<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So long as you define 'experienced' as 'those that can think'. Even a newbie Comm (so long as they are new to the game) can adapt to sensory-first.
It's all the whiners that are so set in their rut of defending against Defense first that can't manage to change their tactics.
Cloaking just means the Comm needs to actually use Sensor Sweep for more than a siege attack, and build Obs at mini-bases. Adapt or die. Those who can't adapt are the ones whining about Sensory being overpowered.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering our sensory strat on a certain map conquered the best Marine CAL Team (IMO) ever yesterday. When usually when we use it they walk all over us. SOF + Cloak + Focus off just one chamber, used altogether at once its pretty damn invincible. Even with "mini bases" (woo for waste of res) it won't help. They tried Ob's around corners. And a lerk with SOF with Cloak constantly he never died and just spored them back easily.
Newbie comms have absolutly NO chance of ever winning and adapting EASILY against sensory. Unless the Marine team consists of the best damn Marines you can possibly field will the comm have slight chance of winning. The Comm won't win but the heavily experience Marine team (Lets take Terror as an example) will win just over pure strength and tactics against a pub alien team.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
So you're saying that people who constantly practice set strategies over and over until they've honed them for top-notch execution are quick to change?
<!--QuoteBegin-Talesin+Mar 31 2005, 01:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Mar 31 2005, 01:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So you're saying that people who constantly practice set strategies over and over until they've honed them for top-notch execution are quick to change? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i dont know where you got the idea that clanners never ever even try new strats, but youre wrong.
people who play competetively have always been the fastest to adapt to new versions. the same is the case here, except that even though people have adapted its still pretty damn hard to win against a good alien team with sc's.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then quit whining and learn to do as the definition of the TITLE OF THIS GAME says......
P.S. Teamwork, Observatories, 2 Hive Lockdown's, SCANNING, Staying in groups, Being Cautious, Working Together ECT ECT ECT.... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Terror - Always use TeamWork, Tried it, Couldn't get past the SOF/Cloaking/Focus Skulks with lerk support, Tried it, did it and still lost (Groups of 3-4 at times), did it by shoot walls when obs was out of energy, they always work together.
ChurchMeatshield grunt-fodder // Has pre-ordered NS2Join Date: 2002-12-31Member: 11646Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin-Talesin+Mar 31 2005, 01:29 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Mar 31 2005, 01:29 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So you're saying that people who constantly practice set strategies over and over until they've honed them for top-notch execution are quick to change? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> They can, especially if they're the ones who discovered the previous strategies. Clans find good strategies,a nd then pubbers copy eventually. That's the way goes. Talesin, do you comm often by any chance? Tell us about your comming experiences since 3.0f came out, excluding team stackage situations.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
edited March 2005
The only times I Comm nowadays is when I have a team of decent players, as in, will listen and obey... I ended up way too frustrated during the heyday of 2.0x ramboing, when my team would scatter in every direction, assuming the Comm only to be there for meds, ammo, RTs, and base defense.
Plus, (through sheer luck I'm sure), I'm one of the few who can say they have a perfect 100% win rate as Comm, when comming through the entirety (as in, not jumping in after someone else bails). <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> One of the few things I'm quite content to rest on my laurels about.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
I think people would be a lot more tolerant of cloaking if there were an individual marines counter to it. (e.g. A scanner).
Assuming it worked something like the scanner in CO mode, then you'd have both a weakness (kill the marine and kill their scanner) and a benefit (marines have a hard cloak counter & minimap benefits). At least then a marine team losing their scanner carrying buddy would know who to blame for lack of skill.
That would give the situation a little more strategy and ensure that scans could be saved for when they were needed. It would also be a new toy for the marines, who've been starved of goodies in the last release. (HG/Armour/Catpacks buff anyone?)
haha, half my clan were PTs and we tried creating new strats way before 3.0 was ever released and not one of the things we could pull off in a PT ever worked in a pcw.
