I actaly sat down one day, and wrote up an idea that should help competive combat. It forces aliens to act more like regular NS. But it encourages marine rushes, since aliens no longer gain exp from kills, but from time now. <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=87154' target='_blank'>Here</a>
Hive 3 weapons and Onos need to be disabled. Also disable GLs--play with this for a little and see if it's balanced. I'd think that it would still be a little alien biased...
Why not mod Combat, remove the Hive and CC and make it command point based... ie there are X res nodes on the map and you get Y points per minute while you hold a node, whoever has more points wins...
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+May 26 2005, 04:18 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ May 26 2005, 04:18 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Hive 3 weapons and Onos need to be disabled. Also disable GLs--play with this for a little and see if it's balanced. I'd think that it would still be a little alien biased...
Why not mod Combat, remove the Hive and CC and make it command point based... ie there are X res nodes on the map and you get Y points per minute while you hold a node, whoever has more points wins... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, that one combat mod romano made. That thing owned.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven+May 26 2005, 09:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven @ May 26 2005, 09:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yeah, that one combat mod romano made. That thing owned.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought that project was never completed. Has anyone got a download link?
Currently it isnt enjoyable. It was designed as a "practice" for classic, a way of introducing new players to the game.
That isnt what is happening tho! Skulking skills have halved on average through the community to say the least.
People are learning to just cloak/focus/xeno/etc and it loses appeal from the lame players.
I think it NEEDS to be more aimed at people learning the basic skills. e.g. low upgraded marine, 1 upgrade fade, low upgrade sg etc. Skulks should not be roaming around with all 3 SC upgrades and just getting easy boring frags. It puts the competative players off and doesnt help the newer players develope properly.
What I would love to see happen is:
For a start! Half the number of levels. 5 levels.. soo, fade with only 2 upgrades, onos with 1 upgrade, low upgraded heavy weapon marines or high upgraded light weapon marines. This would make people learn to use their own ability and be less dependant on upgrades. You wouldnt see as many onos' or fades and skulks with every upgrade under the sun. Less mine spam and GL spam, things that don't require the main skills of aiming/movement/quick thinking that combat SHOULD be aimed at and are more fun!
Secondly: aliens: only allow one upgrade from each chamber! So people can't cloak focus etc and slowly learn the more beneficial upgrades for combat as alien. It would be a closer game to ns_ and im sure alien skills would improve.
Make jetpacks/HA available on armour 1 but keep the cost of 2 res.. this would allow people to still jetpack/HA shotgun but without resupply making them much weaker, as people always want to practice jetpack movement with shotguns (being it a fair bit harder to keep accuracy when moving at a higher speed)
These changes wouldnt effect the balance greatly but they would stop so many of the things that make combat boring.. like super sensory chamber aliens.
Nothing should be disabled as people need to learn how to use things and how they work. But hopefully it would force people out of the habbits of using the "boring upgrades".
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-puzl+May 26 2005, 07:05 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (puzl @ May 26 2005, 07:05 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven+May 26 2005, 09:28 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven @ May 26 2005, 09:28 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Yeah, that one combat mod romano made. That thing owned.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought that project was never completed. Has anyone got a download link? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It was playable on several maps.
<ul><li>Limit alien upgrades to one per chamber.</li><li>2nd and 3rd hive abilites will cost aliens 2 points each.</li><li>Only 2 of the 3 higher lifeforms allowed per round (lerk, fade, onos).</li><li>4v4 format on smaller combat maps only e.g. pulse, faceoff, core etc.</li></ul>
I was just thinking: Mines. Usually on a pub combat server, I'll never get mines because I rarely die. There are tons of marines who suck really hard though and die and get to plant mines all over the base. What about suiciding (sewer in co_daimos, that long elevator drop in co_daimos...) and teamkilling?
Guys, try to make the ideas quick and easy to implement. Developing new game modes (romano mode) is cool but honestly you may as well as make another game.
Think of ways to balance combat is the fewest changes possible to make it work for competetive play, that would be easy to use, and would balance out the game.
The objective, in my eyes, would be to make it so marines can have a good strong start at attacking the aliens hive, and aliens get great tech as the game goes on but marines level up evenly enough to continually put pressure on aliens. More skilled team should win.
