Well, I personally don't have to worry about being drafted. Considering I'm flamboyantly homosexual and flatfooted.
But, eh. I think it's wrong for someone to be told how and when to die.
Plus, kids would have discipline and respect for authority and all the things the OP said if their god damn, mother ###### parents would actually act as PARENTS for their children instead of calling the police on them for, say, opening and playing a gift early.
Seriously, my grandpa was tough as nails, raised me like he was raised, and everyone that's met me has said I'm one of the best acting teenagers they've met. (Although, no one said anything about me being modest. Hee.). I was taught to NOT act like a little ######-ish. (If I did, I was spanked with the fury of god behind each blow.) I was told what I could and couldn't watch on TV. (I hated it as a kid, but I thank my parents every day for it now.) I was kept on a pretty strict diet as a kid. (EG: You can have four cookies today, but no more until tomorrow.)
I must say, I turned out very well. My brother was raised by my aunt and uncle in pretty much the same way and turned out just like me.
The fact of the matter: Military training may teach someone how to work as a team and everything, but it should be taught by parents before the military even has a chance to get to them. In a country dedicated to freedom and... democracy... (Heh...) we shouldn't be forced to serve in anything federal.
shank makes an interesting point there - by the time they would get drafted, the damage from negligent upbringing would be long done.
But the real issues are frustratingly complicated and convoluted. "Blame the parents" is becoming just as tired and cliched an argument as "video games made him do it." Playing the blame game will never lead anywhere, what we need to do is take action. But who should take that action? Always begin with yourself. But an individual has no power on his own, he needs to compel others to join his cause. But how the hell does he do that? And WHICH cause? Where is the effort needed? Which problems need pushing, and which will just fall like dominoes once the primary issue is resolved?
Everything is complicated and frustrating. And if you have found a simple solution, chances are that it's wrong. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
I don't feel that a high school graduate is mature enough or wise enough, in most cases, to make decisions regarding a lifetime career. Although they (or their parents) have decided what their major should be should they pursue higher education, or what trade they should practice should they work right out of high school, a 2 or 3 year military tour would give tham a chance to take a needed break and expand their horizons.
<a href="http://www.myfuture.com/beyond/jointhemilitary_all.html" target="_blank"><b>BEYOND HIGH SCHOOL - Joining The Military</b></a> <!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>What It Is</b>
Many of us think we know what Today's Military is all about, but if we had to explain it to someone who knew nothing, we'd probably sound rather clueless. The Military is more than wearing uniforms, surviving boot camp, or working together in a team.
The U.S. Military has seven major branches: the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard and their Reserve (part-time duty), the Air National Guard, and the Army National Guard. Though four years is common, your first active duty enlistment period can vary.
Today's Military is more computerized than ever, offering many more high-tech occupations than in the past. There are over 140 military occupations, enlisted and officer. To start to delve into all the U.S. Military offers, talk to a local recruiter or your high school counselor about how to contact a recruiter if you don't know.
<b>What You Get</b>
In Today's Military, you are constantly learning�as a student, an American, a team player, a friend, and as a human being. Few places can offer you such an education.
First off, you get a steady paycheck and a lot of extras such as free training in a job specialty, free medical and dental care, free gym and exercise facilities, free on-base housing (if available), and 30 days of vacation with pay. Then, after your tour of enlistment is over, you can collect up to $28,800 from the Montgomery GI Bill toward your education. There is also a range of other educational support programs.
Aside from all that, you are also playing an important role in something big and important in the world, something bigger than yourself. You will make friends for life, be a part of a community like no other community, and develop self-confidence and a strong sense of self. For most, the Military experience is something that sticks with you forever.
<b>What It Can Cost</b>
The cost is just a commitment of time. And you'll actually get paid while you do it. You actually make a decent salary in the Military when you remember that the Military helps pay for your major living expenses.
And it doesn't stop there. You can collect a bonus simply for joining, depending on the service you choose and your job specialty. Also, you should be able to save money during your tour of duty so that you have a nice financial cushion saved for yourself by the time you leave. And of course you get free job skill training. Military job training schools are usually top quality and many even offer college credits.
