This argument is ancient, and nothing new or meaningful could possibly come of it. Still, I guess I might as well pitch in once again.
The reason you don't often see knife kills is because people think they're useless. Many think it's a better idea to jump around reloading than switch to a knife. That doesn't make it so. The knife is a rather powerful weapon that's guaranteed to kill the skulk in 2 swipes if you've shot him even a little bit, and quite often it's 1 by the time he reaches you. Don't misunderstand the argument here; we're not saying that a knife is superior to bite in a 1v1 straight duel, though it probably is more of a match than it should be. The knife is, however, too strong in the way that it's used as a finishing attack when the guns fail. When a skulk is wounded to the extent that it takes 2 or less knife swings to kill it by the time it reaches you, and you'd have to be completely incompetent with an LMG for that not to be the case, then making the kill is not difficult at all.
The most common argument of all knife supporters is the superior range one. Frankly that's ridiculous. First of all the actual difference in their range is small enough that very few players can measure it on the run and stop short of the knife's range. After that you have to take into account factors like the marine jump dodging around as they always are, and of course the marine moving forward himself to close distance. Then add all of that onto the fact that the skulk thought he was charging a marine with a gun up until the very last second. He thought that the closer he got the more of an advantage he would have, as is supposed to be the case. And then in the very last second the marine whips out a knife, and you honestly expect me to believe that this skulk is going to react in a split second and pull out of range, <b>to the exact spot where it can bite but the knife can no longer reach it?</b> That's insane, and I'd like to see even a single person who makes this argument pull it off on a reliable basis.
And whether or not you can do that, it's simply ridiculous that the skulk has to take these precautionary measures just to survive a confrontation with a small knife. Think about any movie featuring this sort of alien; are they ever depicted as recoiling in fear as soon as the victim pulls out a small dagger? Skulks are supposed to have a huge advantage in melee range. The knife is not supposed to be a feasible anti-alien weapon, it's just there as an absolute last-ditch attempt with low probability of success. When fighting against guns Skulks are trying to get as close to the marine as they can to maximize their advantage, and the marine shouldn't be able to completely reverse the situation just by pulling out a melee weapon. It's about preserving the respective roles of the two teams.
Random thought. Halve knife RoF. Give it blast damage. Leave the damage amount the same. Now it takes exactly the same amount of time to kill a structure (60 dmg a swipe, half as many swipes over time) but although it still deals decent damage to a skulk (30, just as it is now) it now takes more skill to get in the killing blow. So people can't just duck and hold +attack to hide behind a wall of 'knife-spam' as it were. This gives the skulk a chance to attack inbetween swipes and finish the marine off. Wouldn't this make all side of the debate happy?
The Lieutenant and the Janitor may be on to something. I certainly wouldn't have any objections if the RoF was halved and blast damage given.
I mean, hell, when *I* can get in a lucky knife kill on a decent fade, something's wrong, and I don't care how injured the fade was before stepping into range.
Hm. Would the person who set up that range comparison thing, any chance I could convince you to do that for gorge heal-spray, as well as the other melee attacks of the different aliens?
Also, I wonder if there's any way where we could visually compare the width of the attacks (as opposed to the height/length)
In general from playing around with the glass wall, I've found that the area of effect of the bite and knife attacks are just about the same. There's no way to test healspray, as it doesn't do the sort of damage that causes the wall to break. I'll check the area of effect of the other attacks later on and try and get some screenshots up. (at work at the moment)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If you are letting yourself getting knifed its your own damn fault. The bite range of the skulk is superior to the knife, so stay out of his melee reach.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yeah, if you managed to survive a marine unloading both his primary and secondary clip at you and then he pulls out a tertiary weapon that rivals your primary weapon with only a fraction of inch difference in effective range and he manages to kill you, then it's your own... damn... fault... /sarcasm
Why do some people enjoy having an unbalanced game? Marine ranged weaps are already more powerful than any alien weapon, why give them an equivalent melee weapon? Knife damage was increased to help kill structures faster, not to rival skulks in melee damage potential. That was an unexpected side effect.
Knife should be knocked down in alien dmg, but kept the same vs structures. Either that or reduce its RoF. The fact that marine knifing is much faster than a skulk's bite means that even if a rine misses his first swing, he can get in a second one while a skulks only gets one bite chance.
Marines are not ninjas; nerf the knife! <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
If a marine can't kill a skulk with a potential 700 points of damage in his LMG *AND* pistol, he should have NO CHANCE with the knife at all. If a skulk can run a marine out of bullets, that's it, the marine should die, and have 0% chance of surviving at all.
