The arguement that you need to stop ramboing to beat SC is pretty weak. In a competitive enviroment rambos are rarely used because a lone marine unless of the highest calibre has very little chance of survival and a simple bit of teamwork displayed by the aliens will easily dispatch all but the most skilled players. This is even more apparent in 3.0 where free upgrades make the process of picking off lone marines easier. Lone marines however were never an issue in competitive play. What you had to look out for were the big 3-5 man push through a choke point. Marines in clans have been displaying teamwork and such since the dawn of time, we do not struggle to win because we're unable to stick together and cover each other. The issue is that even big 3-5 man pushes can be stopped by skulks, especially cloaked skulks in range of a SC with focus.
In short, sensory is a ****. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
"Only bad skulks, because it takes little skill to use!"
I don't understand why this means cloaking is bad. Isn't the idea of the game to bite the enemy to death? Doesn't using a technique to make this easier fall under the category of "helping your team?" I mean, it takes less skill to kill a skulk with an HMG than a knife right?
If you know the aliens have cloaking skulks, and you really want to secure an area, and you are alone without support of scan, then either you or your commander is doing something wrong.
I can imagine that it is no fun to get bitten to death by something you never saw, but by the same token, it is no fun to get blasted by a shotgun that snuck into your hive room to pick you off as you spawn. Playing solely for your ego is not going to win you anything, and sometimes you just have to take it for the team.
Some of you don't even get the basics of this game.
Sorry if that's rude, but someone telling me "adapt foo, u hav 2 get more obs" perhaps fails to realize that by the time you have the resources to build an obs in some random corridor (a1 first, 3-4 rt's), the sensories are already in place. That obs in your random corridor, providing you even get it up, will give you one scan. One scan to rule them all or something? I don't think so. Do you expect the aliens to sit there picking their nose? they'll just go out of the scan range, wait for it to pass, and kill you while your team made it inside the place where the sensory is (no you can't kill them without boosting since sensories go in vents and such and even if you did boost, you'd have an lmg guy in a vent knifing it. Awesome. My kill!
The teamwork/rambo argument is just as ridiculous. There is <u>nothing</u> stopping cloaked skulks to take out armor0 node cappers, even if you'd send your whole goddamn team to west access, the guy could still die as he presses E in theory. Unless you want to spend your earlier built obs to scan your nodecapper(s) instead of using it to take down alien rt's and have a slight chance in hell to actually win?
And yes, the game is won or lost in pretty much that timewindow. That's the basic you guys aren't getting. If you don't kill alien nodes early game, you lose. Sensory makes it near impossible to do so, as it is.
However, I don't think it's just sensory. A lot of combined alien buffs see to it that it's become a very difficult quest to not get owned early game, regardless of chamber. Marines do not have the possibilities/abilities to keep up with the tech race.
In many ways I can't help but see 'ego' come through in some responses. It's not just that they are killed by someone that they can't see, but that they are killed by someone whom they say has 'no skill' that they can't see. Would it be any better if the person was highly skilled? It shouldn't be.
Cloaking is not necessarily a 'fun' thing to be on the wrong end of, but how many people <b>enjoy</b> getting killed anyway?
If people object to cloaking, should they not object to medpacks? Here we are, a skulk without cloaking about to kill a marine. However, the marine gets 'saved' by an 'invisible' enemy, thus causing the skulk to die an untimely death. How 'fair' is that when you have gone to all the trouble to set up a marine to kill only to have some 'invisible' person **** that away?
Same for motion tracking, SOF which gives a player an advantage by knowing where an opponent is.
There are plenty of things in NS that aren't really that 'fair' to the other team, but there are also counters to that. Cloaking is countered by scan. If cloaked aliens are a problem then that means the commander has to be more vigilant in scanning areas ahead of his squads. (and of course to rush MT)
An alien team that goes Sensory first is a WEAK alien team overall. es they may start like gangbusters, but the SC becomes increasingly useless as the game progresses. Focus becomes weak once marines get armor upgrades and cloaking becomes weak once marines get MT.
Furthermore, aliens are forced to make a critical choice for second chamber. If they choose movement second then they gain quick access between hives and the respective MC upgrades. However that also means they won't have defense chambers or those upgrades, and that means weaker fades/onos.
Alternately, if they choose DC for second chamber, they gain strength with the chamber upgrades, but lose the ability to move quickly between hives. That can mean a hive's death should marines rush it and you are on the other side of the map.
Sensory chambers, in my opinion, are not overpowered. If anything, I'm still not happy with how they play out. While most all of the MC and DC chamber upgrades are useful in the later game, the SC upgrades are not nearly as useful in the later game as the MC and DC upgrades.
The only concession that I would be willing to make on cloaking (personal) is to possibly add a hotkey that has to be used to 'enable/disable' an alien's personal cloak. While cloaked they can't attack, and when decloaking they can't attack either. (sorta like the Klingon ships in Star Trek) However, sensory chambers should not face such a nerf. If there is an SC in a given area, scan for it and kill it. If you can't kill it, then use scan to avoid its effects. If that means more scanning, build more obs.
We had this VERY same issue way back when cloaking became inherent to the Sensory chamber. Aliens used it ALL the time and people cried about how overpowering it was. Fast forward a couple months and people were back to DMS. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think that part of the problem for competitive games is that when marines are faced with a first chamber Sensory, that they are still playing to 'win'. If it was me, I would instead change my tactics and play for a DRAW. The weakness of the SC is that it leaves the aliens vulnerable in the middle game. So instead of playing to win from the outset, play to draw - IE play a defensive game - and build on small gains instead of pushing for an early win.