<b>Advantages</b>
If you want to participate on a team, learn job skills, earn money for education, and meet some challenges, the Military may be for you.
On occasion, you'll probably get more responsibility thrown your way than you thought was part of the bargain�such as driving a 40-ton tank, a 35-foot rescue boat, or a 1,000-foot aircraft carrier.
You'll become an incredible team player, something you can "sell" to employers in the civilian world. And you'll definitely gain confidence and skills along the way. There's also the chance to travel�in the USA and sometimes around the world. <b> Disadvantages</b>
The military is not for everyone. If you have a problem with authority, the Military is probably not the choice for you.
Not that people can't learn or change, but to be in the Military, you need to respect the authority of higher-ranking people, and trust that they are acting in your best interest. It is not something to take lightly.
There's also not a whole lot of wardrobe flexibility during the workday. You won't be able to wear jeans and a t-shirt on a Tuesday morning just because you happen to feel like it. But when you're off duty, you can slip back into your "civvies."
If you don't like to travel, that is also something to consider. Military units in all services can go on deployment away from homeports, bases, or airfields at any time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1587723:date=Dec 12 2006, 07:36 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Dec 12 2006, 07:36 PM) [snapback]1587723[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I don't feel that a high school graduate is mature enough or wise enough, in most cases, to make decisions regarding a lifetime career. Although they (or their parents) have decided what their major should be should they pursue higher education, or what trade they should practice should they work right out of high school, a 2 or 3 year military tour would give tham a chance to take a needed break and expand their horizons. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> But that's what life after high school is supposed to be, to expand one's horizons. Whether or not it is for the good is what life is all about. Life is about making those mistakes and learning from them. I know of people who changed their major in college because they thought they would like something, and then they found out how it really was and decided it was not for them. I know of people who fell on their ###### slacking, and now they are working at a shop n rob, trying to earn money to go back to school. I also know of people who were very immature in high school and now work at 8 to 5 jobs, earning a nice salary and have a family to go home to.
Yea, there are people who immature that graduate high school. Yes, the military can help change a man (I've seen it done). But, like my dad says, there are more ways to skin a cat. Just experiencing life can change a person as much as the military can. Shouldn't a person decide how they want to grow as a human being instead of a government?
But what do I know, I'm just an immature college kid. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
moultanoCreator of ns_shiva.Join Date: 2002-12-14Member: 10806Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, Reinforced - Shadow, WC 2013 - Gold, NS2 Community Developer, Pistachionauts
For every 10 irresponsible kids that it will shape up there will be 1 sharp, highly-motivated kid whose time it will waste and 1 creative, insightful kid whose spirit it will crush.
There's also the blind obedience taught by the military that I personally would have an issue with. At the hospital I received orders too, but orders such as "please bring patient so-and-so, ward so-and-so, room so-and-so to the x-ray department." That's an order that makes sense, and had I cared to investigate there would have been a good reason behind it (the patient recently broke his/her leg and they want to see how it's doing). That doesn't hold true for "drop and give me fifty you maggot!"
As someone who's active service military and sees more than his fair share of idiots and retards enlist because they've got nothing else, I have to say that mandatory service is a <i>bad</i> idea. Serving is a good idea if you've got no alternatives, or if you're really into the whole military "thing" (which most people only have a sense of from war movies and FPS's), and even then it's not right for everyone. People especially who are forced into service are more than likely to be bitter about it, and will probably perform at a lower level than those who are serving of their own volition. I really can't see mandatory service being any kind of a good idea, at least for America.
I say let the kids go to college, get an education, and <i>then</i> decide if they still want to do the military thing. At least after having learned how to critically analyze things they might be better able to weigh the benefits and risks against each other.
Switzerland, on the other hand, is something else all together.
And now that I think about it, the Veteran's Benefits Program would need a <i>serious</i> overhaul/revision due to the number of people going through the system. Mandatory service would create a mess for it that could throw a wrench in the whole program if not dealt with ahead of time.
