<!--QuoteBegin-Precious+May 16 2005, 10:46 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Precious @ May 16 2005, 10:46 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SaltzBad+May 16 2005, 07:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SaltzBad @ May 16 2005, 07:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> All Delta clans you mentioned have weak marine rounds naturally - and with obscures, its pretty much hit and Isamil... err miss.
Oh burn. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> See I view the reason alot of clans have weak marine teams is because of the unbalance. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> the only real quantifier of strong or weak team is b5 or prior. if a team's marine round has significantly improved skillwise since then it will be difficult to tell due to the fact that aliens are currently so powerful
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
As people adjust to the various issues with each build, their game will improve or fall apart. My beta5 comm skills were absolutely terrible, I couldn't get a win for the life of me, especially near the end of the version before b6 was available. In B4/B4a, I had the game down pretty well and didn't lose too many games. Even the smallest changes can throw a team's game off, and that really should factor into competitive balance. If a change hurts so many team's game on one side, it obviously did something to the balance. If so many teams can't get marine wins now, that probably has something to do with it.
<!--QuoteBegin-DrFurious+May 9 2005, 03:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (DrFurious @ May 9 2005, 03:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 2nd hive aliens are close to unbeatable now, with the main problem being the skulk. A leaping skulk with upgrades can now deliver the same offensive punch as a fade in most cases due to their speed and damage capabilities, and yet are completely expendable and renewable. Before you could kill a fade and get some respite, now the leaping skulks just keep coming. The bump that 2 hive skulks got, moving them from utility/node eating to a legitemate offensive unit, has closed off the majority of marine options to the point where you need heavy armor to have a chance, and even then it's touch and go.
Right now as a commander my plan of attack has changed dramatically from b5, such that it's absolutely necessary to kill or block the second hive, before it goes up if the alien team is very good. On top of that marines still have to control res nodes, so it's a daunting task. I've played with trying to end the game before the second hive, but it's very risky and a good lerk can counter any hive rushes completely. Right now the only options for marines are attack early, block the second hive, or tech to heavy armor to try to outlast them, and none of these options are particularly easy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is a very good point DrFurious, it makes me wonder, that at 2 hives the upgrade cost for aliens should raise to 1 point, and at 3 hives the upgrade cost should be raised to 2 points.
Sorta like a downside for the armor increases and gains in abilities that the aliens get at these levels.
I'd like to point out a few numbers for the theory on removing hive armor boosts:
1-Hive Skulk--90 hp 2-Hive Skulk--95 hp
1-Hive Skulk (cara)--130 hp 2-Hive Skulk (cara)--145 hp
1-Hive Onos--1900 hp 1-Hive Onos (cara)--2600 hp
2-Hive Onos--2200 hp 3-Hive Onos (cara)--3550 hp
One of the recurring complaints has been that 2-hive skulks are too deadly. The armor boost on a skulk at 2 hives adds ZERO bullets to its lifespan. Even with carapace (which is apparently pretty rare in competitive these days), the armor boost adds only 1-2 bullets.
On the other hand, it has also been pointed out that Onos are still too weak, and they rely heavily on the extra-hive armor boost. They pick up 300 hp per hive from it, 475 with carapace. They will suffer substantially with the loss of the hive-armor bonus.
It seems to me that "competetive players" forget why skulks in 3.0 are so much better than in the betas.
That is, the fact that they are basically combat skulks with perma upgrades. If marines only had to worry about basic skulks, you'd hear complaints again about how much skulks suck.
Removing the armor boosts = move in wrong direction
Putting a cost back on upgrades = step in the right direction
<!--QuoteBegin-Cxwf+May 17 2005, 11:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ May 17 2005, 11:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd like to point out a few numbers for the theory on removing hive armor boosts:
1-Hive Skulk--90 hp 2-Hive Skulk--95 hp
1-Hive Skulk (cara)--130 hp 2-Hive Skulk (cara)--145 hp
1-Hive Onos--1900 hp 1-Hive Onos (cara)--2600 hp
2-Hive Onos--2200 hp 3-Hive Onos (cara)--3550 hp
One of the recurring complaints has been that 2-hive skulks are too deadly. The armor boost on a skulk at 2 hives adds ZERO bullets to its lifespan. Even with carapace (which is apparently pretty rare in competitive these days), the armor boost adds only 1-2 bullets.
On the other hand, it has also been pointed out that Onos are still too weak, and they rely heavily on the extra-hive armor boost. They pick up 300 hp per hive from it, 475 with carapace. They will suffer substantially with the loss of the hive-armor bonus. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Let's try some more numbers:
As stated,
1-hive skulk--90 hp 2-hive skulk--95 hp
W1 shotgun, center five pellets hit--90 hp W2 shotgun, center five pellets hit--100 hp
the 2-hive armor boost makes it far more difficult for shotguns to one-shot skulks. Most one-shots on skulks are done with the center five pellets. hive-2 vs W1 basically doubles the number of SG hits to kill a skulk.
In addition, the second hive reduces the amount of time it takes regen to provide the skulk with an extra shot's worth of life from 20s/18s (W0/W1) to 10s/8s (W0/W1). I don't have any sort of statistics on how often a skulk lives 8s but not 18s, but I do end up killing marines with 1hp left a couple of times each scrim. I would say that it is not uncommon for a skulk to maybe take a bullet while approaching or trying to parasite, back off, and attack the marine slightly later. Thus, the claim that the second hive adds 0 bullets is not true.
Let's look at the backbone of the alien team, though:
1-hive fade--600hp 2-hive fade--675hp
This is a 12.5% increase in HP. This more than cancels out a level of weapon upgrades (especially considering W1 only gives an extra 5.8% damage to shotguns).
And, for fun, since you're discussing carapace
1-hive cara fade--800hp 2-hive cara fade--925hp
This is a 15.6% increase in HP. By contrast, W2 gives a 17.6% increase in shotgun damage. This means that the 2-hive armor boost <i>by itself</i> nearly entirely cancels out two levels of weapons upgrades for shotguns vs cara fades.
