For slowing down access to engine: You could, instead of having a path straight there, make a path that goes through the old revolving door area, into main aft. I know, it's even more sacriligious, because it would even remove the semblance of a revolving door there. But you could add a slow moving regular door in that area that auto-closes after a few seconds, so that marines would have to pass that door, then the pop-up door in main aft, then go down the hall to get to engine. Should be about as slow as the old route.
IF the revolving door is ever put back in, make it so the ground doesn't turn with the rest. It will remove all that jittering when you use it. Of course, disallow building in it.
I really did like the old bast but I've yet to play the new modified version so I'll refrain from commenting based on what others have said. However in the meantime I can explain what I liked about it and how I'd change things about.
+ The first issue is how easy it is for marines to move in to refinery and then just run around shooting stuff. Enclosing the hive in a broken silo seems like a reasonable idea to stop rushes on the hive but doesn't stop the problem of marines setting up outside so easily. The architecture is very nice though and it'd be a shame to change it. Very tricky... I don't envy your task. If I had to give an answer It'd be to move the res node to the other side, maybe inset in the wall in a cubby hole, then extend the room eastward slightly and tuck away the hive.
A bit like this (1337 ascii art)
Current Room shape (r = node, h = hive, x = floor)
You could keep your existing architecture but partially enclose the hive but make it still siegable.
+ This is one of my favourite maps for moving about as both alien and marine. The vents have to be the best in all of NS as they present a lot of variety and accesibility to both teams (ableit the marines having to take long routes around). It's always felt very epic but also seperated in to zones (being Marine Start, Main Aft and Engine, Atmos, Feed and Tram, Refinery and surrounding corridors) with fights occuring over each part. Pushing from one section to another often requires major effort but this was what made it so fun!
+Relocating! Two main relocates (Atmos and Main Aft) which lead to easy wins. Rather than changing how Marine Start works (with regards to accessing them) maybe just reducing their potency would do the trick. For instance rotate engine 45 degrees to the right from main aft then add a vent/corridor bypassing it connecting towards refinery. Aliens can use vents to circumvent main aft completely. The only change I'd make to Atmos is to increase the travel time to feedwater (by extending and elaborating the corridors between) and maybe even move one of the nodes a short distance away (a virtual double like you see on metal with mineral processing)
+Rotating Door Love! Yes I loved the rotating door and the lift too (like a lot of people) and as I always relocate on this map I don't often see the problems associated with them popping up. I'm guessing the problem is that onos (and to some extent fade) have difficulty attacking MS. This could be solved in part by adding additional rooms/short corridors to MS to which the door and elevator are attached. Then smaller lifeforms can always go check first while the big ones move in to position, if the marines chase them the aliens can ambush them in the tigher spaces.
btw keep up the work! Are there public tests of the new version as you develop it as once every NS beta isn't often enough. At this point (based on respone) I'd still be balancing the existing changes before going after ref.
I forgot to mention, there is a lot of un-used space in refinery such as all the space on the left hand side of the ramp down. Perhaps we could make this space more useful or maybe even put the RT over that bit.
<!--QuoteBegin-JazzX+Sep 6 2004, 09:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (JazzX @ Sep 6 2004, 09:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> [QUOTE=Scylla,Sep 6 2004, 04:55 AM] The other issue you run into is the best/fastest path to Refinery is through Engine which is not a situation you want to be in. The marines can do an insanely fast 2 hive lockdown if the Aliens start in Feed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Yeah, it's way too easy for Marines to get a two hive lockdown. Whenever the alien team spawns in Feed, the Commander will get his team to relocate to Engine and then focus on locking down Refinery.
Not only does this prevent the aliens from winning without a miracle, it forces the marines into a turtle mentality, drawing the game out another 10-20 min when it had been decided as soon as a TF/PG was put up in refinery.
<b>NolSinkler</b>'s idea, while having some drastic changes, fixes a lot of the problems with Engine Room/MS, though I fear it makes Feed the new Pipeline hive, no?
I've loaded up the new bast now after downloading beta 5 and I've got a few comments regarding the changes. Please bear with me as they're not in order of importance (just listed as I think of them).
1. Docking storage is full of crates. I think this room could be made a lot better, crates are over-used in the HL engine to fill spaces, and lacks creativity. It's fairly flat too. Why not make it in to a full blown small ship docking port. Split it on to two levels seperated by about 32-64 units height, railings seperating the levels etc.
2. Engine Corridor seems incomplete. I understand this is an NS beta but the maps are normally finished to a higher standard. The two corridors blocked up seem like an afterthought. Particularly the large door seems out of place as it leads on to an extremely narrow corridor which wouldn't make sense.
3. Engine Hive doesn't suit two entrances with its current design. There is no continuous pathway between the two doors and why would you be able to access the engines from both the front and the rear like this? Perhaps a maintenance access route would seem to make more sense. On a personal note I think it should be rotated 180 degrees just to flow better. We've lost the vents on the side too. Sieging from the vents was always tricky enough so I don't think it needs to be removed.
