I'm with the idea of bringing back the old MS-main aft route, but with leaving the revolving door there. Just make it look blasted where the "Outer lock open" is and make that the passageway, a bit like the blasted door in MS.
As for engine i had a quick idea of moving it about between observation bridge and water treatment and then maybe switch it around. The big up-opening Main aft door would a have some stairs going down to it and the side entrance you're thinking of would lead to an elevator behind the (currently) closed door in the main aft corridor, the one right next to EM drill shaft and the elevator leading to water treatment. I dont know if that would solve any problem at all but probably would bring the layout closer to the original bast and remove the need of the docking storage route.
<!--QuoteBegin-Flying-Bastard+Sep 10 2004, 03:22 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Flying-Bastard @ Sep 10 2004, 03:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm with the idea of bringing back the old MS-main aft route, but with leaving the revolving door there. Just make it look blasted where the "Outer lock open" is and make that the passageway, a bit like the blasted door in MS. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is being considered... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Engine... well, I'll wait a bit more before I start working on that issue...
Refinery's just a huge room and needs to be cut up. Those walkways just below the ceiling with enough room for a marine to crouch on were nice. Skulks can hang around up there, Lerks can gas (although it's a poor substitute for SPIKES!25) and it gives the aliens a chance to whack the JP from behind when he's resting.
It's also not so much that it was so high, but so long and.. empty. Now that the res node's gone, that entire half of the room is useless. It's probably a worse place to relocate for Marines than right under the Hive now (aliens just climb up the wall from Feed, turrets don't get enough fire-time)
So, it's a refinery. It refines things. Where does it all go? Where's the fuel for the giant furnace? It could seriously use some crates stacked about, or some broken pipes under those big vats that reach all the way to the floor. Something for the aliens to spawn behind and skitter around instead of being blasted by marines that have the advantage of range everytime they spawn.
Dare I say it.. -lava?- Just look at Furnace hive on Origin.
The res node next to tram tunnel is a pain in the *ss for the aliens. The marines can easily relocate there, and keep control of both refinery and feed pretty easy.
I also don't like that engine is so close from mstart, it's too easy to do ip rush there. The 3rd thing is that the passage from engine to ref is ugly. It looks just as it would have been glued together. You definitively need to re-design that part. There are many ns maps, which looks like two different maps in the different sides of the map, and the areas smootly convert between. This isn't the case with the engine-ref area in bast. The word <b>glued together</b> describes the problem best I think.
If you are going to change refinery, then please don't lose the refinery ramp (from tram tunnel). It's wery easy for aliens to defend refinery (from low tech marines) because of that ramp. (do a couple of oc's on the top of the ramp, and with a gorge or two, you need at least four marines to broke that). You could also add some pipes to the roof of refinery. Personally, I think that the refinery is one of the best places in ns. It's a lerks dream, gorges heaven and nightmare of single marine.
EDIT: As somebody else said, I loved the feeling in 1.04 because of the weldables. It's so cool (yes, just watched Aliens) to be able to seal an entire area by welding some vent or door. Yes, it itsn't fair for aliens, but <b>yes, it's so freaking cool to marines</b>. Please add more weldables to the map. If it helps marines, then add some alien friendly areas to the map. It can't be easy to make the map balanced because of weldables, but I think it's worth it! =)
EDIT 2: About the part with adding some pipes to the roof of refinery. If you do add them, add then just to make it easier for skulks to hide between them. There must be a way for a skulk to easily travel on the roof across ref. Just add some small things to the roof so one can hide in the shadows of them, but don't make it impossible to move on the roof for skulks.
After reading this thread i'm quite torn. The sort of comments we're getting about refinery are the exact things we were getting about the rotating door and the lift in MS. Given the reception these changes have recieved and how everyone feels we've destroyed the maps soul i don't think that changing a room like refinery would be a good idea.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mr.Ben+Sep 11 2004, 05:50 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mr.Ben @ Sep 11 2004, 05:50 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> After reading this thread i'm quite torn. The sort of comments we're getting about refinery are the exact things we were getting about the rotating door and the lift in MS. Given the reception these changes have recieved and how everyone feels we've destroyed the maps soul i don't think that changing a room like refinery would be a good idea. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You know it MrBen. Hands off.
refinery is one of the better parts of bast, the only thing i could suggest would be to add some sort of cover for skulks as its waaay marine biased as they can snipe spawning skulks from miles away, boxes would be out of place but maybe some pipes or lava (well, molten metal really, but lava looks the same <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->) could go some way to making it easier for spawning skulks aswell as giving them cover for ambusing marines.