Marines already have a rather difficult time dealing with aliens that have suddenly each gained a tremendously new weapon and upgrade. Do they really need to have a level of weapons upgrades canceled? This strongly encourages marines to have solid weapons upgrades before the second hive finishes in order to stay in the game, constraining their tech options.
Besides that, the system is ridiculously unintuitive at the moment. A fade can take an amount of damage equal to health + (1.5 + .5 * # hives) * armor? Why not just give the aliens the extra armor and keep the amount each point is worth the same? Sure, it'd take longer to regen, but aliens regen too quickly already. Having the amount each point of armor is worth invisibly change with the number of hives is just another silly thing that causes newbies difficulty.
I'm not going to add to the fire, just giving my opinion on the issue. I personally believe the stronger the aliens and marines get the more dynamic the game becomes. If one team slips up once that will cost them dearly. This also allows for shorter and more fastpaced games where if the aliens or marines get a upper hand by a long shot, the game will end quickly rather than dragging it out.
I personally believe that if you gave marines a way to deal with a sporing lerk, leaping skulks and fades with focus you might have something. Personally, a cool idea might be that if you get armor2 your armor does not go down when you get spored. It will make spore useless with the added benefit of making marines go the armor route if they need to deal with the fades. Right now, there is really no point in teching down the armor tree but if we added a extremely large benefit of getting armor 2 and armor 3 I can honestly say that it will make things more interesting. Marine teams will be faced with choosing a more defensive game or a more aggressive game which will make it much much more interesting.
@Zephor: Nerfing and boosting are artificial discriminations in the method of change - since the main impact of change isn't the unit or statistic that is being altered, but how it by proxy remodels the whole game. A boost that for example makes A2 marines immune to spores would make the gameplay pace more pedestrian if anything - after 3:00ish marines could have an AA and A2 then, hence being immune to spores while having everything necessary to take a hive down even in the current version.
You'd have a point if you suggested another offensive weapon to keep lerks on their toes, or splitting the current AA into two upgrades - one for the GL, and one like now for the protoreq and HMG. Preferrably split them into a 120-150 second upgrade for what is currently the AA minus GLs, and 45-75 seconds for just the GL. That would allow for more variety in a number of ways - making both the late proto and earlyproto trees alot more viable.
If you ask me, the best way to balance current NS is really to modularize marine tech a bit further. I see no reason we need to be stuck on the 60 seconds for level 1 upgrades and an extra 30 seconds for every level, the catpack on the armslab and all that stuff. Fiddling with these things both makes future builds exciting to adapt to, and is the easiest way to rebalance things.
Also the idea of changing the armor bonus to a numerical value sounds cool, but how would this work for the onos? The most workable option would be to just shift some of the fades armor to hp - like a 400/100 setup.
Remember the good old days when skulks had 109 hp at Hive 1? And 155 with carapace? No one complained they were overpowered then, vs marines with 143 starting hp instead of today's 160.
The free upgrades make all the difference in the world.
<!--QuoteBegin-Dirm+May 17 2005, 02:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dirm @ May 17 2005, 02:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cxwf+May 17 2005, 11:24 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ May 17 2005, 11:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'd like to point out a few numbers for the theory on removing hive armor boosts:
1-Hive Skulk--90 hp 2-Hive Skulk--95 hp
1-Hive Skulk (cara)--130 hp 2-Hive Skulk (cara)--145 hp
1-Hive Onos--1900 hp 1-Hive Onos (cara)--2600 hp
2-Hive Onos--2200 hp 3-Hive Onos (cara)--3550 hp
One of the recurring complaints has been that 2-hive skulks are too deadly. The armor boost on a skulk at 2 hives adds ZERO bullets to its lifespan. Even with carapace (which is apparently pretty rare in competitive these days), the armor boost adds only 1-2 bullets.
On the other hand, it has also been pointed out that Onos are still too weak, and they rely heavily on the extra-hive armor boost. They pick up 300 hp per hive from it, 475 with carapace. They will suffer substantially with the loss of the hive-armor bonus. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Let's try some more numbers:
As stated,
1-hive skulk--90 hp 2-hive skulk--95 hp
W1 shotgun, center five pellets hit--90 hp W2 shotgun, center five pellets hit--100 hp
the 2-hive armor boost makes it far more difficult for shotguns to one-shot skulks. Most one-shots on skulks are done with the center five pellets. hive-2 vs W1 basically doubles the number of SG hits to kill a skulk.
In addition, the second hive reduces the amount of time it takes regen to provide the skulk with an extra shot's worth of life from 20s/18s (W0/W1) to 10s/8s (W0/W1). I don't have any sort of statistics on how often a skulk lives 8s but not 18s, but I do end up killing marines with 1hp left a couple of times each scrim. I would say that it is not uncommon for a skulk to maybe take a bullet while approaching or trying to parasite, back off, and attack the marine slightly later. Thus, the claim that the second hive adds 0 bullets is not true.
Let's look at the backbone of the alien team, though:
1-hive fade--600hp 2-hive fade--675hp
This is a 12.5% increase in HP. This more than cancels out a level of weapon upgrades (especially considering W1 only gives an extra 5.8% damage to shotguns).
And, for fun, since you're discussing carapace
1-hive cara fade--800hp 2-hive cara fade--925hp
This is a 15.6% increase in HP. By contrast, W2 gives a 17.6% increase in shotgun damage. This means that the 2-hive armor boost <i>by itself</i> nearly entirely cancels out two levels of weapons upgrades for shotguns vs cara fades.
Marines already have a rather difficult time dealing with aliens that have suddenly each gained a tremendously new weapon and upgrade. Do they really need to have a level of weapons upgrades canceled? This strongly encourages marines to have solid weapons upgrades before the second hive finishes in order to stay in the game, constraining their tech options.
Besides that, the system is ridiculously unintuitive at the moment. A fade can take an amount of damage equal to health + (1.5 + .5 * # hives) * armor? Why not just give the aliens the extra armor and keep the amount each point is worth the same? Sure, it'd take longer to regen, but aliens regen too quickly already. Having the amount each point of armor is worth invisibly change with the number of hives is just another silly thing that causes newbies difficulty. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Dirm, in ANY version of NS you did not have W2 by the time hive 2 was up, then the marines were losing, hardcore.