<!--QuoteBegin-MrBen+Mar 31 2005, 03:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (MrBen @ Mar 31 2005, 03:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> haha, half my clan were PTs and we tried creating new strats way before 3.0 was ever released and not one of the things we could pull off in a PT ever worked in a pcw. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> haha ;D
<!--QuoteBegin-SDJason+Mar 31 2005, 01:28 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (SDJason @ Mar 31 2005, 01:28 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Im sorry to be blunt..... but
Whats the name of this game again....
Go google it.... tell me what you find out.......
Then quit whining and learn to do as the definition of the TITLE OF THIS GAME says......
P.S. Teamwork, Observatories, 2 Hive Lockdown's, SCANNING, Staying in groups, Being Cautious, Working Together ECT ECT ECT....
Yeah... u cant rambo anymore.... so DONT DO IT...
Yeah, u need constant scanning, so MAKE MORE THAN ONE OBSERVATORY
Yeah, the comm actually serves a purpose other than your med/ammo ****, so LISTEN TO HIM
Yeah, ur not invulnerable invisible super man with ur lmg anymore, SO DONT TRY AND BE....
The end
~Jason <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Soooo, let me get this straight, buffing cloaking had something to do with stopping ramboing? That blows me away if it has any truth to it.
Please move in a group, even though you can get picked off one by one by things you can't see or hear coming in one or two bites! Oh and when you regroup it's too late because there are fades and lerks along with the skulks because of lots of res for kills!! Just get more obs to scan more! Even though you need armor1 to not die in one focus bite, welders, meds to counter inevitable spore spam and the definately-get-one-bite cloaked skulks, an upgraded armory to kill higher lifeforms or to go proto, multiple observatories, phase tech, phases, nodes, rebuilt nodes which are continually being destroyed by skulks that have scent of fear so they never die and weapons to kill things
Only bad thing with cloaking is that it's so different from computer to computer. Generally the more crappier graphics card you have the easier it is to spot them.
I cant stand this crap on how easy it is to "spot" cloakers. Only possible way you'll ever spot is either, a) the area is scanned b) you already know theres some alien around so you stop and start looking around extremely well, (which eventually takes away ESSENTIAL gametime) c) the cloaker is moving too fast so that he isnt completely cloaked (now when i use the term completely cloaked, im meaning to full prosentual state of cloaked as you can get in this game) d) the cloaker is standing on res-node-steam or lerk-spores.
Now, what ever the mean is how you spot cloakers, i strongly suggest anyone of you to loose the word easy when talking about it. And could anyone of you please avoid the parts when you need to say "but i just pwnd on pubs sum cloakers and laik i saw them" or something towards that line. Cause if you do, your generalizing that your individual incident of you seeing cloakers and making it pretty darn ridiculous to suggest that it would have anything to do with cloakers on any other server.
Oh and to answer the original question on <b>"Why do so many people complain that cloaking takes the fun out of NS?"</b> CAUSE IT FRIGGIN DOES.
Oh and the other one <b>"that an invisible enemy sucks"</b> Being as constant pubber like most of us are, you tend to remember players by name to know on how good they play. And let me just say that its remarkable common to see the suckiest skulk ever score awhole alot of frags with cloaking. Its pretty hard to avoid making the conclusion "that the invisible enemy sucks".
Any changes of little bit of info about the new version PT's ? :o
Can i advice using headphones? a lot of time i heard a skulk walking sound, stopped started looking at the celing, noticing small movement... Sc is very deadly but at the same time fades need rege, and so does onos. sometimes its a struggle for the aliens to get the second hive.
Is fully cloaked skulk faster than normally moving marine? I mean if cloaked skulk is slower than marine then marines could outmanouver them.