However i do agree that the majority of work should be done on engine hive and that quarter of the map to make it take longer for rines to get there and to make it feel like its part of bast (atm the new path from ms > engine hive just doesnt feel like it fits, cant really explain it but it just feels odd.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mendasp+Sep 4 2004, 11:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendasp @ Sep 4 2004, 11:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So far I've only heard about the engine being a 20 second run from MS, aside from that, I'd like to know what you think about the new bast (specially about the lighting changes).
For Beta 6 I want to "fix" the problems with refinery, which is going to be a pain in the ****. Any suggestions about this would be great.
You can tell me about bugs in bast in this thread, too. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> You know when Child Services takes a kid away from a family for abuse...? Well, you're the parents <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ...
<!--QuoteBegin-N1Rampage+Sep 12 2004, 04:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (N1Rampage @ Sep 12 2004, 04:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Mendasp+Sep 4 2004, 11:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendasp @ Sep 4 2004, 11:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So far I've only heard about the engine being a 20 second run from MS, aside from that, I'd like to know what you think about the new bast (specially about the lighting changes).
For Beta 6 I want to "fix" the problems with refinery, which is going to be a pain in the ****. Any suggestions about this would be great.
You can tell me about bugs in bast in this thread, too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know when Child Services takes a kid away from a family for abuse...? Well, you're the parents <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know when people post useless crap in feedback threads? Awesome, right?
Edit: I assume you didn't even read the thread, why would you do that when you can insult the hard work of other people? I don't think you're even going to read this again, but I'd like to say that you're an idiot <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Mendasp+Sep 12 2004, 05:17 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendasp @ Sep 12 2004, 05:17 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin-N1Rampage+Sep 12 2004, 04:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (N1Rampage @ Sep 12 2004, 04:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Mendasp+Sep 4 2004, 11:23 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendasp @ Sep 4 2004, 11:23 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> So far I've only heard about the engine being a 20 second run from MS, aside from that, I'd like to know what you think about the new bast (specially about the lighting changes).
For Beta 6 I want to "fix" the problems with refinery, which is going to be a pain in the ****. Any suggestions about this would be great.
You can tell me about bugs in bast in this thread, too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know when Child Services takes a kid away from a family for abuse...? Well, you're the parents <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You know when people post useless crap in feedback threads? Awesome, right?
Edit: I assume you didn't even read the thread, why would you do that when you can insult the hard work of other people? I don't think you're even going to read this again, but I'd like to say that you're an idiot <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <b><i><u>ICEBURN!!!</u></i></b>
For refinery: The main problems are that 1. It's too damn big, and a JP heaven 2. It has no decent cover for spawning skulks 3. It's possible to shoot down the hive from the other side of the room (even from the ramp)
It needs cover added for spawners without turning it into the NS plague of yet-another-room-full-of-boxes. Idea: add more pipes (at least it fits the theme of the room). A lot more pipes. Like the pipes at the far end that pass over the ramped entrance. But make them just high enough for a skulk to run underneath. (Yet not so big that marines can't jump over them, obviously) Maybe making them run in groups of two or three in some places, allowing skulks places to run to immediately when they spawn so they're not camped to their doom. Have the pipes go vertical in some areas as well, to making jetpacking a little less superior in the room. Don't underestimate the advantage of some hanging illusionary infestation for giving skulks places to ambush from.
Then, as was suggested earlier, hollow out one of the large silo-like metal cylinders and stick the hive in that, with holes to view it through. Just make sure that it's not too easy for a marine to jump inside and run around in there shooting the hive down. Maybe give it no floor, so they have to actually stand under it and stare up to shoot it down. While the skulks bite their ankles and they trip over pipes trying to run away. Not so marine friendly now, eh?
<!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Sep 12 2004, 06:49 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Sep 12 2004, 06:49 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> blah blah blah <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> i agree with bob on this, its a good solution to the ref problem.
There are a few maps in which is possible to kill the hive from outside the hive room. I don't believe this should ever be possible. There's one which even allows direct fire from far away to kill the hive (not needing to bounce nades or anything).
Omg, -yes.- Weldables. More, more, more. The ability to change the map while you play is awesome and really adds something to the game. It changes strategies, especially if aliens can go around and open them again after you've welded them. You never know if the end of that vent is open or closed, you've just got to hope some Skulk had the courtesy to run around and open it for you after those pesky HAs closed it.
