<!--QuoteBegin-coris+May 19 2005, 12:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (coris @ May 19 2005, 12:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Garet Jax+May 19 2005, 06:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Garet Jax @ May 19 2005, 06:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Contrary to what coris says (note, this is an opinion only) I think that free upgrades has made skulking more fun.
Before I was restricted to a couple of tactics, now I can mix things up a bit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's more fun because it's a lot easier to skulk now. You need less skill to kill stuff..
It has also taken a lot of the fun out from the marine-side of the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a wash. The "fun"ness of the marine side hasn't changed at all. And, maybe I'm alone in this, but I always felt alien-side to be tons more stressful than marine because of the necessity of maintaining a decent kill ratio against good marines - as skulk before R4K it was because of the 1 hive spawn issues, after it was because you didn't want to add res to the marine's dominance.
Any extreme opposition to skulk second and third hive abilities having a gestation time? (Perhaps even having a res requirement.) Would lessen the cannon-fodder mentality of leap skulks slightly. Leap seems to really aggravate the difficulty of marine recovery from a two-hive team. As a free counterpoint, it would greatly increase the effectiveness of jetpack assaults on hives (higher lifeforms would be a necessity to successfully defend the hive).
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
Only drawback with adding gestation time is that it's non-interactive and boring.
A resource requirement for each additional evolution (1 rp for 2nd hive, 2 rp for 3rd hive * lifeform level?) would be a better solution in terms of playability.
It then adds a resource management aspect to the process, rather than a sitting still doing bugger all aspect.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Anderval+May 19 2005, 07:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anderval @ May 19 2005, 07:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If everyone would stop trying to nerf aliens and talk about buffing marines, we would have an easier time talking about the balance issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why?
i've already stated that personally id prefer to use alien nerfs to balance ns and have talked about what these could possibly be, i believe these changes would be much more effective than any number of upgrade time tweaks though i guess making the aa finish 10seconds earlier would allow marines to kill focus celerity leaping skulks no prob <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> . If you want to see marine buffs then post about them yourself.
i just cant understand why people would prefer to balance by only using buffs, it seems like a totally crazy way to balance a game.
also, Adj no offense but have you actually managed to play 3.0f in a proper clan environment? because if not then i really dont see how you can post on balance changes for it <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Whether or not I've played 3.0F in a "proper clan environment" (and I did ring in quite a few 3.0F scrims just last month) doesn't have any bearing on my balance preference being buffs. The reasoning behind buffs over nerfs is it will continue to allow aliens to use the skills they've gained, while nerfs simply take away from the game versus adding to it. Instead of taking little snipes at me, read that entire post instead of quoting a single line then bashing me. I stated what I believed should happen and why that would be effective, note that I did not attack anyone in my post directly.
Readding a cost to upgrades won't remove a skill that aliens had gained. I don't think people really appreciated the strength of upgrades before they were free, a middle ground between 3.0f and b5 would appear to be the best solution. I think people would continue to take upgrades but rather than taking them so mindlessly, they'd be forced to think about when the best time would be and how to make the most of them. That is not a bad thing at all.
Balance for marine buffs could have any number of impacts on other parts of the game and could take forever to achieve, simply tweaking a few values on tech time and res won't make the game balanced. We know that in b5 marines were considered a superior class, we know that in 3.0f it's aliens. A middle ground between the two would appear to be the most balanced. It's hardly a step back if the end result is a better game.
<!--QuoteBegin-TheAdj+May 20 2005, 12:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheAdj @ May 20 2005, 12:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Anderval+May 19 2005, 07:06 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anderval @ May 19 2005, 07:06 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If everyone would stop trying to nerf aliens and talk about buffing marines, we would have an easier time talking about the balance issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why?
i've already stated that personally id prefer to use alien nerfs to balance ns and have talked about what these could possibly be, i believe these changes would be much more effective than any number of upgrade time tweaks though i guess making the aa finish 10seconds earlier would allow marines to kill focus celerity leaping skulks no prob <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> . If you want to see marine buffs then post about them yourself.
i just cant understand why people would prefer to balance by only using buffs, it seems like a totally crazy way to balance a game.
