Combat
NGE
Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22443Members
Join Date: 2003-11-10 Member: 22443Members
<div class="IPBDescription">How could it be made competetive?</div> Before someone says "OMG COMBUT SUKZZZ pR0S PLEAY NS n00|3", don't.
Combat as it stands is hugely alien baised and is exceedingly frustrating to play as marines.
However, it's fine for most pubs because of the large skill imbalances found on public servers.
But on competetive play, (the last match of combat I can remember is over a year ago I think back in UGL) marines never stand a chance.
The problems I can think off the top of my head with competetive combat:
- Aliens have upper hand at start, they just camp in hive room. Aliens in hive room have an advantage over basic marines. The +5 armor does help with this though.
- You can TK someone stealing any exp from the other team.
- Focus owns, spending a point on a welder is not practical. Furthermore welding mid combat is often sucidal.
- HA is awful because it is so slow. By the time you hit the hive, die, and respawn, the hive can easily be re-healed in that time by one gorge. On top of this, if the aliens are smart they will just wreck the CC if they know the HA are more than halfway to the hive. In regular NS, the problem of slow heavies are phase gates.
- Because HA sucks, the only other choice is JP. JP is an excellent choice regardless, because it can cover the map, attack and defend, and put constant pressure on the hive.
- Webs and Xeno are godlike in NS. Normally the best abilities in the game, they can come at lv. 5 and lv. 3, respectively. These two abilities alone are the biggest problem in combat, and guarentee that marines cannot win.
- Late game marine tech doesn't even compare to late game alien tech in combat.
- The "accessory" tree for marines is utterly worthless, save resupply and perhaps a welder marine.
What other problems are there in combat? Did I miss any? And feel free to post ideas for possible solutions too.
Combat as it stands is hugely alien baised and is exceedingly frustrating to play as marines.
However, it's fine for most pubs because of the large skill imbalances found on public servers.
But on competetive play, (the last match of combat I can remember is over a year ago I think back in UGL) marines never stand a chance.
The problems I can think off the top of my head with competetive combat:
- Aliens have upper hand at start, they just camp in hive room. Aliens in hive room have an advantage over basic marines. The +5 armor does help with this though.
- You can TK someone stealing any exp from the other team.
- Focus owns, spending a point on a welder is not practical. Furthermore welding mid combat is often sucidal.
- HA is awful because it is so slow. By the time you hit the hive, die, and respawn, the hive can easily be re-healed in that time by one gorge. On top of this, if the aliens are smart they will just wreck the CC if they know the HA are more than halfway to the hive. In regular NS, the problem of slow heavies are phase gates.
- Because HA sucks, the only other choice is JP. JP is an excellent choice regardless, because it can cover the map, attack and defend, and put constant pressure on the hive.
- Webs and Xeno are godlike in NS. Normally the best abilities in the game, they can come at lv. 5 and lv. 3, respectively. These two abilities alone are the biggest problem in combat, and guarentee that marines cannot win.
- Late game marine tech doesn't even compare to late game alien tech in combat.
- The "accessory" tree for marines is utterly worthless, save resupply and perhaps a welder marine.
What other problems are there in combat? Did I miss any? And feel free to post ideas for possible solutions too.
Comments
My other problem is that people that do intangibles (such as parasiting, leading the charge and damaging the enemy so the other people can kill them, guarding base, etc) can end up screwed, while someone hiding in a vent could level up quickly. A team could conceivably run a strat around that, keeping one person alive to level up quickly and exploit the inevitable advantage. Sharing experience amongst all team members, or basing it off damage done or something would help solve these issues and focus the game more on teamplay.
This aint a bad idea...
Balancing a few of these things could also make combat so much more enjoyable. Yes i love NS waaaay better, but if i have little time i love playing a good game of CO.
Maybe doing things like nerfing spores and xeno and webs will increase co's playability, and might just make a co league possible...
