Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
latest word is "it'll be done when it's done" <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Egads. Considering STALKER looked like it could've gone gold like a year ago this game has got to be freakin' HUGE.
Mmmf that ironsight looks a little cheesy... why's it held out like a foot away from your face?
It looks like Fallout the FPS, TBH. I hope the guy in that game had godmode on though - I certainly hope you can't take that many hits in the real game.
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
the further the weapon is from your face, the more precise the aim is, provided you can maintain stable front-sight focus between the rear posts.. if that makes any sense o_O
<!--QuoteBegin-Zig+Aug 5 2004, 08:20 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zig @ Aug 5 2004, 08:20 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> the further the weapon is from your face, the more precise the aim is, provided you can maintain stable front-sight focus between the rear posts.. if that makes any sense o_O <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well yeah since you have three 'points' (rear sight, forward, and your eye iteslf), the farther out they are the more precise the straight line is. But this guy is running around in grass blowing people up with burst shots... god I hate to see how far he can throw a grenade.
Zig...I am Captain Planet!Join Date: 2002-10-23Member: 1576Members
whatchamean? :o
grenade throwing is pretty realistic at the moment, i think :o
and omg, now that i look at it, the tracer rounds from the helicopter in that HL2 shot are disgusting <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
hey eek, lets see you code, model, skin, and basically create a game that looks better than hl2, then i'll shut up.
i love how you can complain OMG IT LOOKS LIEK BOOGERS, yet i dont see you making super definition quality stuff. i dont see doom 3 going out into citys with sky scrapers and mountains and such, the only thing you probably see in doom 3 is silver corridors. all you have been doing is making biased remarks based against hl2 because "THE BUILDING ISNT CURVY!!", well one of the reasons why hl sold well because it looked good for its age and it didnt require you to get a massive upgrade or something. i'd like to think valve was still going down the path where it looks good but doesnt cream your machine.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Aug 5 2004, 09:01 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Aug 5 2004, 09:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The 'AI' in the E3 demo was scripted - the 'wiggling door' and kicking it in. If that was faked, I don't see much reason to still cling to an idea that valve would never lie to us. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> This is how that worked (An explanation from the VALVe Info thread on the HL2.net forums):
The Combine soldier tried the door, found that it was blocked. The next step in his AI was to find alternate methods of entry. The closest node was the window, so he went to check and see if he could get in there. He saw Gordon there while he was trying to get in, identified him as the target, found that he could attack him from his current position and started shooting.
The second soldier came and, finding that the door was blocked and the window node was already occupied, forced the door.
<!--QuoteBegin-domokun155+Aug 5 2004, 08:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (domokun155 @ Aug 5 2004, 08:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> hey eek, lets see you code, model, skin, and basically create a game that looks better than hl2, then i'll shut up.
i love how you can complain OMG IT LOOKS LIEK BOOGERS, yet i dont see you making super definition quality stuff. i dont see doom 3 going out into citys with sky scrapers and mountains and such, the only thing you probably see in doom 3 is silver corridors. all you have been doing is making biased remarks based against hl2 because "THE BUILDING ISNT CURVY!!", well one of the reasons why hl sold well because it looked good for its age and it didnt require you to get a massive upgrade or something. i'd like to think valve was still going down the path where it looks good but doesnt cream your machine. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Since when do I have to be able to do something better to criticise it? I can identify a piece of **** car when I see it but I can't build a car. You use this 'argument' often? I hope not because it makes you look like a fool.
@ Cfor - The window there was wierd though - if you killed the soldier, the door would still kick itself in. But the fact that they use nodes means it's not 100% unscripted. Was I expecting it 100% unscripted? Hell no, I know that's impossible. But it uses pathnodes, as apparently valve themselves have said about that part, and that means that it's not unscripted combat. If it was unscripted, I'd open Hammer (or whatever editor it'll use), be able to build a building, and the AI wouldn't need any guidance around it.
Bottom line is - The HL2 AI isn't unscripted. Stop saying it is.
well i think its a given fact that if all your doing is whining and not doing anything in their stature of work, then you obviously dont have a right to whine.