I was playing some regular ns map. Not sure if it's standard or custom.. but it was -full- of weldables. I opened the map and there had to be ATLEAST 10. I got a welder and could have spent five minutes just running around and welding everything. 'twas awesome. Every map needs more weldables!
I'm gonna write a more benificial reply soon, detailing another point of view to consider, but for now, I believe the best way to figure out how to solve your refinery issue, would be to copy refinery hive into a .map file, and give it to five of your trusted mappers. I know people don't like giving out their map sources incase people rip them off or something, but I know you've got a lot of friends in #nsmapping, so I'm sure you wouldn't have any problems there.
Just, if you got five different people to change it and give you their take on it in their style, you could then work on translating that back to bast in the bast style.
Like, for instance, if you gave the source to PS_Mouse, you'd probably come back with complex architecture and a more 'dam-facility' feeling. Give it to KFDM, and you'll end up with no lights left <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> Nah, you'd get a more altair feeling. That would be their take, but with each one you'd gain more ideas on how to 'fix' the issues with refinery.
Would be interesting to say the least, if you do trust five people enough, I'd encourage you to try it. If nothing it'll give these people more of an insight into what refinery could become =)
Im no mapper and I dont know what you have available to you. But for ref, Im just going to suggest you add a LOT more infestation. Make it hell to see the approaching skulks, lerks, and bladed jesus's. Add more obstructions in the upper area to make it hard for jp'ers to manuver in there. Finally, cover up the hive a bit more so they have to go really close in order to damage it. Mr. Ben did a pretty good job for feedwater and the bits he added to ref, Im pretty sure hes capable of making these additions while making it look good.
I doubt people will complain if you fix ref by adding to it.
Guess I'll be the person to do the "wild and somewhat dopey changes" image.
I'll make this short and to the point, as there's already enough long posts in this thread.
I love bast, was the first map I ever saw of NS. I remember sitting in spectator mode watching the marines setup some turrets in 1.03, was pretty cool. I love the changes being made to it, and have some somewhat dodgy suggestions to make.
One thing to note: Since I saw the new bast, I've always been a fan of converting Main Aft into a double res. Dunno why, just think it'd be cool =)
There's the dodgy image. Probably makes a little sense, but generally not much.
I'll just chuck down the numbers and what the changes mean. Changes are the whole thing won't get done, as it's probably too extensive, though a couple would be nice.
1: Spin tram tunnel 90 degrees and make two maintenance entrances off it going to feedwater. Always disliked the tram tunnel as aliens, way too much open space to even hope to kill marines. The new changes with the vents are alright for skulks and lerks, but still the big aliens need a safer route.
2: Feedwater hive. Exactly the same as it is now, except it has another exit to tram tunnel on the opposite side of the first.
3: New path and room with a res node connecting to an elevator (the dodgy circle bit, explained below) that leads to main aft.
4: Atmospheric processing. One res node removed, one remains.
5: Marine start. Remember where the old vent used to be with the door? I thought replacing that with a duel ramp leading to bast reception would be a cool way to integrate the new parts. Alternatively, you could put a cargo lift there. Either way, it seems stupid to have a docking bay and no reception o.O
Ascii art is useless, but my hammer skills aren't that great, so I'm using it. This'll be a birds eye view. Basically B and X are the two ramps, one goes up half the distance, and you hit P (platform) then you walk along and go the rest of the distance up ramp X. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
XXXXXXPPP XXXXXXPPP BBBBBBPPP BBBBBBPPP
6: Reception! Instead of having the cargo boxes and soforth, I'm confident that Mendasp could invent a reception area for the spacestation bast. I reckon it'd work well. Might have to do some tricky stuff with hint brushes to keep the rspeeds down from marine start if you go for the ramp approach to get there, but it'd be cool none the less. One res node between rine start and engine hive. More complex pathway (perhaps have a func_rotating made to look like a door, you've probably seen one before. Always spinning, you just jump in and walk around with it - obviously a slower speed)
7: Generic walkway to main aft. Perhaps an elevator, some change or something. This would be the main route from "Reception" to the "Control Room" so it'd probably be snazzy.
