<!--QuoteBegin-Pithlit+May 18 2005, 01:02 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Pithlit @ May 18 2005, 01:02 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Cxwf+May 18 2005, 06:09 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Cxwf @ May 18 2005, 06:09 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So now we're arguing over three price schemes-- 1/1/1 1/2/3 0/2/2
Or keep the current price scheme: 0/0/0
Any of them could work, but I think 1/2/3 punishes the aliens more than it needs to. At 0/2/2, it would only start to affect the aliens when the second Hive came up, which is where most people complain about balance--1 Hive Aliens already have to fight pretty hard to hold their ground. But I have to wonder how much trouble it would be to encode an increasing price for upgrades based on how many you already have? Just from a coding standpoint, 1/1/1 might be a lot easier than either 1/2/3 or 0/2/2. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> thanks that you briefly ignored me. But if you do so, can you please state why you didn´t like that suggestion? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I ignored you because you proposed costs of 2/4/8/10, which are HIGHER than they were in 2.01, and are almost guaranteed to be considered too high by almost everyone here. If the difference between 0 and 2 is enough to swing the balance from one team to another, whats the difference between 0 and 10 going to do?
the reason in my opinion for readding a 1res cost for the frist upgrade would be to minimise the impact extra early game rfk that skulks get has on the time of alien midgame, alternativly alien rfk could just be limited to 1-2 res per kill rather than 1-3 with a similar effect (except that marines after the first minute and before the 4th would continue to be booned).
personally i would prefer an upgrade cost over a longer gestation time, although they may have similar results in lowering the number of skulks taking as many upgrades as possible, longer upgrade times are more frustrating and would hurt gameplay more i think.
oh and, marines arnt weak, they wern't weak in b5, aliens just recieved several massive buffs which tipped the balance into their favour significantly, it doesnt make sense to mess about too much with a team that worked fine before the changes than to alter something where you know the effect it is going to have on balance
btw: 1/2/3 would probably be my favourite, or 0/2/2 with altered alien rfk, id much prefer to see these implemented than any number of random marine buffs.
Well, lets see what we can extrapolate about the results of these price systems:
0/0/0 1-Hive--All aliens have 1 upgrade, all the time 2-Hive--All aliens have 2 upgrades, all the time 3-Hive--All aliens have 3 upgrades, all the time Generation of high lifeforms is at fastest.
1/1/1 1-Hive--Higher lifeforms will have 1 upgrade. Skulks will usually have 1 upgrade, but not always, and will have a little slower res accumulation 2-Hive--Higher lifeforms will have 2 upgrades. Skulks will be seen with 0, 1, or 2 upgrades depending on strength of alien res. 3-Hive--Higher lifeforms will have 3 upgrades, Skulks 1-3. Generation of high lifeforms slowed down slightly, but not much
1/2/3 1-Hive--Higher lifeforms will have 1 upgrade. Skulks will usually have 1 upgrade, but not always, and will have a little slower res accumulation 2-Hive--Higher lifeforms will have 2 upgrades (gorges may stick with 1). Skulks will usually be seen with 1 upgrade, although they may buy 2 for specific tasks. 3-Hive--Higher lifeforms will have 3 upgrades. Skulks and Gorges probably 1-2. Generation of higher lifeforms slowed down a little more Upgraded skulks discouraged from gestating to another lifeform, because of loss of res on upgrades.
0/2/2 1-Hive--All lifeforms have 1 upgrade 2-Hive--Higher lifeforms have 2 upgrades, skulks will usually be seen with 1 3-Hive--Higher lifeforms have 3 upgrades, skulks probably 1-2. Generation of higher lifeforms slowed down slightly, but not until the 2-Hive level.
1/1/1 system is best - because it affects the all stages of the aliens' game, isn't too punitive, and also it is intuitive - any new player can see each upgrade costs 1 res. Very simple, versus:
"they still learn how to bhop. only removing the element of timing. It puts everyone in the same positition and removes the need for scripts if people want to use space bar etc. Please give reasons behind your logic in future."