Good idea m8.
self welding would be nifty also.
plus some kind of change with redempt would nice, aka it wouldnt go off if your too close to the hive. Not much an issue, just a thought on combat in general ..
However, to balance it, the hive 3 abilities need to be pushed back in the tree somehow, or something else drastic. Hive 3 abilities are intended to END THE GAME in NS. Leap is also a very big problem since it comes at hive 2 in NS, 30 seconds in combat. Skulks that are easier to kill are to make up for the fades and such in NS, but in CO, skulks are equal or greater than marines early on.
The largest imbalance is in the distribution of power, especially higher lifeforms. Marines rely on them all being upgraded with equal powerboosts. A single jetpacker can't own entire teams (If they're good).
A single fade will never die and will rack up kills like there's no tomorrow.
welcome to 3 months ago.
You have the same problem with higher lifeforms in CO (especially with redempt). In NS, if an Onos rushes marine spawn, kills one LA marine, and gets gunned down by the rest of the team, he's just wasted a huge quantity of res--the marine team gains substantial benefit from having focused all of their manpower on one enemy. In CO mode, if that Onos rushes marine spawn, kills one LA, and dies, he comes out even--and if he can kill two LAs, he comes out ahead. The problem only gets worse with redemption, where an Onos can now rush, kill one LA, redempt--and he has gained exp, while denying any benefit whatsoever to the marines.
There is the additional problem that CO aliens in general are more powerful than NS aliens, while CO marines tend to be weaker than NS marines. At level 10, a stomp onos will have 4 upgrades, instead of the 2-3 he would have in NS. A Fade will have 5. Meanwhile, a level 10 marine has to pick and choose between his wide variety of upgrades, which he would probably have ALL of in NS. Do you get a welder? Do you get those extra weapons upgrades? Do you bother buying an HMG? How about maxing out armor? MotionTracking? Pick and choose what you like, but the end result will be a weaker marine than a late-game NS marine, facing stuff more devastating than anything NS marines run into.
I'd like to point out that this, although it is a problem, isn't as big as everyone thinks. Resupply (especially for jetpackers) and the lack of Hive2/3 armor bonuses offset the problem somewhat.
One shotgun can own 6 skulks, but one fade could fight 6 shotgunners off the hive. Fades reach a hive two level very quickly, but in ns you need a team of proto marines to deal with one or two fades that powerful. But the time all marines have proto tech, all the aliens are hive 3 fades. What was done was the alien and marine tech trees were put side by side. The problem is that they were never meant to be side to side, but staggered. Full marine tech can not deal with full alien tech, but co was balanced with a belief in this.
welcome to 3 months ago. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem there is that leave out a ton of problems, it's placed in the I&S forums (haha) and it has virtually no input.
Furthermore a 7 min game for CO is too short, 10-12 is more appropirate otherwise you can't hit the higher levels of tech (which is designed to bring the game to a conclusion faster, remember?)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The problem with Xeno isn't that it's such a powerful weapon--its really not. The problem is just that once you start using xeno, the other team gets no experience off of you. Even if you only manage to kill 1 marine for every 2 xenos you pull off, you are still slowly gaining experience, and the poor marines who have to fight you gain no benefit when you die.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Xeno strips ALL the armor off any marines in a huge radius, making them focus food.
It's so good, too good, mm mm good.
Where's the 5 minute option?
Note how the rounds fly in competitive CS. It's really fun! It should be like that... just a thought.
"Is competitive combat any different than it used to be? I only played a couple of combat scrims back when it came out, and it was entirely stupid. Both teams camped hard for over half the round until one person invariably made a mistake at which time their team got crushed quickly due to level 1s spawning in versus level 4 or higher leaping skulks or shotties."
Also, I read JazzX's suggestion thread and it's totally missing the point. Combat isn't not-fun because of marine structures and xeno/web, it's not fun because good players can dominate everyone else when given just a tiny edge. The first kill practically decides the game.