People are people, regardless if they come from Sweden, Switzerland or any of the U.S..
The single thing I'm the most afraid of is precisely what Renegade said, that is is those who are "really into the whole military "thing"" that serves in the military. It's no wonder that when ranking different nations' miltaries in how well they perform during <i>peace keeping</i> missions fewer of the nations with a professional army rank high, as opposed to countries with a mandatory military service.
Professional armies are there for one thing - wageing war.
This idea has actually been in the back of my mind for a while now, and I think I'm going to have to lean in favor of it, albeit a slightly modified version.
all the dissenting opinions I read seemed to think that there was no choice involved in this sort of conscription. This does not necessarily have to be the case. The point of a policy such as this, I believe, is to instill a sense of national pride, or perhaps simply an understanding of ones place in something greater than yourself. That being said mandatory military service is definitely NOT the solve all solution. However, if you step it down one notch, create a policy of civil service, mandatory 2 years of civil service to the government, and we may(MAY!) see a better overall perception of the idea.
civil service does not have to be military in nature, though it can be. you could devote your 2 years however you like. Working on government projects, or hell, perhaps eliminate the "immediately after highschool" clause, because i certainly knew people who knew exactly what they wanted to do when they were 12. so let them go to college, get their degree, then contribute their civil service using their own expertise.
*shrugs* just a thought. military service is too restrictive I think, but the idea of mandatory public service I think is a good one.
<!--quoteo(post=1587957:date=Dec 13 2006, 06:22 AM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Dec 13 2006, 06:22 AM) [snapback]1587957[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->People are people, regardless if they come from Sweden, Switzerland or any of the U.S..<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's not about people, it's about culture, and last I checked, American culture has a spotty history regarding mandatory military service.
My take on that is that the American armies have been used for things the American people in general did not approve of, precisely the reason why I think conscripted armies should be used. Creating a professonal military was a brilliant solution for those who wanted to use the military for whatever reason they felt like as opposed to what they would probably otherwise get a mandate for - defense.
So you're right, the American culture has had a spotty record when it comes to the use to which conscripted armies have been put to. Hardly a problem except for those who want to continue to use the armies the same way.
<!--quoteo(post=1588100:date=Dec 13 2006, 02:23 PM:name=tjosan)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tjosan @ Dec 13 2006, 02:23 PM) [snapback]1588100[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> My take on that is that the American armies have been used for things the American people in general did not approve of, precisely the reason why I think conscripted armies should be used. Creating a professonal military was a brilliant solution for those who wanted to use the military for whatever reason they felt like as opposed to what they would probably otherwise get a mandate for - defense.
So you're right, the American culture has had a spotty record when it comes to the use to which conscripted armies have been put to. Hardly a problem except for those who want to continue to use the armies the same way. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'd love to see which history books you've been reading. Last I checked the majority of the conflicts we have been in have been more "approved" by us. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
My personal opinion, conscript armies are a failure in their regards as a effective fighting force, a good example of this is the South Korea's recruitment during the Korean Conflict. I believe we have reached the stage though in which we would no longer need a conscripted force for defense. But in times of defense a volunteer force has always stepped up. It's pretty simple logic.
<!--quoteo(post=1588524:date=Dec 14 2006, 08:23 PM:name=Lanfear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lanfear @ Dec 14 2006, 08:23 PM) [snapback]1588524[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I'd love to see which history books you've been reading. Last I checked the majority of the conflicts we have been in have been more "approved" by us. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" /> <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1588585:date=Dec 14 2006, 05:53 PM:name=Revlic)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Revlic @ Dec 14 2006, 05:53 PM) [snapback]1588585[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> My personal opinion, conscript armies are a failure in their regards as a effective fighting force, a good example of this is the South Korea's recruitment during the Korean Conflict. I believe we have reached the stage though in which we would no longer need a conscripted force for defense. But in times of defense a volunteer force has always stepped up. It's pretty simple logic. Everyone's a critic. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Regarding these forums, QFT!
I believe that joining the military is often character building, honorable, and a great service to a great nation.