Ever since more and more people started to bhop, the eeling of ns has droped for me. I can't help but see it as a joke to see aliens constantly jumping and twitching from lef tot right. It looks stupid and it completly kills the feeling of ns. Leap is understandable and adds to the feeling but this just ruins it. Before atleast skulks would hide and climb walls, now its just how fast can i bhop, and if speed is a problem just take out bhop and make them move/strafe faster and problems solved.
<!--QuoteBegin-TheGivingTree+May 18 2005, 01:02 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheGivingTree @ May 18 2005, 01:02 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> "they still learn how to bhop. only removing the element of timing. It puts everyone in the same positition and removes the need for scripts if people want to use space bar etc. Please give reasons behind your logic in future."
Ever since more and more people started to bhop, the eeling of ns has droped for me. I can't help but see it as a joke to see aliens constantly jumping and twitching from lef tot right. It looks stupid and it completly kills the feeling of ns. Leap is understandable and adds to the feeling but this just ruins it. Before atleast skulks would hide and climb walls, now its just how fast can i bhop, and if speed is a problem just take out bhop and make them move/strafe faster and problems solved. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Because hiding and climbing are most definitely <b>not</b> extensively used in competitive play.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
edited May 2005
One thing you seem fail to put into account here, is the significance of the siege nerf. While you actually had a decent chance to siege down almost finished / finished 2nd hives in 3.0b5, that is no longer the case. The removal of siege damage on players has also removed the very common alien player death to siege, which was a major contributor to marine power in 3.0b5.
<!--QuoteBegin-Nadagast+May 18 2005, 04:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Nadagast @ May 18 2005, 04:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Adding an upgrade to make every marine spawn with a welder would help a lot I think. And if you put it on the armory, make it quick. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> this should replace handgrenades
oh yeah and free skulk upgrades should stay if only because it lets the alien team rely less on fades / lerks, bump up the marines elsewhere i say
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
If everyone would stop trying to nerf aliens and talk about buffing marines, we would have an easier time talking about the balance issue. Increasing the speed of midgame marine tech and adding at least one early game buff (either a welder upgrade or lowering the cost of a few marine structures a little more) would offset the power of alien early/mid games a great bit. Marines really struggle to get a good midgame going, while aliens simply have to let the game play out to that point. It's always been like this, however marines are at a greater disadvantage now than compared to B5. What is needed is something to increase the likelihood that a strong marine push to a hive will result in a hive kill if they can hold the ground. Decreasing the cooldown on siege firing or increasing their damage would be my first thought, as well as buffing up siege hp. Another alternative is increasing the damage on GLs and HMGs. Increasing HMG damage or something else (ROF, reload time, anything) would greatly alter the balance simply due to the fact that an advanced armory is somewhat easy to get (though still too difficult considering how powerful early/midgame aliens are) and can do incredible damage to aliens, while still sucking vs structures (they do the same damage as a shotgun per magazine, but takes far longer). GLs really need to do half damage to aliens, it's designed for taking down structures, not spamming aliens to death. If this is done, increasing it's damage to speed up hive takedowns shouldn't be an issue. Shotguns have been toyed with the past couple of builds, so we'll wait to see what happens before talking about them any.
<!--QuoteBegin-TheAdj+May 18 2005, 09:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheAdj @ May 18 2005, 09:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If everyone would stop trying to nerf aliens and talk about buffing marines, we would have an easier time talking about the balance issue. Increasing the speed of midgame marine tech and adding at least one early game buff <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Making marine tech faster <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=93514' target='_blank'>here</a>
A small early game buff , that also helps mid game <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=93152' target='_blank'>here</a>
TheAdjHe demanded a cool forum title of some type.Join Date: 2004-05-03Member: 28436Members, NS1 Playtester, Constellation
Read the last two pages of posts and you'll see what I mean. Only a handful of examples in a thread 7 pages long is bad business indeed. Balance with buffs, not nerfs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If everyone would stop trying to nerf aliens and talk about buffing marines, we would have an easier time talking about the balance issue.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
why?