also, Adj no offense but have you actually managed to play 3.0f in a proper clan environment? because if not then i really dont see how you can post on balance changes for it <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Whether or not I've played 3.0F in a "proper clan environment" (and I did ring in quite a few 3.0F scrims just last month) doesn't have any bearing on my balance preference being buffs. The reasoning behind buffs over nerfs is it will continue to allow aliens to use the skills they've gained, while nerfs simply take away from the game versus adding to it. Instead of taking little snipes at me, read that entire post instead of quoting a single line then bashing me. I stated what I believed should happen and why that would be effective, note that I did not attack anyone in my post directly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> no but it does have bearing on how much experience you actually have on 3.0f to be commenting on specific balances changes for it, please note im not trying to have a dig at you as you seem to think, i couldn't care less, i was merely interested if your opinions were as they are after playing consistantly with 3.0f.
I didnt quote the rest of your post because the rest of it was about different marine buffs which i didnt want to discuss at that time.
also, how would readding a lower resource cost take away from alien skills? there is no added skill with using upgrades, it merely boosts your existing ability. and for like the i dont know how manyth time nerfs do not equal bad gameplay.
edit: for puzls post (so i dont spam up the thread anymore <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->) the only reason i asked was to try to understand where the people who arnt in favour of alien nerfs (or are in favour of marine buffs, whichever way you look at it) were coming from, i certainly wasn't trying to question Adjs experience in ns or his ability at the game, i know he is a very skilled and intelligent player. And as for arguing or trying to prove a point between the two groups i would guess it's just a healthy debate now that most ideas have been put forward in this thread to help the devs determine which if any route to go with 3.1 balancing or a 3.0.4 patch.
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited May 2005
There is no need to prove each other wrong. If you want to do that then I suggest you make another topic.
I must admit I find it ironic that competitive players have now progressed to excluding each other based on experience. When will this madness stop - if an argument is flawed then it should be demonstratably so, when you resort to challenging the person's experience you take quite a lot from the overall signal to noise ratio of this topic.
Winning an argument with another competitive player does not make your point more correct, and it certainly does not improve your chances of being heard.
Need I remind... <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=93047' target='_blank'>of this forums policy.</a> My fault for not catching this in time, and <span style='color:red'>MISUNDERSTANDING tjosans point</span>. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> This rule does not imply that you can't question a community member about playing the current build.
<!--QuoteBegin-puzl+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (puzl)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Winning an argument with another competitive player does not make your point more correct, and it certainly does not improve your chances of being heard.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This is going into a future sticky.
Ontopic: Marine buffs to armor (check I&S for my super awsome post of power). Remove Alien r4k. Lower marine r4k. Balance to the force, this will bring.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
Re-introducing upgrade costs at say, 1rp a go, would be a nice thing to test. God knows it has been suggested often enough.
Following the Blizzard model, at this point most people too dumb to realise the benefit of upgrades or willing to experiment with them sufficiently have been <i>trained</i> to appreciate them via patches. Public and clan alike.
[Self-Censored]Unnecessary mockery of retards removed[/Self-Censored]
Perhaps now that a sufficient userbase exists that has been tutored of the benefits, it might be possible to reintroduce a cost for upgrades that won't immediately disuade people from utilising them.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
edited May 2005
The original argument for free upgrades was the chambers were paid for, so the upgrades should be free. It was also not cost efficient to get upgrades as a skulk for the average player, albeit in the competitive scene it was usually more effective. The problem was if skulks didn't break a 1:1 K/D ratio, the upgrade either cost res or paid itself off, it didn't help the skulk earn any res at all. Isn't the point of upgrades to enhance aliens so they are more effective, not possibly set them back or break even. Marine upgrades are permanent and are far more cost efficient than alien upgrades that require resources to acquire. There are other ways to alter the balance than change alien upgrade costs, which will throw alien balance off yet again.
Edit: I see you trolling Zunni, answer my pm please
I’m aware this has been suggested before but instead of removing free upgrades why not delay their early game appearance by making the chambers harder to get? Marines have to wait for w1,w2,w3 and the same for armor. Why not add a system similar for the aliens?
This is just one way of doing this: 1st chamber 10 res 2nd 15 3rd 20
Numbers are subject to change.
A delay in the incredible early boost skulks get with 3mts (or any chamber) could be very useful.
The game must achieve parallel Teching to get any consistent balance otherwise its like trying to balance a stack of Pool Balls.