I would suggest:
- Remove 3rd hive abilities - Hive 2 abilities cost 2 points (gorges, admittedly, would lose a ton of their fun if they lost webs, but webs are too strong... perhaps make bile bomb deal 3x as much in CO, so they are basically are CC killers) - Make the CC electrified, so marines do not have to worry about defending it in early game, but later game the electricity wouldn't do jack against fades/onos, CC kills do not give exp to marines - Attacking the CC yeilds no exp for aliens; attacking the hive still gives marines exp - Make the side tech tree for marines useful by making "combo" packs you get with an upgrade point -- Welder + Nades -- Scan + Catpacks -- MT + Mines - Marines can level up to lv. 12 to compensate for the fact that aliens have better end game tech, yet to reach lv. 12 would require many alien kills to balance out this "out-teching" factor - Aliens can only get 2 upgrades from any given chamber (this will stop the redempting onos of doom, because this means it would lose carapace or regen, it would stop a lot of things, and add some importance to which upgrades a player chooses) - Turn grenades in napalm nades, so they do damage over time to an area, and so nades wouldn't suck
This would be one minor patch, and then the next patch would easily fix remaining issues because this minor patch would reveal any (if any) points where aliens are still too strong.
These changes also solve all the major problems I can think of; webs, xeno, super onos who can't die, certain useless marine tech, making marines stronger late game, allowing rines to attack freely without worrying about CC, time limit also means marines must attack or lose.
The above changes make the game set, and actually ready.
romano's combat mod wasn't exactly like nada's idea, it was more like that one mode in ut2k4 where you capture ndoes then you cna hit the base, nodes were RTs and the base was the hive or cc, you had to have them all capped then you could hit the hive/node/whatever and you got points for capping
Get rid of the CC. Remove the third hive abilities. Limit to one onos. Allow marines 3 - 4 seconds of spawn invulnerability and the ability to shuffle points (hambone mode!).
A flexible marine team devoted solely to playing offense.. At best it will represent a well resourced marine team going up against a two hive alien team at midgame of real ns. At worst there will just be fades camping marine start with no CC to end the thing. Maybe not the best idea. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
We have a Metamod plugin created to limit aliens abilities in the following respects: <ul><li>Alien players are limited to one upgrade per chamber.</li><li>2nd and 3rd hive abilities will each cost 2 points.</li><li>Only 2 of the 3 higher lifeforms may exist in any game (lerk and fade, lerk and onos, fade and onos).</li><li>This plugin was designed for 4v4 format, and will only work with mp_tournament enabled.</li></ul>Thanks to Zunni and Puzl for their input on how best to balance combat for competitive play. Zunni and Nem are contemplating how to best playtest this.
<!--QuoteBegin-Church+Jun 18 2005, 08:01 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Church @ Jun 18 2005, 08:01 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Combat is good for shotty practice...yep...that's about it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually with the new CompetitiveCombat plugin just released it's relatively balanced. You should try it ...
Are there any servers running this plugin yet depot?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Seems there's only one download for that one puzl, and we're not getting any feedback on it, so I'd have to say no. CombatLite was actually a request by lump that we made public.
There seems to be more interest in the CompetitiveCombat plugin available <a href='http://nsmod.ugleague.org/forums1/index.php?showtopic=155' target='_blank'>here</a>. This is the one you and Zunni helped me determine exactly what to implement into it. Emanon currently runs it on his server/s, and has made one request which I am trying hard to get coded in: rather than make it mandatory to have mp_tournamentmode enabled, have a cvar for it whereas you could have mp_tournamentmode disabled <b>OR </b>enabled.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zombies and Robots+Jun 19 2005, 09:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zombies and Robots @ Jun 19 2005, 09:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Nooooo....
Please, no competitive combat. Combat is already three times as popular as ns, and making it competitive may just knock NS mode out. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> lol
Some ideas I haven't thought through really well, but we're free to say whatever, right?
1) Double the experience needed for each level. This is so the team that wins the opening melee isn't at so great of an advantage. Makes the game last longer, but the action's still the same. Makes each tech phase (think lmg's, shotties, jetpacks for marines) deeper.