i've already stated that personally id prefer to use alien nerfs to balance ns and have talked about what these could possibly be, i believe these changes would be much more effective than any number of upgrade time tweaks though i guess making the aa finish 10seconds earlier would allow marines to kill focus celerity leaping skulks no prob <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> . If you want to see marine buffs then post about them yourself.
i just cant understand why people would prefer to balance by only using buffs, it seems like a totally crazy way to balance a game.
also, Adj no offense but have you actually managed to play 3.0f in a proper clan environment? because if not then i really dont see how you can post on balance changes for it
Free upgrades has made skulking a lot less fun. Before you had to THINK, now its like "HEY IM GONNA BHOP AT TIS MARINES DOWN TEH CORRIDOR AND BITE K CAUSE CLERIRY BROKES MY HITBOXES". Or you just run at marines from behind with silence. This tend to make the marine-side of NS a less fun.
Free upgrades has just made skulking a lot less intresting, I'd say that a cost should be re-introduced, even if 2 res seems as bit harsh. 1 res would be a fair trade-off for the kharaa since they have gotten other boosts aswell (innite regen beeing one of them). This would also help to strengthen the marines a bit during the mid-game since the entire alien team won't consist of <b>free</b> focus celerity skulks that leaps around your head.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Well I've come to like the mid-game battles where both teams have managed to tech up. Buffing marines so they reach that point easier seems in my eyes like a game enhancing move, while nerfing aliens so the game gets more balanced is a step backwards.
You can balance a game while making it either better or worse when it comes to actual game play and game flow.
This must be like the fifth time I post this on the forums >_>
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
I've read it like five times now <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
nerfing skulks is not a step backwards for gameplay, making skulks actually think whether they should spend that res for celerity/silence or save surely adds to gameplay. i really cant see how every alien team taking mcs and all skulks having celerity/silence is in anyway better than every alien team taking dcs and no skulks having upgrades as it was in b5, from a gameplay perspective both of these systems are pretty flawed and what is needed is a compromise between the effectiveness of skulks and their cost to the team. nerfs are not always steps backwards in terms of gameplay they're merely changes which address balance issues in another way and are often easier to deal with because their effect on gameplay can be pretty much figured out before hand. to think that the only way to balance a game and retain good gameplay by only using buffs is fairly naive :/
<!--QuoteBegin-TheAdj+May 19 2005, 06:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TheAdj @ May 19 2005, 06:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Balance with buffs, not nerfs. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Buffing to much leads to quick no comback games as a team's window for a comback gets smaller. Im not saying this is the case but just something to remember.
I think we are fairly close to have a NS where the mid-game is actually the main part of the game, as opposed to the early game as it used to be. That's why I feel we should build the game in that direction (strenghtening the mid-games "position" as the mian part of the game), instead of reverting to an old system that made us see the early part of the game being the main portion of NS.
It's situational what part of the game to alter, and in this situation I want to do as I wrote above.
<!--QuoteBegin-Garet Jax+May 19 2005, 06:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Garet Jax @ May 19 2005, 06:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Contrary to what coris says (note, this is an opinion only) I think that free upgrades has made skulking more fun.
Before I was restricted to a couple of tactics, now I can mix things up a bit. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> It's more fun because it's a lot easier to skulk now. You need less skill to kill stuff..
It has also taken a lot of the fun out from the marine-side of the game.
tankefuglOne Script To Rule Them All...Trondheim, NorwayJoin Date: 2002-11-14Member: 8641Members, Retired Developer, NS1 Playtester, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue
Balance, guys. Balance.
I'll delete posts if you don't shift the subject towards the inital intention of this thread.
Well I think we have covered the balance issue mostly. Stronger skulks make for a weaker marine early game which has effects throughout the game.
The two main views of how to balance this is either
a) weakening aliens or strengthening marines to revert to the old type of gameplay with strong early marines, and balance shifting towards aliens as second hive goes up
b) strenghtening marine tech, or weakening alien mid game to refocus the game on teched marines fighting aliens with fades and a second hive.
<!--QuoteBegin-tjosan+May 19 2005, 08:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (tjosan @ May 19 2005, 08:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Well I think we have covered the balance issue mostly. Stronger skulks make for a weaker marine early game which has effects throughout the game.