I still don't understand why HL2 is cartoony. The ant lions seem to have been recolored for the worse but it's not something that will ruin the game for me. The overall design of the model looks feasable physically rather than cartoony. As for them being very shiny, almost drenched, I don't quite see it myself by to each his own I suppose.
HL2 definatly has scripting, infact i'm sure it's full of it. It does however have some very nice pathfinding AI, ala the striders. That's probably influenced by entities on it's own though. As long as it looks good in game and there is a reasonable amount of replayability, which I fear doom 3 won't have, then I'm happy.
In all I think the singleplayer will be well worth my time as i'm sure doom 3 will be. But really you just can't compare such radically different games.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Aug 5 2004, 09:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Aug 5 2004, 09:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->@ Cfor - The window there was wierd though - if you killed the soldier, the door would still kick itself in. But the fact that they use nodes means it's not 100% unscripted. Was I expecting it 100% unscripted? Hell no, I know that's impossible. But it uses pathnodes, as apparently valve themselves have said about that part, and that means that it's not unscripted combat. If it was unscripted, I'd open Hammer (or whatever editor it'll use), be able to build a building, and the AI wouldn't need any guidance around it.
Bottom line is - The HL2 AI isn't unscripted. Stop saying it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think VALVe has ever said that it's 100% unscripted. I think they meant that the combat wasn't scripted to make everything happen the exact same way each time you play through. Yes, viable cover has nodes, but the AI has to choose if they will move there and when they will move there.
There are different kinds of scripting. People usually mean "unscripted" as "The exact same NPC won't run to the exact same spot each time, at the exact same time as last time, and then die the exact same way again if you replay the level."
domokun your argument makes little sense. EEK is entitled to his own opinion, it may be biased but radical views like that help to point out flaws in the game. There are quite a few "box" buildings in the setting, the game is scripted party, and some of the artwork is plain (bushes/grass). Wow, I guess the game sucks now. No it doesn't, he's simply making points that he doesn't like parts of the graphics.
Some of these things can be explained away, like the buildings which would take up too many polies to model in all the windows. That and many old european buildings are just that plain.
<!--QuoteBegin-enf0rcer+Aug 5 2004, 08:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (enf0rcer @ Aug 5 2004, 08:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I still don't understand why HL2 is cartoony. The ant lions seem to have been recolored for the worse but it's not something that will ruin the game for me. The overall design of the model looks feasable physically rather than cartoony. As for them being very shiny, almost drenched, I don't quite see it myself by to each his own I suppose. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, we were talking about the demo shot on the roof, where they were showing off the render effects. I thought it was wierd how a fleshy, hairy antlion standing there threw off reflection like a bald guy under a spotlight, but apparently that's okay but having a shiney metal corridor in doom 3 isn't. I couldn't see much any shine in the antlion shot offered in the first post, but the color change is just ugh.
Cartoony might not be the best way to describe it, but it's the first word I thought of. Doom 3 is all about atmosphere and horror. Stalker is about photorealism. I don't think HL2 has that much atmosphere, and it's not that photorealistic - it's sorta like Far Cry in a way, and Far Cry was cartoony - the gameplay in Far Cry tried to be realistic, but ultimately the dynamics of it just came off as being John Rambo on an island.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In all I think the singleplayer will be well worth my time as i'm sure doom 3 will be. But really you just can't compare such radically different games.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Probably. I think HL2 will be very fun, I never said it'd be a stupid game. Ever. I've simply said that Doom 3 has much better graphics. You can't deny it: Everything the HL2 engine can render can be done just as well in Doom 3, and more, since Doom 3 features, from what I've seen, a much more complex dynamic lighting engine. HL2 relies on prerendered lighting. As an extension, I also said that the D3 engine looks much better for modding, since it was designed for graphics cards that haven't even been built yet, and thus, would have a longer life.
Apparently I stroked someone's epenis the wrong way because every rabid fanboi on earth just came out of their cave to flame me.