And since W2 gives you 5 points of extra leeway to kill the skulk over W1, what's the problem...? Since your argument is that only the 5 bullets in the center of the spread will hit, supposedly by nullifying the armor boost of hive 2 it will be easier to kill the skulk?
How so? By allowing 4 bullets to kill the skulk? The skulk will still have 90 hp; and the shotgun at W2 deals 100 with the center 5; only hit with 4 and you deal 80, which isn't enough to kill the leaping focus skulk flying into your face, so it remains that if anything the armor boost is a good change as it allows hive 2 aliens to mop up marine teams without weapons 2 quicker, and bring the conclusion of the game down faster.
What is bad about that?
Also as an added benifit you get carapace as a highly useful upgrade because of the armor bonuses.
Really now, can't anyone see that all of these "imbalances" have been centered around one main change, that is, the free upgrades?
Before free upgrades: DMS After free upgrades: MSD or SMD
Hello.... is there anybody out there?
That is because the upgrade costs never affected anyone but skulks; higher lifeforms generally lasted so long the upgrade costs were negligible. But skulks are generally sucide units so to buy upgrades was a bad idea.
And what chamber gives the best upgrades to higher lifeforms at hive 1? You guessed it! It's the D chamber, since the only spot to heal in the map is in your single starting locale. At two hives, you've got 2/3's of the map, and fades have metab, so regen loses it's usefulness, but at hive 1 regen is where it's at for fades, onos, and good enough for lerks.
For skulks, the d chamber sucks in comparision to the sensory or movement upgrades. But no one would ever get those upgrades because it was too much of an investment to get every single life as a skulk. So the idea was to wait for fades.
2 res was too much, 0 res is too little.
Something needs to be done, and there can't be free upgrades for 2 hive aliens, it just makes the skulk too damn devestating.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Remember the good old days when skulks had 109 hp at Hive 1? And 155 with carapace? No one complained they were overpowered then, vs marines with 143 starting hp instead of today's 160.
The free upgrades make all the difference in the world.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, but keep in mind those marines had medspam that worked and armor that lasted. It was a WAAAAY better armor system than now, IMO.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cxwf+May 17 2005, 09:57 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ May 17 2005, 09:57 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Remember the good old days when skulks had 109 hp at Hive 1? And 155 with carapace? No one complained they were overpowered then, vs marines with 143 starting hp instead of today's 160.
The free upgrades make all the difference in the world. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> But I think the old skulk hitboxes balanced it out <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Dirm, in ANY version of NS you did not have W2 by the time hive 2 was up, then the marines were losing, hardcore.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I wasn't trying to claim otherwise. I was just disputing Cxwf's claim:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The armor boost on a skulk at 2 hives add ZERO bullets to its lifespan.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The armor boost leads marines to get W2 in order to maintain shotguns' efficacy.
I think it might be more fun if W2 weren't as necessary so that marines were not so strongly pushed along a particular tech path.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Really now, can't anyone see that all of these "imbalances" have been centered around one main change, that is, the free upgrades?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everyone can see this. No one (I think?) disputes this. The issue is that many of us think that the game would be more fun if balanced around upgraded skulks, so we must look to other areas in order to compensate.
But back on topic...I've heard two different ideas that could do something about that. Not that I want to devolve this into I&S.
But 2 res per upgrade meant skulks never upgraded, as NGE pointed out. 0 res per upgrade leads to much more lethal skulks early game, and flat out devastating ones at Hive 2. So what are the alternatives?
--Upgrades at 1 res, or --First upgrade free, additional upgrades 2 res each
At 1 res, the cost is still negligible for Lerks and up, and not really that much for Gorges either--but skulks have to think about it now. Its not such a prohibitive cost as in 2.01, but its something. Or, at 0/2/2, everyone can get themselves their first upgrade, but you usually wouldn't see skulks bothering with a second upgrade the moment Hive 2 went up--unless they really needed it for something specific.
The only problem with these ideas is that they interact badly with the new system of losing upgrades when you evolve--actually, I'm liking the 0/2/2 cost more and more. That would prevent you from losing any money on evolving so long as you had only 1 upgrade prior. And this way it doesn't hurt the aliens early game at all, but it puts a small restriction on them when the 2nd Hive comes up, where marines are really hurting right now.
I have to say it sounds promising on the first view, but on the second, it only restricts bad skulks (eg new players, mostly) while better skulks can usually kill enough enemys to make the cost worthwhile.
In my point of view an upgrade should cost an investment, but for every lifeform, not only for skulks. And since higher lifeforms benefit from the upgrades much more, it should cost them aswell more. something along the lines of this: Skulk and gorge 2 res per chamber upgrade 4 for the lerk 8 for the fade and 10 for onos
that way a fully upgraded killer fade would cost 74 res and an onos 100 res wich is actually much more like their strengh and the investment the marines have to invest to stop them (skulk gorge and lerkres for medpacks) (fade and onos for weapons and stuff
1 res for 1st upgrade 2 res for second 3 res for third? possibly with an increasingly long gestate time for each upgrade taken, say 2 seconds for 1st, 4 for second, 6 for third
1 hive skulks having to pay 1 res for an upgrade would mean not all skulks would take upgrades all of the time, but a larger proportion would than in b5 (where it was like 5-10% of the time, if that) 1 res for the first upgrade would also help to counter all the extra rfk 3.0f skulks get now from more kills.
2 hive skulks would now have to shell out 3 res for 2 upgrades (lets say silence/celerity + focus) which isnt a small amount mid-game in a close round, at this point mostly all skulks would get at least one upgrade, depending on what they are doing but fewer would want to take two. Added to this in important situations with a longer gestate time for a second upgrade skulks would be less likely to take two, which would help the marines to succeed on, say, a seige effort or pg rush etc.
the problem i have with free upgrades (one of the many, actually) is that no matter how badly an alien team is doing, whether they lost their early rts and the hive is building, or they have two hives up but the marines have taken down their non hive rts and are attempting to out-tech the aliens to HA, skulks are never effected, they can happily carry on taking 1 or 2 upgrades (depending on game time) whenever they spawn, even if the marines have played their game well.
with this change i can see us retaining the added tactical variety and "usefulness" of skulks, while minimising the effect it has on game balance.