<!--QuoteBegin-Emanon+May 20 2005, 11:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Emanon @ May 20 2005, 11:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I’m aware this has been suggested before but instead of removing free upgrades why not delay their early game appearance by making the chambers harder to get? Marines have to wait for w1,w2,w3 and the same for armor. Why not add a system similar for the aliens?
This is just one way of doing this: 1st chamber 10 res 2nd 15 3rd 20
Numbers are subject to change.
A delay in the incredible early boost skulks get with 3mts (or any chamber) could be very useful.
The game must achieve parallel Teching to get any consistent balance otherwise its like trying to balance a stack of Pool Balls. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> A couple reasons. The timetable for getting chambers in a 6 person game is already really complicated. You have to balance capping adequate nodes, getting your chambers and having sufficient skulks for map control early game. Further, the power of chambers 1, 2, 3 is not equivelant to the power of w1, w2, w3. At 3 chambers, most upgrades provide a very small benefit, percentage-wise. At one chamber, most upgrades are just completely useless (maybe with the exception of cloaking).
Also, I don't understand why you think "parallel teching" is necessary for balance. The game already moves through 3 distinct phases which is matched on both marine and alien sides (first, res control, shotties, walking marines, skulks and possibly lerks, second, phase-gates, map control, 2nd hive dropped, fades, third, 2nd hive finshed, adv armory finished, hmgs and possibly onos). Do we need to make their strategies and tech identical? Plus your metaphor doesn't make any sense.
That aside, it's pretty clear that what is causing the imbalance is skulks preventing early game dominance by marines, so balance changes should probably try to focus on that area like yours have.
I came up with that idea before, with +2 res after the first free upgrade. Though a lot of ppl don't like the +1 res or this idea because I guess they like having free upgrades...
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=93176' target='_blank'>First upgrade is free.</a>
There used to be a +1 res per upgrade link, but I can't find it. I think it's locked.
<!--QuoteBegin-Emanon+May 20 2005, 11:30 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Emanon @ May 20 2005, 11:30 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I’m aware this has been suggested before but instead of removing free upgrades why not delay their early game appearance by making the chambers harder to get? Marines have to wait for w1,w2,w3 and the same for armor. Why not add a system similar for the aliens?
This is just one way of doing this: 1st chamber 10 res 2nd 15 3rd 20
Numbers are subject to change.
A delay in the incredible early boost skulks get with 3mts (or any chamber) could be very useful.
The game must achieve parallel Teching to get any consistent balance otherwise its like trying to balance a stack of Pool Balls. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Major problem with this is that one gorge would need not 30 res, but 45 res... 3rd chambers wouldn't go up untill second hive goes up??
On top of this... 1 chamber suck, and 2 chamber abilities are mediocre.
<!--QuoteBegin-meep+May 20 2005, 12:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (meep @ May 20 2005, 12:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> A couple reasons. The timetable for getting chambers in a 6 person game is already really complicated. You have to balance capping adequate nodes, getting your chambers and having sufficient skulks for map control early game. Further, the power of chambers 1, 2, 3 is not equivelant to the power of w1, w2, w3. At 3 chambers, most upgrades provide a very small benefit, percentage-wise. At one chamber, most upgrades are just completely useless (maybe with the exception of cloaking).
Also, I don't understand why you think "parallel teching" is necessary for balance. The game already moves through 3 distinct phases which is matched on both marine and alien sides (first, res control, shotties, walking marines, skulks and possibly lerks, second, phase-gates, map control, 2nd hive dropped, fades, third, 2nd hive finshed, adv armory finished, hmgs and possibly onos). Do we need to make their strategies and tech identical? Plus your metaphor doesn't make any sense.
That aside, it's pretty clear that what is causing the imbalance is skulks preventing early game dominance by marines, so balance changes should probably try to focus on that area like yours have. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Good points, as the timetable is very complicated but it is quite evident that the chambers are coming too early otherwise this discussion wouldnt be occuring.
To elaborate on "Parallel Teching":
The Tech doesn't need to be identical on both sides but the tech and the counters to tech should reach the feild together. (Much like how SGs are usually in the field when the fade comes about.)