One more thing: For those that are saying 'I want HL2 because it plays on low-end system', for christs sakes, get a new god damn computer. You seen what D3's min requirements are?
"A 1.5-gigahertz Intel Pentium 4 chip or AMD Athlon 1500. 384 megabytes of memory. Two gigabytes of hard drive space. An nVidia GeForce 3 graphics card or better; or an ATI Technologies 8500 or better."
I could build a system like that for $300. If you can't hit those specs, I doubt you'd be able to play HL2 and much more then a 'looks like ****' level. For the record, here's the HL2 requirements:
"1.2 GHz Processor 256MB RAM DirectX 7 level graphics card" (IE: A GeForce 2... dunno ATI equivilent, probably a 7500?)
Wow. Aside from the graphics card (and a quick search found a geforce 3 for $50), these minimum requirements are almsot exactly the same. There goes THAT theory.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Aug 5 2004, 09:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Aug 5 2004, 09:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, we were talking about the demo shot on the roof, where they were showing off the render effects. I thought it was wierd how a fleshy, hairy antlion standing there threw off reflection like a bald guy under a spotlight, but apparently that's okay but having a shiney metal corridor in doom 3 isn't. I couldn't see much any shine in the antlion shot offered in the first post, but the color change is just ugh. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I think that was very heavily exaggerated, considering it was a tech demo for shader effects and such.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Aug 5 2004, 08:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Aug 5 2004, 08:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Apparently I stroked someone's epenis the wrong way because every rabid fanboi on earth just came out of their cave to flame me.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> yes and you can stop stroking mine thank you <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Oh and what is this about HL2 buildings burning down? I heard that if you started a fire it'd spread through the building, but some guys got to playtest part of it and they said the fires never spread through the building at all.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Aug 5 2004, 08:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Aug 5 2004, 08:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> No, we were talking about the demo shot on the roof, where they were showing off the render effects. I thought it was wierd how a fleshy, hairy antlion standing there threw off reflection like a bald guy under a spotlight, but apparently that's okay but having a shiney metal corridor in doom 3 isn't. I couldn't see much any shine in the antlion shot offered in the first post, but the color change is just ugh.
Cartoony might not be the best way to describe it, but it's the first word I thought of. Doom 3 is all about atmosphere and horror. Stalker is about photorealism. I don't think HL2 has that much atmosphere, and it's not that photorealistic - it's sorta like Far Cry in a way, and Far Cry was cartoony - the gameplay in Far Cry tried to be realistic, but ultimately the dynamics of it just came off as being John Rambo on an island. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> oh right, yea that ant guard thing. Yea I agree actually, but I think they did that on purpose as a way of showing off the DX9 effects, the same way the tiles seem wet as well. Thankfully that doesn't actually happen that much in the game from what I've seen. (I hope <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
As for atmosphere I think there are many variations of it. It doesn't have to be suspensfull or scary to be effective. The movies of the trainride in have a lot of 1984-style atmosphere. "Don't drink the water" and all that adds a lot of connection to the situation. As I said I don't like comparing these games too much but meh: I feel that Doom certainly has superior graphics capabilities. How you use it is what counts though. Each engine is designed for different looks though. I'm a fan of the HL2 and Stalker look myself, as opposed to the Doom3/Farcry look which can sometimes overdo it with the specular maps.
In all I think Half-Life 2 will be more bang for the buck, simply because of the online play. Mods add almost endless life to an engine, as we've seen with HL1.
BizZy_9mm_MessiahOld School MemberJoin Date: 2003-07-25Member: 18411Members, Constellation
edited August 2004
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Apparently I stroked someone's epenis the wrong way because every rabid fanboi on earth just came out of their cave to flame me.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-BizZy | 9mm Messiah+Aug 5 2004, 09:15 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BizZy | 9mm Messiah @ Aug 5 2004, 09:15 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Apparently I stroked someone's epenis the wrong way because every rabid fanboi on earth just came out of their cave to flame me.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Owned. Can I quote that in my sig EEK? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't care <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And yes, stuff burning is cool. About the only fun thing in Postal 2 was cheating yourself 999 gasoline and burning stuff.