I see aliens lose with SC on pubs all the time, and not with a team full of 'nubs' either. The 'winning strat' is out there, you just haven't found it yet.
Nice one Savant. Buggeh presents reason why things A B and C do not work, and you make a response containing A B and C.
Focus is NOT a weak upgrade, regardless of where in the game you are. At second hive focus is perhaps the best upgrade to have availiable of all the alien upgrades, because suddenly your skulks become leaping missiles of focus doom.
No, it is obvious Savant, that you are one of the people who do <b>not</b> know how the game works.
<!--QuoteBegin-Talesin+Mar 31 2005, 04:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Mar 31 2005, 04:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So long as you define 'experienced' as 'those that can think'. Even a newbie Comm (so long as they are new to the game) can adapt to sensory-first.
It's all the whiners that are so set in their rut of defending against Defense first that can't manage to change their tactics.
Cloaking just means the Comm needs to actually use Sensor Sweep for more than a siege attack, and build Obs at mini-bases. Adapt or die. Those who can't adapt are the ones whining about Sensory being overpowered. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a really good post, makes me wonder if you play NS.
In pubs, the majority of players are not that smart. Even if you have a top ace comm, there will be no way to keep hold on your res nodes long enough to be able to build obs at minibases, or to scan. Sensory does remove the skill aspect when it comes to the skulk. Not to mention, even if you somehow did have enough res to do all of what you suggested, it would be insanly hard for a commander to keep scanning all the time, for all his different squads out there, while still dropping meds/guns/ammo/buildings and researching.
God guys, just adapt or die already. Stop whinning about sensory being overpowered.
(btw, Talesin, I'd love to see you comm and a game where aliens go sensory first and watch you try to "adapt")
The skill aspect doesnt not bother me one bit. I dont care how easy SC is, i just want countering it to be realistic for the average pub team.
Having obs start with more energy and making scanning more inuitive would help. Make scanning a seperate bind and a seperate button the hud. Then maybe it wont only be the experienced comms who actually use it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Savant+Mar 31 2005, 09:52 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Savant @ Mar 31 2005, 09:52 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> In many ways I can't help but see 'ego' come through in some responses. It's not just that they are killed by someone that they can't see, but that they are killed by someone whom they say has 'no skill' that they can't see. Would it be any better if the person was highly skilled? It shouldn't be.
Cloaking is not necessarily a 'fun' thing to be on the wrong end of, but how many people <b>enjoy</b> getting killed anyway?
If people object to cloaking, should they not object to medpacks? Here we are, a skulk without cloaking about to kill a marine. However, the marine gets 'saved' by an 'invisible' enemy, thus causing the skulk to die an untimely death. How 'fair' is that when you have gone to all the trouble to set up a marine to kill only to have some 'invisible' person **** that away?
Same for motion tracking, SOF which gives a player an advantage by knowing where an opponent is.
There are plenty of things in NS that aren't really that 'fair' to the other team, but there are also counters to that. Cloaking is countered by scan. If cloaked aliens are a problem then that means the commander has to be more vigilant in scanning areas ahead of his squads. (and of course to rush MT)
An alien team that goes Sensory first is a WEAK alien team overall. es they may start like gangbusters, but the SC becomes increasingly useless as the game progresses. Focus becomes weak once marines get armor upgrades and cloaking becomes weak once marines get MT.
Furthermore, aliens are forced to make a critical choice for second chamber. If they choose movement second then they gain quick access between hives and the respective MC upgrades. However that also means they won't have defense chambers or those upgrades, and that means weaker fades/onos.
Alternately, if they choose DC for second chamber, they gain strength with the chamber upgrades, but lose the ability to move quickly between hives. That can mean a hive's death should marines rush it and you are on the other side of the map.
Sensory chambers, in my opinion, are not overpowered. If anything, I'm still not happy with how they play out. While most all of the MC and DC chamber upgrades are useful in the later game, the SC upgrades are not nearly as useful in the later game as the MC and DC upgrades.
The only concession that I would be willing to make on cloaking (personal) is to possibly add a hotkey that has to be used to 'enable/disable' an alien's personal cloak. While cloaked they can't attack, and when decloaking they can't attack either. (sorta like the Klingon ships in Star Trek) However, sensory chambers should not face such a nerf. If there is an SC in a given area, scan for it and kill it. If you can't kill it, then use scan to avoid its effects. If that means more scanning, build more obs.
We had this VERY same issue way back when cloaking became inherent to the Sensory chamber. Aliens used it ALL the time and people cried about how overpowering it was. Fast forward a couple months and people were back to DMS. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think that part of the problem for competitive games is that when marines are faced with a first chamber Sensory, that they are still playing to 'win'. If it was me, I would instead change my tactics and play for a DRAW. The weakness of the SC is that it leaves the aliens vulnerable in the middle game. So instead of playing to win from the outset, play to draw - IE play a defensive game - and build on small gains instead of pushing for an early win.
I see aliens lose with SC on pubs all the time, and not with a team full of 'nubs' either. The 'winning strat' is out there, you just haven't found it yet.
fanaticThis post has been edited.Join Date: 2003-07-23Member: 18377Members, Constellation, Squad Five Blue
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We had this VERY same issue way back when cloaking became inherent to the Sensory chamber. Aliens used it ALL the time and people cried about how overpowering it was. Fast forward a couple months and people were back to DMS. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You need to learn to distinguish between random pubbers whining because they just lost a game on their regular server, and people who actually know something about how the game plays out. The version has been out for almost a month now, and competitive gamers still haven't found a decent counter to SC, that doesn't involve unbelievably boring two-hive lockdown type strategies, or some sort of HA/JP turtle. Let me put it like this: SC first tactics are beatable, but harder to beat than say a DC or MC first strategy. The fact that these games are also extremely boring, and tend to last more than twice the amount of time a DC or MC game lasts (and we're not talking about your oh-so-holy epic games here, we're talking about drawn out games where the winner is a foregone conclusion after 5 minutes into the game, yet it still lasts 20-30 minutes) just makes it even worse. DC first being the common best way to go was pretty much accepted in competitive up until the version change, although there were some mumblings and ramblings (with good reason), because it was still fun, although you mostly did the same strategy every round. SC first games ARE NOT.