The metaphor was refering to the fact that people are relying on the marines dominence early game and then the alien dominence after Hive 2. If the cycle continues this swing of marine to alien balance issues from version to version will not stop or be very hard to. (ie balancing pool balls) Do not say the game is balanced because the marine's ownage of the first 5 minutes will be counterd by the aliens ownage of the last 5 minutes.
To truely have balance, every minute in the game should be looked at and balance should occur at every point.
<!--QuoteBegin-todd1Ok+May 20 2005, 12:58 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (todd1Ok @ May 20 2005, 12:58 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Unlink the proto from adv armory, and add 2 minutes to the researches.
reinstate upgrade gestation time to ...5...10 seconds? cant remember what it used to be. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No thanks. The upgrade gestation time should stay as is (short and sweet), even if it will cost res to upgrade in the future.
"The original argument for free upgrades was the chambers were paid for, so the upgrades should be free."
But a gorge pays for that res and it dosn't have a negative effect on the other aliens, but a positive one. The marines only have 1 res pool and thats the com, and him spending res effects everyone. So why shouldn't the aliens having to spend 1 or 2 res not for a upgrade have to affect everyone? If thats the case then the gun and armor upgrades should be free and you only have to pay for the armslab.
<!--QuoteBegin-MrBen+May 20 2005, 06:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrBen @ May 20 2005, 06:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Balance for marine buffs could have any number of impacts on other parts of the game and could take forever to achieve, simply tweaking a few values on tech time and res won't make the game balanced. We know that in b5 marines were considered a superior class, we know that in 3.0f it's aliens. A middle ground between the two would appear to be the most balanced. It's hardly a step back if the end result is a better game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Tweaking a few values won't make the game balanced? Wait, thats different from changing upgrade cost how? Or are you admitting that res for ugprades won't balance it either? And 'any number of impacts' - yeah, thats why we've played the game, to be able to predict the impact a change to the techtree like that will have. Theres no rule anywhere that research times and tech branching need to stay 100% static throughout all balance changes. So much of the game is determined by marine tech structure, its actually the most logical place to look when trying to improve gameflow and make win/loss slopes more sensible.
The problem with upgrade cost is nonlinearity of its impact - that means how much 1 res per upgrade hurts is heavily dependent on how screwed you already are. Assuming you're not that screwed yet, have at least one or two RTs - its a mild nerf to your RfK income, but you'll live just fine. If on the other hand you're lucky to not have lost your chambers yet and your team took a few significant blows, that one ressource cost per upgrade is going to make the hole you're in impossible to recover from with any realistic quality of play. The only way to get out of the <25 res/0 rts hole as aliens is after all RfK - RfK earned by kills, which at one hive almost require upgrades against anything but 0/0. Add that to all the other problems 1 Hive aliens still have, and we're just kicking the dog when he's down again, and only tangentially touching the midgame at all. It really is a significant step back towards the B5 problem of premature alien slippery slope.
A 0/1/1 plan would kind of work around this - but as already mentioned, it won't change much in the problems marine teams face. Its a nice little bandaid and thats about it.
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-TheGivingTree+May 20 2005, 04:45 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheGivingTree @ May 20 2005, 04:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "The original argument for free upgrades was the chambers were paid for, so the upgrades should be free."
But a gorge pays for that res and it dosn't have a negative effect on the other aliens, but a positive one. The marines only have 1 res pool and thats the com, and him spending res effects everyone. So why shouldn't the aliens having to spend 1 or 2 res not for a upgrade have to affect everyone? If thats the case then the gun and armor upgrades should be free and you only have to pay for the armslab. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> The commander can also turn around and drop a RT very shortly afterwards, all the marine res is pooled so he can <i>quickly</i> assign resources where they are needed. It takes a while for a gorge to get more res, the commander gets it all. The 30 res spent by a gorge to drop chambers is a significant number compared to the 50 res spent for a structure and an upgrade that will never go away. Aliens would spend far more in the course of a game if they all got upgrades like skulks do now and they cost even 1 res. Pull up a random current competitive demo and see how many times skulks die, then gestate ups when they spawn. You cannot directly compare 1 alien resource point to 1 marine point, it is comparing apples and oranges.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Ok, I'm closing this topic. Lots of feedback here: You've mapped some of the problems for us.
I advice that all direct suggestions you consider meaningful go into I&S (no, this is NOT a joke for those who will PM me with objections).