2) Make bigger maps so you actually have to hold territory somewhat as you move. Aliens would probably have the advantage because of speed, but like a trench warfare kind of thing with underground passages...just seems pretty cool to me. If the map's been made and flopped horribly, sorry.
3) Let gorges make chambers for two points each, if you're taking away webs. Killing the gorge makes them go away, maybe? Just seems like there'd be a bit of strategy if you could SC the hive area or just have some OC's mucking everything up for when the marines come. When the chamber dies, the gorge gets the points back. I'd say keep the building time the same.
omg no! you want oc's in combat? what the hell? that would be worse. if you are really going to make co competitive then you must remove webs and xenocide! This is a must.
<!--QuoteBegin-Splinter Steve?+Jun 19 2005, 08:30 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Splinter Steve? @ Jun 19 2005, 08:30 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Some ideas I haven't thought through really well, but we're free to say whatever, right?
1) Double the experience needed for each level. This is so the team that wins the opening melee isn't at so great of an advantage. Makes the game last longer, but the action's still the same. Makes each tech phase (think lmg's, shotties, jetpacks for marines) deeper.
2) Make bigger maps so you actually have to hold territory somewhat as you move. Aliens would probably have the advantage because of speed, but like a trench warfare kind of thing with underground passages...just seems pretty cool to me. If the map's been made and flopped horribly, sorry.
3) Let gorges make chambers for two points each, if you're taking away webs. Killing the gorge makes them go away, maybe? Just seems like there'd be a bit of strategy if you could SC the hive area or just have some OC's mucking everything up for when the marines come. When the chamber dies, the gorge gets the points back. I'd say keep the building time the same.
Then again, combat sucks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Maybe you should play that 'classic' ns style for a little bit. Buildings and big maps should never be part of combat. Doubling the experience just drags on the game and the dynamic portion of the game.
Maybe I AM playing classic NS. I pretty much stopped combat altogether a while ago, save some shottie practice.
I really think chambers at two points a piece instead of third hive abilities is a balanced change. OC's vs resupply really don't do that much, and this works against the whole rambo mentality because it promotes the teamwork factor. If you want to have competitive TEAMS, I just thought...meh. If you took this idea out to it's logical conclusion, you'd probably get classic mode. I'll just be going back to that, now...
Guys, regardless if you yourselves will be playing competitive combat for whatever reasons, depot has dont some great work here in creating this plugin to attempt to balance Co. I mean, hell, if Co was balanced then maybe people would lose interest in it and finally move onto Classic :/
<!--QuoteBegin-nIn+Jun 20 2005, 01:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (nIn @ Jun 20 2005, 01:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> omg no! you want oc's in combat? what the hell? that would be worse. if you are really going to make co competitive then you must remove webs and xenocide! This is a must. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Only if Jetpacks are removed as well.
because we all know you can hold down shift and the left mouse button... we don't need to see it in game.
You may lol now... but the current NS Classic competative scene is incredibly hard to get into. New clans are decimated by older and more expirienced ones because the gap between pubs and clan play grows more and more each patch it seems.
Well if anyone would like to try the plugin depot made, (its suprisingly close to balanced atleast closer than default.) it can be found on the server in my sig, running 24/7 although the server goes to classic at 9 players.
Comments
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=87154' target='_blank'>Here</a>
Why not mod Combat, remove the Hive and CC and make it command point based... ie there are X res nodes on the map and you get Y points per minute while you hold a node, whoever has more points wins...
Why not mod Combat, remove the Hive and CC and make it command point based... ie there are X res nodes on the map and you get Y points per minute while you hold a node, whoever has more points wins... <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, that one combat mod romano made. That thing owned.
Yeah, that one combat mod romano made. That thing owned.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought that project was never completed. Has anyone got a download link?
Currently it isnt enjoyable. It was designed as a "practice" for classic, a way of introducing new players to the game.
That isnt what is happening tho! Skulking skills have halved on average through the community to say the least.
People are learning to just cloak/focus/xeno/etc and it loses appeal from the lame players.