<!--QuoteBegin-Anderval+May 17 2005, 07:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anderval @ May 17 2005, 07:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1 res for 1st upgrade 2 res for second 3 res for third? possibly with an increasingly long gestate time for each upgrade taken, say 2 seconds for 1st, 4 for second, 6 for third
1 hive skulks having to pay 1 res for an upgrade would mean not all skulks would take upgrades all of the time, but a larger proportion would than in b5 (where it was like 5-10% of the time, if that) 1 res for the first upgrade would also help to counter all the extra rfk 3.0f skulks get now from more kills.
2 hive skulks would now have to shell out 3 res for 2 upgrades (lets say silence/celerity + focus) which isnt a small amount mid-game in a close round, at this point mostly all skulks would get at least one upgrade, depending on what they are doing but fewer would want to take two. Added to this in important situations with a longer gestate time for a second upgrade skulks would be less likely to take two, which would help the marines to succeed on, say, a seige effort or pg rush etc.
the problem i have with free upgrades (one of the many, actually) is that no matter how badly an alien team is doing, whether they lost their early rts and the hive is building, or they have two hives up but the marines have taken down their non hive rts and are attempting to out-tech the aliens to HA, skulks are never effected, they can happily carry on taking 1 or 2 upgrades (depending on game time) whenever they spawn, even if the marines have played their game well.
with this change i can see us retaining the added tactical variety and "usefulness" of skulks, while minimising the effect it has on game balance. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Not a bad idea in practice, but I know myself and many others would cringe at the idea of longer guestation times.
<!--QuoteBegin-NGE+May 18 2005, 02:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ May 18 2005, 02:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Anderval+May 17 2005, 07:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anderval @ May 17 2005, 07:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1 res for 1st upgrade 2 res for second 3 res for third? possibly with an increasingly long gestate time for each upgrade taken, say 2 seconds for 1st, 4 for second, 6 for third
1 hive skulks having to pay 1 res for an upgrade would mean not all skulks would take upgrades all of the time, but a larger proportion would than in b5 (where it was like 5-10% of the time, if that) 1 res for the first upgrade would also help to counter all the extra rfk 3.0f skulks get now from more kills.
2 hive skulks would now have to shell out 3 res for 2 upgrades (lets say silence/celerity + focus) which isnt a small amount mid-game in a close round, at this point mostly all skulks would get at least one upgrade, depending on what they are doing but fewer would want to take two. Added to this in important situations with a longer gestate time for a second upgrade skulks would be less likely to take two, which would help the marines to succeed on, say, a seige effort or pg rush etc.
the problem i have with free upgrades (one of the many, actually) is that no matter how badly an alien team is doing, whether they lost their early rts and the hive is building, or they have two hives up but the marines have taken down their non hive rts and are attempting to out-tech the aliens to HA, skulks are never effected, they can happily carry on taking 1 or 2 upgrades (depending on game time) whenever they spawn, even if the marines have played their game well.
with this change i can see us retaining the added tactical variety and "usefulness" of skulks, while minimising the effect it has on game balance. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not a bad idea in practice, but I know myself and many others would cringe at the idea of longer guestation times. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> well the gestation times was really a secondary part of the change, and wouldnt effect anything until hive two, and then only effect skulks in a rush who were actually going to get 2 upgrades
<!--QuoteBegin-Anderval+May 17 2005, 09:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anderval @ May 17 2005, 09:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-NGE+May 18 2005, 02:53 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (NGE @ May 18 2005, 02:53 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Anderval+May 17 2005, 07:27 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Anderval @ May 17 2005, 07:27 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> 1 res for 1st upgrade 2 res for second 3 res for third? possibly with an increasingly long gestate time for each upgrade taken, say 2 seconds for 1st, 4 for second, 6 for third
1 hive skulks having to pay 1 res for an upgrade would mean not all skulks would take upgrades all of the time, but a larger proportion would than in b5 (where it was like 5-10% of the time, if that) 1 res for the first upgrade would also help to counter all the extra rfk 3.0f skulks get now from more kills.
2 hive skulks would now have to shell out 3 res for 2 upgrades (lets say silence/celerity + focus) which isnt a small amount mid-game in a close round, at this point mostly all skulks would get at least one upgrade, depending on what they are doing but fewer would want to take two. Added to this in important situations with a longer gestate time for a second upgrade skulks would be less likely to take two, which would help the marines to succeed on, say, a seige effort or pg rush etc.
the problem i have with free upgrades (one of the many, actually) is that no matter how badly an alien team is doing, whether they lost their early rts and the hive is building, or they have two hives up but the marines have taken down their non hive rts and are attempting to out-tech the aliens to HA, skulks are never effected, they can happily carry on taking 1 or 2 upgrades (depending on game time) whenever they spawn, even if the marines have played their game well.
with this change i can see us retaining the added tactical variety and "usefulness" of skulks, while minimising the effect it has on game balance. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Not a bad idea in practice, but I know myself and many others would cringe at the idea of longer guestation times. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> well the gestation times was really a secondary part of the change, and wouldnt effect anything until hive two, and then only effect skulks in a rush who were actually going to get 2 upgrades <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Longer gestation times just limits an alien strategy of a skulk who wants to spend a little of his hard earned res. It should be res but not a time penalty, time penalties are the worst.
So now we're arguing over three price schemes-- 1/1/1 1/2/3 0/2/2
Or keep the current price scheme: 0/0/0
Any of them could work, but I think 1/2/3 punishes the aliens more than it needs to. At 0/2/2, it would only start to affect the aliens when the second Hive came up, which is where most people complain about balance--1 Hive Aliens already have to fight pretty hard to hold their ground. But I have to wonder how much trouble it would be to encode an increasing price for upgrades based on how many you already have? Just from a coding standpoint, 1/1/1 might be a lot easier than either 1/2/3 or 0/2/2.