8: Main aft junction. Five entrances/exits into the area, two resource nozzles. Removed the "bottomless bit thing" and moved it elsewhere, so you go directly from it into the main control room. I think it'd work. It's a lot further away from marine start then it originally was so it's viable to make a double node - plus it's easily accessible from engine, feedwater and refinery hives.
9: The bottomless bit electricity thingy (can't remember the name offhand, which is kinda sad, but since it was pretty much a useless area I never paid it too much notice. Some shaft or something) would be soooo much better off next to the engines. I mean, a power source next to an engine room. It'd be a new 'entrance' into engine from main aft. perhaps make it maintenance access rather then a huge elevator.
10: Control room. Same as always, same position I think, just no shaft behind it.
As for the elevator mentioned, you could reuse the spinning doors for it. In sven coop and half life they had platforms for trains to go on that rotated as they moved up, if it's not too entity heavy it'd be an interesting thing to do I think - else just have it as an elevator to give a sense of depth as you go 'down' to feedwater hive =)
Gah. Post turned out to be too long. Oh wells. You're more then welcome to flame me, but I'd prefer to see the parts of bast be re-used then thrown away for balance =)
oh, yeah. I removed all vents from that so it's easier to understand, that doesn't mean I want all the vents removed. Keep 'em in and change them as you like, they just made it look too complicated =)
Shoudln't #3 be more easily accessible from Feed? Just an idea.
The idea of extra interconnectability for bast looks pretty good though. The main problem I see is that the EM shaft would have to be redesigned - seeing as its a passageway right out of a Hive now, leaving it in its current form would create a sort of chokepoint.
Just maybe make the EM shaft area larger than the old one, the walkways bigger and rail-less or so. Anything to make it a bit more alien friendly - maybe even a little Hera-processing style overlapping walkways fun.
The Bahamud's suggestion looks cool. It's hard to know how that big change would work, but the engine area has already changed much from the old version.
I'd say that we definitively need to discuss this idea more <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
EDIT, ADMINS: Aarg. I pressed the report button on SaltzBad post by accident. sorry
could always have #3 directly accessible from tram maintenance as well I suppose? I dunno, figured it'd be good to get some more use outta the corridoor with the furnaces.
Tis a pretty large change tho, and that's not even addressing the refinery problems, although the post before it was <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Guess we'll have to see how bored Mendasp is <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'll trade you refinery for the old turny door and lift.
In other news, I still think Ref just needs more stuff hanging from the roof, perhaps "fill it out" a bit so there's no more ledges for JP led relocates to the roof. You know, like the room that overlooks ref? I'd keep the room but instead of having a flat bit on top for relocation have it run right up to the roof. And ditto on the opposite side of the room - people are known to relocate there too.
Just simple things to limit mobility, but not make it totally impassable for JPs. It'd only be a slight cosmetic change and not really remove the "feel" of ref hive.
As for the response... I think thats because with the removal of the door and lift, as well as rearranging of the northeast of the map, people have seen a lot of change in bast... and moving ref hive would be icing on the cake.
Also, have to say that people coming into the thread and handing out flames about mappers abusing maps is just counterproductive and not needed.
Yeah I think you guys should lay off the attacks. Constructive critism is all that's needed.
You could go "Counter-Strike" Style and release the original bast as well as bast2 like dust and dust2 did. Probably not the best way to go, but it'd solve some issues if you're making huge changes - plus you could leave the revolving door edition in for the people that seem to like it for whatever reason =)
the only thing, for me with new bast (since i love all the old stuff!) is the new way to engine is way too wide and big.. too easy as marines to hold whole skulk teams in there with 2-3 men. :o
hehe, engine hive never really striked me as logical for an engine (i mean, it'd be noisy, right? And it'd probably be in the back-center of the ship...) but the problem you're referring to could probably be fixed if some sort of vis-blocking structure was placed in the middle of the hive. Not entirely sure what could be used for that though, as it's quite a open area. Unless it was some sort of support for the pipes above? o.O
<!--QuoteBegin-Bahamut+Sep 23 2004, 05:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bahamut @ Sep 23 2004, 05:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You can't hide from bast forever Mendasp, it's gonna come back and bite you in the butt eventually =) <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I haven't worked on bast for a while now. The problem is, my classes started again and I don't have much time, and in my free time... well, I prefer doing other things...
Bast needs quite a lot of work, and I'm going to try to pass it onto someone else on the team, I'll decide something after this weekend.
@Bahamut : Dust and dust2 are unrelated as far as the .rmfs go - they're just done by the same mapper, in the same theme and intended to be vastly different maps from the gameplay. The original .rmf files weren't released afaik.