<!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Jun 18 2004, 03:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Jun 18 2004, 03:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Random thought. Halve knife RoF. Give it blast damage. Leave the damage amount the same. Now it takes exactly the same amount of time to kill a structure (60 dmg a swipe, half as many swipes over time) but although it still deals decent damage to a skulk (30, just as it is now) it now takes more skill to get in the killing blow. So people can't just duck and hold +attack to hide behind a wall of 'knife-spam' as it were. This gives the skulk a chance to attack inbetween swipes and finish the marine off. Wouldn't this make all side of the debate happy? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> I wholeheartedly endorse this idea.
<!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Jun 18 2004, 03:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Jun 18 2004, 03:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Random thought. Halve knife RoF. Give it blast damage. Leave the damage amount the same. Now it takes exactly the same amount of time to kill a structure (60 dmg a swipe, half as many swipes over time) but although it still deals decent damage to a skulk (30, just as it is now) it now takes more skill to get in the killing blow. So people can't just duck and hold +attack to hide behind a wall of 'knife-spam' as it were. This gives the skulk a chance to attack inbetween swipes and finish the marine off. Wouldn't this make all side of the debate happy?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, this is a good idea. And this would sway my support away from the knife is fine. only problem *might* be animations? or would it being slowed down make it not a problem?
This would still allow a skilled knifer a small chance against a skulk, but only if the skulk is unskilled, because its a simple matter of chomp choimp dead and no more marine problem. I do not care how much this marine can crackhop, just crackhop better than the marine, knife has knockback too. (I understand insane knockback bug is fixed, that will make a lot of frustrating bs moments better).
The knife has a strong psychological effect of basically people not wanting to get knifed or just the omg he can stab me now instead of shooting me with just 2 more pistol bullets. I say that the skulk just is not gonna win a standoff against a marine, and it never should. Marine = standoff campability (no its not a typo =) ), skulk is not on par with a marine in those circumstances, you must retreat with haste in that situation. If you get pinned down, your screwed either way.
You might even add an armor bonus to carapace that cuts knife damage in half(only knife), to make carapace have a bonus like that.
I think a lot of the problem is you see a skulk charging at a marine, just trying to walk right up to the marine in the open or dark corner or whatever, where he can easily see you coming. That doesn't work unless you can blitz the marine while bunnyhopping, with a buddy. If the marine is not a rambo, that complicates things further, and makes it even more desirable to have bob2 hanging with you read to chomp their heads off.
A skulk, in my opinion, should be retreating around a corner, darting back into vents, and generally stalking a marine. The difficulty is the brightness of maps and the prevalence of people using gamma jackers way beyond intended use. There are people who need it, but there are so many abusers its just not right, it skews the balance of several alien abilities. I think there needs to be a way to make it so people don't exploit powerstrip to gain a blatently obvious advantage; Powerstrip was never intended for enhancing your gameplay BEYOND the average persons display settings.
Okay so I was going off topic big time, but yea sneaky skulk = very difficult to achieve, especially with the lack of "atmosphere" which is pretty much dark areas. It does not stay "scary" or "atmospheric" if you make playing the game an obcession.
So to wrap it up.. hardly anyone these days thinks that sneaky around as a vanilla skulk is at all possible. The examples used in attempting to prove the knife unbalanced are full of opinion interlaced with fact such as damage done and then "its only an inch difference in range" opinion data. That just muddles the issue. I like the knife damage = 30 blast damage w/ half RoF, I suggest not lowering things to lesser skill requirements just because everyone cries "THINK OF THE PUBS!", and finally, powerstrip is so abusable... I suggest perhaps a patch for people who have darker moniters that raises it to an acceptable level, and make the effects of too high gamma totally unbearable?
<!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Jun 18 2004, 03:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Jun 18 2004, 03:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Random thought. Halve knife RoF. Give it blast damage. Leave the damage amount the same. Now it takes exactly the same amount of time to kill a structure (60 dmg a swipe, half as many swipes over time) but although it still deals decent damage to a skulk (30, just as it is now) it now takes more skill to get in the killing blow. So people can't just duck and hold +attack to hide behind a wall of 'knife-spam' as it were. This gives the skulk a chance to attack inbetween swipes and finish the marine off. Wouldn't this make all side of the debate happy? <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Random thought huh?
Anyways why is it when I'm a gorge and someone whips out a knife and starts swinging the gorge practically warps ten feet in the knife and sticks the marine like glue. I swear to god everytime I gorge and someone is knifing I warp a coupld feet to them and absolutly cant move at all. If i do move I mysteriously jump back to the marine.