However...
Mandatory. Do you know what that means? Do you have any comprehension of the word? Do you realize the transgression of personal liberty perpetrated by applying it to military service?
To suggest mandatory military service is to totally lack any appreciation for individuality and the existence of any human being who is different in kind from yourself. You do realize the concept of 'mandatory' would apply not only to you, that it would apply to everyone? I don't believe it is possible for you to comprehend it, and still suggest it. Think about it again.
Certainly anyone who forces me to kill under threat of criminal punishment is an enemy. They would have stripped me of my personal liberty. So guess what? If I were mandated to kill by my country, I would prefer to kill those who conspired to take away my freedom, even if they were U.S. armed forces. My friendly fire would not be so friendly.
<!--quoteo(post=1589398:date=Dec 16 2006, 08:40 PM:name=juice)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(juice @ Dec 16 2006, 08:40 PM) [snapback]1589398[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> I believe that joining the military is often character building, honorable, and a great service to a great nation.
However...
Mandatory. Do you know what that means? Do you have any comprehension of the word? Do you realize the transgression of personal liberty perpetrated by applying it to military service?
To suggest mandatory military service is to totally lack any appreciation for individuality and the existence of any human being who is different in kind from yourself. You do realize the concept of 'mandatory' would apply not only to you, that it would apply to everyone? I don't believe it is possible for you to comprehend it, and still suggest it. Think about it again.
Certainly anyone who forces me to kill under threat of criminal punishment is an enemy. They would have stripped me of my personal liberty. So guess what? If I were mandated to kill by my country, I would prefer to kill those who conspired to take away my freedom, even if they were U.S. armed forces. My friendly fire would not be so friendly. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Then why do so many countries mandate this then? If you'll re-read the thread many of them are mentioned.
Because they do not have the same qualms that juice has. Governments are capable of making wrong decisions, and have frequently done so. And BEFORE some pedant (you know who you are) comes and spouts his "there is no right or wrong" speech, I mean wrong in the eyes of their current population or in the eyes of future generations.
To use an analogy, if a guy in the street walks over to you, hands you a rifle, points at a man in the crowd and says "he's your enemy, shoot him," would that be acceptable? If not, why would it be different if your government did?
Or lets say you have the option of not taking part in combat operations directly, but taking on a supporting role instead. This would be comparable to the guy in the street saying "here, hold this door open while I go in and shoot this guy. Make sure the door stays open so I can get out quickly." Would that be better?
Now, I fully expect these analogies to come under attack. If so, please do me the favour of not just dismissing them outright - please explain why you think they are not applicable.
<!--quoteo(post=1589400:date=Dec 16 2006, 08:44 PM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Dec 16 2006, 08:44 PM) [snapback]1589400[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Then why do so many countries mandate this then? If you'll re-read the thread many of them are mentioned. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--quoteo(post=1589406:date=Dec 16 2006, 09:00 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Dec 16 2006, 09:00 PM) [snapback]1589406[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Because they do not have the same qualms that juice has. Governments are capable of making wrong decisions, and have frequently done so. And BEFORE some pedant (you know who you are) comes and spouts his "there is no right or wrong" speech, I mean wrong in the eyes of their current population or in the eyes of future generations. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Many of the countries that mandate military service have done so successfully though, so it doesn't seem any "wrong" decisions were made there.
<!--quoteo(post=1587628:date=Dec 12 2006, 01:23 PM:name=Zig)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Zig @ Dec 12 2006, 01:23 PM) [snapback]1587628[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Friendly fire results from the unfortunate errors made by hardworking servicemen, and otherwise unavoidable circumstance .<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I was implying that mandatory service (especially of those unwilling) will increase the chances that someone will realize that they have a gun and line of sight to their CO.
The freedom you think you'd be giving up by serving in the military was made possible by soldiers who died on foreign soil fighting for it. Ironic, eh?