<!--QuoteBegin-Cxwf+May 18 2005, 06:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ May 18 2005, 06:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So now we're arguing over three price schemes-- 1/1/1 1/2/3 0/2/2
Or keep the current price scheme: 0/0/0
Any of them could work, but I think 1/2/3 punishes the aliens more than it needs to. At 0/2/2, it would only start to affect the aliens when the second Hive came up, which is where most people complain about balance--1 Hive Aliens already have to fight pretty hard to hold their ground. But I have to wonder how much trouble it would be to encode an increasing price for upgrades based on how many you already have? Just from a coding standpoint, 1/1/1 might be a lot easier than either 1/2/3 or 0/2/2. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> thanks that you briefly ignored me. But if you do so, can you please state why you didn´t like that suggestion?
puzlThe Old FirmJoin Date: 2003-02-26Member: 14029Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, Constellation
edited May 2005
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> But I have to wonder how much trouble it would be to encode an increasing price for upgrades based on how many you already have? Just from a coding standpoint, 1/1/1 might be a lot easier than either 1/2/3 or 0/2/2. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much every option for upgrade cost and time that has been suggested here would be trivial to impliment. The difference between 1/1/1 and 0/2/2 ( in terms of gameplay and balance ) are so large that the implimentation effort should not factor into the decision.
I think that 1/2/3 might be a good option, since it would balance out the rfk skulks get early and mid-game, while still making upgrades worthwile to get as a skulk. (celerity focus leap skulk are worth 4 res).
However, I don't think that the gestationtimes should be changed, they are fine as they are.
I think 3.0 has really shown people the power of upgraded skulks. Before hand I don't think people really understood how big an impact they could have and upgrades were used sparingly. I think avl's idea is a step in the right direction for balance. Readding the cost won't return us to non-upgarded skulks and dc/mc/sc, it'll just force players to actually think about when to get their upgrades rather than the mindless power skulks present all game long.
I'd rather see a system where gestation times were increased instead of costs. This would stop/slow/diminish the usefulness of a the focus + celerity skulk barrage in case of a hive 2 assault or siege, while not really adding an incentive against two upgrade skulks in a larger perspective.
<!--QuoteBegin-Grendel+May 18 2005, 06:47 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Grendel @ May 18 2005, 06:47 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Both sides are governed by extremely strong positive feedback loops.
It's a given that tech development will generally be unilaterel. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> ^^lol words
anyways...can we stop trying to nerf the aliens plz and just make marines less crappy. kthx bye
Comments
Oh burn. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
See I view the reason alot of clans have weak marine teams is because of the unbalance. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
the only real quantifier of strong or weak team is b5 or prior. if a team's marine round has significantly improved skillwise since then it will be difficult to tell due to the fact that aliens are currently so powerful
Right now as a commander my plan of attack has changed dramatically from b5, such that it's absolutely necessary to kill or block the second hive, before it goes up if the alien team is very good. On top of that marines still have to control res nodes, so it's a daunting task. I've played with trying to end the game before the second hive, but it's very risky and a good lerk can counter any hive rushes completely. Right now the only options for marines are attack early, block the second hive, or tech to heavy armor to try to outlast them, and none of these options are particularly easy. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
This is a very good point DrFurious, it makes me wonder, that at 2 hives the upgrade cost for aliens should raise to 1 point, and at 3 hives the upgrade cost should be raised to 2 points.
Sorta like a downside for the armor increases and gains in abilities that the aliens get at these levels.
Agreed.
1-Hive Skulk--90 hp
2-Hive Skulk--95 hp
1-Hive Skulk (cara)--130 hp
2-Hive Skulk (cara)--145 hp
1-Hive Onos--1900 hp
1-Hive Onos (cara)--2600 hp
2-Hive Onos--2200 hp
3-Hive Onos (cara)--3550 hp
One of the recurring complaints has been that 2-hive skulks are too deadly. The armor boost on a skulk at 2 hives adds ZERO bullets to its lifespan. Even with carapace (which is apparently pretty rare in competitive these days), the armor boost adds only 1-2 bullets.
On the other hand, it has also been pointed out that Onos are still too weak, and they rely heavily on the extra-hive armor boost. They pick up 300 hp per hive from it, 475 with carapace. They will suffer substantially with the loss of the hive-armor bonus.
It seems to me that "competetive players" forget why skulks in 3.0 are so much better than in the betas.
That is, the fact that they are basically combat skulks with perma upgrades. If marines only had to worry about basic skulks, you'd hear complaints again about how much skulks suck.
Removing the armor boosts = move in wrong direction
Putting a cost back on upgrades = step in the right direction
1-Hive Skulk--90 hp
2-Hive Skulk--95 hp
1-Hive Skulk (cara)--130 hp
2-Hive Skulk (cara)--145 hp
1-Hive Onos--1900 hp
1-Hive Onos (cara)--2600 hp
2-Hive Onos--2200 hp
3-Hive Onos (cara)--3550 hp
One of the recurring complaints has been that 2-hive skulks are too deadly. The armor boost on a skulk at 2 hives adds ZERO bullets to its lifespan. Even with carapace (which is apparently pretty rare in competitive these days), the armor boost adds only 1-2 bullets.
On the other hand, it has also been pointed out that Onos are still too weak, and they rely heavily on the extra-hive armor boost. They pick up 300 hp per hive from it, 475 with carapace. They will suffer substantially with the loss of the hive-armor bonus. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's try some more numbers:
As stated,
1-hive skulk--90 hp
2-hive skulk--95 hp
W1 shotgun, center five pellets hit--90 hp
W2 shotgun, center five pellets hit--100 hp
the 2-hive armor boost makes it far more difficult for shotguns to one-shot skulks. Most one-shots on skulks are done with the center five pellets. hive-2 vs W1 basically doubles the number of SG hits to kill a skulk.