But there is this resource tower building when you have to be stationary and choke points in map where you cannot move freely.
hmm... need new ideas <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Karampa+Mar 31 2005, 08:32 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Karampa @ Mar 31 2005, 08:32 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Is fully cloaked skulk faster than normally moving marine? I mean if cloaked skulk is slower than marine then marines could outmanouver them. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> no, that is why in 3.1 its highly likely that running/bhopping skulks will be totally cloaked.
j/k.
on a more serious note, the skulk can walk up to the marine (or wait cloaked somewhere) and start attacking when hes right next to the marine. and at that point the cloak has vanished, the skulk has bitten you twice before you (or the comm) have gotten a chance to react.
-Sound is a good way to spot cloaker as they like 'anal attack' <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->. But it when you don't check hiding place. -If you know the hiding spots, just shoot even if there is nothing. 2, 3 bullets to uncloak it.
-Cloakers bet on senso. If they fail the first steps. They die. That's all. Else they probably win as marins are getting late on everything (upgrades etc...). It's a bet : win/loose. In less than 2 minutes both side (Marins/alien) have the answer on who wins...
I must admit that marins still hava the upper hand and senso is still weak. Decent first chamber? well not to my opinion and i'm not the only one to think like that.
PS @Grendel: instead of a scan maybee a device... <span style='color:red'>*Link Nuked.* This suggestion post was previously locked.</span>
sens weak? nah. read what people have posted, watch demos (www.ampednews.com), just generally... educate yourself. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The lack of fun i got from playing againist sensory was one of the primary reasons for my decision to stop playing NS. Even when a team demonstrates exceptional teamwork it's exceptional difficult, if not impossible to beat a good alien team using sensory. A marines win vs sensory is directly linked to how fast you can turret farm two hives. In the case of teamUK vs teamFI: we didn't get our SCs up early enough and our scouting was poor so they got into the hive, the observatory, PG went up and mines went down in a very short period of time. TeamFI did what they had to do, but a -good- alien team would of stopped it.
If a two hive lockdown is what it takes to win againist sensory then I'd rather not play, long drawn out games are tedious and I'd rather saw my own arm off than sit around for 20 minutes on 3 rts teching for JPs.
Adapt. Want a perfect example? getting rid of mouse exceleration. It is the HARDEST **** ever =(. I've been off of it for one day so far, fighting uphill. All my friends say, "hey man, let's go enable Mouse Xceleration and spin-cap a few skulks" but I say, "hey man, I can't; It's a promise I made. I'll be your designated lerklifter, though.. I might run into some walls, but you'll get there... eventually..."
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Cloaking just means the Comm needs to actually use Sensor Sweep for more than a siege attack, and build Obs at mini-bases. Adapt or die. Those who can't adapt are the ones whining about Sensory being overpowered.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You have to realise that in an average pub game, you cannot rely on the comm at all. Thats including decent servers. If average pub comm couldnt counter something as straight forward as dc in beta5, what makes you think they will suddenly 'adapt' and beat sc?
Ive played tons of sc first games where the comm simply does not scan at all. What can you, as a marine, do in that situation?
Its a case of my enjoyment being dependant on how skilled a random player who decides to comm is.
At least when the comm sucked in the dc-first days, marines could still compete on some level with the aliens. You could get enjoyment out of the game, even if losing was inevitable.
At least when im alien and the team sucks, i can go higher lifeform and make a few kills and have some influence on the outcome of the game.
<!--QuoteBegin-Swift+Mar 31 2005, 08:56 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Swift @ Mar 31 2005, 08:56 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Adapt. Want a perfect example? getting rid of mouse exceleration. It is the HARDEST **** ever =(. I've been off of it for one day so far, fighting uphill. All my friends say, "hey man, let's go enable Mouse Xceleration and spin-cap a few skulks" but I say, "hey man, I can't; It's a promise I made. I'll be your designated lerklifter, though.. I might run into some walls, but you'll get there... eventually..." <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> what has this got to do with anything that has been discussed in this thread?
Rambos are the guys that die <i>first</i> in Sci-Fi action movies. They run around chasing after some random animal like a cat or a penguin with guns ablazing, then they bump into the big bad daddy alien hanging from the ceiling, who just taunts them for a sec. "Rarrr."
