 2 (a Euro clan that got an article in the PC Zone Benelux).
Probable you’re still the more experienced competitive player because I had longer time-outs between them
Anyways I’m not bashing the competitive scene; I bash the pure “play to win” style of play. Style of play is not tied to any “class” of player.
<!--QuoteBegin-TOmekki+Jun 1 2005, 05:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TOmekki @ Jun 1 2005, 05:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->obviously in order for a player to be recruited into an established clan, he has to fit in the team & fill a role.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
In my old DF2 squad we also looked for skilled people but I was more important that the spirit of the person fits into the squad. And we also took “not-so skilled” players and trained them. We were quite successful with it and were able to form a stable team (while other squads vanished), a clan that was founded at 1999 and still exists and plays competitive. But I have to admit that they’re not as successful as we were at the beginning.
Talion got it. It’s not all about skill. There are also other factors. What’s about moral in a clan with only members get their satisfaction by wins? Will they be able to keep the moral up while facing a loss and will they be able to fight back. If they lost the game will they be able to analyze it properly and get out the valuable information or will they seek the debts anywhere else? What’s about situation awareness? What’s intuitive knowledge what are the weak points of our situation and what are their week points? What’s a member worth with the highest skill if he’s a clanhopper? These are also valid point for recruiting.
Also competitive play is a process and not a summary of factors. In history of fighting in humankind there’s the concept of “art of war” because it’s an art to know about all the factors and take “intuitive” the right decision and it’s an art to develop new strategies just in time. That’s because Napoleon was able to conquer Europe (he used a unusual concept for his army organisation and positioning), Rommel was able to hold on against much large allied forces (he clearly spotted the weak points of his enemies while was able to cover his own weak spots with tricks), and Eisenhower succeeded with the landing in the Normandy (he was able to perform a never seen before military operation with excellent organisation).
Sure Natural Selection is quite simple comparing to military operations but the rules apply the same.
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Jun 2 2005, 12:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Jun 2 2005, 12:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You don’t explore, you don’t develop new strategies. Why should you bothering yourself trying out tactics or procedures which will probable lead to a loss? You “play to win”. You’re only adapting.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats a flawed statement. At the very least, new strategies are developed when new versions come out, and then refinement or development of new strategies to counter that etc...
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That statement was just a little provocation. I don’t know you and I don’t know what type of player you are and so I’m sorry if I offended you.
Maybe you stated “play to win” but you’re wrong with it. You’re not “play to win” if you’re able to risk a loss if you gain valuable information.
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Jun 2 2005, 12:57 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Jun 2 2005, 12:57 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Also can you please support your answer using atleast NS teams (or at the very least, a counter-strike TFC or any other competitive gaming team) and not German Soccer players. They have nothing to do with this whatsoever.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Much more than you think – there are many parallels. Same goes for example for recruiting of clans and recruiting of special operations soldiers.
Oh and personally i recruit skilled players who I like. I hear they aren't mutually exclusive.
Ok to answer your question even as it’s not point of my discussion and I should rewrite it to make it more clearly. And btw. sorry for my crappy English <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->.
Goal is to form with recruiting a steady and skilled clan. I would apply these rules:
1. Fits the person into the team for a role? Same spirit as the other team members? Same goals? Is he capricious or steady?
2. Has he a good mind set? Is he able to bear constructive critic? Is he able to discern his own errors and is he able to workout suitable solutions?
3. Is he able to communicate well enough and effective with other team members? (language)
4. How good can he bear pressure or stress?
5. What’s his current skill level
Skill is secondary because every person has a “tare” level of skill. And how much he can improve within the clan depends on the answers of the questions 1 – 4.
I’m aware that not all questions can get answered eminent but some. Sure you can throw together some skilled people in a clan and forget about other factor; and yes you can be successful for some time. Like the German clans Radical or Ariadne; resolved after a short time.
Well … beside your irony it’s not about philosophy. It’s about to think in processes. Winning may be the goal but the process to gain that goal is the important matter. Many common topics get currently rethought like IT security. IT security was long time about products like firewalls, virus scanners, secure password enforcement in computer programs etc. that should secure your IT structure. That all don’t work out because IT security is a process and not a bundle of products.
<a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process' target='_blank'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Process</a>
<a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_process' target='_blank'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stochastic_process</a>
<i>“Securing a network takes a lot more then plugging a few technical holes. Even if I were to walk into your network and fix every single existing problem, it would not make your network secure. Security is a procedure with many steps, assessment, definition of needs, planning, implementation, review, and so forth, which amounts to a never ending cycle.“ </i>
Winning a game is a process.
Not everyone agrees on what way of playing the game is more fun..
Some players find losing brilliant and have a laugh about it
Some find it really funny to waste res
Some find it funny to end the game in seconds
Some find it fun when they win all the time
Some find it fun to rambo
Some find it fun to camp
Some find it fun to pretend they are AFK and then anniahlate you when your too close
Some find it fun to jump down bottomless pits
Some find it fun to blow themselves up with a gl
Some find it fun to rush to their deaths with a knife
Some find it fun to cloak and sit on your marine head and then xeno
Some find it fun to parasite kill
Some find it fun to spoil the game
Some find it fun to cheat
Some find it fun to run around doing nothing
Some find it fun to turret spam
Some find it fun to chamber spam
I could go on forever but i am not going to..
I think you all get my point by now..
If not i will make it simple..
Not everyone's opinions on fun match up because players are different and some love to win all the time and some love to lose or reck the game..
EVERYONE PLAYS ANY GAME BECAUSE THEY FIND WHAT THEY DO IN THAT GAME FUN.
Fin.
Me : too ^^
Thought, some people plays for victory : you have decided to team with them, so feel free to understand them and play the best way to help everyone.
That's my thought, i express them too but i often ask if people agree or not with some strategys.
Thought, i don't like people that play only for them : examples :
- alone rushing knifing marine
- surviving gorge that made his OC farm instead of defending the hive (when everything is not lost ^^, his res could have been used for the team)
- useless eco-onos... (or flash onos), even more if they say "hacks" or "we have lost" when they die.
Play the game with your team, from the beginning to the fatal or the happy end ^^. Whatever is your skill or your opinion, do your best to each other so that everyone will enjoy the game <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->