Comments
Before I was restricted to a couple of tactics, now I can mix things up a bit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's more fun because it's a lot easier to skulk now. You need less skill to kill stuff..
It has also taken a lot of the fun out from the marine-side of the game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a wash. The "fun"ness of the marine side hasn't changed at all. And, maybe I'm alone in this, but I always felt alien-side to be tons more stressful than marine because of the necessity of maintaining a decent kill ratio against good marines - as skulk before R4K it was because of the 1 hive spawn issues, after it was because you didn't want to add res to the marine's dominance.
Any extreme opposition to skulk second and third hive abilities having a gestation time? (Perhaps even having a res requirement.) Would lessen the cannon-fodder mentality of leap skulks slightly. Leap seems to really aggravate the difficulty of marine recovery from a two-hive team.
As a free counterpoint, it would greatly increase the effectiveness of jetpack assaults on hives (higher lifeforms would be a necessity to successfully defend the hive).
A resource requirement for each additional evolution (1 rp for 2nd hive, 2 rp for 3rd hive * lifeform level?) would be a better solution in terms of playability.
It then adds a resource management aspect to the process, rather than a sitting still doing bugger all aspect.
why?
i've already stated that personally id prefer to use alien nerfs to balance ns and have talked about what these could possibly be, i believe these changes would be much more effective than any number of upgrade time tweaks though i guess making the aa finish 10seconds earlier would allow marines to kill focus celerity leaping skulks no prob <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> . If you want to see marine buffs then post about them yourself.
i just cant understand why people would prefer to balance by only using buffs, it seems like a totally crazy way to balance a game.
also, Adj no offense but have you actually managed to play 3.0f in a proper clan environment? because if not then i really dont see how you can post on balance changes for it <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whether or not I've played 3.0F in a "proper clan environment" (and I did ring in quite a few 3.0F scrims just last month) doesn't have any bearing on my balance preference being buffs. The reasoning behind buffs over nerfs is it will continue to allow aliens to use the skills they've gained, while nerfs simply take away from the game versus adding to it. Instead of taking little snipes at me, read that entire post instead of quoting a single line then bashing me. I stated what I believed should happen and why that would be effective, note that I did not attack anyone in my post directly.
Balance for marine buffs could have any number of impacts on other parts of the game and could take forever to achieve, simply tweaking a few values on tech time and res won't make the game balanced. We know that in b5 marines were considered a superior class, we know that in 3.0f it's aliens. A middle ground between the two would appear to be the most balanced. It's hardly a step back if the end result is a better game.
why?
i've already stated that personally id prefer to use alien nerfs to balance ns and have talked about what these could possibly be, i believe these changes would be much more effective than any number of upgrade time tweaks though i guess making the aa finish 10seconds earlier would allow marines to kill focus celerity leaping skulks no prob <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> . If you want to see marine buffs then post about them yourself.
i just cant understand why people would prefer to balance by only using buffs, it seems like a totally crazy way to balance a game.
also, Adj no offense but have you actually managed to play 3.0f in a proper clan environment? because if not then i really dont see how you can post on balance changes for it <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Whether or not I've played 3.0F in a "proper clan environment" (and I did ring in quite a few 3.0F scrims just last month) doesn't have any bearing on my balance preference being buffs. The reasoning behind buffs over nerfs is it will continue to allow aliens to use the skills they've gained, while nerfs simply take away from the game versus adding to it. Instead of taking little snipes at me, read that entire post instead of quoting a single line then bashing me. I stated what I believed should happen and why that would be effective, note that I did not attack anyone in my post directly. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
no but it does have bearing on how much experience you actually have on 3.0f to be commenting on specific balances changes for it, please note im not trying to have a dig at you as you seem to think, i couldn't care less, i was merely interested if your opinions were as they are after playing consistantly with 3.0f.
I didnt quote the rest of your post because the rest of it was about different marine buffs which i didnt want to discuss at that time.
also, how would readding a lower resource cost take away from alien skills? there is no added skill with using upgrades, it merely boosts your existing ability. and for like the i dont know how manyth time nerfs do not equal bad gameplay.
edit: for puzls post (so i dont spam up the thread anymore <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->) the only reason i asked was to try to understand where the people who arnt in favour of alien nerfs (or are in favour of marine buffs, whichever way you look at it) were coming from, i certainly wasn't trying to question Adjs experience in ns or his ability at the game, i know he is a very skilled and intelligent player. And as for arguing or trying to prove a point between the two groups i would guess it's just a healthy debate now that most ideas have been put forward in this thread to help the devs determine which if any route to go with 3.1 balancing or a 3.0.4 patch.