(if you bother replying to this with "oh but lol public games I play with SC first are hella fun for both teams" I'll just ignore you, ok).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think that part of the problem for competitive games is that when marines are faced with a first chamber Sensory, that they are still playing to 'win'. If it was me, I would instead change my tactics and play for a DRAW. The weakness of the SC is that it leaves the aliens vulnerable in the middle game. So instead of playing to win from the outset, play to draw - IE play a defensive game - and build on small gains instead of pushing for an early win.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What a load of crock. "Still playing to win", "play for a draw"? What kind of rhetoric is this? Read Buggy's statement above, or some of the other replies by clanners, and you might actually start to realize what the cheese is going on here. This exact draw mentality is what most clans do to counter SC first now, and let me tell you, it's neither efficient nor fun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I see aliens lose with SC on pubs all the time, and not with a team full of 'nubs' either. The 'winning strat' is out there, you just haven't found it yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's been a month, now. I would think that in the few houndred practice matches that have been played since then someone would've found a reliable counter if there was one. Read replies by Buggy, comrade, and other competitive players in various topic to realize why. And please, READ, don't just sit there thinking "lol what idiots, I know better than this!".
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->An alien team that goes Sensory first is a WEAK alien team overall.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
have you ever seen a good focus fade?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We had this VERY same issue way back when cloaking became inherent to the Sensory chamber. Aliens used it ALL the time and people cried about how overpowering it was. Fast forward a couple months and people were back to DMS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that was a different situation. back then, sc's went from totally useless to "good because no-one knew how to fight them".
then focus arrived, and sc become useful, though still not as good as d/m.
now with 3.0 and the buffs, large in both volume and strenght, given to the alien team, the sc is horribly overpowered. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think that part of the problem for competitive games is that when marines are faced with a first chamber Sensory, that they are still playing to 'win'. If it was me, I would instead change my tactics and play for a DRAW. The weakness of the SC is that it leaves the aliens vulnerable in the middle game. So instead of playing to win from the outset, play to draw - IE play a defensive game - and build on small gains instead of pushing for an early win.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
marines are at their strongest very early in the game, and thats when you HAVE to push for nodes. if you stop and start playing defensively that second hive will go up, and your few (if any) nodes should suddenly be enough for jetpackers and a long battle. thats just not possible. besides, the sc has no middle-game weakness. sc helps to keep that second hive alive, and focus fade + lerks are just insane. especially since the marines do not have res for welders/obs'/armor upgrades/stupid amounts of medpacks. oh, and even if you manage to get all that, what are you going to kill the fades with? lvl1 lmg's? i think not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I see aliens lose with SC on pubs all the time, and not with a team full of 'nubs' either. The 'winning strat' is out there, you just haven't found it yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the next time you see an alien team losing with sc's, switch sides and see what kind of magic the marines are doing to win. and then, please come tell me.
<!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+Mar 31 2005, 11:04 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve @ Mar 31 2005, 11:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Talesin+Mar 31 2005, 04:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Mar 31 2005, 04:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So long as you define 'experienced' as 'those that can think'. Even a newbie Comm (so long as they are new to the game) can adapt to sensory-first.
It's all the whiners that are so set in their rut of defending against Defense first that can't manage to change their tactics.
Cloaking just means the Comm needs to actually use Sensor Sweep for more than a siege attack, and build Obs at mini-bases. Adapt or die. Those who can't adapt are the ones whining about Sensory being overpowered. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's a really good post, makes me wonder if you play NS.
In pubs, the majority of players are not that smart. Even if you have a top ace comm, there will be no way to keep hold on your res nodes long enough to be able to build obs at minibases, or to scan. Sensory does remove the skill aspect when it comes to the skulk. Not to mention, even if you somehow did have enough res to do all of what you suggested, it would be insanly hard for a commander to keep scanning all the time, for all his different squads out there, while still dropping meds/guns/ammo/buildings and researching.
God guys, just adapt or die already. Stop whinning about sensory being overpowered.
(btw, Talesin, I'd love to see you comm and a game where aliens go sensory first and watch you try to "adapt") <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree with steve on this matter, and also, the obs energy has nowhere near enough energy to scan as much as you're saying Talesin. If the energy recharge rate or whatever its supposed to be called, was at a higher rate, OR if it costs res again, then it would be good, BUT, Sensory is probably the most overpowered chamber in the aspect that it has <b>2</b> passive bonuses, the cloaking when in range and All marines in range marked under scent of fear, I have countless ideas that might benifit this game, but I wont bother even chipping the iceburg with those, seeing as nothing will be implimented, as i'm probably seen as some forum trool pub noob or something, when none of my competitive experience is noticed, therefore i'm going to make a signature just for you Talesin. Thank you and good day.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I see aliens lose with SC on pubs all the time, and not with a team full of 'nubs' either. The 'winning strat' is out there, you just haven't found it yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The winning strat is a 2 hive lockdown. I simply refuse to play if that's the case because it's flipping boring. If you're naive enough to think that the best players in the world can't find a tactic to beat a chamber after a month then there's nothing I can do except maybe suggest you use your head. Thousands of practise matches have been played now, several high level tournaments have been played too, SC is only beaten if the aliens are stupid (ie teamUK style).