I think it NEEDS to be more aimed at people learning the basic skills. e.g. low upgraded marine, 1 upgrade fade, low upgrade sg etc. Skulks should not be roaming around with all 3 SC upgrades and just getting easy boring frags. It puts the competative players off and doesnt help the newer players develope properly.
What I would love to see happen is:
For a start! Half the number of levels. 5 levels.. soo, fade with only 2 upgrades, onos with 1 upgrade, low upgraded heavy weapon marines or high upgraded light weapon marines. This would make people learn to use their own ability and be less dependant on upgrades. You wouldnt see as many onos' or fades and skulks with every upgrade under the sun. Less mine spam and GL spam, things that don't require the main skills of aiming/movement/quick thinking that combat SHOULD be aimed at and are more fun!
Secondly: aliens: only allow one upgrade from each chamber! So people can't cloak focus etc and slowly learn the more beneficial upgrades for combat as alien. It would be a closer game to ns_ and im sure alien skills would improve.
Make jetpacks/HA available on armour 1 but keep the cost of 2 res.. this would allow people to still jetpack/HA shotgun but without resupply making them much weaker, as people always want to practice jetpack movement with shotguns (being it a fair bit harder to keep accuracy when moving at a higher speed)
These changes wouldnt effect the balance greatly but they would stop so many of the things that make combat boring.. like super sensory chamber aliens.
Nothing should be disabled as people need to learn how to use things and how they work. But hopefully it would force people out of the habbits of using the "boring upgrades".
Yeah, that one combat mod romano made. That thing owned.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I thought that project was never completed. Has anyone got a download link? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It was playable on several maps.
1 thing to help with balance is a slow cc regen rate, similar to the hives. Just to take away the NEED for marines to buy welders.
Think of ways to balance combat is the fewest changes possible to make it work for competetive play, that would be easy to use, and would balance out the game.
The objective, in my eyes, would be to make it so marines can have a good strong start at attacking the aliens hive, and aliens get great tech as the game goes on but marines level up evenly enough to continually put pressure on aliens. More skilled team should win.
I would suggest:
- Remove 3rd hive abilities
- Hive 2 abilities cost 2 points (gorges, admittedly, would lose a ton of their fun if they lost webs, but webs are too strong... perhaps make bile bomb deal 3x as much in CO, so they are basically are CC killers)
- Make the CC electrified, so marines do not have to worry about defending it in early game, but later game the electricity wouldn't do jack against fades/onos, CC kills do not give exp to marines
- Attacking the CC yeilds no exp for aliens; attacking the hive still gives marines exp
- Make the side tech tree for marines useful by making "combo" packs you get with an upgrade point
-- Welder + Nades
-- Scan + Catpacks
-- MT + Mines
- Marines can level up to lv. 12 to compensate for the fact that aliens have better end game tech, yet to reach lv. 12 would require many alien kills to balance out this "out-teching" factor
- Aliens can only get 2 upgrades from any given chamber (this will stop the redempting onos of doom, because this means it would lose carapace or regen, it would stop a lot of things, and add some importance to which upgrades a player chooses)
- Turn grenades in napalm nades, so they do damage over time to an area, and so nades wouldn't suck
This would be one minor patch, and then the next patch would easily fix remaining issues because this minor patch would reveal any (if any) points where aliens are still too strong.
These changes also solve all the major problems I can think of; webs, xeno, super onos who can't die, certain useless marine tech, making marines stronger late game, allowing rines to attack freely without worrying about CC, time limit also means marines must attack or lose.
The above changes make the game set, and actually ready.
romano's combat mod wasn't exactly like nada's idea, it was more like that one mode in ut2k4 where you capture ndoes then you cna hit the base, nodes were RTs and the base was the hive or cc, you had to have them all capped then you could hit the hive/node/whatever and you got points for capping
Remove the third hive abilities.
Limit to one onos.
Allow marines 3 - 4 seconds of spawn invulnerability and the ability to shuffle points (hambone mode!).
