Combat Is Not Balanced
keep_it_Gangsta
Join Date: 2003-06-23 Member: 17632Members
Join Date: 2003-06-23 Member: 17632Members
<div class="IPBDescription">read....</div> Ok throughout this post I want you to assume that both teams have equal (and high) skill and are team orientated.
The only way marines will win combat is within the first 5 minutes, they rarely win after the first 5 minutes, heres why.
I play on a 14 man server, no co plugins. If the alien team did this they will not lose, I will go through each players specific role. Note for a 12 man server, just delete one of the attack fade/onos, which makes little difference, and for larger servers increase the amount of suport units as needed.
<u>The unbeatable alien team as follows (each players role)</u>
Support players
<u>Player 1. </u>Web Gorge - bassically makes jps useless or vunerable as they are forced to weld, can heal the hive, can support attacking units with web and heal. (A good web gorge is one of the major factors in the aliens power in co). A web gorge is the ultimate support unit for marine spawn camping aswell.
<u>Player 2.</u> Umbra/Primal Scream lerk - supports attacking units, can make level 10 onos near invicible. Will generally aid attacking units. Can also umbra hive.
Attacking/support
<u>Player 3.</u> Xeno Skulk - The ultimate defence against hive attacking JP'rs, can also use other upgrades and become an attacking unit (if being a little weaker then fade/onos)
Attacking
<u>Player 4,5,6 and 7. </u>
<i>This is the biggest inbalance, because aliens can always counter the marines, heres how.</i>
The rest of the team fade, but only to level 8. Each level 8 fade should have these upgrades, cele, cara, regen, hive 2. Once each fade has reached level 8, save the last 2 levels, do not use them untill.....
<u>Marines have lots of JP'rs</u>
Level 8 fades get focus. The umbra lerk can now use spores to reduce armour levels making JP'r very vunerable to focus fades. Lerk can umbra hive and xeno skulk will also defend the hive against attacking JP'rs. Fades can also go on the offensive. Web gorges will force them to get welders, which stops higher level heavy weapons.
<u>Marines have HA train</u>
The level 8 fades go onos, they have hive 2 so they have stomp, they also have umbra support and web gorge. Onos stomp, devour, half the marine team gone in a second, umbra/primal scream lerk supports while onos gore the remaining HA. Web gorge forces welder use.
The alien team may wish to have one or two of its attacking units as focus fade if there are a few JP'rs or just wish to hit and run the HA (forcing them to reload often)
gg
your opinions please
The only way marines will win combat is within the first 5 minutes, they rarely win after the first 5 minutes, heres why.
I play on a 14 man server, no co plugins. If the alien team did this they will not lose, I will go through each players specific role. Note for a 12 man server, just delete one of the attack fade/onos, which makes little difference, and for larger servers increase the amount of suport units as needed.
<u>The unbeatable alien team as follows (each players role)</u>
Support players
<u>Player 1. </u>Web Gorge - bassically makes jps useless or vunerable as they are forced to weld, can heal the hive, can support attacking units with web and heal. (A good web gorge is one of the major factors in the aliens power in co). A web gorge is the ultimate support unit for marine spawn camping aswell.
<u>Player 2.</u> Umbra/Primal Scream lerk - supports attacking units, can make level 10 onos near invicible. Will generally aid attacking units. Can also umbra hive.
Attacking/support
<u>Player 3.</u> Xeno Skulk - The ultimate defence against hive attacking JP'rs, can also use other upgrades and become an attacking unit (if being a little weaker then fade/onos)
Attacking
<u>Player 4,5,6 and 7. </u>
<i>This is the biggest inbalance, because aliens can always counter the marines, heres how.</i>
The rest of the team fade, but only to level 8. Each level 8 fade should have these upgrades, cele, cara, regen, hive 2. Once each fade has reached level 8, save the last 2 levels, do not use them untill.....
<u>Marines have lots of JP'rs</u>
Level 8 fades get focus. The umbra lerk can now use spores to reduce armour levels making JP'r very vunerable to focus fades. Lerk can umbra hive and xeno skulk will also defend the hive against attacking JP'rs. Fades can also go on the offensive. Web gorges will force them to get welders, which stops higher level heavy weapons.
<u>Marines have HA train</u>
The level 8 fades go onos, they have hive 2 so they have stomp, they also have umbra support and web gorge. Onos stomp, devour, half the marine team gone in a second, umbra/primal scream lerk supports while onos gore the remaining HA. Web gorge forces welder use.