Ugh... There is lots of winning strats. I´m a newbie comm and I have found others. And in my opinion SC is my chamber of choice when dealing with aliens. I have played alien alot so I know where they put their SC chambers. Also, those chambers are open for attack leaving the aliens weakend everytime you take one out. Weapon of choice is GL. Trade off for w2 (not needed with no DC aliens)
And if you play both teams often you know where the aliens will ambush you. Scan for the win and GL.
Mine everything (mines don´t care about cloaking).
<!--QuoteBegin-RBS+Mar 31 2005, 04:10 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (RBS @ Mar 31 2005, 04:10 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-SDJason+Mar 31 2005, 01:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SDJason @ Mar 31 2005, 01:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Im sorry to be blunt..... but
Whats the name of this game again....
Go google it.... tell me what you find out.......
Then quit whining and learn to do as the definition of the TITLE OF THIS GAME says......
P.S. Teamwork, Observatories, 2 Hive Lockdown's, SCANNING, Staying in groups, Being Cautious, Working Together ECT ECT ECT....
Yeah... u cant rambo anymore.... so DONT DO IT...
Yeah, u need constant scanning, so MAKE MORE THAN ONE OBSERVATORY
Yeah, the comm actually serves a purpose other than your med/ammo ****, so LISTEN TO HIM
Yeah, ur not invulnerable invisible super man with ur lmg anymore, SO DONT TRY AND BE....
The end
~Jason <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Soooo, let me get this straight, buffing cloaking had something to do with stopping ramboing? That blows me away if it has any truth to it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> No it hasnt
<!--QuoteBegin-SentrySteve+Mar 31 2005, 11:16 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SentrySteve @ Mar 31 2005, 11:16 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I like how top end players (CAL clanners) are saying that it's overpowered, while the people who blindly support NS (ie - the mods) just say "adapt"<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ironically the shoe seems to be on the other foot when we talk fades, the "blind NS supports" complain while the "top end players" say 'adapt'. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-fanatic+Mar 31 2005, 11:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (fanatic @ Mar 31 2005, 11:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You need to learn to distinguish between random pubbers whining because they just lost a game on their regular server, and people who actually know something about how the game plays out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Collectively insulting the 90% of people who play NS on public servers certainly isn't helping your cause any. Believe it or not, many people who play on public servers are quite skilled. The fact they aren't part of a 'clan' does not diminish their skill or the validity of their opinions. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let me put it like this: SC first tactics are beatable, but harder to beat than say a DC or MC first strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->So why is this a problem? With every version that has been released, there has been one chamber that had an 'edge' over the other chambers. Prior to this it used to be the Defense chamber, and the DMS order became engraved in the collective minds of nearly everyone that played NS. The fact that the defense chamber was harder to beat (in past versions) didn't illicit the type of response we're seeing now, yet the same principle remains.
After years of DMS we have started to crack the cycle, only to have clanners complain because they don't like the way Sensory plays out. Why should we bother trying to make all the chambers viable? If competitive players dislike any balance that will topple DMS then there is no way we'll ever find a solution.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's been a month, now. I would think that in the few houndred practice matches that have been played since then someone would've found a reliable counter if there was one. Read replies by Buggy, comrade, and other competitive players in various topic to realize why. And please, READ, don't just sit there thinking "lol what idiots, I know better than this!".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I've never suggested that "I know better than this" with regard to competitive games, but I also know (from having played competitively) the kind of mindset that competitive players get in.
It doesn't matter what change comes into play, people are always looking for that one 'killer' strat that will give them the edge.
Here's a thought...
If competitive players like a challenge, and they don't like predictable chamber orders or games, then why don't we change NS so that in tournament mode the first chamber for the alien team is chosen at random by the server? The game then progresses with aliens trying to make the best of it, and marines not 'expecting' a given strat since first chamber is random.
In the end there is no way we can balance the game for pubs and competitive play. All the developers have said as much, and they have also said that compromises will need to be made. Until/unless this policy of 'one version' for pubs/clans changes, people are going to have to get used to the fact that some aspects of the game will play better/worse depending on whether it is a pub/clan game.
Skill isn't the issue, sensory is beatable on pubs because of lack of teamwork and co-ordination. Sensory is nearly unbeatable in clan matches because a good alien team doesn't need to work too hard to win, drop SCs at choke points straight away, skulks take upgrades, kill marines, chew rts, win. The only real way you can lose is if you screw up your early SC drop and get two hive lock downed.
EDIT: I'd like to see savant, talesin and the other people who doubt the validity of our claims take up mu's challenge.
<!--QuoteBegin-TranquilChaos+Mar 31 2005, 11:42 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (TranquilChaos @ Mar 31 2005, 11:42 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If you can repeat something enough times with enough conviction and get enough people to follow in your stead, it automatically becomes true.
All together now!: <b><i>SCs are perfectly balanced, cloaking is a fun upgrade, SCs are perfectly balanced, cloaking is a fun upgrade.</i></b>
Hmm, I may need to go back and mess with font/size/color, we have a few strong disbelievers in this thread. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Sarcasm adds nothing. It could be just as easily said that some people are trying the same thing with the "We have adapted, you're just clueless" mantra. Perhaps being constructive might help more?
Personally, I do find cloaking to be a fun upgrade, whether on marine or alien. Then again, I don't really care whether I win or lose, but rather how much I get involved in the game, so maybe that's a difference. After all, if I wanted to feel like I was working, I'd actually work and make money while doing it.