In addition, the second hive reduces the amount of time it takes regen to provide the skulk with an extra shot's worth of life from 20s/18s (W0/W1) to 10s/8s (W0/W1). I don't have any sort of statistics on how often a skulk lives 8s but not 18s, but I do end up killing marines with 1hp left a couple of times each scrim. I would say that it is not uncommon for a skulk to maybe take a bullet while approaching or trying to parasite, back off, and attack the marine slightly later. Thus, the claim that the second hive adds 0 bullets is not true.
Let's look at the backbone of the alien team, though:
1-hive fade--600hp
2-hive fade--675hp
This is a 12.5% increase in HP. This more than cancels out a level of weapon upgrades (especially considering W1 only gives an extra 5.8% damage to shotguns).
And, for fun, since you're discussing carapace
1-hive cara fade--800hp
2-hive cara fade--925hp
This is a 15.6% increase in HP. By contrast, W2 gives a 17.6% increase in shotgun damage. This means that the 2-hive armor boost <i>by itself</i> nearly entirely cancels out two levels of weapons upgrades for shotguns vs cara fades.
Marines already have a rather difficult time dealing with aliens that have suddenly each gained a tremendously new weapon and upgrade. Do they really need to have a level of weapons upgrades canceled? This strongly encourages marines to have solid weapons upgrades before the second hive finishes in order to stay in the game, constraining their tech options.
Besides that, the system is ridiculously unintuitive at the moment. A fade can take an amount of damage equal to health + (1.5 + .5 * # hives) * armor? Why not just give the aliens the extra armor and keep the amount each point is worth the same? Sure, it'd take longer to regen, but aliens regen too quickly already. Having the amount each point of armor is worth invisibly change with the number of hives is just another silly thing that causes newbies difficulty.
I personally believe that if you gave marines a way to deal with a sporing lerk, leaping skulks and fades with focus you might have something. Personally, a cool idea might be that if you get armor2 your armor does not go down when you get spored. It will make spore useless with the added benefit of making marines go the armor route if they need to deal with the fades. Right now, there is really no point in teching down the armor tree but if we added a extremely large benefit of getting armor 2 and armor 3 I can honestly say that it will make things more interesting. Marine teams will be faced with choosing a more defensive game or a more aggressive game which will make it much much more interesting.
Nerfing and boosting are artificial discriminations in the method of change - since the main impact of change isn't the unit or statistic that is being altered, but how it by proxy remodels the whole game. A boost that for example makes A2 marines immune to spores would make the gameplay pace more pedestrian if anything - after 3:00ish marines could have an AA and A2 then, hence being immune to spores while having everything necessary to take a hive down even in the current version.
You'd have a point if you suggested another offensive weapon to keep lerks on their toes, or splitting the current AA into two upgrades - one for the GL, and one like now for the protoreq and HMG. Preferrably split them into a 120-150 second upgrade for what is currently the AA minus GLs, and 45-75 seconds for just the GL. That would allow for more variety in a number of ways - making both the late proto and earlyproto trees alot more viable.
If you ask me, the best way to balance current NS is really to modularize marine tech a bit further. I see no reason we need to be stuck on the 60 seconds for level 1 upgrades and an extra 30 seconds for every level, the catpack on the armslab and all that stuff. Fiddling with these things both makes future builds exciting to adapt to, and is the easiest way to rebalance things.
Also the idea of changing the armor bonus to a numerical value sounds cool, but how would this work for the onos? The most workable option would be to just shift some of the fades armor to hp - like a 400/100 setup.
The free upgrades make all the difference in the world.
1-Hive Skulk--90 hp
2-Hive Skulk--95 hp
1-Hive Skulk (cara)--130 hp
2-Hive Skulk (cara)--145 hp
1-Hive Onos--1900 hp
1-Hive Onos (cara)--2600 hp
2-Hive Onos--2200 hp
3-Hive Onos (cara)--3550 hp
One of the recurring complaints has been that 2-hive skulks are too deadly. The armor boost on a skulk at 2 hives adds ZERO bullets to its lifespan. Even with carapace (which is apparently pretty rare in competitive these days), the armor boost adds only 1-2 bullets.
On the other hand, it has also been pointed out that Onos are still too weak, and they rely heavily on the extra-hive armor boost. They pick up 300 hp per hive from it, 475 with carapace. They will suffer substantially with the loss of the hive-armor bonus. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Let's try some more numbers:
As stated,
1-hive skulk--90 hp
2-hive skulk--95 hp
W1 shotgun, center five pellets hit--90 hp
W2 shotgun, center five pellets hit--100 hp
the 2-hive armor boost makes it far more difficult for shotguns to one-shot skulks. Most one-shots on skulks are done with the center five pellets. hive-2 vs W1 basically doubles the number of SG hits to kill a skulk.
In addition, the second hive reduces the amount of time it takes regen to provide the skulk with an extra shot's worth of life from 20s/18s (W0/W1) to 10s/8s (W0/W1). I don't have any sort of statistics on how often a skulk lives 8s but not 18s, but I do end up killing marines with 1hp left a couple of times each scrim. I would say that it is not uncommon for a skulk to maybe take a bullet while approaching or trying to parasite, back off, and attack the marine slightly later. Thus, the claim that the second hive adds 0 bullets is not true.
Let's look at the backbone of the alien team, though:
1-hive fade--600hp
2-hive fade--675hp
This is a 12.5% increase in HP. This more than cancels out a level of weapon upgrades (especially considering W1 only gives an extra 5.8% damage to shotguns).
And, for fun, since you're discussing carapace
1-hive cara fade--800hp
2-hive cara fade--925hp
This is a 15.6% increase in HP. By contrast, W2 gives a 17.6% increase in shotgun damage. This means that the 2-hive armor boost <i>by itself</i> nearly entirely cancels out two levels of weapons upgrades for shotguns vs cara fades.
Marines already have a rather difficult time dealing with aliens that have suddenly each gained a tremendously new weapon and upgrade. Do they really need to have a level of weapons upgrades canceled? This strongly encourages marines to have solid weapons upgrades before the second hive finishes in order to stay in the game, constraining their tech options.