I just want to clear a few things up, I never said nothing in HL2 is scripted. Never ever said that.
As for the antlion, the reason for the color change is due to lighting, if you have the beta find a antlion and shine your flash light on it. It will turn that purplish color. Must be something to do with the shaders.
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Aug 5 2004, 11:00 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Aug 5 2004, 11:00 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh and what is this about HL2 buildings burning down? I heard that if you started a fire it'd spread through the building, but some guys got to playtest part of it and they said the fires never spread through the building at all. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> My guess: It can happen, but you need to build the stuff you want to burn out of wood. You can't just make it in Hammer like a normal building; you would need to do whatever they do to build the wood doors or whatever.
<!--QuoteBegin-domokun155+Aug 5 2004, 06:39 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (domokun155 @ Aug 5 2004, 06:39 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> how the hell is that revelant? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> look up a bit buddy zig posted videos
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
EEK, your definition of "scripted" vs. "unscripted" is pretty harsh. Think of it this way:
Imagine you are a real person, chasing someone named Gordon Freeman through city streets. Freeman runs into a building and shuts the door.<ul><li>You [evaluate your situation]. {Freeman} went through the <door> which you know how to [open].</li><li>You [open] the <door>, but {fail}.</li><li>You [evaluate your situation]. You see a <window> that you know you can [see through] and [shoot through].</li><li>You [go] to the <window> and {see Freeman}.</li><li>You [attack]</li></ul>Your fellow guard CForrester is also [chasing] {Freeman}. Arriving on the scene,<ul><li>He [evaluates his situation]. {Freeman} went through the <door> which he knows how to [open].</li><li>He [opens] the <door>, but {fails}.</li><li>He [evaluates his situation]. He sees a <window> which he knows he can [see through] and [shoot through]</li><li>He cannot reach the <window> (you are blocking it).</li><li>He [evaluates his situation]. He knows how to [kick in] the <door>.</li><li>He [kicks in] the <door>.</li><li>He [evaluates his situation]. He {sees Freeman}.</li><li>He [attacks]</li></ul> Key: [AI-coded action] || <object that AI recognizes and can interact with> || {trigger for AI behavior X}
The point of this little thing was that "scripted" AI in HL and HL2, as you describe it, is just the way the AI is written. It is not a "scripted sequence" as defined by the industry. Just as you, as a human being, recognize a door in the real word, so the AI must be able to recognize a door in the game. You recognize a door because it has hinges and a handle, or similar. An AI recognizes a door because it has a little flag attached to it that says "door." Effectively in the game, however, there is no difference - the AI is certainly not "scripted" because it needs to be told what a door is. You know you walk on floor, not through walls. So does an AI, because floors have movement nodes and walls do not. That doesn't make every step it takes scripted.
A true example of a scripted sequence is as follows: in HL, you turn a corner and come upon a ground-floor-level tank full of water with a catwalk around it and a shark cage extended above. As you walk in, an Ichthys leaps from the water and grabs a scientist. The scientist screams as he is hauled under water.
Why is this scripted? 1) the scientist took no damage from the Ichthys. <i>At the end of the sequence, a trigger "killed" the scientist.</i> 2) the Ichthys did not physically act upon the scientist in any way. <i>Each individually underwent a unique animation that coincided in time and space.</i> 3) A second scientist, moved to the same place, would not be attacked (unless the script included a trigger to repeat itself if a second scientist presented itself). Given an Ichthys in the water and a scientist at the edge, the Ichthys will not independently decide to grab the scientist.
How could it be made unscripted? The Ichthys would [evaluate its situation], and {see a scientist near the water's edge}. This would trigger it to [drag the target into the water]. It would then [attack the target] until {the target died}.
The difference: any viable target, placed near any body of water containing an Ichthys, would be in danger of being grabbed and dragged under. _____
Compare this to an event (which Valve has said was not scripted) in one of the HL2 videos. A Strider is [pursuing] and [attacking] some {rebel fighters}. Suddenly its {path is blocked}. It [evaluates its situation] and sees a <bridge> in the way. It knows how to [attack] a <building> and destroy it, so it [attacks] the <bridge>. It {fails}. It also knows how to [crawl under] the <bridge>. It [crawls under]. It [evaluates its situation], {sees a rebel fighter}, and [attacks].