4. Atmos is way too close to marine start, if the aliens have engine or refinery they have no chance of fighting over it. In my opinion, no matter the hive, a double should be contestable by both teams regardless of starting position.
5. The stylings of the new areas do not fit in to the existing theme of the level. Basts original look seemed like a fully functional ship and areas were cut off quite smoothly. Now some of the old areas have lost their charm (with the new conectivity) and the new areas seem to be functionality over design.
6. The existing vents were tricky enough to get in to but now they're almost unusable to the marines without a massive effort. In my opinion it decreases the flexibility of the map.
The quality of the changes are high and it's clear that a lot of thought have gone it to it. I think there is hope in the new layout yet but still quite a lot of work to do.
I'd consider extending the distances between atmos, marine start, cargo storage and engine corridor. Rethinking the placement of the doors and corridors will help you stay true to the original style. I do believe you can reach a fun and playable(competitive) map with the direction your heading. However I think it would be easier to fall back to more simple changes and gradual testing.
I know this sounds largely negative and I'm sorry for that but I hope I've explained my criticisms well. I appreciate everyones work on bast greatly and I really want this project to suceed.
-Im not really getting what the problem was for the rev door. I thought it was a pretty good way of slowing the 'rines down. I barely noticed the 'jitter', and I (on a bad day) lag like a mofo. Do consider reusing it somehow if it makes sense <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
-the new opening to the marine spawn looks pretty bad. What happened to cause the door to have a hole like that? I dont think Ive ever seen metal break like that. As well, it sorta goes against the mapping guidelines, where stuff near the marine spawn should be neat and tidy. I say make it one heavy duty door, not unlike the one next to the now gone elevator. If you really wanna keep a hole of sort there, I recommend you make it a double door, and make it look like its been 'charged' open by an onos
I would fully support the swapping of marine start and Atmospheric, and also the removal of one Atmos node (doublenode rooms had BETTER be equidistant to every hive and simultaneously not a chockpoint, meaning that in almost all case doublenode rooms shouldn't exist. Esspecially not on bast). I'm not really comfortable with all the other changes suggested there, although obviously something would need to be done to lengthen the spece between the new MS and Feed. I would personally support doors, but a longer hallway works too.
I think some of the existing changes certainly do make the map more playable. And the new ones you're proposing could help even more.
But...
At what point does it no longer make sense to keep bending and stretching a map to make it more playable? Bast has always had a very unique feeling to it. Up and down elevators and ladder, waiting for doors to open, vents that it actually made sense to send marines through (instead of cussing at them to stop fooling around in them), awkward spaces for marines with aliens crawling out of the woodwork, terrain that tended to spread marines (and aliens) out and slow them down, and above all the ship-like feeling of the map (but what kind of ship? An ore hulk?) have always made it unique. Of course it has always had its problems, but I've always enjoyed playing it.
Setting aside "playability" issues, by which I'm assuming "match-friendly" is meant, this map was great. Unique feel, many different courses and outcomes to the games played on it. The first time I played it on beta5, however, I simultanously felt an "ah" of relief at the easy jaunt to engine room and an undefinable feeling that bast was gone... that is, that this map, whatever it is, is no longer bast. It doesn't feel anything like it. If the ideal map for "playability" is some sort of flat square grid of corridors, with a hive at each corner and MS at the 4th, and a double res in the middle, the new bast is a lot closer to that now. And not so much like bast.
My point is, if what you want is Bast, but without the sort of problems that could lead to one team or the other getting screwed based on the starting hive, it might make more sense to think hard about the Bast concept, and to start over; make a new map that worked with that feeling and was more "playable", whatever that means exactly. Because my feeling is that all of this tweaking and poking and cutting holes in the walls has wrecked your lovely house, not made it better.
I mean, what is marine start going to be called now? That was the lonely, cut-off control room, and Atmos. was the dark hole you'd send your poor marines crawling into to try and get the resources you needed to take your ship back. Now MS is in the dark hole and the control room is a bulge in the corridor with a smoking nipple in it, and where is Bast?
Sorry if this is overstated. I love this map, and would love to see a new one that was more "playable" that felt something like it, rather than see a fun map knocked to pieces.
All you need to do is have a topographical analysis of the old Bast to see why changes needed to be made.
Marine Start connected directly to all three hives and was a deathtrap to aliens, while still being inconvenient to marines (making Main Aft an uber relocation point, it kept the accessability advantage and ditched the annoying to marines part).
Feedwater is connected to MS and Refinery and Double
Engine is connected to MS.
Refinery is connected to MS and Feedwater.
That's the map, in a nutshell. Now, not even considering problems like being able to seige Engine from MS, you can see plainly that Engine sucks as a hive-- it needs another point of access that doesn't run straight through what is clearly marine territory: Main Aft. In order to get to Engine at all, you need to touch the marines in some way, making it isolated. Furthermore, the map is more heavily weighted in terms of value in the direction of feedwater, because of the doublenode. It's WAY off to the side there!
You can kinda think of the old bast as looking like the letter d. There's engine at the top, feedwater at the leftmost point of the curve (and double slightly above it) Refinery at the bottom point, and Main Aft (Marine Start) at the intersection. You can't tell me that's fair.