And then you see the Rambo grit his teeth, close his eyes, and pray for mercy. Ratatata CRUNCH.
Comments
It's all the whiners that are so set in their rut of defending against Defense first that can't manage to change their tactics.
Cloaking just means the Comm needs to actually use Sensor Sweep for more than a siege attack, and build Obs at mini-bases. Adapt or die. Those who can't adapt are the ones whining about Sensory being overpowered.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Considering our sensory strat on a certain map conquered the best Marine CAL Team (IMO) ever yesterday. When usually when we use it they walk all over us. SOF + Cloak + Focus off just one chamber, used altogether at once its pretty damn invincible. Even with "mini bases" (woo for waste of res) it won't help. They tried Ob's around corners. And a lerk with SOF with Cloak constantly he never died and just spored them back easily.
Newbie comms have absolutly NO chance of ever winning and adapting EASILY against sensory. Unless the Marine team consists of the best damn Marines you can possibly field will the comm have slight chance of winning. The Comm won't win but the heavily experience Marine team (Lets take Terror as an example) will win just over pure strength and tactics against a pub alien team.
Whats the name of this game again....
Go google it.... tell me what you find out.......
Then quit whining and learn to do as the definition of the TITLE OF THIS GAME says......
P.S. Teamwork, Observatories, 2 Hive Lockdown's, SCANNING, Staying in groups, Being Cautious, Working Together ECT ECT ECT....
Yeah... u cant rambo anymore.... so DONT DO IT...
Yeah, u need constant scanning, so MAKE MORE THAN ONE OBSERVATORY
Yeah, the comm actually serves a purpose other than your med/ammo ****, so LISTEN TO HIM
Yeah, ur not invulnerable invisible super man with ur lmg anymore, SO DONT TRY AND BE....
The end
~Jason
i dont know where you got the idea that clanners never ever even try new strats, but youre wrong.
people who play competetively have always been the fastest to adapt to new versions. the same is the case here, except that even though people have adapted its still pretty damn hard to win against a good alien team with sc's.
P.S. Teamwork, Observatories, 2 Hive Lockdown's, SCANNING, Staying in groups, Being Cautious, Working Together ECT ECT ECT....
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Terror - Always use TeamWork, Tried it, Couldn't get past the SOF/Cloaking/Focus Skulks with lerk support, Tried it, did it and still lost (Groups of 3-4 at times), did it by shoot walls when obs was out of energy, they always work together.
They can, especially if they're the ones who discovered the previous strategies. Clans find good strategies,a nd then pubbers copy eventually. That's the way goes. Talesin, do you comm often by any chance? Tell us about your comming experiences since 3.0f came out, excluding team stackage situations.
Plus, (through sheer luck I'm sure), I'm one of the few who can say they have a perfect 100% win rate as Comm, when comming through the entirety (as in, not jumping in after someone else bails). <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> One of the few things I'm quite content to rest on my laurels about.
Assuming it worked something like the scanner in CO mode, then you'd have both a weakness (kill the marine and kill their scanner) and a benefit (marines have a hard cloak counter & minimap benefits). At least then a marine team losing their scanner carrying buddy would know who to blame for lack of skill.
That would give the situation a little more strategy and ensure that scans could be saved for when they were needed. It would also be a new toy for the marines, who've been starved of goodies in the last release. (HG/Armour/Catpacks buff anyone?)
Just random thoughts.
haha ;D
Whats the name of this game again....
Go google it.... tell me what you find out.......
Then quit whining and learn to do as the definition of the TITLE OF THIS GAME says......
P.S. Teamwork, Observatories, 2 Hive Lockdown's, SCANNING, Staying in groups, Being Cautious, Working Together ECT ECT ECT....
Yeah... u cant rambo anymore.... so DONT DO IT...
Yeah, u need constant scanning, so MAKE MORE THAN ONE OBSERVATORY
Yeah, the comm actually serves a purpose other than your med/ammo ****, so LISTEN TO HIM
Yeah, ur not invulnerable invisible super man with ur lmg anymore, SO DONT TRY AND BE....