<!--quoteo(post=1589417:date=Dec 16 2006, 10:04 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Dec 16 2006, 10:04 PM) [snapback]1589417[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> By that reasoning slavery isn't wrong either since it leads to prosperity. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> And this means that drug-dealing isn't wrong either? LOL ... silly analogy. <img src="http://www.nsmod.org/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
Silly analogy indeed, but may I point out that it was made in reference to YOUR argument that mandatory military service is a good thing since it "works."
I don't know if I pointed this out already, but in Germany's case, it doesn't work at all. It doesn't output capable <strike>cannon fodder</strike> soldiers, and it wastes a lot of tax euros.
And as for freedom through warfare: If freedom can only be achieved through the subjugation of others, it isn't freedom at all.
<!--quoteo(post=1589482:date=Dec 17 2006, 06:30 AM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Dec 17 2006, 06:30 AM) [snapback]1589482[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Silly analogy indeed, but may I point out that it was made in reference to YOUR argument that mandatory military service is a good thing since it "works."
I don't know if I pointed this out already, but in Germany's case, it doesn't work at all. It doesn't output capable <strike>cannon fodder</strike> soldiers, and it wastes a lot of tax euros.
And as for freedom through warfare: If freedom can only be achieved through the subjugation of others, it isn't freedom at all. <!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd--> Since you mentioned Germany specifically, I'll do some research on their system since this is the first I've heard a negative comment regarding this.
Freedom comes at a price. My father fought for it, as did his father and his grandfather. Unfortunately lives are lost in the process, but it remains a price we must pay. Your ability to post freely on these very forums came as a result of our forefathers fighting for our freedom.
I don't really see how the Vietnam war, for instance, made these forums possible, and how not fighting it would have made any difference in this regard.
<!--quoteo(post=1589491:date=Dec 17 2006, 08:12 AM:name=Depot)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Depot @ Dec 17 2006, 08:12 AM) [snapback]1589491[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--> Seems quite a few countries have mandatory military service:
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Might as well just post the wiki link eh ? <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription" target="_blank">Wiki</a>
Comments
But, eh. I think it's wrong for someone to be told how and when to die.
Plus, kids would have discipline and respect for authority and all the things the OP said if their god damn, mother ###### parents would actually act as PARENTS for their children instead of calling the police on them for, say, opening and playing a gift early.
Seriously, my grandpa was tough as nails, raised me like he was raised, and everyone that's met me has said I'm one of the best acting teenagers they've met. (Although, no one said anything about me being modest. Hee.). I was taught to NOT act like a little ######-ish. (If I did, I was spanked with the fury of god behind each blow.) I was told what I could and couldn't watch on TV. (I hated it as a kid, but I thank my parents every day for it now.) I was kept on a pretty strict diet as a kid. (EG: You can have four cookies today, but no more until tomorrow.)
I must say, I turned out very well. My brother was raised by my aunt and uncle in pretty much the same way and turned out just like me.
The fact of the matter: Military training may teach someone how to work as a team and everything, but it should be taught by parents before the military even has a chance to get to them. In a country dedicated to freedom and... democracy... (Heh...) we shouldn't be forced to serve in anything federal.
But the real issues are frustratingly complicated and convoluted. "Blame the parents" is becoming just as tired and cliched an argument as "video games made him do it." Playing the blame game will never lead anywhere, what we need to do is take action. But who should take that action? Always begin with yourself. But an individual has no power on his own, he needs to compel others to join his cause. But how the hell does he do that? And WHICH cause? Where is the effort needed? Which problems need pushing, and which will just fall like dominoes once the primary issue is resolved?
Everything is complicated and frustrating. And if you have found a simple solution, chances are that it's wrong. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/sad-fix.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":(" border="0" alt="sad-fix.gif" />
<a href="http://www.myfuture.com/beyond/jointhemilitary_all.html" target="_blank"><b>BEYOND HIGH SCHOOL - Joining The Military</b></a>
<!--quoteo--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec--><b>What It Is</b>
Many of us think we know what Today's Military is all about, but if we had to explain it to someone who knew nothing, we'd probably sound rather clueless. The Military is more than wearing uniforms, surviving boot camp, or working together in a team.