At any rate, it's been a month, from what I've heard and what I can deduce from the changelog, I'm willing to concede that aliens are probably dominating in the clan-scene. Like buggy (buggeh? one of them, apologies for not remembering) though, I don't lay this at the feet of the sensory chamber at all, but rather at the way aliens were generally buffed and marines slightly nerfed in what was already a very balanced scene competitively.
This made one of the most fun chambers for aliens (c'mon.. who doesn't think being able to go "Boo!" is fun?) viable because aliens can survive with it. There might be some additional problems because clan games are decided so early (which I think is a problem in itself, but hey.. if that's the way they like to play..)
So, getting back to topic: The deal with sensory is that clan games are heavily weighted toward the early game, which is where aliens recieved their largest buffs and which is where the sensory chamber has the largest effect. Rather than change the weighting of the game, most of the folks protesting sensory would rather address the symptom they can easily see -- the sensory chamber.
Have to agree with those points. SC in competitive play is insanely difficult to defeat due to the SoF / Cloaking / Focus combo. 5 marines simply have great difficulty punching through a SC blockade.
However, in pubs, because team sizes are large, marines stand a decent chance of winning. The large team allows marines to cap res and lockdown the middle hive or 1 hive asap.
Once 1 hive is secure, they can proceed to the remaining vacant hive. As your team is large, you can afford 2-3 losses, and if you use scan, the marines will get there. Then you lock that hive down.
Get obs in both lock down hives.
Electrify expansion RTs.
Tech whatever you want.
That's the most reliable way I've found to win in pubs. But, as people have pointed out, this drags out the game and there does not seem to be any other efficient counter.
In every version since release, including this one, sensory first games (<b><i><u>regardless of outcome</u></i></b>) have in general been very boring and frustrating to play. For reasons stated earlier in this thread by various sources.
Comments
"Only bad skulks, because it takes little skill to use!"
I don't understand why this means cloaking is bad. Isn't the idea of the game to bite the enemy to death? Doesn't using a technique to make this easier fall under the category of "helping your team?" I mean, it takes less skill to kill a skulk with an HMG than a knife right?
If you know the aliens have cloaking skulks, and you really want to secure an area, and you are alone without support of scan, then either you or your commander is doing something wrong.
I can imagine that it is no fun to get bitten to death by something you never saw, but by the same token, it is no fun to get blasted by a shotgun that snuck into your hive room to pick you off as you spawn. Playing solely for your ego is not going to win you anything, and sometimes you just have to take it for the team.
Sorry if that's rude, but someone telling me "adapt foo, u hav 2 get more obs" perhaps fails to realize that by the time you have the resources to build an obs in some random corridor (a1 first, 3-4 rt's), the sensories are already in place. That obs in your random corridor, providing you even get it up, will give you one scan. One scan to rule them all or something? I don't think so. Do you expect the aliens to sit there picking their nose? they'll just go out of the scan range, wait for it to pass, and kill you while your team made it inside the place where the sensory is (no you can't kill them without boosting since sensories go in vents and such and even if you did boost, you'd have an lmg guy in a vent knifing it. Awesome. My kill!
The teamwork/rambo argument is just as ridiculous. There is <u>nothing</u> stopping cloaked skulks to take out armor0 node cappers, even if you'd send your whole goddamn team to west access, the guy could still die as he presses E in theory. Unless you want to spend your earlier built obs to scan your nodecapper(s) instead of using it to take down alien rt's and have a slight chance in hell to actually win?
And yes, the game is won or lost in pretty much that timewindow. That's the basic you guys aren't getting. If you don't kill alien nodes early game, you lose. Sensory makes it near impossible to do so, as it is.
However, I don't think it's just sensory. A lot of combined alien buffs see to it that it's become a very difficult quest to not get owned early game, regardless of chamber. Marines do not have the possibilities/abilities to keep up with the tech race.
Cloaking is not necessarily a 'fun' thing to be on the wrong end of, but how many people <b>enjoy</b> getting killed anyway?
If people object to cloaking, should they not object to medpacks? Here we are, a skulk without cloaking about to kill a marine. However, the marine gets 'saved' by an 'invisible' enemy, thus causing the skulk to die an untimely death. How 'fair' is that when you have gone to all the trouble to set up a marine to kill only to have some 'invisible' person **** that away?
Same for motion tracking, SOF which gives a player an advantage by knowing where an opponent is.
There are plenty of things in NS that aren't really that 'fair' to the other team, but there are also counters to that. Cloaking is countered by scan. If cloaked aliens are a problem then that means the commander has to be more vigilant in scanning areas ahead of his squads. (and of course to rush MT)
An alien team that goes Sensory first is a WEAK alien team overall. es they may start like gangbusters, but the SC becomes increasingly useless as the game progresses. Focus becomes weak once marines get armor upgrades and cloaking becomes weak once marines get MT.
Furthermore, aliens are forced to make a critical choice for second chamber. If they choose movement second then they gain quick access between hives and the respective MC upgrades. However that also means they won't have defense chambers or those upgrades, and that means weaker fades/onos.
Alternately, if they choose DC for second chamber, they gain strength with the chamber upgrades, but lose the ability to move quickly between hives. That can mean a hive's death should marines rush it and you are on the other side of the map.
Sensory chambers, in my opinion, are not overpowered. If anything, I'm still not happy with how they play out. While most all of the MC and DC chamber upgrades are useful in the later game, the SC upgrades are not nearly as useful in the later game as the MC and DC upgrades.
The only concession that I would be willing to make on cloaking (personal) is to possibly add a hotkey that has to be used to 'enable/disable' an alien's personal cloak. While cloaked they can't attack, and when decloaking they can't attack either. (sorta like the Klingon ships in Star Trek) However, sensory chambers should not face such a nerf. If there is an SC in a given area, scan for it and kill it. If you can't kill it, then use scan to avoid its effects. If that means more scanning, build more obs.