Sure sure. Good analysis. I can see the problems with it quite clearly now.
My point was, with it all flattened out and easy as pie to get everywhere, it doesn't feel anything like the original, it's just another map with a grid structure. Starting over could make a map that had something like the feel of the original (which people clearly like) without the issues that you so clearly describe.
Pretty easy for me to suggest starting all over when I'm not the one who has to do the work I realize. But that's what forums are for. Far-out suggestions that evade reality.
Who knows, maybe once all the changes are done it will get the bast feel back, I hope so.
Although Bast had some clear problems, such as main aft, the isolation of engine room etc... I agree with T.Ali...
The thing that bothers me so much with all this "balancing" of every level is that WHY should every level be 100% balanced? Part of what drew me to NS was the realism, and especially the level of Bast, was the fact that it seemed like a real complex. It's now lost its feeling of grandeur and altitude, it's massive scope and interaction. Part of the fun of Bast was joining the marine team and knowing "this is gonna be a tough fight". Does no one value ever being the underdog anymore?
If real marines were to enter a large refinery complex like Bast, not every area would be friendly to their travels, and the same for aliens. Think of your local power-station, if there was an infestation of alien creatures there and the military entered, would they be benefited with balance for every location? Of course not. Would they be met with areas that'd be a death trap to them if not handled perfectly? Of course. Would there be key areas vital to their ability to win? Absolutely.
There should be levels that should have advantages to certain species if they know what to do... but likewise i've seen Bast owned by marines on many occasions even when people were always quick to point fingers and yell "alien bias map!"
Oh no there's a big slow blast door beneath a 50ft lift. Shock horror, there's a rotating door that slows down all advancing to the main advantage point of the map. These are two key parts of the level that really gave it identity, tension, excitement and pressure... now the whole level is one calm walk-through.
Hell when watching 'Aliens' you didn't hear the marines going "stacked teams", "bias level", "hax", "n00bs" or "this is so unbalanced!"
Another thing that's annoyed me ever since the changes came quick and fast after NS v.3 came out is the reduction in weldables. I loved that feeling that we could secure whole areas, or as an alien realise that we'd have to make other plans... so many weldables have been removed over time.
Everything's done in the name of balance, but I guess i'm the only one who finds more fun in 'realism' than open-plan areas, forever-open vents, easily traversed levels and death-match style shooting gallery areas. This is the only game i've ever played to such a degree that I felt like I wasn't being presented with a game, but more a survival-simulation, NS is so much more than it's peers. As levels are simplified and balanced, the direction is swayed more towards the action and less about the strategy.
I'll say well-done to the redesigner on his design work, it's high quality map making. But it's not Bast.
The one part that I always liked about Bast (same with NS_Agora) was the vertical element. Most of the "Classic" and popular NS maps tend to be on a single plane. Sure some of the rooms had higher ceilings and lower spots, but for the most part they were 2d oriented. Bast and Agora gave a great sense of depth and volume which unfortunatly make them very very hard to shuffle and balance.
The reason why Bast doesn't feel like Bast anymore for a lot of people may be that the map lost it's sense of depth as it was flattened around Marine Start and Engine.
I'm not sure how this problem can be solved. I think a lot of it has to do with Feedwater as now it's a pretty bad spot to start out. The marines shouldn't have better access to the other two hives on any map without relocating.
<!--QuoteBegin-Ator the Fighting Eagle+Sep 7 2004, 06:10 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ator the Fighting Eagle @ Sep 7 2004, 06:10 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Although Bast had some clear problems, such as main aft, the isolation of engine room etc... I agree with T.Ali...
The thing that bothers me so much with all this "balancing" of every level is that WHY should every level be 100% balanced? Part of what drew me to NS was the realism, and especially the level of Bast, was the fact that it seemed like a real complex. It's now lost its feeling of grandeur and altitude, it's massive scope and interaction. Part of the fun of Bast was joining the marine team and knowing "this is gonna be a tough fight". Does no one value ever being the underdog anymore?
If real marines were to enter a large refinery complex like Bast, not every area would be friendly to their travels, and the same for aliens. Think of your local power-station, if there was an infestation of alien creatures there and the military entered, would they be benefited with balance for every location? Of course not. Would they be met with areas that'd be a death trap to them if not handled perfectly? Of course. Would there be key areas vital to their ability to win? Absolutely.
There should be levels that should have advantages to certain species if they know what to do... but likewise i've seen Bast owned by marines on many occasions even when people were always quick to point fingers and yell "alien bias map!"
Oh no there's a big slow blast door beneath a 50ft lift. Shock horror, there's a rotating door that slows down all advancing to the main advantage point of the map. These are two key parts of the level that really gave it identity, tension, excitement and pressure... now the whole level is one calm walk-through.
Hell when watching 'Aliens' you didn't hear the marines going "stacked teams", "bias level", "hax", "n00bs" or "this is so unbalanced!"
Another thing that's annoyed me ever since the changes came quick and fast after NS v.3 came out is the reduction in weldables. I loved that feeling that we could secure whole areas, or as an alien realise that we'd have to make other plans... so many weldables have been removed over time.