I must admit I find it ironic that competitive players have now progressed to excluding each other based on experience. When will this madness stop - if an argument is flawed then it should be demonstratably so, when you resort to challenging the person's experience you take quite a lot from the overall signal to noise ratio of this topic.
Winning an argument with another competitive player does not make your point more correct, and it certainly does not improve your chances of being heard.
<!--QuoteBegin-puzl+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (puzl)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Winning an argument with another competitive player does not make your point more correct, and it certainly does not improve your chances of being heard.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is going into a future sticky.
Ontopic:
Marine buffs to armor (check I&S for my super awsome post of power). Remove Alien r4k. Lower marine r4k. Balance to the force, this will bring.
Following the Blizzard model, at this point most people too dumb to realise the benefit of upgrades or willing to experiment with them sufficiently have been <i>trained</i> to appreciate them via patches. Public and clan alike.
[Self-Censored]Unnecessary mockery of retards removed[/Self-Censored]
Perhaps now that a sufficient userbase exists that has been tutored of the benefits, it might be possible to reintroduce a cost for upgrades that won't immediately disuade people from utilising them.
Edit: I see you trolling Zunni, answer my pm please
This is just one way of doing this:
1st chamber 10 res
2nd 15
3rd 20
Numbers are subject to change.
A delay in the incredible early boost skulks get with 3mts (or any chamber) could be very useful.
The game must achieve parallel Teching to get any consistent balance otherwise its like trying to balance a stack of Pool Balls.
This is just one way of doing this:
1st chamber 10 res
2nd 15
3rd 20
Numbers are subject to change.
A delay in the incredible early boost skulks get with 3mts (or any chamber) could be very useful.
The game must achieve parallel Teching to get any consistent balance otherwise its like trying to balance a stack of Pool Balls. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
A couple reasons. The timetable for getting chambers in a 6 person game is already really complicated. You have to balance capping adequate nodes, getting your chambers and having sufficient skulks for map control early game. Further, the power of chambers 1, 2, 3 is not equivelant to the power of w1, w2, w3. At 3 chambers, most upgrades provide a very small benefit, percentage-wise. At one chamber, most upgrades are just completely useless (maybe with the exception of cloaking).
Also, I don't understand why you think "parallel teching" is necessary for balance. The game already moves through 3 distinct phases which is matched on both marine and alien sides (first, res control, shotties, walking marines, skulks and possibly lerks, second, phase-gates, map control, 2nd hive dropped, fades, third, 2nd hive finshed, adv armory finished, hmgs and possibly onos). Do we need to make their strategies and tech identical? Plus your metaphor doesn't make any sense.
That aside, it's pretty clear that what is causing the imbalance is skulks preventing early game dominance by marines, so balance changes should probably try to focus on that area like yours have.
I came up with that idea before, with +2 res after the first free upgrade. Though a lot of ppl don't like the +1 res or this idea because I guess they like having free upgrades...
<a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=93176' target='_blank'>First upgrade is free.</a>
There used to be a +1 res per upgrade link, but I can't find it. I think it's locked.
This is just one way of doing this:
1st chamber 10 res
2nd 15
3rd 20
Numbers are subject to change.
A delay in the incredible early boost skulks get with 3mts (or any chamber) could be very useful.
The game must achieve parallel Teching to get any consistent balance otherwise its like trying to balance a stack of Pool Balls. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Major problem with this is that one gorge would need not 30 res, but 45 res... 3rd chambers wouldn't go up untill second hive goes up??
On top of this... 1 chamber suck, and 2 chamber abilities are mediocre.
reinstate upgrade gestation time to ...5...10 seconds? cant remember what it used to be.
Also, I don't understand why you think "parallel teching" is necessary for balance. The game already moves through 3 distinct phases which is matched on both marine and alien sides (first, res control, shotties, walking marines, skulks and possibly lerks, second, phase-gates, map control, 2nd hive dropped, fades, third, 2nd hive finshed, adv armory finished, hmgs and possibly onos). Do we need to make their strategies and tech identical? Plus your metaphor doesn't make any sense.