The U.S. Military has seven major branches: the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps, Coast Guard and their Reserve (part-time duty), the Air National Guard, and the Army National Guard. Though four years is common, your first active duty enlistment period can vary.
Today's Military is more computerized than ever, offering many more high-tech occupations than in the past. There are over 140 military occupations, enlisted and officer. To start to delve into all the U.S. Military offers, talk to a local recruiter or your high school counselor about how to contact a recruiter if you don't know.
<b>What You Get</b>
In Today's Military, you are constantly learning�as a student, an American, a team player, a friend, and as a human being. Few places can offer you such an education.
First off, you get a steady paycheck and a lot of extras such as free training in a job specialty, free medical and dental care, free gym and exercise facilities, free on-base housing (if available), and 30 days of vacation with pay. Then, after your tour of enlistment is over, you can collect up to $28,800 from the Montgomery GI Bill toward your education. There is also a range of other educational support programs.
Aside from all that, you are also playing an important role in something big and important in the world, something bigger than yourself. You will make friends for life, be a part of a community like no other community, and develop self-confidence and a strong sense of self. For most, the Military experience is something that sticks with you forever.
<b>What It Can Cost</b>
The cost is just a commitment of time. And you'll actually get paid while you do it. You actually make a decent salary in the Military when you remember that the Military helps pay for your major living expenses.
And it doesn't stop there. You can collect a bonus simply for joining, depending on the service you choose and your job specialty. Also, you should be able to save money during your tour of duty so that you have a nice financial cushion saved for yourself by the time you leave. And of course you get free job skill training. Military job training schools are usually top quality and many even offer college credits.
<b>Advantages</b>
If you want to participate on a team, learn job skills, earn money for education, and meet some challenges, the Military may be for you.
On occasion, you'll probably get more responsibility thrown your way than you thought was part of the bargain�such as driving a 40-ton tank, a 35-foot rescue boat, or a 1,000-foot aircraft carrier.
You'll become an incredible team player, something you can "sell" to employers in the civilian world. And you'll definitely gain confidence and skills along the way. There's also the chance to travel�in the USA and sometimes around the world.
<b>
Disadvantages</b>
The military is not for everyone. If you have a problem with authority, the Military is probably not the choice for you.
Not that people can't learn or change, but to be in the Military, you need to respect the authority of higher-ranking people, and trust that they are acting in your best interest. It is not something to take lightly.
There's also not a whole lot of wardrobe flexibility during the workday. You won't be able to wear jeans and a t-shirt on a Tuesday morning just because you happen to feel like it. But when you're off duty, you can slip back into your "civvies."
If you don't like to travel, that is also something to consider. Military units in all services can go on deployment away from homeports, bases, or airfields at any time.<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't feel that a high school graduate is mature enough or wise enough, in most cases, to make decisions regarding a lifetime career. Although they (or their parents) have decided what their major should be should they pursue higher education, or what trade they should practice should they work right out of high school, a 2 or 3 year military tour would give tham a chance to take a needed break and expand their horizons.
<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->
But that's what life after high school is supposed to be, to expand one's horizons. Whether or not it is for the good is what life is all about. Life is about making those mistakes and learning from them. I know of people who changed their major in college because they thought they would like something, and then they found out how it really was and decided it was not for them. I know of people who fell on their ###### slacking, and now they are working at a shop n rob, trying to earn money to go back to school. I also know of people who were very immature in high school and now work at 8 to 5 jobs, earning a nice salary and have a family to go home to.
Yea, there are people who immature that graduate high school. Yes, the military can help change a man (I've seen it done). But, like my dad says, there are more ways to skin a cat. Just experiencing life can change a person as much as the military can. Shouldn't a person decide how they want to grow as a human being instead of a government?
But what do I know, I'm just an immature college kid. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
I don't think that's a good tradeoff.
I say let the kids go to college, get an education, and <i>then</i> decide if they still want to do the military thing. At least after having learned how to critically analyze things they might be better able to weigh the benefits and risks against each other.
Switzerland, on the other hand, is something else all together.