Everything's done in the name of balance, but I guess i'm the only one who finds more fun in 'realism' than open-plan areas, forever-open vents, easily traversed levels and death-match style shooting gallery areas. This is the only game i've ever played to such a degree that I felt like I wasn't being presented with a game, but more a survival-simulation, NS is so much more than it's peers. As levels are simplified and balanced, the direction is swayed more towards the action and less about the strategy.
I'll say well-done to the redesigner on his design work, it's high quality map making. But it's not Bast. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Very nicely done. Took the words outta my mouth (and wrote them heaps better too <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->).
ssjyodaJoin Date: 2002-03-05Member: 274Members, Squad Five Blue
i agree that those things made the map great... i also agree the map did have balance problems.. its still in work. so think of ways to reincorporate those things. i dont completely agree with how the balance is being adjusted, i would have worked with/around the things that made bast unique... hopefully they can be, some day, reinserted.
i also say, yes, bast doesn't have the same feel as it did. it was very intense, claustrophobic, and dark.. made for great atmosphere. bast doesn't have this anymore. its starting to feel like a normal map.
im not completely sure how to bring the feel back in with keepin balance. cause most of that feeling came from unbalance.
It's really easy to control two hives by simply relocating to water treatment. Other than that I actually like the map <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I'm still going to wait a bit before I die in frustrat... err... try to fix the map for everyone. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Mendasp+Sep 8 2004, 11:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendasp @ Sep 8 2004, 11:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm still going to wait a bit before I die in frustrat... err... try to fix the map for everyone. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Oh, don't get me wrong. I loved every single version of bast, starting with the 1.0 version. Right now the relocate is just too powerful in my eyes, hell it's even better than the old main aft one <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Mendasp+Sep 8 2004, 05:03 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Mendasp @ Sep 8 2004, 05:03 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I'm still going to wait a bit before I die in frustrat... err... try to fix the map for everyone. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well they say that the only person who likes change is a dirty baby. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Your working on an old favorite (imo) so its gonna be hard to do things without people critisizing you.
SpoogeThunderbolt missile in your cheeriosJoin Date: 2002-01-25Member: 67Members
Admittedly I haven't had many chances to play the new Bast. But, my initial reaction was that most of the areas were too open for skulk or gorge movement. I don't really have issue with the layout but the spaces seem too wide open right now.
Otherwise it looks great <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think the best way to "fix" refinery is going to be to stick it in its own little cubby hole somewhere. Maybe stick it in the furnace so that if those JP's ever do land they die! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The route from MS to engine... Perhaps make the back entrance like someone else said, more of a maintenance corridor/vent type thing. Lower the whole hive a bunch and extend the front entrance route (that leads to water treatment) and have it ramp downward. Then have this maintenance corridor still come in the back but require the marines to traverse down a ladder or two. (I for one see no problem with a back entrance to the engine. (I mean, a car's engine is <i>front</i> of the driver and a ways away from the back wheels!) Besides, Bast always struck me as a ship parked inside of another large vessel rather than one vessel in itself. That's just me anyway.
I dont know if Mendasp or MrBen still read the bast feedback threads but anyway.
I dowloaded beta 5 today, and while i am not a hardcore NS gamer and while i did not play the new map a lot on actual internet play, i did examine it a lot on an offline play. Bast was the first map i ever played in ns, . While it was horribly laggy (good old version 1.0 days... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->), i perfectly remember the ambiance, feeling, tight atmosphere the map had. GOing through the revolving foor and elevator was particularly creepy, with a distinct Aliens feeling (think Ripley going down to fight the alien queen). One thing that made it ever better was that everyone was discovering the game and the maps. No one was a hardcore rambo player, but everyone went gently, slowly, and saying wooo-aaahh at every corner. these were great days, but now things have changed. Most players now focus on fast, ultra professional gameplay it seems. Yes gameplay is important, but the mainstream player doesnt want everything to be perfect, he wants it to be a great experience. There has always been a lot of fighting about bast, and pleasing eveyone is impossible. What i say is leave the hardcore balance players with some maps (i hardly hear any comments on eclipse, veil etc) and new players and old players with others (bast and hera and nothing are probably the maps with the best atmospheres). May everyone have what they like seperatly and dont try to make everything perfect by sacrificing core elements.
Back to the new bast. The first thing i notice is that you guys probably tried to change too much too fast. People need time to adapt, and some changes are a bit too radical i think: Engine is totally different now and has a totally different feeling now, and not really for the best i think. the new road between engine and MS doesnt seem to fit with the old bast feeling and arrangement, and it's just too short to go to both ms and refinery from engine now. It feels like one half of the map has been entirely turned around and the other half is intact. Radical changes ARE needed to make Bast a bit better gameplay-wise (and im sure you did try any possible combination to keep the original layout intact), but the map simply wouldn't be Bast anymore. As for future changes, while refinery does need to be tweaked a bit (it does look bigger than it used to be), please, do not do the same kind of heavy changes you did with engine. The tweaks i'd recommend doing would be changing the lighting in Docking Storage (make it darker, remove the big white light spot on the boxes) and making the torned door there look a bit more, well, torned up (plus, make the red lighting darker red, the white/light red really looks weird). I'd also recommend a bit more details on the slope where the elevator used to be.