That aside, it's pretty clear that what is causing the imbalance is skulks preventing early game dominance by marines, so balance changes should probably try to focus on that area like yours have. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Good points, as the timetable is very complicated but it is quite evident that the chambers are coming too early otherwise this discussion wouldnt be occuring.
To elaborate on "Parallel Teching":
The Tech doesn't need to be identical on both sides but the tech and the counters to tech should reach the feild together. (Much like how SGs are usually in the field when the fade comes about.)
The metaphor was refering to the fact that people are relying on the marines dominence early game and then the alien dominence after Hive 2. If the cycle continues this swing of marine to alien balance issues from version to version will not stop or be very hard to. (ie balancing pool balls) Do not say the game is balanced because the marine's ownage of the first 5 minutes will be counterd by the aliens ownage of the last 5 minutes.
To truely have balance, every minute in the game should be looked at and balance should occur at every point.
reinstate upgrade gestation time to ...5...10 seconds? cant remember what it used to be. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No thanks. The upgrade gestation time should stay as is (short and sweet), even if it will cost res to upgrade in the future.
But a gorge pays for that res and it dosn't have a negative effect on the other aliens, but a positive one. The marines only have 1 res pool and thats the com, and him spending res effects everyone. So why shouldn't the aliens having to spend 1 or 2 res not for a upgrade have to affect everyone? If thats the case then the gun and armor upgrades should be free and you only have to pay for the armslab.
Balance for marine buffs could have any number of impacts on other parts of the game and could take forever to achieve, simply tweaking a few values on tech time and res won't make the game balanced. We know that in b5 marines were considered a superior class, we know that in 3.0f it's aliens. A middle ground between the two would appear to be the most balanced. It's hardly a step back if the end result is a better game. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Tweaking a few values won't make the game balanced? Wait, thats different from changing upgrade cost how? Or are you admitting that res for ugprades won't balance it either? And 'any number of impacts' - yeah, thats why we've played the game, to be able to predict the impact a change to the techtree like that will have. Theres no rule anywhere that research times and tech branching need to stay 100% static throughout all balance changes. So much of the game is determined by marine tech structure, its actually the most logical place to look when trying to improve gameflow and make win/loss slopes more sensible.
The problem with upgrade cost is nonlinearity of its impact - that means how much 1 res per upgrade hurts is heavily dependent on how screwed you already are. Assuming you're not that screwed yet, have at least one or two RTs - its a mild nerf to your RfK income, but you'll live just fine. If on the other hand you're lucky to not have lost your chambers yet and your team took a few significant blows, that one ressource cost per upgrade is going to make the hole you're in impossible to recover from with any realistic quality of play. The only way to get out of the <25 res/0 rts hole as aliens is after all RfK - RfK earned by kills, which at one hive almost require upgrades against anything but 0/0. Add that to all the other problems 1 Hive aliens still have, and we're just kicking the dog when he's down again, and only tangentially touching the midgame at all. It really is a significant step back towards the B5 problem of premature alien slippery slope.
A 0/1/1 plan would kind of work around this - but as already mentioned, it won't change much in the problems marine teams face. Its a nice little bandaid and thats about it.
But a gorge pays for that res and it dosn't have a negative effect on the other aliens, but a positive one. The marines only have 1 res pool and thats the com, and him spending res effects everyone. So why shouldn't the aliens having to spend 1 or 2 res not for a upgrade have to affect everyone? If thats the case then the gun and armor upgrades should be free and you only have to pay for the armslab. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
The commander can also turn around and drop a RT very shortly afterwards, all the marine res is pooled so he can <i>quickly</i> assign resources where they are needed. It takes a while for a gorge to get more res, the commander gets it all. The 30 res spent by a gorge to drop chambers is a significant number compared to the 50 res spent for a structure and an upgrade that will never go away. Aliens would spend far more in the course of a game if they all got upgrades like skulks do now and they cost even 1 res. Pull up a random current competitive demo and see how many times skulks die, then gestate ups when they spawn. You cannot directly compare 1 alien resource point to 1 marine point, it is comparing apples and oranges.
I advice that all direct suggestions you consider meaningful go into I&S (no, this is NOT a joke for those who will PM me with objections).