And now that I think about it, the Veteran's Benefits Program would need a <i>serious</i> overhaul/revision due to the number of people going through the system. Mandatory service would create a mess for it that could throw a wrench in the whole program if not dealt with ahead of time.
So, yeah, bad.
The single thing I'm the most afraid of is precisely what Renegade said, that is is those who are "really into the whole military "thing"" that serves in the military. It's no wonder that when ranking different nations' miltaries in how well they perform during <i>peace keeping</i> missions fewer of the nations with a professional army rank high, as opposed to countries with a mandatory military service.
Professional armies are there for one thing - wageing war.
all the dissenting opinions I read seemed to think that there was no choice involved in this sort of conscription. This does not necessarily have to be the case. The point of a policy such as this, I believe, is to instill a sense of national pride, or perhaps simply an understanding of ones place in something greater than yourself. That being said mandatory military service is definitely NOT the solve all solution. However, if you step it down one notch, create a policy of civil service, mandatory 2 years of civil service to the government, and we may(MAY!) see a better overall perception of the idea.
civil service does not have to be military in nature, though it can be. you could devote your 2 years however you like. Working on government projects, or hell, perhaps eliminate the "immediately after highschool" clause, because i certainly knew people who knew exactly what they wanted to do when they were 12. so let them go to college, get their degree, then contribute their civil service using their own expertise.
*shrugs* just a thought. military service is too restrictive I think, but the idea of mandatory public service I think is a good one.
It's not about people, it's about culture, and last I checked, American culture has a spotty history regarding mandatory military service.
So you're right, the American culture has had a spotty record when it comes to the use to which conscripted armies have been put to. Hardly a problem except for those who want to continue to use the armies the same way.
My take on that is that the American armies have been used for things the American people in general did not approve of, precisely the reason why I think conscripted armies should be used. Creating a professonal military was a brilliant solution for those who wanted to use the military for whatever reason they felt like as opposed to what they would probably otherwise get a mandate for - defense.
So you're right, the American culture has had a spotty record when it comes to the use to which conscripted armies have been put to. Hardly a problem except for those who want to continue to use the armies the same way.
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I'd love to see which history books you've been reading. Last I checked the majority of the conflicts we have been in have been more "approved" by us. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
<!--quoteo(post=1588524:date=Dec 14 2006, 08:23 PM:name=Lanfear)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Lanfear @ Dec 14 2006, 08:23 PM) [snapback]1588524[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
I'd love to see which history books you've been reading. Last I checked the majority of the conflicts we have been in have been more "approved" by us. <img src="style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/tounge.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=":p" border="0" alt="tounge.gif" />
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Everyone's a critic.
Everyone's a critic.
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Critic or not, that is a massively misleading statement, as in false.
My personal opinion, conscript armies are a failure in their regards as a effective fighting force, a good example of this is the South Korea's recruitment during the Korean Conflict. I believe we have reached the stage though in which we would no longer need a conscripted force for defense. But in times of defense a volunteer force has always stepped up. It's pretty simple logic.
Everyone's a critic.
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Regarding these forums, QFT!
However...
Mandatory. Do you know what that means? Do you have any comprehension of the word? Do you realize the transgression of personal liberty perpetrated by applying it to military service?
To suggest mandatory military service is to totally lack any appreciation for individuality and the existence of any human being who is different in kind from yourself. You do realize the concept of 'mandatory' would apply not only to you, that it would apply to everyone? I don't believe it is possible for you to comprehend it, and still suggest it. Think about it again.
Certainly anyone who forces me to kill under threat of criminal punishment is an enemy. They would have stripped me of my personal liberty. So guess what? If I were mandated to kill by my country, I would prefer to kill those who conspired to take away my freedom, even if they were U.S. armed forces. My friendly fire would not be so friendly.
I believe that joining the military is often character building, honorable, and a great service to a great nation.
However...
Mandatory. Do you know what that means? Do you have any comprehension of the word? Do you realize the transgression of personal liberty perpetrated by applying it to military service?