A flexible marine team devoted solely to playing offense.. At best it will represent a well resourced marine team going up against a two hive alien team at midgame of real ns. At worst there will just be fades camping marine start with no CC to end the thing. Maybe not the best idea. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
We have a Metamod plugin created to limit aliens abilities in the following respects: <ul><li>Alien players are limited to one upgrade per chamber.</li><li>2nd and 3rd hive abilities will each cost 2 points.</li><li>Only 2 of the 3 higher lifeforms may exist in any game (lerk and fade, lerk and onos, fade and onos).</li><li>This plugin was designed for 4v4 format, and will only work with mp_tournament enabled.</li></ul>Thanks to Zunni and Puzl for their input on how best to balance combat for competitive play. Zunni and Nem are contemplating how to best playtest this.
Stay tuned for more .... ... .. .
Enjoy the suck mode!
Actually with the new CompetitiveCombat plugin just released it's relatively balanced. You should try it ...
Are there any servers running this plugin yet depot?
Are there any servers running this plugin yet depot?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Seems there's only one download for that one puzl, and we're not getting any feedback on it, so I'd have to say no. CombatLite was actually a request by lump that we made public.
There seems to be more interest in the CompetitiveCombat plugin available <a href='http://nsmod.ugleague.org/forums1/index.php?showtopic=155' target='_blank'>here</a>. This is the one you and Zunni helped me determine exactly what to implement into it. Emanon currently runs it on his server/s, and has made one request which I am trying hard to get coded in: rather than make it mandatory to have mp_tournamentmode enabled, have a cvar for it whereas you could have mp_tournamentmode disabled <b>OR </b>enabled.
Please, no competitive combat. Combat is already three times as popular as ns, and making it competitive may just knock NS mode out.
Please, no competitive combat. Combat is already three times as popular as ns, and making it competitive may just knock NS mode out. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol
1) Double the experience needed for each level. This is so the team that wins the opening melee isn't at so great of an advantage. Makes the game last longer, but the action's still the same. Makes each tech phase (think lmg's, shotties, jetpacks for marines) deeper.
2) Make bigger maps so you actually have to hold territory somewhat as you move. Aliens would probably have the advantage because of speed, but like a trench warfare kind of thing with underground passages...just seems pretty cool to me. If the map's been made and flopped horribly, sorry.
3) Let gorges make chambers for two points each, if you're taking away webs. Killing the gorge makes them go away, maybe? Just seems like there'd be a bit of strategy if you could SC the hive area or just have some OC's mucking everything up for when the marines come. When the chamber dies, the gorge gets the points back. I'd say keep the building time the same.
Then again, combat sucks.
1) Double the experience needed for each level. This is so the team that wins the opening melee isn't at so great of an advantage. Makes the game last longer, but the action's still the same. Makes each tech phase (think lmg's, shotties, jetpacks for marines) deeper.
2) Make bigger maps so you actually have to hold territory somewhat as you move. Aliens would probably have the advantage because of speed, but like a trench warfare kind of thing with underground passages...just seems pretty cool to me. If the map's been made and flopped horribly, sorry.
3) Let gorges make chambers for two points each, if you're taking away webs. Killing the gorge makes them go away, maybe? Just seems like there'd be a bit of strategy if you could SC the hive area or just have some OC's mucking everything up for when the marines come. When the chamber dies, the gorge gets the points back. I'd say keep the building time the same.
Then again, combat sucks. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Maybe you should play that 'classic' ns style for a little bit. Buildings and big maps should never be part of combat. Doubling the experience just drags on the game and the dynamic portion of the game.
I really think chambers at two points a piece instead of third hive abilities is a balanced change. OC's vs resupply really don't do that much, and this works against the whole rambo mentality because it promotes the teamwork factor. If you want to have competitive TEAMS, I just thought...meh. If you took this idea out to it's logical conclusion, you'd probably get classic mode. I'll just be going back to that, now...
Only if Jetpacks are removed as well.
because we all know you can hold down shift and the left mouse button... we don't need to see it in game.
<!--QuoteBegin-JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JmmsbndZeroZeroSeven)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->lol<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You may lol now... but the current NS Classic competative scene is incredibly hard to get into. New clans are decimated by older and more expirienced ones because the gap between pubs and clan play grows more and more each patch it seems.
I get made fun of on a daily basis, but really, its the internet, get over it.
Enjoy