SewlekThe programmer previously known as SchimmelJoin Date: 2003-05-13Member: 16247Members, NS2 Developer, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Gold, Subnautica Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Random thought. Halve knife RoF. Give it blast damage. Leave the damage amount the same. Now it takes exactly the same amount of time to kill a structure (60 dmg a swipe, half as many swipes over time) but although it still deals decent damage to a skulk (30, just as it is now) it now takes more skill to get in the killing blow. So people can't just duck and hold +attack to hide behind a wall of 'knife-spam' as it were. This gives the skulk a chance to attack inbetween swipes and finish the marine off. Wouldn't this make all side of the debate happy?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That still allows marine to play Raging Bull. Skulk comes at him, he jumps sideways and knifes, thats what usually what happens. Its all about timing, and unfortunetly for the skulk, time is not on his side.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That still allows marine to play Raging Bull. Skulk comes at him, he jumps sideways and knifes, thats what usually what happens. Its all about timing, and unfortunetly for the skulk, time is not on his side. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course, with half the rate of fire, the marine timing has to be extremely precise. And heck, if they have timing like that, they deserve the knife kill.
Of course, we're working on theory here, so this may or may not hold true if tested in real combat situations.
<!--QuoteBegin-semi-psychotic+Jun 21 2004, 08:31 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (semi-psychotic @ Jun 21 2004, 08:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> That still allows marine to play Raging Bull. Skulk comes at him, he jumps sideways and knifes, thats what usually what happens. Its all about timing, and unfortunetly for the skulk, time is not on his side. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course, with half the rate of fire, the marine timing has to be extremely precise. And heck, if they have timing like that, they deserve the knife kill.
Of course, we're working on theory here, so this may or may not hold true if tested in real combat situations. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Actually, I find it really easy to take a single slash after putting a few bullets into a skulk, since I know he's almost dead. I do it to impress myself, but hey, knife is overpowered, so I shouldn't be impressed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If a marine can't kill a skulk with a potential 700 points of damage in his LMG *AND* pistol, he should have NO CHANCE with the knife at all. If a skulk can run a marine out of bullets, that's it, the marine should die, and have 0% chance of surviving at all. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
true, but (speaking for myself) thats only for one skulk. my knife comes out after i usually kill something and have no ammo in either gun loaded and there is a skulk coming after me
Don't nerf the knife. It's hard enough to aim as is, even I have trouble figuring out where to aim with it (I used to be a knife master in 1.04). Besides, as mentioned before, if you can't use the 700 points of damage to kill something with less than 100 combined health (more than 700 with weapon upgrades), then you have problems. Even then, a knifer is easy to kill, back up for a second and time your bite, and take advantage of the bite's range.
The Skulk is about the size of a small dog. The Knife is 6-7" of quasi-serrated razor-sharp goodness ended in a wicket point. If a Skulk is trying to walk up and bite you, and you take a swipe with that thing right across (and most likely THROUGH) his snout, it's damn well going to hurt. Why would a Marine bother to swing a small combat knife with such speed and force as to require a two-handed grip? It's a combat KNIFE, not a SWORD.
The Knife is fine as is. It takes three slices to kill a Skulk and only two for an unupgraded Marine. The Rate of Fire is probably the same, but the Skulk is a much smaller target, has better maneuverability, and the Marine has a better chance of hitting if he's ducking (in which case he moves at a snail's pace.)
The solution to Marines in the corner is PARASITE! Gakgakgak.
<!--QuoteBegin-Rushakra+Jun 21 2004, 10:40 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Rushakra @ Jun 21 2004, 10:40 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The Skulk is about the size of a small dog. The Knife is 6-7" of quasi-serrated razor-sharp goodness ended in a wicket point. If a Skulk is trying to walk up and bite you, and you take a swipe with that thing right across (and most likely THROUGH) his snout, it's damn well going to hurt. Why would a Marine bother to swing a small combat knife with such speed and force as to require a two-handed grip? It's a combat KNIFE, not a SWORD.
The Knife is fine as is. It takes three slices to kill a Skulk and only two for an unupgraded Marine. The Rate of Fire is probably the same, but the Skulk is a much smaller target, has better maneuverability, and the Marine has a better chance of hitting if he's ducking (in which case he moves at a snail's pace.)
The solution to Marines in the corner is PARASITE! Gakgakgak. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Please remember when trying to make realism arguments that according to the story, you're actually fighting what is essentially animated fungus. Arguments of the knife should hurt are essentially meaningless.
Going by your logic of swing for swing, we also see that it should only take nine parasites to kill a marine, yes?
Aliens != Marines.
Marine strength is supposedly in distance combat. Alien strength is supposedly in close-quarters combat (CQC)
So please explain to me why the team with the <i>strength</i> in CQC is the one that should back off when the other pulls their CQC weapon?