After a second look i realise many problems linked with the changes made are that now Bast simply looks plain. The rotat. door and elevator compensated for the short distance between MS and other hives and added varity to both the architechture and enviroment (one thing i didnt like with eclipse or veil for example was how the maps are a bit plain, only corridors with computers on walls most of the time), while adding a different touch to gameplay (wait while door rotates instead of walking like you always do). They should probably be left there, but only as simple crops of enviroment and not functional (rot. door being split opened in middle as a passageway...).
Bah, making a perfect Bast would require eternity, so lets just pray Mendasp figures out a way to make everyone happy <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I have a few ideas on how to fix the new route, being marines going through Main Aft the best one (I want to tweak the visual aspect of the new room, btw).
Yeah we're reading it, don't worry. Mendasp has a good idea already and i have a bad idea, well kinda, i still like it even though i know gameplay wise it'd suck. I was thinking maybe raising engine so that it's level with main aft and creating some sort of ns_nancy style ladder thing on the route for all your marine killing needs. It'd really slow down marines and could create some violent and bloody battles. *shrug*
Yes i suck, yes Mendasp's idea is better <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The revolving door used a lot of entities and it's bugged to hell, it will never work, since rotating entities + HL + multiplayer = No.
But at least the essence will be back (I hope), the "best" idea (I think it was mentioned in this thread), was re-adding the old route through main aft back, without the revolving door. The blasted door would be a weldable door (crates from cargo would disappear since I'm going to add a VIS Blocker on the cargo ramp).
Another of my "ideas" was to fix two issues at once by removing the "back" entrance to engine and make a proper entrance in one of the sides (the one without vents), making it a bit more "realistic".
Then we have the problem of Engine -> Refinery, but I don't have anything decided for that one yet (I have to re-read this thread at some point).
Comments
Well, until they can PG in.
Wait.. sounds familiar...
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Anyhow, interesting minimap, seems a bit drastic to me tho.
+ The first issue is how easy it is for marines to move in to refinery and then just run around shooting stuff. Enclosing the hive in a broken silo seems like a reasonable idea to stop rushes on the hive but doesn't stop the problem of marines setting up outside so easily. The architecture is very nice though and it'd be a shame to change it. Very tricky... I don't envy your task. If I had to give an answer It'd be to move the res node to the other side, maybe inset in the wall in a cubby hole, then extend the room eastward slightly and tuck away the hive.
A bit like this (1337 ascii art)
Current Room shape (r = node, h = hive, x = floor)
xxxxxxrxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxhx
New Room shape
xxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxx
xxxxxxxxxxxxh
xxxxxxxxxxxxx
xrx
You could keep your existing architecture but partially enclose the hive but make it still siegable.
+ This is one of my favourite maps for moving about as both alien and marine. The vents have to be the best in all of NS as they present a lot of variety and accesibility to both teams (ableit the marines having to take long routes around). It's always felt very epic but also seperated in to zones (being Marine Start, Main Aft and Engine, Atmos, Feed and Tram, Refinery and surrounding corridors) with fights occuring over each part. Pushing from one section to another often requires major effort but this was what made it so fun!
+Relocating! Two main relocates (Atmos and Main Aft) which lead to easy wins. Rather than changing how Marine Start works (with regards to accessing them) maybe just reducing their potency would do the trick. For instance rotate engine 45 degrees to the right from main aft then add a vent/corridor bypassing it connecting towards refinery. Aliens can use vents to circumvent main aft completely. The only change I'd make to Atmos is to increase the travel time to feedwater (by extending and elaborating the corridors between) and maybe even move one of the nodes a short distance away (a virtual double like you see on metal with mineral processing)
+Rotating Door Love! Yes I loved the rotating door and the lift too (like a lot of people) and as I always relocate on this map I don't often see the problems associated with them popping up. I'm guessing the problem is that onos (and to some extent fade) have difficulty attacking MS. This could be solved in part by adding additional rooms/short corridors to MS to which the door and elevator are attached. Then smaller lifeforms can always go check first while the big ones move in to position, if the marines chase them the aliens can ambush them in the tigher spaces.
btw keep up the work! Are there public tests of the new version as you develop it as once every NS beta isn't often enough. At this point (based on respone) I'd still be balancing the existing changes before going after ref.
The other issue you run into is the best/fastest path to Refinery is through Engine which is not a situation you want to be in. The marines can do an insanely fast 2 hive lockdown if the Aliens start in Feed. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, it's way too easy for Marines to get a two hive lockdown. Whenever the alien team spawns in Feed, the Commander will get his team to relocate to Engine and then focus on locking down Refinery.
Not only does this prevent the aliens from winning without a miracle, it forces the marines into a turtle mentality, drawing the game out another 10-20 min when it had been decided as soon as a TF/PG was put up in refinery.
<b>NolSinkler</b>'s idea, while having some drastic changes, fixes a lot of the problems with Engine Room/MS, though I fear it makes Feed the new Pipeline hive, no?