The two main views of how to balance this is either
a) weakening aliens or strengthening marines to revert to the old type of gameplay with strong early marines, and balance shifting towards aliens as second hive goes up
b) strenghtening marine tech, or weakening alien mid game to refocus the game on teched marines fighting aliens with fades and a second hive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i agree those are the two best ways to go, but i dont think the first would nessecarily be a step backwards in terms of gameplay, its not like upgrades would be 2 res again, or skulks would lose their extra bullet etc.
Okay, so when are upgrades gonna cost 1? <img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/style_images/TSA_Skin-975/icon12.gif' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Comments
1/1/1
1/2/3
0/2/2
Or keep the current price scheme:
0/0/0
Any of them could work, but I think 1/2/3 punishes the aliens more than it needs to. At 0/2/2, it would only start to affect the aliens when the second Hive came up, which is where most people complain about balance--1 Hive Aliens already have to fight pretty hard to hold their ground. But I have to wonder how much trouble it would be to encode an increasing price for upgrades based on how many you already have? Just from a coding standpoint, 1/1/1 might be a lot easier than either 1/2/3 or 0/2/2. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
thanks that you briefly ignored me.
But if you do so, can you please state why you didn´t like that suggestion? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I ignored you because you proposed costs of 2/4/8/10, which are HIGHER than they were in 2.01, and are almost guaranteed to be considered too high by almost everyone here. If the difference between 0 and 2 is enough to swing the balance from one team to another, whats the difference between 0 and 10 going to do?
personally i would prefer an upgrade cost over a longer gestation time, although they may have similar results in lowering the number of skulks taking as many upgrades as possible, longer upgrade times are more frustrating and would hurt gameplay more i think.
oh and, marines arnt weak, they wern't weak in b5, aliens just recieved several massive buffs which tipped the balance into their favour significantly, it doesnt make sense to mess about too much with a team that worked fine before the changes than to alter something where you know the effect it is going to have on balance
btw: 1/2/3 would probably be my favourite, or 0/2/2 with altered alien rfk, id much prefer to see these implemented than any number of random marine buffs.
0/0/0
1-Hive--All aliens have 1 upgrade, all the time
2-Hive--All aliens have 2 upgrades, all the time
3-Hive--All aliens have 3 upgrades, all the time
Generation of high lifeforms is at fastest.
1/1/1
1-Hive--Higher lifeforms will have 1 upgrade. Skulks will usually have 1 upgrade, but not always, and will have a little slower res accumulation
2-Hive--Higher lifeforms will have 2 upgrades. Skulks will be seen with 0, 1, or 2 upgrades depending on strength of alien res.
3-Hive--Higher lifeforms will have 3 upgrades, Skulks 1-3.
Generation of high lifeforms slowed down slightly, but not much
1/2/3
1-Hive--Higher lifeforms will have 1 upgrade. Skulks will usually have 1 upgrade, but not always, and will have a little slower res accumulation
2-Hive--Higher lifeforms will have 2 upgrades (gorges may stick with 1). Skulks will usually be seen with 1 upgrade, although they may buy 2 for specific tasks.
3-Hive--Higher lifeforms will have 3 upgrades. Skulks and Gorges probably 1-2.
Generation of higher lifeforms slowed down a little more
Upgraded skulks discouraged from gestating to another lifeform, because of loss of res on upgrades.
0/2/2
1-Hive--All lifeforms have 1 upgrade
2-Hive--Higher lifeforms have 2 upgrades, skulks will usually be seen with 1
3-Hive--Higher lifeforms have 3 upgrades, skulks probably 1-2.
Generation of higher lifeforms slowed down slightly, but not until the 2-Hive level.
What pattern do we like?
- Upgrades cost 2 res after the second hive.
or
- Upgrades cost 1 res then 2 res then 3 res.
vs.
- Upgrades cost 1 res.
Ever since more and more people started to bhop, the eeling of ns has droped for me. I can't help but see it as a joke to see aliens constantly jumping and twitching from lef tot right. It looks stupid and it completly kills the feeling of ns. Leap is understandable and adds to the feeling but this just ruins it. Before atleast skulks would hide and climb walls, now its just how fast can i bhop, and if speed is a problem just take out bhop and make them move/strafe faster and problems solved.