We had this VERY same issue way back when cloaking became inherent to the Sensory chamber. Aliens used it ALL the time and people cried about how overpowering it was. Fast forward a couple months and people were back to DMS. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think that part of the problem for competitive games is that when marines are faced with a first chamber Sensory, that they are still playing to 'win'. If it was me, I would instead change my tactics and play for a DRAW. The weakness of the SC is that it leaves the aliens vulnerable in the middle game. So instead of playing to win from the outset, play to draw - IE play a defensive game - and build on small gains instead of pushing for an early win.
I see aliens lose with SC on pubs all the time, and not with a team full of 'nubs' either. The 'winning strat' is out there, you just haven't found it yet.
Regards,
Savant
Focus is NOT a weak upgrade, regardless of where in the game you are. At second hive focus is perhaps the best upgrade to have availiable of all the alien upgrades, because suddenly your skulks become leaping missiles of focus doom.
No, it is obvious Savant, that you are one of the people who do <b>not</b> know how the game works.
It's all the whiners that are so set in their rut of defending against Defense first that can't manage to change their tactics.
Cloaking just means the Comm needs to actually use Sensor Sweep for more than a siege attack, and build Obs at mini-bases. Adapt or die. Those who can't adapt are the ones whining about Sensory being overpowered. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a really good post, makes me wonder if you play NS.
In pubs, the majority of players are not that smart. Even if you have a top ace comm, there will be no way to keep hold on your res nodes long enough to be able to build obs at minibases, or to scan. Sensory does remove the skill aspect when it comes to the skulk. Not to mention, even if you somehow did have enough res to do all of what you suggested, it would be insanly hard for a commander to keep scanning all the time, for all his different squads out there, while still dropping meds/guns/ammo/buildings and researching.
God guys, just adapt or die already. Stop whinning about sensory being overpowered.
(btw, Talesin, I'd love to see you comm and a game where aliens go sensory first and watch you try to "adapt")
Having obs start with more energy and making scanning more inuitive would help. Make scanning a seperate bind and a seperate button the hud. Then maybe it wont only be the experienced comms who actually use it.
Cloaking is not necessarily a 'fun' thing to be on the wrong end of, but how many people <b>enjoy</b> getting killed anyway?
If people object to cloaking, should they not object to medpacks? Here we are, a skulk without cloaking about to kill a marine. However, the marine gets 'saved' by an 'invisible' enemy, thus causing the skulk to die an untimely death. How 'fair' is that when you have gone to all the trouble to set up a marine to kill only to have some 'invisible' person **** that away?
Same for motion tracking, SOF which gives a player an advantage by knowing where an opponent is.
There are plenty of things in NS that aren't really that 'fair' to the other team, but there are also counters to that. Cloaking is countered by scan. If cloaked aliens are a problem then that means the commander has to be more vigilant in scanning areas ahead of his squads. (and of course to rush MT)
An alien team that goes Sensory first is a WEAK alien team overall. es they may start like gangbusters, but the SC becomes increasingly useless as the game progresses. Focus becomes weak once marines get armor upgrades and cloaking becomes weak once marines get MT.
Furthermore, aliens are forced to make a critical choice for second chamber. If they choose movement second then they gain quick access between hives and the respective MC upgrades. However that also means they won't have defense chambers or those upgrades, and that means weaker fades/onos.
Alternately, if they choose DC for second chamber, they gain strength with the chamber upgrades, but lose the ability to move quickly between hives. That can mean a hive's death should marines rush it and you are on the other side of the map.
Sensory chambers, in my opinion, are not overpowered. If anything, I'm still not happy with how they play out. While most all of the MC and DC chamber upgrades are useful in the later game, the SC upgrades are not nearly as useful in the later game as the MC and DC upgrades.
The only concession that I would be willing to make on cloaking (personal) is to possibly add a hotkey that has to be used to 'enable/disable' an alien's personal cloak. While cloaked they can't attack, and when decloaking they can't attack either. (sorta like the Klingon ships in Star Trek) However, sensory chambers should not face such a nerf. If there is an SC in a given area, scan for it and kill it. If you can't kill it, then use scan to avoid its effects. If that means more scanning, build more obs.
We had this VERY same issue way back when cloaking became inherent to the Sensory chamber. Aliens used it ALL the time and people cried about how overpowering it was. Fast forward a couple months and people were back to DMS. <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/confused-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think that part of the problem for competitive games is that when marines are faced with a first chamber Sensory, that they are still playing to 'win'. If it was me, I would instead change my tactics and play for a DRAW. The weakness of the SC is that it leaves the aliens vulnerable in the middle game. So instead of playing to win from the outset, play to draw - IE play a defensive game - and build on small gains instead of pushing for an early win.
I see aliens lose with SC on pubs all the time, and not with a team full of 'nubs' either. The 'winning strat' is out there, you just haven't found it yet.
Regards,
Savant <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
QFT, Savant, QFT.
You need to learn to distinguish between random pubbers whining because they just lost a game on their regular server, and people who actually know something about how the game plays out. The version has been out for almost a month now, and competitive gamers still haven't found a decent counter to SC, that doesn't involve unbelievably boring two-hive lockdown type strategies, or some sort of HA/JP turtle. Let me put it like this: SC first tactics are beatable, but harder to beat than say a DC or MC first strategy. The fact that these games are also extremely boring, and tend to last more than twice the amount of time a DC or MC game lasts (and we're not talking about your oh-so-holy epic games here, we're talking about drawn out games where the winner is a foregone conclusion after 5 minutes into the game, yet it still lasts 20-30 minutes) just makes it even worse. DC first being the common best way to go was pretty much accepted in competitive up until the version change, although there were some mumblings and ramblings (with good reason), because it was still fun, although you mostly did the same strategy every round. SC first games ARE NOT.