1. Docking storage is full of crates. I think this room could be made a lot better, crates are over-used in the HL engine to fill spaces, and lacks creativity. It's fairly flat too. Why not make it in to a full blown small ship docking port. Split it on to two levels seperated by about 32-64 units height, railings seperating the levels etc.
2. Engine Corridor seems incomplete. I understand this is an NS beta but the maps are normally finished to a higher standard. The two corridors blocked up seem like an afterthought. Particularly the large door seems out of place as it leads on to an extremely narrow corridor which wouldn't make sense.
3. Engine Hive doesn't suit two entrances with its current design. There is no continuous pathway between the two doors and why would you be able to access the engines from both the front and the rear like this? Perhaps a maintenance access route would seem to make more sense. On a personal note I think it should be rotated 180 degrees just to flow better. We've lost the vents on the side too. Sieging from the vents was always tricky enough so I don't think it needs to be removed.
4. Atmos is way too close to marine start, if the aliens have engine or refinery they have no chance of fighting over it. In my opinion, no matter the hive, a double should be contestable by both teams regardless of starting position.
5. The stylings of the new areas do not fit in to the existing theme of the level. Basts original look seemed like a fully functional ship and areas were cut off quite smoothly. Now some of the old areas have lost their charm (with the new conectivity) and the new areas seem to be functionality over design.
6. The existing vents were tricky enough to get in to but now they're almost unusable to the marines without a massive effort. In my opinion it decreases the flexibility of the map.
The quality of the changes are high and it's clear that a lot of thought have gone it to it. I think there is hope in the new layout yet but still quite a lot of work to do.
I'd consider extending the distances between atmos, marine start, cargo storage and engine corridor. Rethinking the placement of the doors and corridors will help you stay true to the original style. I do believe you can reach a fun and playable(competitive) map with the direction your heading. However I think it would be easier to fall back to more simple changes and gradual testing.
I know this sounds largely negative and I'm sorry for that but I hope I've explained my criticisms well. I appreciate everyones work on bast greatly and I really want this project to suceed.
Meto
-yay for removing elevator.
-Im not really getting what the problem was for the rev door. I thought it was a pretty good way of slowing the 'rines down. I barely noticed the 'jitter', and I (on a bad day) lag like a mofo. Do consider reusing it somehow if it makes sense <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
-the new opening to the marine spawn looks pretty bad. What happened to cause the door to have a hole like that? I dont think Ive ever seen metal break like that. As well, it sorta goes against the mapping guidelines, where stuff near the marine spawn should be neat and tidy. I say make it one heavy duty door, not unlike the one next to the now gone elevator. If you really wanna keep a hole of sort there, I recommend you make it a double door, and make it look like its been 'charged' open by an onos
But...
At what point does it no longer make sense to keep bending and stretching a map to make it more playable? Bast has always had a very unique feeling to it. Up and down elevators and ladder, waiting for doors to open, vents that it actually made sense to send marines through (instead of cussing at them to stop fooling around in them), awkward spaces for marines with aliens crawling out of the woodwork, terrain that tended to spread marines (and aliens) out and slow them down, and above all the ship-like feeling of the map (but what kind of ship? An ore hulk?) have always made it unique. Of course it has always had its problems, but I've always enjoyed playing it.
Setting aside "playability" issues, by which I'm assuming "match-friendly" is meant, this map was great. Unique feel, many different courses and outcomes to the games played on it. The first time I played it on beta5, however, I simultanously felt an "ah" of relief at the easy jaunt to engine room and an undefinable feeling that bast was gone... that is, that this map, whatever it is, is no longer bast. It doesn't feel anything like it. If the ideal map for "playability" is some sort of flat square grid of corridors, with a hive at each corner and MS at the 4th, and a double res in the middle, the new bast is a lot closer to that now. And not so much like bast.
My point is, if what you want is Bast, but without the sort of problems that could lead to one team or the other getting screwed based on the starting hive, it might make more sense to think hard about the Bast concept, and to start over; make a new map that worked with that feeling and was more "playable", whatever that means exactly. Because my feeling is that all of this tweaking and poking and cutting holes in the walls has wrecked your lovely house, not made it better.
I mean, what is marine start going to be called now? That was the lonely, cut-off control room, and Atmos. was the dark hole you'd send your poor marines crawling into to try and get the resources you needed to take your ship back. Now MS is in the dark hole and the control room is a bulge in the corridor with a smoking nipple in it, and where is Bast?
Sorry if this is overstated. I love this map, and would love to see a new one that was more "playable" that felt something like it, rather than see a fun map knocked to pieces.
Marine Start connected directly to all three hives and was a deathtrap to aliens, while still being inconvenient to marines (making Main Aft an uber relocation point, it kept the accessability advantage and ditched the annoying to marines part).
Feedwater is connected to MS and Refinery and Double
Engine is connected to MS.
Refinery is connected to MS and Feedwater.