You completely missed the fact that the thread was suppose to be suggestion to make combat competitive ready. NOT to make it better or more fun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Zephor+May 23 2005, 11:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zephor @ May 23 2005, 11:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=90750' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....showtopic=90750</a>
welcome to 3 months ago. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem there is that leave out a ton of problems, it's placed in the I&S forums (haha) and it has virtually no input.
Furthermore a 7 min game for CO is too short, 10-12 is more appropirate otherwise you can't hit the higher levels of tech (which is designed to bring the game to a conclusion faster, remember?)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look which forum that is in. Ideas for Future Versions: Idea threads moved into this forum are being recognized as having some potential, but are of such a scale that it's unlikely to see them included in the current version of NS in development.
Further more, I&S is the only acceptable place to put it. Where would you put it? If you have a idea for NS why not put it in the Ideas forum? If you had a semi decent suggestion or idea I'm pretty sure they would listen to it. if you make some half thought out response then obviously they will just ignore it.
Also, did you even read the post?
Proposed Rough Outline of Competitive Combat in CAL:
4v4. Friendly Fire On. 7-<b>10 Minute Timer</b>. Played on the smaller Combat maps
You completely missed the fact that the thread was suppose to be suggestion to make combat competitive ready. NOT to make it better or more fun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-Zephor+May 23 2005, 11:12 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zephor @ May 23 2005, 11:12 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=90750' target='_blank'>http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index....showtopic=90750</a>
welcome to 3 months ago. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Problem there is that leave out a ton of problems, it's placed in the I&S forums (haha) and it has virtually no input.
Furthermore a 7 min game for CO is too short, 10-12 is more appropirate otherwise you can't hit the higher levels of tech (which is designed to bring the game to a conclusion faster, remember?)
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Look which forum that is in. Ideas for Future Versions: Idea threads moved into this forum are being recognized as having some potential, but are of such a scale that it's unlikely to see them included in the current version of NS in development.
Further more, I&S is the only acceptable place to put it. Where would you put it? If you have a idea for NS why not put it in the Ideas forum? If you had a semi decent suggestion or idea I'm pretty sure they would listen to it. if you make some half thought out response then obviously they will just ignore it.
Also, did you even read the post?
Proposed Rough Outline of Competitive Combat in CAL:
4v4. Friendly Fire On. 7-<b>10 Minute Timer</b>. Played on the smaller Combat maps <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well you are telling me here that this thread was already done 4 months ago, but I'm saying the purpose of this thread is to have some kind of competetive feedback on combat.
Your other thread is appropirate, but I feel that the best way to get changes is to bring it to light with many players, or directly to Flayra himself. Personally I have not seen many ideas go from I&S into NS over 3 years, and even with all the overhauls it's still not a big improvement.
In my experience the best way to get change within this game is to get a lot people to agree with you on the said idea, or to somehow go 1v1 with Flayra and convince him yourself.
I definately read your other thread, that's why I said I felt 7 min is too short, and that your thread didn't cover 1/10 of the current problems in CO.
Therefore, your proposed outline is severly flawed. Aliens are still going to dominate hardcore in CO because of things like early leap/spores/xeno/webs/fade etc etc. There needs to be a few good changes to CO before it's ready for competetive play.
BUT when someone buys an upgrade, thats non-lifeform/weapon they buy it for the WHOLE TEAM and when the guy who bought it dies the WHOLE TEAM loses that upgrade.
sounds radically different, but it would encourage more teamwork imo <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
that would be team play crazy..
only issue i see is that if a tam of 5 (in a 5 vs 5) stick together. then they will all level up at the same time, leading to confusion and a huge power jump.
i can see people outright not wanting cloak because of scan... however i've learned with silence you can get round that by biting <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Why not award 1 bonus point to the aliens IF they are successful in destroying the marine base before time expires? I'd think there is much less chance BOTH teams would be able to accomplish that, and therefore the tie is broken.