The reason it's unscripted is because given any bridge, any Strider would try to blow the bridge up. In the event of failure, it would then try to crawl underneath. A scripted version of the same event would include a trigger to [stop, wait, shoot bridge, wait, duck, walk under bridge, stand]. The unscripted version is {failure} [now what?] [attack] {failure} [now what?] [crawl under] {success!} [now what?] [kill meatpops]. At every step, the Strider is evaluating its options.
It's even possible that two Striders, presented with the same scenario, would react in two different ways. Go back to the guards outside the door. Let's say the guard knows {Freeman is inside}. Perhaps he has a 80% chance of trying the door and a 20% chance of going to the window. Given that he tries the door, he then has a 50/50 chance of either going to the window or trying to break down the door. I don't know if that's actually a feature of HL2 AI, but it could be and would make for an even more organic, life-like performance from the AI.
Anyway, that's my little story of scripted vs. unscripted. In a way, *all* AI is scripted. Given a door, the AI will execute an "open door" script. But the difference is that this definition is a code script, rather than a map script like the Icthys attack. The script is built into the NPC himself. And in that sense, *humans* have scripts, too. When you see a door you need to go through, you execute an "open door" script, too. (:
One big question would be whether the AI scripts can be interrupted. Some usually are interruptable - a patrol script is interrupted by sighting an enemy, for instance. But if a guard is trying to force a door and the player exits another door near him, does he finish the "force door" script before reacting to the player? I hope he stops what he's doing and attacks the player. We'll see!
Yea, but the point was that although it is possible that the AI could do that, the Half-Life 2 demo in which the soldier kicks the door in was scripted as in he MUST MOVE THERE and the door MUST OPEN. No matter what, not because the AI decided to do it because something else was blocking the window.
coilAmateur pirate. Professional monkey. All pance.Join Date: 2002-04-12Member: 424Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
My point was more to explain to EEK what most of the gaming world means by a "scripted sequence" as opposed to an "AI script" (or AI behavior). If that was a scripted sequence, oh well. Used judiciously, they can be extremely effective. The Strider, though, I'm fairly confident was AI behavior and not scripted.
Comments
<a href='http://files.gsc-game.com/st/stlkwlk3_big.mov' target='_blank'>http://files.gsc-game.com/st/stlkwlk3_big.mov</a>
<a href='http://files.gsc-game.com/st/stlkwlk4_big.mov' target='_blank'>http://files.gsc-game.com/st/stlkwlk4_big.mov</a>
latest media as of july 9th.
Mmmf that ironsight looks a little cheesy... why's it held out like a foot away from your face?
It looks like Fallout the FPS, TBH. I hope the guy in that game had godmode on though - I certainly hope you can't take that many hits in the real game.
makes sense when you're holding a rifle, lol.
<a href='http://iadfillvip.xlontech.net/100083/games/stalker/stalker_tr729_wm.zip' target='_blank'>http://iadfillvip.xlontech.net/100083/game...er_tr729_wm.zip</a>
that's the newest vid at oblivion-lost.com, i don't think it's touched the official page yet.
Well yeah since you have three 'points' (rear sight, forward, and your eye iteslf), the farther out they are the more precise the straight line is. But this guy is running around in grass blowing people up with burst shots... god I hate to see how far he can throw a grenade.
grenade throwing is pretty realistic at the moment, i think :o
and omg, now that i look at it, the tracer rounds from the helicopter in that HL2 shot are disgusting <!--emo&:angry:--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/mad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='mad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
i love how you can complain OMG IT LOOKS LIEK BOOGERS, yet i dont see you making super definition quality stuff. i dont see doom 3 going out into citys with sky scrapers and mountains and such, the only thing you probably see in doom 3 is silver corridors. all you have been doing is making biased remarks based against hl2 because "THE BUILDING ISNT CURVY!!", well one of the reasons why hl sold well because it looked good for its age and it didnt require you to get a massive upgrade or something. i'd like to think valve was still going down the path where it looks good but doesnt cream your machine.