That's the map, in a nutshell. Now, not even considering problems like being able to seige Engine from MS, you can see plainly that Engine sucks as a hive-- it needs another point of access that doesn't run straight through what is clearly marine territory: Main Aft. In order to get to Engine at all, you need to touch the marines in some way, making it isolated. Furthermore, the map is more heavily weighted in terms of value in the direction of feedwater, because of the doublenode. It's WAY off to the side there!
You can kinda think of the old bast as looking like the letter d. There's engine at the top, feedwater at the leftmost point of the curve (and double slightly above it) Refinery at the bottom point, and Main Aft (Marine Start) at the intersection. You can't tell me that's fair.
My point was, with it all flattened out and easy as pie to get everywhere, it doesn't feel anything like the original, it's just another map with a grid structure. Starting over could make a map that had something like the feel of the original (which people clearly like) without the issues that you so clearly describe.
Pretty easy for me to suggest starting all over when I'm not the one who has to do the work I realize. But that's what forums are for. Far-out suggestions that evade reality.
Who knows, maybe once all the changes are done it will get the bast feel back, I hope so.
The thing that bothers me so much with all this "balancing" of every level is that WHY should every level be 100% balanced? Part of what drew me to NS was the realism, and especially the level of Bast, was the fact that it seemed like a real complex. It's now lost its feeling of grandeur and altitude, it's massive scope and interaction. Part of the fun of Bast was joining the marine team and knowing "this is gonna be a tough fight". Does no one value ever being the underdog anymore?
If real marines were to enter a large refinery complex like Bast, not every area would be friendly to their travels, and the same for aliens. Think of your local power-station, if there was an infestation of alien creatures there and the military entered, would they be benefited with balance for every location? Of course not. Would they be met with areas that'd be a death trap to them if not handled perfectly? Of course. Would there be key areas vital to their ability to win? Absolutely.
There should be levels that should have advantages to certain species if they know what to do... but likewise i've seen Bast owned by marines on many occasions even when people were always quick to point fingers and yell "alien bias map!"
Oh no there's a big slow blast door beneath a 50ft lift. Shock horror, there's a rotating door that slows down all advancing to the main advantage point of the map. These are two key parts of the level that really gave it identity, tension, excitement and pressure... now the whole level is one calm walk-through.
Hell when watching 'Aliens' you didn't hear the marines going "stacked teams", "bias level", "hax", "n00bs" or "this is so unbalanced!"
Another thing that's annoyed me ever since the changes came quick and fast after NS v.3 came out is the reduction in weldables. I loved that feeling that we could secure whole areas, or as an alien realise that we'd have to make other plans... so many weldables have been removed over time.
Everything's done in the name of balance, but I guess i'm the only one who finds more fun in 'realism' than open-plan areas, forever-open vents, easily traversed levels and death-match style shooting gallery areas. This is the only game i've ever played to such a degree that I felt like I wasn't being presented with a game, but more a survival-simulation, NS is so much more than it's peers. As levels are simplified and balanced, the direction is swayed more towards the action and less about the strategy.
I'll say well-done to the redesigner on his design work, it's high quality map making. But it's not Bast.
The reason why Bast doesn't feel like Bast anymore for a lot of people may be that the map lost it's sense of depth as it was flattened around Marine Start and Engine.
I'm not sure how this problem can be solved. I think a lot of it has to do with Feedwater as now it's a pretty bad spot to start out. The marines shouldn't have better access to the other two hives on any map without relocating.
The thing that bothers me so much with all this "balancing" of every level is that WHY should every level be 100% balanced? Part of what drew me to NS was the realism, and especially the level of Bast, was the fact that it seemed like a real complex. It's now lost its feeling of grandeur and altitude, it's massive scope and interaction. Part of the fun of Bast was joining the marine team and knowing "this is gonna be a tough fight". Does no one value ever being the underdog anymore?
If real marines were to enter a large refinery complex like Bast, not every area would be friendly to their travels, and the same for aliens. Think of your local power-station, if there was an infestation of alien creatures there and the military entered, would they be benefited with balance for every location? Of course not. Would they be met with areas that'd be a death trap to them if not handled perfectly? Of course. Would there be key areas vital to their ability to win? Absolutely.
There should be levels that should have advantages to certain species if they know what to do... but likewise i've seen Bast owned by marines on many occasions even when people were always quick to point fingers and yell "alien bias map!"
Oh no there's a big slow blast door beneath a 50ft lift. Shock horror, there's a rotating door that slows down all advancing to the main advantage point of the map. These are two key parts of the level that really gave it identity, tension, excitement and pressure... now the whole level is one calm walk-through.
Hell when watching 'Aliens' you didn't hear the marines going "stacked teams", "bias level", "hax", "n00bs" or "this is so unbalanced!"
Another thing that's annoyed me ever since the changes came quick and fast after NS v.3 came out is the reduction in weldables. I loved that feeling that we could secure whole areas, or as an alien realise that we'd have to make other plans... so many weldables have been removed over time.
Everything's done in the name of balance, but I guess i'm the only one who finds more fun in 'realism' than open-plan areas, forever-open vents, easily traversed levels and death-match style shooting gallery areas. This is the only game i've ever played to such a degree that I felt like I wasn't being presented with a game, but more a survival-simulation, NS is so much more than it's peers. As levels are simplified and balanced, the direction is swayed more towards the action and less about the strategy.