(if you bother replying to this with "oh but lol public games I play with SC first are hella fun for both teams" I'll just ignore you, ok).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think that part of the problem for competitive games is that when marines are faced with a first chamber Sensory, that they are still playing to 'win'. If it was me, I would instead change my tactics and play for a DRAW. The weakness of the SC is that it leaves the aliens vulnerable in the middle game. So instead of playing to win from the outset, play to draw - IE play a defensive game - and build on small gains instead of pushing for an early win.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
What a load of crock. "Still playing to win", "play for a draw"? What kind of rhetoric is this? Read Buggy's statement above, or some of the other replies by clanners, and you might actually start to realize what the cheese is going on here. This exact draw mentality is what most clans do to counter SC first now, and let me tell you, it's neither efficient nor fun.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I see aliens lose with SC on pubs all the time, and not with a team full of 'nubs' either. The 'winning strat' is out there, you just haven't found it yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's been a month, now. I would think that in the few houndred practice matches that have been played since then someone would've found a reliable counter if there was one. Read replies by Buggy, comrade, and other competitive players in various topic to realize why. And please, READ, don't just sit there thinking "lol what idiots, I know better than this!".
have you ever seen a good focus fade?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We had this VERY same issue way back when cloaking became inherent to the Sensory chamber. Aliens used it ALL the time and people cried about how overpowering it was. Fast forward a couple months and people were back to DMS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
that was a different situation. back then, sc's went from totally useless to "good because no-one knew how to fight them".
then focus arrived, and sc become useful, though still not as good as d/m.
now with 3.0 and the buffs, large in both volume and strenght, given to the alien team, the sc is horribly overpowered. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think that part of the problem for competitive games is that when marines are faced with a first chamber Sensory, that they are still playing to 'win'. If it was me, I would instead change my tactics and play for a DRAW. The weakness of the SC is that it leaves the aliens vulnerable in the middle game. So instead of playing to win from the outset, play to draw - IE play a defensive game - and build on small gains instead of pushing for an early win.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
marines are at their strongest very early in the game, and thats when you HAVE to push for nodes. if you stop and start playing defensively that second hive will go up, and your few (if any) nodes should suddenly be enough for jetpackers and a long battle. thats just not possible. besides, the sc has no middle-game weakness. sc helps to keep that second hive alive, and focus fade + lerks are just insane. especially since the marines do not have res for welders/obs'/armor upgrades/stupid amounts of medpacks. oh, and even if you manage to get all that, what are you going to kill the fades with? lvl1 lmg's? i think not.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I see aliens lose with SC on pubs all the time, and not with a team full of 'nubs' either. The 'winning strat' is out there, you just haven't found it yet.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
the next time you see an alien team losing with sc's, switch sides and see what kind of magic the marines are doing to win. and then, please come tell me.
It's all the whiners that are so set in their rut of defending against Defense first that can't manage to change their tactics.
Cloaking just means the Comm needs to actually use Sensor Sweep for more than a siege attack, and build Obs at mini-bases. Adapt or die. Those who can't adapt are the ones whining about Sensory being overpowered. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That's a really good post, makes me wonder if you play NS.
In pubs, the majority of players are not that smart. Even if you have a top ace comm, there will be no way to keep hold on your res nodes long enough to be able to build obs at minibases, or to scan. Sensory does remove the skill aspect when it comes to the skulk. Not to mention, even if you somehow did have enough res to do all of what you suggested, it would be insanly hard for a commander to keep scanning all the time, for all his different squads out there, while still dropping meds/guns/ammo/buildings and researching.
God guys, just adapt or die already. Stop whinning about sensory being overpowered.
(btw, Talesin, I'd love to see you comm and a game where aliens go sensory first and watch you try to "adapt") <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree with steve on this matter, and also, the obs energy has nowhere near enough energy to scan as much as you're saying Talesin. If the energy recharge rate or whatever its supposed to be called, was at a higher rate, OR if it costs res again, then it would be good, BUT, Sensory is probably the most overpowered chamber in the aspect that it has <b>2</b> passive bonuses, the cloaking when in range and All marines in range marked under scent of fear, I have countless ideas that might benifit this game, but I wont bother even chipping the iceburg with those, seeing as nothing will be implimented, as i'm probably seen as some forum trool pub noob or something, when none of my competitive experience is noticed, therefore i'm going to make a signature just for you Talesin. Thank you and good day.
The winning strat is a 2 hive lockdown. I simply refuse to play if that's the case because it's flipping boring. If you're naive enough to think that the best players in the world can't find a tactic to beat a chamber after a month then there's nothing I can do except maybe suggest you use your head. Thousands of practise matches have been played now, several high level tournaments have been played too, SC is only beaten if the aliens are stupid (ie teamUK style).
There is lots of winning strats. I´m a newbie comm and I have found others.
And in my opinion SC is my chamber of choice when dealing with aliens. I have played alien alot so I know where they put their SC chambers. Also, those chambers are open for attack leaving the aliens weakend everytime you take one out.
Weapon of choice is GL. Trade off for w2 (not needed with no DC aliens)
And if you play both teams often you know where the aliens will ambush you. Scan for the win and GL.
Mine everything (mines don´t care about cloaking).
In conclusion.
Tech for adv armory asap.
Whats the name of this game again....
Go google it.... tell me what you find out.......
Then quit whining and learn to do as the definition of the TITLE OF THIS GAME says......
P.S. Teamwork, Observatories, 2 Hive Lockdown's, SCANNING, Staying in groups, Being Cautious, Working Together ECT ECT ECT....