This is how that worked (An explanation from the VALVe Info thread on the HL2.net forums):
The Combine soldier tried the door, found that it was blocked. The next step in his AI was to find alternate methods of entry. The closest node was the window, so he went to check and see if he could get in there. He saw Gordon there while he was trying to get in, identified him as the target, found that he could attack him from his current position and started shooting.
The second soldier came and, finding that the door was blocked and the window node was already occupied, forced the door.
i love how you can complain OMG IT LOOKS LIEK BOOGERS, yet i dont see you making super definition quality stuff. i dont see doom 3 going out into citys with sky scrapers and mountains and such, the only thing you probably see in doom 3 is silver corridors. all you have been doing is making biased remarks based against hl2 because "THE BUILDING ISNT CURVY!!", well one of the reasons why hl sold well because it looked good for its age and it didnt require you to get a massive upgrade or something. i'd like to think valve was still going down the path where it looks good but doesnt cream your machine. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Since when do I have to be able to do something better to criticise it? I can identify a piece of **** car when I see it but I can't build a car. You use this 'argument' often? I hope not because it makes you look like a fool.
@ Cfor - The window there was wierd though - if you killed the soldier, the door would still kick itself in. But the fact that they use nodes means it's not 100% unscripted. Was I expecting it 100% unscripted? Hell no, I know that's impossible. But it uses pathnodes, as apparently valve themselves have said about that part, and that means that it's not unscripted combat. If it was unscripted, I'd open Hammer (or whatever editor it'll use), be able to build a building, and the AI wouldn't need any guidance around it.
Bottom line is - The HL2 AI isn't unscripted. Stop saying it is.
HL2 definatly has scripting, infact i'm sure it's full of it. It does however have some very nice pathfinding AI, ala the striders. That's probably influenced by entities on it's own though. As long as it looks good in game and there is a reasonable amount of replayability, which I fear doom 3 won't have, then I'm happy.
In all I think the singleplayer will be well worth my time as i'm sure doom 3 will be. But really you just can't compare such radically different games.
Bottom line is - The HL2 AI isn't unscripted. Stop saying it is.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think VALVe has ever said that it's 100% unscripted. I think they meant that the combat wasn't scripted to make everything happen the exact same way each time you play through. Yes, viable cover has nodes, but the AI has to choose if they will move there and when they will move there.
There are different kinds of scripting. People usually mean "unscripted" as "The exact same NPC won't run to the exact same spot each time, at the exact same time as last time, and then die the exact same way again if you replay the level."
Some of these things can be explained away, like the buildings which would take up too many polies to model in all the windows. That and many old european buildings are just that plain.
No, we were talking about the demo shot on the roof, where they were showing off the render effects. I thought it was wierd how a fleshy, hairy antlion standing there threw off reflection like a bald guy under a spotlight, but apparently that's okay but having a shiney metal corridor in doom 3 isn't. I couldn't see much any shine in the antlion shot offered in the first post, but the color change is just ugh.
Cartoony might not be the best way to describe it, but it's the first word I thought of. Doom 3 is all about atmosphere and horror. Stalker is about photorealism. I don't think HL2 has that much atmosphere, and it's not that photorealistic - it's sorta like Far Cry in a way, and Far Cry was cartoony - the gameplay in Far Cry tried to be realistic, but ultimately the dynamics of it just came off as being John Rambo on an island.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->In all I think the singleplayer will be well worth my time as i'm sure doom 3 will be. But really you just can't compare such radically different games.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Probably. I think HL2 will be very fun, I never said it'd be a stupid game. Ever. I've simply said that Doom 3 has much better graphics. You can't deny it: Everything the HL2 engine can render can be done just as well in Doom 3, and more, since Doom 3 features, from what I've seen, a much more complex dynamic lighting engine. HL2 relies on prerendered lighting. As an extension, I also said that the D3 engine looks much better for modding, since it was designed for graphics cards that haven't even been built yet, and thus, would have a longer life.