Competitively this should be enough to alter strategies significantly, and would not require any modifications to the game itself. Yeah, I like this idea .... ... ... . <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I am now CONVINCED you did not read what jazz posted at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The third hive weaponry presents some interesting problems in Combat that are not seen in Classic mode. <b>Xenocide allows a Skulk to inflict potentially massive amounts of damage while robbing the marines of Experience, and when used en masse creates a no-win situation for the Marines. Web is one of the most potent weapons in NS, but thanks to its limited availability (only after 3rd Hive is acquired) it's not terribly imbalancing in Classic mode. However in Combat it is very easy to unlock the 3rd Hive weapons, and as such Web is extremely overpowered.</b>
The simplest solution here is to remove the ability to unlock the 3rd hive upgrades for the Aliens. The loss of Primal Scream, Acid Rocket and Charge are probably negligible issues, as in most cases it is more advantageous for players to select an additional upgrade or two over the 3rd hive ability when playing these classes. If the proposed solution is undesirable, for whatever reason, then removing the Gorge as a playable class, and changing the nature of Xenocide (probably by giving out XP to players injured by Xenocide blasts and denying XP to the xenocider himself, or something similar) could also potentially solve the problem though things such as the rate of the Hive's self-healing would probably need to be evaluated as there would be no chance of a Gorge being able to give the hive a quick boost of health.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Second kill--it takes 2 kills to get a level. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I am now CONVINCED you did not read what jazz posted at all.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
The third hive weaponry presents some interesting problems in Combat that are not seen in Classic mode. <b>Xenocide allows a Skulk to inflict potentially massive amounts of damage while robbing the marines of Experience, and when used en masse creates a no-win situation for the Marines. Web is one of the most potent weapons in NS, but thanks to its limited availability (only after 3rd Hive is acquired) it's not terribly imbalancing in Classic mode. However in Combat it is very easy to unlock the 3rd Hive weapons, and as such Web is extremely overpowered.</b>
The simplest solution here is to remove the ability to unlock the 3rd hive upgrades for the Aliens. The loss of Primal Scream, Acid Rocket and Charge are probably negligible issues, as in most cases it is more advantageous for players to select an additional upgrade or two over the 3rd hive ability when playing these classes. If the proposed solution is undesirable, for whatever reason, then removing the Gorge as a playable class, and changing the nature of Xenocide (probably by giving out XP to players injured by Xenocide blasts and denying XP to the xenocider himself, or something similar) could also potentially solve the problem though things such as the rate of the Hive's self-healing would probably need to be evaluated as there would be no chance of a Gorge being able to give the hive a quick boost of health.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's more than web/xeno changes that will fix combat, but admittedly those two are the biggest problems with CO.
You completely missed the fact that the thread was suppose to be suggestion to make combat competitive ready. NOT to make it better or more fun.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Note that none of those suggestions actually makes combat "competitive ready" considering the fact that, unless something has changed between a year ago and now, competitive combat isn't worth playing.
The flaw with combat isn't really a matter of competitive vs pub play. It's a core flaw with the game; skilled players just make it obvious. Combat heavily rewards the team that camps the best. <b>We all know that the only reason pub combat is fun at all is because of the players at the bottom of the kill list that let everyone else level up.</b> In a game where there is no silly pub rushers, the difference between level 1 and level 2 is magnified a lot. The changes in JazzX's thread don't address that issue, thus they don't address the reason competitive combat isn't ready, or isn't fun, or whatever particular pet term you want to use to describe the same problem.
Bingo. Combat's flaw is that the ONLY thing that matters is K:D ratio. That results in a campfest.
The entire reason NS is so damned great as a competitive game is because risks reap rewards. suicide rushes on mostly dead RTs, Hives, marine structures, rushes against equipped marines when you'll probably die, chasing a fade even though it'll probably get you killed, etc etc etc.