Ever since more and more people started to bhop, the eeling of ns has droped for me. I can't help but see it as a joke to see aliens constantly jumping and twitching from lef tot right. It looks stupid and it completly kills the feeling of ns. Leap is understandable and adds to the feeling but this just ruins it. Before atleast skulks would hide and climb walls, now its just how fast can i bhop, and if speed is a problem just take out bhop and make them move/strafe faster and problems solved. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because hiding and climbing are most definitely <b>not</b> extensively used in competitive play.
Lets not forget the age old discussion of R4K.
R4K is to help marines pay for meds/ammo, what is the reason for alien R4K?
Some may say, "To speed up the game", Isnt the game fast enough?
Oh -- upgraded skulks are fun. Don't ruin it.
Carry on.
Carry on. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Fixed - carry on.
this should replace handgrenades
oh yeah and free skulk upgrades should stay if only because it lets the alien team rely less on fades / lerks, bump up the marines elsewhere i say
Making marine tech faster <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=93514' target='_blank'>here</a>
A small early game buff , that also helps mid game <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=93152' target='_blank'>here</a>
and theres 2 others.
why?
i've already stated that personally id prefer to use alien nerfs to balance ns and have talked about what these could possibly be, i believe these changes would be much more effective than any number of upgrade time tweaks though i guess making the aa finish 10seconds earlier would allow marines to kill focus celerity leaping skulks no prob <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> . If you want to see marine buffs then post about them yourself.
i just cant understand why people would prefer to balance by only using buffs, it seems like a totally crazy way to balance a game.
also, Adj no offense but have you actually managed to play 3.0f in a proper clan environment? because if not then i really dont see how you can post on balance changes for it
Free upgrades has made skulking a lot less fun. Before you had to THINK, now its like "HEY IM GONNA BHOP AT TIS MARINES DOWN TEH CORRIDOR AND BITE K CAUSE CLERIRY BROKES MY HITBOXES". Or you just run at marines from behind with silence. This tend to make the marine-side of NS a less fun.
Free upgrades has just made skulking a lot less intresting, I'd say that a cost should be re-introduced, even if 2 res seems as bit harsh. 1 res would be a fair trade-off for the kharaa since they have gotten other boosts aswell (innite regen beeing one of them). This would also help to strengthen the marines a bit during the mid-game since the entire alien team won't consist of <b>free</b> focus celerity skulks that leaps around your head.
You can balance a game while making it either better or worse when it comes to actual game play and game flow.
This must be like the fifth time I post this on the forums >_>
Your viewpoint is noted, don't worry.
Buffing to much leads to quick no comback games as a team's window for a comback gets smaller. Im not saying this is the case but just something to remember.
It's situational what part of the game to alter, and in this situation I want to do as I wrote above.
Before I was restricted to a couple of tactics, now I can mix things up a bit.
Before I was restricted to a couple of tactics, now I can mix things up a bit. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's more fun because it's a lot easier to skulk now. You need less skill to kill stuff..
It has also taken a lot of the fun out from the marine-side of the game.
I'll delete posts if you don't shift the subject towards the inital intention of this thread.
The two main views of how to balance this is either
a) weakening aliens or strengthening marines to revert to the old type of gameplay with strong early marines, and balance shifting towards aliens as second hive goes up
b) strenghtening marine tech, or weakening alien mid game to refocus the game on teched marines fighting aliens with fades and a second hive.
Got my vote ^^
The two main views of how to balance this is either
a) weakening aliens or strengthening marines to revert to the old type of gameplay with strong early marines, and balance shifting towards aliens as second hive goes up
b) strenghtening marine tech, or weakening alien mid game to refocus the game on teched marines fighting aliens with fades and a second hive. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
i agree those are the two best ways to go, but i dont think the first would nessecarily be a step backwards in terms of gameplay, its not like upgrades would be 2 res again, or skulks would lose their extra bullet etc.
Remember, I like to state the obvious...