The alien team may wish to have one or two of its attacking units as focus fade if there are a few JP'rs or just wish to hit and run the HA (forcing them to reload often)
gg
your opinions please
Comments
The problem is marines dont have anything aliens cant counter.
Focus and spores > JP + resuply
Onos > HA
Also marines get even get as powerfull as they get in classic, but aliens can get hell of alot more powerfull then in classic.
Thats the 2 main problems.
Combat is supposed to be a fast paced action game so it's fine. It's just not much fun to be marine in long games (15+ minutes time limit) when aliens get some (eg. 3 fades, 2 oni and so on) higher evolutions.
My opinion: Time limit should be hardcoded and cc removed.
I used to see you play combat and i dont think Combat is unbalanced, it depends of the players and how they use their skills.
I didnt say that you are a bad player, that is not what i ment.
I mean that maybe that is you who are maybe "too good" for the others.
A example:
5 noobs vs 1 elite.
Who is going to win?
And btw, Onos maybe are strong, but they are big and in most cases always get blocked by other players.
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Id like to say that your whole opininon fails to start. where have you seen team oriented co_ players when you cant nowdays even find them from ns_? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Other problem is quite same teams are _NEVER_ Equal, as some1 said, xxx noobs vs 1 elite is actual quite often found situtation nowdays too....
and those few elite servers are drop on water......
That is why aliens always win competative games.
wrong
at the very most, a player will respawn with about 40 resources worth of equipment, not counting upgrades as a marine. For a fade, that's 50 res already, and 75 res as an onos, not counting upgrades and the fact they can stack defensive upgrades, which is a massive boost for Fades in particular (cara + regen + metabolise...)
In a JP friendly map, all it takes is a single JP marine to take out 40% off the hive. With 2-3, it's almost always GG unless there is an umbra lerk or someone super-skulked to get a web gorge without surrendering too much EXP to the marines for their dreaded SGs.
Is combat balanced? Probably not since it's using classic units in a situation where it becomes rather difficult to counter individually powerful units when cost and standard strategy becomes of no consideration. Was it designed for 14 player servers? Heck no. From my understanding, it was intended to be a game mode while there aren't enough people to form a proper game, and a 7vs7 situation should be large enough for a classic game. Sad but true.
I would go on a rant and rave about CO mode and how it relates to classic mode, but this is not the thread to conduct such a conversation.
Way to imbalanced imo
In fact, on teams with equal skill(even though it rarely happens), its more of a case that marines overpower aliens, BUT aliens have the advantage of time. I'd say a heightening of the timelimit needs to be in place, like 15-20 minutes. Almost always, when the teams are close to equal, the marines are ABOUT to win...then time ends. And tahdah, they lose.
I didnt say that you are a bad player, that is not what i ment.
I mean that maybe that is you who are maybe "too good" for the others.
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auw thanks man your making me blush <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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Id like to say that your whole opininon fails to start. where have you seen team oriented co_ players when you cant nowdays even find them from ns_? <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Other problem is quite same teams are _NEVER_ Equal, as some1 said, xxx noobs vs 1 elite is actual quite often found situtation nowdays too....
and those few elite servers are drop on water...... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I know this mate, but when you design a game (or a sub game in this case) you have to assume that both teams will be equal in skill and then balance the game around that, what Im saying is, in combat if both teams have equal skill, aliens have a massive advantage every time.
Another thing, youd also have to assume, on a public server anyway, that the skill is going to be evened out across both team (unless it stack, but thats another topic).
Just got 60-5 as fade in co just now, and the guys I was playing were not noobs believe me.
Actaully, WHAT I AM SAYING??? COMBAT IS FINE LEAVE IT <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In fact, on teams with equal skill(even though it rarely happens), its more of a case that marines overpower aliens, BUT aliens have the advantage of time. I'd say a heightening of the timelimit needs to be in place, like 15-20 minutes. Almost always, when the teams are close to equal, the marines are ABOUT to win...then time ends. And tahdah, they lose. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
shotguns counter anything at level 3, especially if you have the jetpack. the gl is what makes the game horrible right now in co_. spam the spawn in co_ and its gg especially when marines camp the cc and go right for the gl. aliens have little exp if the marines can aim and therefore are stuck being low lifeforms and then without a wave spawn or invincibility its gg.