To suggest mandatory military service is to totally lack any appreciation for individuality and the existence of any human being who is different in kind from yourself. You do realize the concept of 'mandatory' would apply not only to you, that it would apply to everyone? I don't believe it is possible for you to comprehend it, and still suggest it. Think about it again.
Certainly anyone who forces me to kill under threat of criminal punishment is an enemy. They would have stripped me of my personal liberty. So guess what? If I were mandated to kill by my country, I would prefer to kill those who conspired to take away my freedom, even if they were U.S. armed forces. My friendly fire would not be so friendly.
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Then why do so many countries mandate this then? If you'll re-read the thread many of them are mentioned.
To use an analogy, if a guy in the street walks over to you, hands you a rifle, points at a man in the crowd and says "he's your enemy, shoot him," would that be acceptable? If not, why would it be different if your government did?
Or lets say you have the option of not taking part in combat operations directly, but taking on a supporting role instead. This would be comparable to the guy in the street saying "here, hold this door open while I go in and shoot this guy. Make sure the door stays open so I can get out quickly." Would that be better?
Now, I fully expect these analogies to come under attack. If so, please do me the favour of not just dismissing them outright - please explain why you think they are not applicable.
Then why do so many countries mandate this then? If you'll re-read the thread many of them are mentioned.
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An argument by majority? Really? Seriously?
Because they do not have the same qualms that juice has. Governments are capable of making wrong decisions, and have frequently done so. And BEFORE some pedant (you know who you are) comes and spouts his "there is no right or wrong" speech, I mean wrong in the eyes of their current population or in the eyes of future generations.
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Many of the countries that mandate military service have done so successfully though, so it doesn't seem any "wrong" decisions were made there.
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I was implying that mandatory service (especially of those unwilling) will increase the chances that someone will realize that they have a gun and line of sight to their CO.
<!--quoteo(post=1589417:date=Dec 16 2006, 10:04 PM:name=lolfighter)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(lolfighter @ Dec 16 2006, 10:04 PM) [snapback]1589417[/snapback]</div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->
By that reasoning slavery isn't wrong either since it leads to prosperity.
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And this means that drug-dealing isn't wrong either? LOL ... silly analogy. <img src="http://www.nsmod.org/forums/style_emoticons/default/rolleyes.gif" border="0" alt="IPB Image" />
I don't know if I pointed this out already, but in Germany's case, it doesn't work at all. It doesn't output capable <strike>cannon fodder</strike> soldiers, and it wastes a lot of tax euros.
And as for freedom through warfare: If freedom can only be achieved through the subjugation of others, it isn't freedom at all.
Silly analogy indeed, but may I point out that it was made in reference to YOUR argument that mandatory military service is a good thing since it "works."
I don't know if I pointed this out already, but in Germany's case, it doesn't work at all. It doesn't output capable <strike>cannon fodder</strike> soldiers, and it wastes a lot of tax euros.
And as for freedom through warfare: If freedom can only be achieved through the subjugation of others, it isn't freedom at all.
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Since you mentioned Germany specifically, I'll do some research on their system since this is the first I've heard a negative comment regarding this.
Freedom comes at a price. My father fought for it, as did his father and his grandfather. Unfortunately lives are lost in the process, but it remains a price we must pay. Your ability to post freely on these very forums came as a result of our forefathers fighting for our freedom.
1 Austria
2 Belarus
3 Bermuda
4 Brazil
5 Bulgaria
6 Chile
7 China (PRC)
8 Croatia
9 Cyprus
10 Denmark
11 Egypt
12 Eritrea
13 Finland
14 Germany
15 Greece
16 Iran
17 Israel
18 Korea, South
19 Lebanon
20 Malaysia
21 Mexico
22 Norway
23 Poland
24 Russia
25 Serbia and Montenegro
26 Singapore
27 Sweden
28 Switzerland
29 Taiwan (ROC)
30 Turkey
31 Ukraine
Seems quite a few countries have mandatory military service:
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Might as well just post the wiki link eh ? <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conscription" target="_blank">Wiki</a>