Besides that, the system is ridiculously unintuitive at the moment. A fade can take an amount of damage equal to health + (1.5 + .5 * # hives) * armor? Why not just give the aliens the extra armor and keep the amount each point is worth the same? Sure, it'd take longer to regen, but aliens regen too quickly already. Having the amount each point of armor is worth invisibly change with the number of hives is just another silly thing that causes newbies difficulty. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Dirm, in ANY version of NS you did not have W2 by the time hive 2 was up, then the marines were losing, hardcore.
And since W2 gives you 5 points of extra leeway to kill the skulk over W1, what's the problem...? Since your argument is that only the 5 bullets in the center of the spread will hit, supposedly by nullifying the armor boost of hive 2 it will be easier to kill the skulk?
How so? By allowing 4 bullets to kill the skulk? The skulk will still have 90 hp; and the shotgun at W2 deals 100 with the center 5; only hit with 4 and you deal 80, which isn't enough to kill the leaping focus skulk flying into your face, so it remains that if anything the armor boost is a good change as it allows hive 2 aliens to mop up marine teams without weapons 2 quicker, and bring the conclusion of the game down faster.
What is bad about that?
Also as an added benifit you get carapace as a highly useful upgrade because of the armor bonuses.
Really now, can't anyone see that all of these "imbalances" have been centered around one main change, that is, the free upgrades?
Before free upgrades: DMS
After free upgrades: MSD or SMD
Hello.... is there anybody out there?
That is because the upgrade costs never affected anyone but skulks; higher lifeforms generally lasted so long the upgrade costs were negligible. But skulks are generally sucide units so to buy upgrades was a bad idea.
And what chamber gives the best upgrades to higher lifeforms at hive 1? You guessed it! It's the D chamber, since the only spot to heal in the map is in your single starting locale. At two hives, you've got 2/3's of the map, and fades have metab, so regen loses it's usefulness, but at hive 1 regen is where it's at for fades, onos, and good enough for lerks.
For skulks, the d chamber sucks in comparision to the sensory or movement upgrades. But no one would ever get those upgrades because it was too much of an investment to get every single life as a skulk. So the idea was to wait for fades.
2 res was too much, 0 res is too little.
Something needs to be done, and there can't be free upgrades for 2 hive aliens, it just makes the skulk too damn devestating.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Remember the good old days when skulks had 109 hp at Hive 1? And 155 with carapace? No one complained they were overpowered then, vs marines with 143 starting hp instead of today's 160.
The free upgrades make all the difference in the world.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree, but keep in mind those marines had medspam that worked and armor that lasted. It was a WAAAAY better armor system than now, IMO.
The free upgrades make all the difference in the world. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
But I think the old skulk hitboxes balanced it out <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I wasn't trying to claim otherwise. I was just disputing Cxwf's claim:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The armor boost on a skulk at 2 hives add ZERO bullets to its lifespan.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The armor boost leads marines to get W2 in order to maintain shotguns' efficacy.
I think it might be more fun if W2 weren't as necessary so that marines were not so strongly pushed along a particular tech path.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Really now, can't anyone see that all of these "imbalances" have been centered around one main change, that is, the free upgrades?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Everyone can see this. No one (I think?) disputes this. The issue is that many of us think that the game would be more fun if balanced around upgraded skulks, so we must look to other areas in order to compensate.
But back on topic...I've heard two different ideas that could do something about that. Not that I want to devolve this into I&S.
But 2 res per upgrade meant skulks never upgraded, as NGE pointed out. 0 res per upgrade leads to much more lethal skulks early game, and flat out devastating ones at Hive 2. So what are the alternatives?
--Upgrades at 1 res, or
--First upgrade free, additional upgrades 2 res each
At 1 res, the cost is still negligible for Lerks and up, and not really that much for Gorges either--but skulks have to think about it now. Its not such a prohibitive cost as in 2.01, but its something. Or, at 0/2/2, everyone can get themselves their first upgrade, but you usually wouldn't see skulks bothering with a second upgrade the moment Hive 2 went up--unless they really needed it for something specific.
The only problem with these ideas is that they interact badly with the new system of losing upgrades when you evolve--actually, I'm liking the 0/2/2 cost more and more. That would prevent you from losing any money on evolving so long as you had only 1 upgrade prior. And this way it doesn't hurt the aliens early game at all, but it puts a small restriction on them when the 2nd Hive comes up, where marines are really hurting right now.
In my point of view an upgrade should cost an investment, but for every lifeform, not only for skulks. And since higher lifeforms benefit from the upgrades much more, it should cost them aswell more.
something along the lines of this:
Skulk and gorge 2 res per chamber upgrade
4 for the lerk
8 for the fade and
10 for onos
that way a fully upgraded killer fade would cost 74 res
and an onos 100 res
wich is actually much more like their strengh and the investment the marines have to invest to stop them
(skulk gorge and lerkres for medpacks)
(fade and onos for weapons and stuff
1 hive skulks having to pay 1 res for an upgrade would mean not all skulks would take upgrades all of the time, but a larger proportion would than in b5 (where it was like 5-10% of the time, if that) 1 res for the first upgrade would also help to counter all the extra rfk 3.0f skulks get now from more kills.
2 hive skulks would now have to shell out 3 res for 2 upgrades (lets say silence/celerity + focus) which isnt a small amount mid-game in a close round, at this point mostly all skulks would get at least one upgrade, depending on what they are doing but fewer would want to take two. Added to this in important situations with a longer gestate time for a second upgrade skulks would be less likely to take two, which would help the marines to succeed on, say, a seige effort or pg rush etc.
the problem i have with free upgrades (one of the many, actually) is that no matter how badly an alien team is doing, whether they lost their early rts and the hive is building, or they have two hives up but the marines have taken down their non hive rts and are attempting to out-tech the aliens to HA, skulks are never effected, they can happily carry on taking 1 or 2 upgrades (depending on game time) whenever they spawn, even if the marines have played their game well.
with this change i can see us retaining the added tactical variety and "usefulness" of skulks, while minimising the effect it has on game balance.