<!--QuoteBegin-Mendasp+Sep 23 2004, 06:16 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendasp @ Sep 23 2004, 06:16 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Bahamut+Sep 23 2004, 05:38 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Bahamut @ Sep 23 2004, 05:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> You can't hide from bast forever Mendasp, it's gonna come back and bite you in the butt eventually =) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I haven't worked on bast for a while now. The problem is, my classes started again and I don't have much time, and in my free time... well, I prefer doing other things...
Bast needs quite a lot of work, and I'm going to try to pass it onto someone else on the team, I'll decide something after this weekend. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Time to lose the avatar then :o
Comments
As for engine i had a quick idea of moving it about between observation bridge and water treatment and then maybe switch it around. The big up-opening Main aft door would a have some stairs going down to it and the side entrance you're thinking of would lead to an elevator behind the (currently) closed door in the main aft corridor, the one right next to EM drill shaft and the elevator leading to water treatment. I dont know if that would solve any problem at all but probably would bring the layout closer to the original bast and remove the need of the docking storage route.
This is being considered... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Engine... well, I'll wait a bit more before I start working on that issue...
It's also not so much that it was so high, but so long and.. empty. Now that the res node's gone, that entire half of the room is useless. It's probably a worse place to relocate for Marines than right under the Hive now (aliens just climb up the wall from Feed, turrets don't get enough fire-time)
So, it's a refinery. It refines things. Where does it all go? Where's the fuel for the giant furnace? It could seriously use some crates stacked about, or some broken pipes under those big vats that reach all the way to the floor. Something for the aliens to spawn behind and skitter around instead of being blasted by marines that have the advantage of range everytime they spawn.
Dare I say it.. -lava?- Just look at Furnace hive on Origin.
I also don't like that engine is so close from mstart, it's too easy to do ip rush there.
The 3rd thing is that the passage from engine to ref is ugly. It looks just as
it would have been glued together. You definitively need to re-design that part.
There are many ns maps, which looks like two different maps in the different sides of the map, and the areas smootly convert between. This isn't the case with the engine-ref area in bast. The word <b>glued together</b> describes the problem best I think.
If you are going to change refinery, then please don't lose the refinery ramp (from tram tunnel). It's wery easy for aliens to defend refinery (from low tech marines) because of that ramp. (do a couple of oc's on the top of the ramp, and with a gorge or two, you need at least four marines to broke that). You could also add some pipes to the roof of refinery. Personally, I think that the refinery is one of the best places in ns. It's a lerks dream, gorges heaven and nightmare of single marine.
EDIT: As somebody else said, I loved the feeling in 1.04 because of the weldables.
It's so cool (yes, just watched Aliens) to be able to seal an entire area by welding some vent or door. Yes, it itsn't fair for aliens, but <b>yes, it's so freaking cool to marines</b>. Please add more weldables to the map. If it helps marines, then add some alien friendly areas to the map. It can't be easy to make the map balanced because of weldables, but I think it's worth it! =)
EDIT 2: About the part with adding some pipes to the roof of refinery. If you do add them, add then just to make it easier for skulks to hide between them. There must be a way for a skulk to easily travel on the roof across ref. Just add some small things to the roof so one can hide in the shadows of them, but don't make it impossible to move on the roof for skulks.
- juho
You know it MrBen. Hands off.
However i do agree that the majority of work should be done on engine hive and that quarter of the map to make it take longer for rines to get there and to make it feel like its part of bast (atm the new path from ms > engine hive just doesnt feel like it fits, cant really explain it but it just feels odd.
For Beta 6 I want to "fix" the problems with refinery, which is going to be a pain in the ****. Any suggestions about this would be great.
You can tell me about bugs in bast in this thread, too. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know when Child Services takes a kid away from a family for abuse...? Well, you're the parents <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ...
For Beta 6 I want to "fix" the problems with refinery, which is going to be a pain in the ****. Any suggestions about this would be great.
You can tell me about bugs in bast in this thread, too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know when Child Services takes a kid away from a family for abuse...? Well, you're the parents <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know when people post useless crap in feedback threads? Awesome, right?
Edit: I assume you didn't even read the thread, why would you do that when you can insult the hard work of other people? I don't think you're even going to read this again, but I'd like to say that you're an idiot <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
For Beta 6 I want to "fix" the problems with refinery, which is going to be a pain in the ****. Any suggestions about this would be great.