It's great because the game rewards taking risks becuase the reward can be far greater. That dead fade LOSES 50 res. In Combat he respawns, Also, there is actually importance in holding parts of the map. (RTs and phase locations.) Kill ratio ISN'T the most important thing in NS. Taking territory matters more, so you have battles for that territory.
Combat has NONE of this. 2 things matter: K:D and Hive/CC HP, and since the latter is in the opposing team's base, plus the fact that the K:D ratio importance encourages camping, means that the only thing that matters is killing without dying.
And that, my friends, is supremely not fun. If the game isn't fun, it's not really viable as a competitive game anyway. As the icing on the cake, Co is horribly unbalanced as well.
What's the point in trying to make it viable? There's already a game mode designed for organized team play.
It's like going to a chess tournament and asking all the players if they'd like to play paper rock scissors instead. What's the point?
Agreed with 100%.
It is this fact that makes small games in pubs seem so much harder--if the other team has 2 good players, and 6 lousy ones, you can get kills off the poor players to buy the items you need to fight the good players with. But when the other team has 2 good players, and 1 poor one, its far harder to keep up with the good players now that you spend most of your time fighting them yourself. And when the 1 poor player leaves, the other team doesn't respond with <b>"We outnumber them now, we've got a chance!"</b> Rather, they respond with, <b>"Oh no! Our cannon fodder left! Where are we going to get experience from now?"</b> And then they settle in to be beat to death by the pair of fades...
Now imagine the game has nothing <i>but</i> skilled players. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
10 points altogether
--------------------
3 points on Fade
3 points on Acid Rocket
2 Points on Focus
2 Points left, preferably Adrenaline to deal with Acid Rocket drain and something else
What the Fade does is sit back as Acid Rocket the marine's armor to 0, and then swoops in and Focus's the entire marine team. Well there goes 6 good men. He doesnt have to do it all at once either.
Fade blinks in, kills one, runs and heals. Comes back, kills 1 or 2, run and heals. Comes back, kills 1 or 2, runs and heals. Comes back and finishes off the train, runs and heals. Fades upset me so much because that is all they are good for is hitting and running. They're the biggest cowards in the game. They might say "OMG J00 JU$7 C4N7 K1LL M3 LOLROFL".
Shut up. Lets take the fully upgraded Fade and pit them against a Fully upgraded marine. Jetpack? No, Fade shoots it down with Acid Rocket and then Blinks and Swipes. Whoop-dee-doo. HA? Fade sits back and Acid Rocket's the HA'a Armor to 0, therefor making it a slow-moving target. Focus, and its done. Vanilla marine? Bah! Useless matchup. Fade wins always, good game. The perfect Solo unit that doesnt need any backup to stand toe to toe with marines of all varieties.
***make focus cost 1 point again and raise the cost for unlock1 to 2 points***
At the moment a leap skulk is extremely superior, when compared to a lvl 2 marine. Raising the cost for leap to 2 points, but lowering the cost of focus does not affect the overall cost of anti jp fade and lerk, but slows down alien domination during the first 2 minutes. As well as it delays xeno and web.
***limit the max # of lifeforms on the alien side***
1 onos 1 fade 2 lerks 2 gorges should be able to deal with anything. marines dont have to deal with 4 fades later on.
***unchain ha from au2 and chain it to the welder***
might make ha usefull on small maps (core, faceoff)
***make mines more usefull***
mines should either resuply themself every 20-30 seconds (thats about 20 mines per match, if you get them asap) or you should be able to lay 4 of them at any time and when you lay a fifth mine, mine # 1 gets deactivated.
***make HG usefull***
let resuply affect grenades
***change catpacks***
catalyst kicks in, when you succesfully damaged something and not after you killed an alien (requires about 10-15 seconds cooldown)
I tried to nerf aliens and buff marines witheout needing to remove entire traits.
When making comments on this one, please keep in mind not to mention pubs. (I am pretty aware that focus for only 1 point will own many pubbers <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->)