if time runs out, too bad. you have an objective to eliminate the aliens within the time limit. i wouldn't mind seeing it go the other way once in a while though.
if the aliens and marines are equal in skill, then a timelimit increase shouldn't matter. whether the marines get one or two hits on the hive, or firefights in neutral hallways, or aliens get close to the cc its probably just gonna stay like that. unless a fade or a jp'er can get into the opposing base and hit the chair/hive, then that disrupts the flow.
yes, co_ may be unbalanced, but it isnt quite as horrible as people make it out to be.
haha <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
In fact, on teams with equal skill(even though it rarely happens), its more of a case that marines overpower aliens, BUT aliens have the advantage of time. I'd say a heightening of the timelimit needs to be in place, like 15-20 minutes. Almost always, when the teams are close to equal, the marines are ABOUT to win...then time ends. And tahdah, they lose. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another way to fix that is instead of boosting the default timelimit, make it so that successful hits on the hive increase the time (like 30-60 seconds added per 1000 damage or something)
That way, games which are going nowhere (aka stalemate, deadlock, etc.) end, and games where the marines are managing to hit the hive can still be won by them.
Overall however, CO mode is pretty decently balanced, all things considered. Any discrepancies are due to team skill and the map, really. Some things still need changing, but it's not as unbalanced as you seem to think it is.
Some servers have up to 35 minutes, and usually marines wins.
Aliens and marines win games on equal ratios. It just depends the skills of the marine and alien team.
did you not read about web gorge, umbra the hive focus fades and xeno, or does this JP'r have cloak?
No but seriously if one JP'r can take out the hive the alien team sux.
Alien team may not suck, maybe they are attacking the marine base.
Yesterday, i played as sg/jp marine and i died after and after because i was trying to kill the hive but all the team just camped.
When the timelimit was on 14.15(the timelimit was on 15.00) i rushed the hive with 1 on my team, and when the timelimit was on 14.50, i killed the hive and the alien team didnt suck, they was attacking the marine base and i killed the hive before they killed the CC.
That way, games which are going nowhere (aka stalemate, deadlock, etc.) end, and games where the marines are managing to hit the hive can still be won by them.
Overall however, CO mode is pretty decently balanced, all things considered. Any discrepancies are due to team skill and the map, really. Some things still need changing, but it's not as unbalanced as you seem to think it is. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Another way to fix what's in your first paragraph is simply to <b>eliminate</b> the timelimit. I was happy when there <i>was</i> stalemates, but if the Marines even have a single person at the Alien hive, it's usually game over. I don't think the Hive's ability to heal itself amounts to the fact that it has 3000 less HP than the CC (10000).
This means that co_ maps <u>are</u> unbalanced, for the simple reason that the timelimit usually expires when Marines start to hit the Hive. Rarely will the situation where a single Marine takes down the whole Hive happen (I've done it, only once or twice). I guess your opinion could change depending on how you look upon the situation...
No but seriously if one JP'r can take out the hive the alien team sux. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
----gorges tend not to stay gorges on co_ maps, and less do they unlock their 2nd unlockable skill. bilebomb is almost worthless in co_ so they might as well replace it or switch it with web.
----also, lerks tend to be dying off in co_ maps aside from maps with open hives and large/long hallways.
----many people dont like focus since it slows their attacks and if the rines have armor its basically the same/worse killing rate. also, if the hive is in a relatively open place, jetpackers can get away from fades with focus easier, and even easier with resupply and a fade that doesnt blink swipe very well, like me.
----and with xeno, it turns people off with the fact that you die to kill marines, and unless you're close to the marines and they arent armored then you only weaken them. add speed and mobility of a jp'er and resupply and lev.2/3 armor its harder to kill them.
----it takes just one person to take out the hive/cc. if they are really skilled, then they can do it even with the other team focused on him/her, and then the rest of that player's team can focus on the disctracted team for a win.
----if the jp'er has a gl, then also it's easy to get rid of the aliens since the gl has high damage plus splash radius. 3-4 nades can kill a fade with carapace, and 4 nades will severely cripple an onos.
NAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH?!?!?!?!/?!/1///////111111
ROFLCOPTER
I AM TEH PWNAGE FADE WHO GETS HIT BY 3-4 GRENADES.
the most unbalancing thing in the whole game is that it relies solely on teamplay. and on pubs, there are usually only 3 ppl per team who do.