You can tell me about bugs in bast in this thread, too. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know when Child Services takes a kid away from a family for abuse...? Well, you're the parents <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> ... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You know when people post useless crap in feedback threads? Awesome, right?
Edit: I assume you didn't even read the thread, why would you do that when you can insult the hard work of other people? I don't think you're even going to read this again, but I'd like to say that you're an idiot <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<b><i><u>ICEBURN!!!</u></i></b>
For refinery: The main problems are that 1. It's too damn big, and a JP heaven 2. It has no decent cover for spawning skulks 3. It's possible to shoot down the hive from the other side of the room (even from the ramp)
It needs cover added for spawners without turning it into the NS plague of yet-another-room-full-of-boxes. Idea: add more pipes (at least it fits the theme of the room). A lot more pipes. Like the pipes at the far end that pass over the ramped entrance. But make them just high enough for a skulk to run underneath. (Yet not so big that marines can't jump over them, obviously) Maybe making them run in groups of two or three in some places, allowing skulks places to run to immediately when they spawn so they're not camped to their doom. Have the pipes go vertical in some areas as well, to making jetpacking a little less superior in the room. Don't underestimate the advantage of some hanging illusionary infestation for giving skulks places to ambush from.
Then, as was suggested earlier, hollow out one of the large silo-like metal cylinders and stick the hive in that, with holes to view it through. Just make sure that it's not too easy for a marine to jump inside and run around in there shooting the hive down. Maybe give it no floor, so they have to actually stand under it and stare up to shoot it down. While the skulks bite their ankles and they trip over pipes trying to run away. Not so marine friendly now, eh?
i agree with bob on this, its a good solution to the ref problem.
i agree with bob on this, its a good solution to the ref problem. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Didn't you say the 1.04 bast was balanced?
I was playing some regular ns map. Not sure if it's standard or custom.. but it was -full- of weldables. I opened the map and there had to be ATLEAST 10. I got a welder and could have spent five minutes just running around and welding everything. 'twas awesome. Every map needs more weldables!
Just, if you got five different people to change it and give you their take on it in their style, you could then work on translating that back to bast in the bast style.
Like, for instance, if you gave the source to PS_Mouse, you'd probably come back with complex architecture and a more 'dam-facility' feeling. Give it to KFDM, and you'll end up with no lights left <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> Nah, you'd get a more altair feeling. That would be their take, but with each one you'd gain more ideas on how to 'fix' the issues with refinery.
Would be interesting to say the least, if you do trust five people enough, I'd encourage you to try it. If nothing it'll give these people more of an insight into what refinery could become =)
Bahamut.
I doubt people will complain if you fix ref by adding to it.
I'll make this short and to the point, as there's already enough long posts in this thread.
I love bast, was the first map I ever saw of NS. I remember sitting in spectator mode watching the marines setup some turrets in 1.03, was pretty cool. I love the changes being made to it, and have some somewhat dodgy suggestions to make.
One thing to note: Since I saw the new bast, I've always been a fan of converting Main Aft into a double res. Dunno why, just think it'd be cool =)
Current:
<img src='http://www.bahamutns.com/ns/ns_bast.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
Modified:
<img src='http://www.bahamutns.com/ns/bast1.jpg' border='0' alt='user posted image' />
There's the dodgy image. Probably makes a little sense, but generally not much.
I'll just chuck down the numbers and what the changes mean. Changes are the whole thing won't get done, as it's probably too extensive, though a couple would be nice.
1: Spin tram tunnel 90 degrees and make two maintenance entrances off it going to feedwater. Always disliked the tram tunnel as aliens, way too much open space to even hope to kill marines. The new changes with the vents are alright for skulks and lerks, but still the big aliens need a safer route.
2: Feedwater hive. Exactly the same as it is now, except it has another exit to tram tunnel on the opposite side of the first.
3: New path and room with a res node connecting to an elevator (the dodgy circle bit, explained below) that leads to main aft.
4: Atmospheric processing. One res node removed, one remains.