Apparently I stroked someone's epenis the wrong way because every rabid fanboi on earth just came out of their cave to flame me.
One more thing: For those that are saying 'I want HL2 because it plays on low-end system', for christs sakes, get a new god damn computer. You seen what D3's min requirements are?
"A 1.5-gigahertz Intel Pentium 4 chip or AMD Athlon 1500.
384 megabytes of memory.
Two gigabytes of hard drive space.
An nVidia GeForce 3 graphics card or better; or an ATI Technologies 8500 or better."
I could build a system like that for $300. If you can't hit those specs, I doubt you'd be able to play HL2 and much more then a 'looks like ****' level. For the record, here's the HL2 requirements:
"1.2 GHz Processor
256MB RAM
DirectX 7 level graphics card" (IE: A GeForce 2... dunno ATI equivilent, probably a 7500?)
Wow. Aside from the graphics card (and a quick search found a geforce 3 for $50), these minimum requirements are almsot exactly the same. There goes THAT theory.
I think that was very heavily exaggerated, considering it was a tech demo for shader effects and such.
Apparently I stroked someone's epenis the wrong way because every rabid fanboi on earth just came out of their cave to flame me.
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yes and you can stop stroking mine thank you <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Cartoony might not be the best way to describe it, but it's the first word I thought of. Doom 3 is all about atmosphere and horror. Stalker is about photorealism. I don't think HL2 has that much atmosphere, and it's not that photorealistic - it's sorta like Far Cry in a way, and Far Cry was cartoony - the gameplay in Far Cry tried to be realistic, but ultimately the dynamics of it just came off as being John Rambo on an island. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
oh right, yea that ant guard thing. Yea I agree actually, but I think they did that on purpose as a way of showing off the DX9 effects, the same way the tiles seem wet as well. Thankfully that doesn't actually happen that much in the game from what I've seen. (I hope <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
As for atmosphere I think there are many variations of it. It doesn't have to be suspensfull or scary to be effective. The movies of the trainride in have a lot of 1984-style atmosphere. "Don't drink the water" and all that adds a lot of connection to the situation. As I said I don't like comparing these games too much but meh: I feel that Doom certainly has superior graphics capabilities. How you use it is what counts though. Each engine is designed for different looks though. I'm a fan of the HL2 and Stalker look myself, as opposed to the Doom3/Farcry look which can sometimes overdo it with the specular maps.
In all I think Half-Life 2 will be more bang for the buck, simply because of the online play. Mods add almost endless life to an engine, as we've seen with HL1.
Owned. Can I quote that in my sig EEK?
Owned. Can I quote that in my sig EEK? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't care <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
And yes, stuff burning is cool. About the only fun thing in Postal 2 was cheating yourself 999 gasoline and burning stuff.
As for the antlion, the reason for the color change is due to lighting, if you have the beta find a antlion and shine your flash light on it. It will turn that purplish color. Must be something to do with the shaders.
My guess: It can happen, but you need to build the stuff you want to burn out of wood. You can't just make it in Hammer like a normal building; you would need to do whatever they do to build the wood doors or whatever.