The end
~Jason <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Soooo, let me get this straight, buffing cloaking had something to do with stopping ramboing? That blows me away if it has any truth to it.
adapt or die noobs lol
there are criteria regarding the selection of commanders. <i>naturally</i>
a) the area is scanned
b) you already know theres some alien around so you stop and start looking around extremely well, (which eventually takes away ESSENTIAL gametime)
c) the cloaker is moving too fast so that he isnt completely cloaked (now when i use the term completely cloaked, im meaning to full prosentual state of cloaked as you can get in this game)
d) the cloaker is standing on res-node-steam or lerk-spores.
Now, what ever the mean is how you spot cloakers, i strongly suggest anyone of you to loose the word easy when talking about it. And could anyone of you please avoid the parts when you need to say "but i just pwnd on pubs sum cloakers and laik i saw them" or something towards that line. Cause if you do, your generalizing that your individual incident of you seeing cloakers and making it pretty darn ridiculous to suggest that it would have anything to do with cloakers on any other server.
Oh and to answer the original question on <b>"Why do so many people complain that cloaking takes the fun out of NS?"</b>
CAUSE IT FRIGGIN DOES.
Oh and the other one <b>"that an invisible enemy sucks"</b>
Being as constant pubber like most of us are, you tend to remember players by name to know on how good they play. And let me just say that its remarkable common to see the suckiest skulk ever score awhole alot of frags with cloaking.
Its pretty hard to avoid making the conclusion "that the invisible enemy sucks".
Any changes of little bit of info about the new version PT's ? :o
god damn i hate whiners -.-
now I will go kill clocked skulls
But there is this resource tower building when you have to be stationary and choke points in map where you cannot move freely.
hmm... need new ideas <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html/emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
no, that is why in 3.1 its highly likely that running/bhopping skulks will be totally cloaked.
j/k.
on a more serious note, the skulk can walk up to the marine (or wait cloaked somewhere) and start attacking when hes right next to the marine. and at that point the cloak has vanished, the skulk has bitten you twice before you (or the comm) have gotten a chance to react.
-If you know the hiding spots, just shoot even if there is nothing. 2, 3 bullets to uncloak it.
-Cloakers bet on senso. If they fail the first steps. They die. That's all. Else they probably win as marins are getting late on everything (upgrades etc...). It's a bet : win/loose. In less than 2 minutes both side (Marins/alien) have the answer on who wins...
I must admit that marins still hava the upper hand and senso is still weak. Decent first chamber? well not to my opinion and i'm not the only one to think like that.
PS @Grendel: instead of a scan maybee a device...
<span style='color:red'>*Link Nuked.* This suggestion post was previously locked.</span>
edit: btw, i disagree with your sig message.
If a two hive lockdown is what it takes to win againist sensory then I'd rather not play, long drawn out games are tedious and I'd rather saw my own arm off than sit around for 20 minutes on 3 rts teching for JPs.
You have to realise that in an average pub game, you cannot rely on the comm at all. Thats including decent servers. If average pub comm couldnt counter something as straight forward as dc in beta5, what makes you think they will suddenly 'adapt' and beat sc?
Ive played tons of sc first games where the comm simply does not scan at all. What can you, as a marine, do in that situation?
Its a case of my enjoyment being dependant on how skilled a random player who decides to comm is.
At least when the comm sucked in the dc-first days, marines could still compete on some level with the aliens. You could get enjoyment out of the game, even if losing was inevitable.
At least when im alien and the team sucks, i can go higher lifeform and make a few kills and have some influence on the outcome of the game.
what has this got to do with anything that has been discussed in this thread?
ive never used macceleration in my life.
They run around chasing after some random animal like a cat or a penguin with guns ablazing, then they bump into the big bad daddy alien hanging from the ceiling, who just taunts them for a sec. "Rarrr."
And then you see the Rambo grit his teeth, close his eyes, and pray for mercy. Ratatata CRUNCH.