5: Marine start. Remember where the old vent used to be with the door? I thought replacing that with a duel ramp leading to bast reception would be a cool way to integrate the new parts. Alternatively, you could put a cargo lift there. Either way, it seems stupid to have a docking bay and no reception o.O
Ascii art is useless, but my hammer skills aren't that great, so I'm using it. This'll be a birds eye view. Basically B and X are the two ramps, one goes up half the distance, and you hit P (platform) then you walk along and go the rest of the distance up ramp X. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
XXXXXXPPP
XXXXXXPPP
BBBBBBPPP
BBBBBBPPP
6: Reception! Instead of having the cargo boxes and soforth, I'm confident that Mendasp could invent a reception area for the spacestation bast. I reckon it'd work well. Might have to do some tricky stuff with hint brushes to keep the rspeeds down from marine start if you go for the ramp approach to get there, but it'd be cool none the less. One res node between rine start and engine hive. More complex pathway (perhaps have a func_rotating made to look like a door, you've probably seen one before. Always spinning, you just jump in and walk around with it - obviously a slower speed)
7: Generic walkway to main aft. Perhaps an elevator, some change or something. This would be the main route from "Reception" to the "Control Room" so it'd probably be snazzy.
8: Main aft junction. Five entrances/exits into the area, two resource nozzles. Removed the "bottomless bit thing" and moved it elsewhere, so you go directly from it into the main control room. I think it'd work. It's a lot further away from marine start then it originally was so it's viable to make a double node - plus it's easily accessible from engine, feedwater and refinery hives.
9: The bottomless bit electricity thingy (can't remember the name offhand, which is kinda sad, but since it was pretty much a useless area I never paid it too much notice. Some shaft or something) would be soooo much better off next to the engines. I mean, a power source next to an engine room. It'd be a new 'entrance' into engine from main aft. perhaps make it maintenance access rather then a huge elevator.
10: Control room. Same as always, same position I think, just no shaft behind it.
As for the elevator mentioned, you could reuse the spinning doors for it. In sven coop and half life they had platforms for trains to go on that rotated as they moved up, if it's not too entity heavy it'd be an interesting thing to do I think - else just have it as an elevator to give a sense of depth as you go 'down' to feedwater hive =)
Gah. Post turned out to be too long. Oh wells. You're more then welcome to flame me, but I'd prefer to see the parts of bast be re-used then thrown away for balance =)
The idea of extra interconnectability for bast looks pretty good though. The main problem I see is that the EM shaft would have to be redesigned - seeing as its a passageway right out of a Hive now, leaving it in its current form would create a sort of chokepoint.
Just maybe make the EM shaft area larger than the old one, the walkways bigger and rail-less or so. Anything to make it a bit more alien friendly - maybe even a little Hera-processing style overlapping walkways fun.
I'd say that we definitively need to discuss this idea more <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
EDIT, ADMINS: Aarg. I pressed the report button on SaltzBad post by accident. sorry
- juho
Tis a pretty large change tho, and that's not even addressing the refinery problems, although the post before it was <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Guess we'll have to see how bored Mendasp is <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In other news, I still think Ref just needs more stuff hanging from the roof, perhaps "fill it out" a bit so there's no more ledges for JP led relocates to the roof. You know, like the room that overlooks ref? I'd keep the room but instead of having a flat bit on top for relocation have it run right up to the roof. And ditto on the opposite side of the room - people are known to relocate there too.
Just simple things to limit mobility, but not make it totally impassable for JPs. It'd only be a slight cosmetic change and not really remove the "feel" of ref hive.
As for the response... I think thats because with the removal of the door and lift, as well as rearranging of the northeast of the map, people have seen a lot of change in bast... and moving ref hive would be icing on the cake.
Also, have to say that people coming into the thread and handing out flames about mappers abusing maps is just counterproductive and not needed.
You could go "Counter-Strike" Style and release the original bast as well as bast2 like dust and dust2 did. Probably not the best way to go, but it'd solve some issues if you're making huge changes - plus you could leave the revolving door edition in for the people that seem to like it for whatever reason =)
I haven't worked on bast for a while now. The problem is, my classes started again and I don't have much time, and in my free time... well, I prefer doing other things...
Bast needs quite a lot of work, and I'm going to try to pass it onto someone else on the team, I'll decide something after this weekend.
Dust and dust2 are unrelated as far as the .rmfs go - they're just done by the same mapper, in the same theme and intended to be vastly different maps from the gameplay. The original .rmf files weren't released afaik.
I haven't worked on bast for a while now. The problem is, my classes started again and I don't have much time, and in my free time... well, I prefer doing other things...
Bast needs quite a lot of work, and I'm going to try to pass it onto someone else on the team, I'll decide something after this weekend. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Time to lose the avatar then :o