I'll say well-done to the redesigner on his design work, it's high quality map making. But it's not Bast. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Very nicely done. Took the words outta my mouth (and wrote them heaps better too <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->).
i also say, yes, bast doesn't have the same feel as it did. it was very intense, claustrophobic, and dark.. made for great atmosphere. bast doesn't have this anymore. its starting to feel like a normal map.
im not completely sure how to bring the feel back in with keepin balance. cause most of that feeling came from unbalance.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I loved every single version of bast, starting with the 1.0 version. Right now the relocate is just too powerful in my eyes, hell it's even better than the old main aft one <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Well they say that the only person who likes change is a dirty baby. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Your working on an old favorite (imo) so its gonna be hard to do things without people critisizing you.
Otherwise it looks great <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I think the best way to "fix" refinery is going to be to stick it in its own little cubby hole somewhere. Maybe stick it in the furnace so that if those JP's ever do land they die! <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The route from MS to engine... Perhaps make the back entrance like someone else said, more of a maintenance corridor/vent type thing. Lower the whole hive a bunch and extend the front entrance route (that leads to water treatment) and have it ramp downward. Then have this maintenance corridor still come in the back but require the marines to traverse down a ladder or two. (I for one see no problem with a back entrance to the engine. (I mean, a car's engine is <i>front</i> of the driver and a ways away from the back wheels!) Besides, Bast always struck me as a ship parked inside of another large vessel rather than one vessel in itself. That's just me anyway.
Anyway, have fun!
I dowloaded beta 5 today, and while i am not a hardcore NS gamer and while i did not play the new map a lot on actual internet play, i did examine it a lot on an offline play.
Bast was the first map i ever played in ns, . While it was horribly laggy (good old version 1.0 days... <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->), i perfectly remember the ambiance, feeling, tight atmosphere the map had. GOing through the revolving foor and elevator was particularly creepy, with a distinct Aliens feeling (think Ripley going down to fight the alien queen). One thing that made it ever better was that everyone was discovering the game and the maps. No one was a hardcore rambo player, but everyone went gently, slowly, and saying wooo-aaahh at every corner. these were great days, but now things have changed. Most players now focus on fast, ultra professional gameplay it seems. Yes gameplay is important, but the mainstream player doesnt want everything to be perfect, he wants it to be a great experience.
There has always been a lot of fighting about bast, and pleasing eveyone is impossible. What i say is leave the hardcore balance players with some maps (i hardly hear any comments on eclipse, veil etc) and new players and old players with others (bast and hera and nothing are probably the maps with the best atmospheres). May everyone have what they like seperatly and dont try to make everything perfect by sacrificing core elements.
Back to the new bast. The first thing i notice is that you guys probably tried to change too much too fast. People need time to adapt, and some changes are a bit too radical i think: Engine is totally different now and has a totally different feeling now, and not really for the best i think. the new road between engine and MS doesnt seem to fit with the old bast feeling and arrangement, and it's just too short to go to both ms and refinery from engine now. It feels like one half of the map has been entirely turned around and the other half is intact. Radical changes ARE needed to make Bast a bit better gameplay-wise (and im sure you did try any possible combination to keep the original layout intact), but the map simply wouldn't be Bast anymore. As for future changes, while refinery does need to be tweaked a bit (it does look bigger than it used to be), please, do not do the same kind of heavy changes you did with engine. The tweaks i'd recommend doing would be changing the lighting in Docking Storage (make it darker, remove the big white light spot on the boxes) and making the torned door there look a bit more, well, torned up (plus, make the red lighting darker red, the white/light red really looks weird). I'd also recommend a bit more details on the slope where the elevator used to be.
After a second look i realise many problems linked with the changes made are that now Bast simply looks plain. The rotat. door and elevator compensated for the short distance between MS and other hives and added varity to both the architechture and enviroment (one thing i didnt like with eclipse or veil for example was how the maps are a bit plain, only corridors with computers on walls most of the time), while adding a different touch to gameplay (wait while door rotates instead of walking like you always do). They should probably be left there, but only as simple crops of enviroment and not functional (rot. door being split opened in middle as a passageway...).
Bah, making a perfect Bast would require eternity, so lets just pray Mendasp figures out a way to make everyone happy <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I have a few ideas on how to fix the new route, being marines going through Main Aft the best one (I want to tweak the visual aspect of the new room, btw).
Yes i suck, yes Mendasp's idea is better <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Can you give us some hints to discuss?
But at least the essence will be back (I hope), the "best" idea (I think it was mentioned in this thread), was re-adding the old route through main aft back, without the revolving door. The blasted door would be a weldable door (crates from cargo would disappear since I'm going to add a VIS Blocker on the cargo ramp).
Another of my "ideas" was to fix two issues at once by removing the "back" entrance to engine and make a proper entrance in one of the sides (the one without vents), making it a bit more "realistic".
Then we have the problem of Engine -> Refinery, but I don't have anything decided for that one yet (I have to re-read this thread at some point).