1 hive skulks having to pay 1 res for an upgrade would mean not all skulks would take upgrades all of the time, but a larger proportion would than in b5 (where it was like 5-10% of the time, if that) 1 res for the first upgrade would also help to counter all the extra rfk 3.0f skulks get now from more kills.
2 hive skulks would now have to shell out 3 res for 2 upgrades (lets say silence/celerity + focus) which isnt a small amount mid-game in a close round, at this point mostly all skulks would get at least one upgrade, depending on what they are doing but fewer would want to take two. Added to this in important situations with a longer gestate time for a second upgrade skulks would be less likely to take two, which would help the marines to succeed on, say, a seige effort or pg rush etc.
the problem i have with free upgrades (one of the many, actually) is that no matter how badly an alien team is doing, whether they lost their early rts and the hive is building, or they have two hives up but the marines have taken down their non hive rts and are attempting to out-tech the aliens to HA, skulks are never effected, they can happily carry on taking 1 or 2 upgrades (depending on game time) whenever they spawn, even if the marines have played their game well.
with this change i can see us retaining the added tactical variety and "usefulness" of skulks, while minimising the effect it has on game balance. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not a bad idea in practice, but I know myself and many others would cringe at the idea of longer guestation times.
1 hive skulks having to pay 1 res for an upgrade would mean not all skulks would take upgrades all of the time, but a larger proportion would than in b5 (where it was like 5-10% of the time, if that) 1 res for the first upgrade would also help to counter all the extra rfk 3.0f skulks get now from more kills.
2 hive skulks would now have to shell out 3 res for 2 upgrades (lets say silence/celerity + focus) which isnt a small amount mid-game in a close round, at this point mostly all skulks would get at least one upgrade, depending on what they are doing but fewer would want to take two. Added to this in important situations with a longer gestate time for a second upgrade skulks would be less likely to take two, which would help the marines to succeed on, say, a seige effort or pg rush etc.
the problem i have with free upgrades (one of the many, actually) is that no matter how badly an alien team is doing, whether they lost their early rts and the hive is building, or they have two hives up but the marines have taken down their non hive rts and are attempting to out-tech the aliens to HA, skulks are never effected, they can happily carry on taking 1 or 2 upgrades (depending on game time) whenever they spawn, even if the marines have played their game well.
with this change i can see us retaining the added tactical variety and "usefulness" of skulks, while minimising the effect it has on game balance. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not a bad idea in practice, but I know myself and many others would cringe at the idea of longer guestation times. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
well the gestation times was really a secondary part of the change, and wouldnt effect anything until hive two, and then only effect skulks in a rush who were actually going to get 2 upgrades
1 hive skulks having to pay 1 res for an upgrade would mean not all skulks would take upgrades all of the time, but a larger proportion would than in b5 (where it was like 5-10% of the time, if that) 1 res for the first upgrade would also help to counter all the extra rfk 3.0f skulks get now from more kills.
2 hive skulks would now have to shell out 3 res for 2 upgrades (lets say silence/celerity + focus) which isnt a small amount mid-game in a close round, at this point mostly all skulks would get at least one upgrade, depending on what they are doing but fewer would want to take two. Added to this in important situations with a longer gestate time for a second upgrade skulks would be less likely to take two, which would help the marines to succeed on, say, a seige effort or pg rush etc.
the problem i have with free upgrades (one of the many, actually) is that no matter how badly an alien team is doing, whether they lost their early rts and the hive is building, or they have two hives up but the marines have taken down their non hive rts and are attempting to out-tech the aliens to HA, skulks are never effected, they can happily carry on taking 1 or 2 upgrades (depending on game time) whenever they spawn, even if the marines have played their game well.
with this change i can see us retaining the added tactical variety and "usefulness" of skulks, while minimising the effect it has on game balance. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Not a bad idea in practice, but I know myself and many others would cringe at the idea of longer guestation times. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
well the gestation times was really a secondary part of the change, and wouldnt effect anything until hive two, and then only effect skulks in a rush who were actually going to get 2 upgrades <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Longer gestation times just limits an alien strategy of a skulk who wants to spend a little of his hard earned res. It should be res but not a time penalty, time penalties are the worst.
1/1/1
1/2/3
0/2/2
Or keep the current price scheme:
0/0/0
Any of them could work, but I think 1/2/3 punishes the aliens more than it needs to. At 0/2/2, it would only start to affect the aliens when the second Hive came up, which is where most people complain about balance--1 Hive Aliens already have to fight pretty hard to hold their ground. But I have to wonder how much trouble it would be to encode an increasing price for upgrades based on how many you already have? Just from a coding standpoint, 1/1/1 might be a lot easier than either 1/2/3 or 0/2/2.
1/1/1
1/2/3
0/2/2
Or keep the current price scheme:
0/0/0
Any of them could work, but I think 1/2/3 punishes the aliens more than it needs to. At 0/2/2, it would only start to affect the aliens when the second Hive came up, which is where most people complain about balance--1 Hive Aliens already have to fight pretty hard to hold their ground. But I have to wonder how much trouble it would be to encode an increasing price for upgrades based on how many you already have? Just from a coding standpoint, 1/1/1 might be a lot easier than either 1/2/3 or 0/2/2. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
thanks that you briefly ignored me.
But if you do so, can you please state why you didn´t like that suggestion?
But I have to wonder how much trouble it would be to encode an increasing price for upgrades based on how many you already have? Just from a coding standpoint, 1/1/1 might be a lot easier than either 1/2/3 or 0/2/2.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Pretty much every option for upgrade cost and time that has been suggested here would be trivial to impliment. The difference between 1/1/1 and 0/2/2 ( in terms of gameplay and balance ) are so large that the implimentation effort should not factor into the decision.
However, I don't think that the gestationtimes should be changed, they are fine as they are.
It's a given that tech development will generally be unilaterel.
Ease to end the game ftw.
It's a given that tech development will generally be unilaterel. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
^^lol words
anyways...can we stop trying to nerf the aliens plz and just make marines less crappy. kthx bye