look up a bit buddy zig posted videos
Imagine you are a real person, chasing someone named Gordon Freeman through city streets. Freeman runs into a building and shuts the door.<ul><li>You [evaluate your situation]. {Freeman} went through the <door> which you know how to [open].</li><li>You [open] the <door>, but {fail}.</li><li>You [evaluate your situation]. You see a <window> that you know you can [see through] and [shoot through].</li><li>You [go] to the <window> and {see Freeman}.</li><li>You [attack]</li></ul>Your fellow guard CForrester is also [chasing] {Freeman}. Arriving on the scene,<ul><li>He [evaluates his situation]. {Freeman} went through the <door> which he knows how to [open].</li><li>He [opens] the <door>, but {fails}.</li><li>He [evaluates his situation]. He sees a <window> which he knows he can [see through] and [shoot through]</li><li>He cannot reach the <window> (you are blocking it).</li><li>He [evaluates his situation]. He knows how to [kick in] the <door>.</li><li>He [kicks in] the <door>.</li><li>He [evaluates his situation]. He {sees Freeman}.</li><li>He [attacks]</li></ul>
Key: [AI-coded action] || <object that AI recognizes and can interact with> || {trigger for AI behavior X}
The point of this little thing was that "scripted" AI in HL and HL2, as you describe it, is just the way the AI is written. It is not a "scripted sequence" as defined by the industry. Just as you, as a human being, recognize a door in the real word, so the AI must be able to recognize a door in the game. You recognize a door because it has hinges and a handle, or similar. An AI recognizes a door because it has a little flag attached to it that says "door." Effectively in the game, however, there is no difference - the AI is certainly not "scripted" because it needs to be told what a door is. You know you walk on floor, not through walls. So does an AI, because floors have movement nodes and walls do not. That doesn't make every step it takes scripted.
A true example of a scripted sequence is as follows: in HL, you turn a corner and come upon a ground-floor-level tank full of water with a catwalk around it and a shark cage extended above. As you walk in, an Ichthys leaps from the water and grabs a scientist. The scientist screams as he is hauled under water.
Why is this scripted?
1) the scientist took no damage from the Ichthys. <i>At the end of the sequence, a trigger "killed" the scientist.</i>
2) the Ichthys did not physically act upon the scientist in any way. <i>Each individually underwent a unique animation that coincided in time and space.</i>
3) A second scientist, moved to the same place, would not be attacked (unless the script included a trigger to repeat itself if a second scientist presented itself). Given an Ichthys in the water and a scientist at the edge, the Ichthys will not independently decide to grab the scientist.
How could it be made unscripted? The Ichthys would [evaluate its situation], and {see a scientist near the water's edge}. This would trigger it to [drag the target into the water]. It would then [attack the target] until {the target died}.
The difference: any viable target, placed near any body of water containing an Ichthys, would be in danger of being grabbed and dragged under.
_____
Compare this to an event (which Valve has said was not scripted) in one of the HL2 videos. A Strider is [pursuing] and [attacking] some {rebel fighters}. Suddenly its {path is blocked}. It [evaluates its situation] and sees a <bridge> in the way. It knows how to [attack] a <building> and destroy it, so it [attacks] the <bridge>. It {fails}. It also knows how to [crawl under] the <bridge>. It [crawls under]. It [evaluates its situation], {sees a rebel fighter}, and [attacks].
The reason it's unscripted is because given any bridge, any Strider would try to blow the bridge up. In the event of failure, it would then try to crawl underneath. A scripted version of the same event would include a trigger to [stop, wait, shoot bridge, wait, duck, walk under bridge, stand]. The unscripted version is {failure} [now what?] [attack] {failure} [now what?] [crawl under] {success!} [now what?] [kill meatpops]. At every step, the Strider is evaluating its options.
It's even possible that two Striders, presented with the same scenario, would react in two different ways. Go back to the guards outside the door. Let's say the guard knows {Freeman is inside}. Perhaps he has a 80% chance of trying the door and a 20% chance of going to the window. Given that he tries the door, he then has a 50/50 chance of either going to the window or trying to break down the door. I don't know if that's actually a feature of HL2 AI, but it could be and would make for an even more organic, life-like performance from the AI.
Anyway, that's my little story of scripted vs. unscripted. In a way, *all* AI is scripted. Given a door, the AI will execute an "open door" script. But the difference is that this definition is a code script, rather than a map script like the Icthys attack. The script is built into the NPC himself. And in that sense, *humans* have scripts, too. When you see a door you need to go through, you execute an "open door" script, too. (:
One big question would be whether the AI scripts can be interrupted. Some usually are interruptable - a patrol script is interrupted by sighting an enemy, for instance. But if a guard is trying to force a door and the player exits another door near him, does he finish the "force door" script before reacting to the player? I hope he stops what he's doing and attacks the player. We'll see!