Yeah... u cant rambo anymore.... so DONT DO IT...
Yeah, u need constant scanning, so MAKE MORE THAN ONE OBSERVATORY
Yeah, the comm actually serves a purpose other than your med/ammo ****, so LISTEN TO HIM
Yeah, ur not invulnerable invisible super man with ur lmg anymore, SO DONT TRY AND BE....
The end
~Jason <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Soooo, let me get this straight, buffing cloaking had something to do with stopping ramboing? That blows me away if it has any truth to it. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
No it hasnt
But it should......
~Jason
Ironically the shoe seems to be on the other foot when we talk fades, the "blind NS supports" complain while the "top end players" say 'adapt'. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-fanatic+Mar 31 2005, 11:08 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (fanatic @ Mar 31 2005, 11:08 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->You need to learn to distinguish between random pubbers whining because they just lost a game on their regular server, and people who actually know something about how the game plays out. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->Collectively insulting the 90% of people who play NS on public servers certainly isn't helping your cause any. Believe it or not, many people who play on public servers are quite skilled. The fact they aren't part of a 'clan' does not diminish their skill or the validity of their opinions.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Let me put it like this: SC first tactics are beatable, but harder to beat than say a DC or MC first strategy.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->So why is this a problem? With every version that has been released, there has been one chamber that had an 'edge' over the other chambers. Prior to this it used to be the Defense chamber, and the DMS order became engraved in the collective minds of nearly everyone that played NS. The fact that the defense chamber was harder to beat (in past versions) didn't illicit the type of response we're seeing now, yet the same principle remains.
After years of DMS we have started to crack the cycle, only to have clanners complain because they don't like the way Sensory plays out. Why should we bother trying to make all the chambers viable? If competitive players dislike any balance that will topple DMS then there is no way we'll ever find a solution.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's been a month, now. I would think that in the few houndred practice matches that have been played since then someone would've found a reliable counter if there was one. Read replies by Buggy, comrade, and other competitive players in various topic to realize why. And please, READ, don't just sit there thinking "lol what idiots, I know better than this!".<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->I've never suggested that "I know better than this" with regard to competitive games, but I also know (from having played competitively) the kind of mindset that competitive players get in.
It doesn't matter what change comes into play, people are always looking for that one 'killer' strat that will give them the edge.
Here's a thought...
If competitive players like a challenge, and they don't like predictable chamber orders or games, then why don't we change NS so that in tournament mode the first chamber for the alien team is chosen at random by the server? The game then progresses with aliens trying to make the best of it, and marines not 'expecting' a given strat since first chamber is random.
In the end there is no way we can balance the game for pubs and competitive play. All the developers have said as much, and they have also said that compromises will need to be made. Until/unless this policy of 'one version' for pubs/clans changes, people are going to have to get used to the fact that some aspects of the game will play better/worse depending on whether it is a pub/clan game.
Regards,
Savant
All together now!:
<b><i>SCs are perfectly balanced, cloaking is a fun upgrade, SCs are perfectly balanced, cloaking is a fun upgrade.</i></b>
Hmm, I may need to go back and mess with font/size/color, we have a few strong disbelievers in this thread.
EDIT: I'd like to see savant, talesin and the other people who doubt the validity of our claims take up mu's challenge.
All together now!:
<b><i>SCs are perfectly balanced, cloaking is a fun upgrade, SCs are perfectly balanced, cloaking is a fun upgrade.</i></b>
Hmm, I may need to go back and mess with font/size/color, we have a few strong disbelievers in this thread. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sarcasm adds nothing. It could be just as easily said that some people are trying the same thing with the "We have adapted, you're just clueless" mantra. Perhaps being constructive might help more?
Personally, I do find cloaking to be a fun upgrade, whether on marine or alien. Then again, I don't really care whether I win or lose, but rather how much I get involved in the game, so maybe that's a difference. After all, if I wanted to feel like I was working, I'd actually work and make money while doing it.
At any rate, it's been a month, from what I've heard and what I can deduce from the changelog, I'm willing to concede that aliens are probably dominating in the clan-scene. Like buggy (buggeh? one of them, apologies for not remembering) though, I don't lay this at the feet of the sensory chamber at all, but rather at the way aliens were generally buffed and marines slightly nerfed in what was already a very balanced scene competitively.
This made one of the most fun chambers for aliens (c'mon.. who doesn't think being able to go "Boo!" is fun?) viable because aliens can survive with it. There might be some additional problems because clan games are decided so early (which I think is a problem in itself, but hey.. if that's the way they like to play..)
So, getting back to topic: The deal with sensory is that clan games are heavily weighted toward the early game, which is where aliens recieved their largest buffs and which is where the sensory chamber has the largest effect. Rather than change the weighting of the game, most of the folks protesting sensory would rather address the symptom they can easily see -- the sensory chamber.
However, in pubs, because team sizes are large, marines stand a decent chance of winning. The large team allows marines to cap res and lockdown the middle hive or 1 hive asap.
Once 1 hive is secure, they can proceed to the remaining vacant hive. As your team is large, you can afford 2-3 losses, and if you use scan, the marines will get there. Then you lock that hive down.
Get obs in both lock down hives.
Electrify expansion RTs.
Tech whatever you want.
That's the most reliable way I've found to win in pubs. But, as people have pointed out, this drags out the game and there does not seem to be any other efficient counter.
Still scratching my head for tourny though.
Sensory chamber is a viable first choice.
In every version since release, including this one, sensory first games (<b><i><u>regardless of outcome</u></i></b>) have in general been very boring and frustrating to play. For reasons stated earlier in this thread by various sources.