<!--QuoteBegin-BobTheJanitor+Jun 18 2004, 02:35 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (BobTheJanitor @ Jun 18 2004, 02:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Random thought. Halve knife RoF. Give it blast damage. Leave the damage amount the same. Now it takes exactly the same amount of time to kill a structure (60 dmg a swipe, half as many swipes over time) but although it still deals decent damage to a skulk (30, just as it is now) it now takes more skill to get in the killing blow. So people can't just duck and hold +attack to hide behind a wall of 'knife-spam' as it were. This gives the skulk a chance to attack inbetween swipes and finish the marine off. Wouldn't this make all side of the debate happy? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I disagree...I think it should be half knife damage, same rof, and blast damage. This way you still have it taking down structures in the same amount of time but it drastically reduces its effectiveness against skulks (which is what we want). cutting the rof in half doesn't do a whole lot I'd be tempted to say. they can still pull out that knife right when you get close and stab you since youre most likely already weak. it's not so hard to hit with the knife, the rof just makes it a little easier to simply spam it.
In the manual: <i>"against the Kharaa, this is a very last resort. Better to retreat than engage the Kharaa in melee."</i>
A stock skulk kills a stock marine in two bites. A marine can knife a skulk in 3 attacks. After marines research armor, it gets even worse.
I am more than happy to take a knife into combat. If I run out of bullets, I actually stand a chance at a skulk with the knife if I jump around just right and avoid it's bites. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Again, there are worse problems than "OMG OVERPOWERED KNIFE h4x"
If you get knifed, its your own damn lack of skill, not the games fault.
IF you get knifed when the knife damaged is lower, its even more embarassing, and still your own damn fault.
which would be true.. if it wasn't for the fact that marines also have their rifle, and their pistol.. and the knife which is comparitively equal to the bite.
then again.. its as if this thread is on an eternal loop.. the same questions asked, the same answers given.
Seriously though, if a big biting dog jumps at you, and you treat him to a big ol' knife down his throat, that lucky dog would be dead. I would say a knife would be a last resort weapon, yes, but it should hardly be nerfed. Anyways, why shouldn't knifes be apar with the skulk bite. Its a life saver, and the idea to lower RoF would be silly, i mean, how fast are you able to swing a knife... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Skulk melee wins, it takes 2 bites to kill a marine, three swipes to kill a skulk, and marines even have more HP
I don't see a problem.
Knives are fine the way they are, if anything they need to be stronger. It's a bladed metal vs a tiny fleshy chinchilla with fangs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and the knife which is comparitively equal to the bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin-CrS+Jun 25 2004, 05:22 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (CrS @ Jun 25 2004, 05:22 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Seriously though, if a big biting dog jumps at you, and you treat him to a big ol' knife down his throat, that lucky dog would be dead. I would say a knife would be a last resort weapon, yes, but it should hardly be nerfed. Anyways, why shouldn't knifes be apar with the skulk bite. Its a life saver, and the idea to lower RoF would be silly, i mean, how fast are you able to swing a knife... <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> First, all realism arguments are crap for a number of reasons. 1. Gameplay > Realism. That's really all you need right there, but in case someone can't wrap their head around that, we'll continue.
2. Kharaa == bacterium aka fungus. How much damage will cutting a chunk out of a piece of fungus actually do it? Unless you cut it clean in two, the answer is "not much"
3. Kharaa == fungus designed specifically for combat. Think about that. These creatures emerge from the hive specifically to protect it and with no other purpose. They don't need to worry about eating, sleeping, crapping, reproducing or all the other myriad things our bodies are devoted to. It's <i>all</i> tissue devoted to the task of ripping you a new one. Should this be something that needs to back-off when a marine pulls out a pig-sticker?
Now, for your particular realism argument about RoF Speed != Power Typically, when you flail a knife or other object around like a ginsu blade, you do so at the expense of concentrated power in each strike. For a demonstration of this, take an axe out to the wood pile and try quickly hacking away at a log. See how much damage you do. Once you've done that, set up another log and take your time to line up and really power the axe into it. Compare. Chances are you'll have a lot more surface damage on the hacked log, but a good, deep cut in the powered log.
<!--QuoteBegin-Firewater+Jun 22 2004, 01:40 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Firewater @ Jun 22 2004, 01:40 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Again, there are worse problems than "OMG OVERPOWERED KNIFE h4x" <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> So, you agree that this is a problem. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Maybe knife damage should be INCREASED. But ROF decreased so that there is more time between attacks. Would make it easier to time a skulk bite between attacks, would make marines a little more hestitant to walk in knife-swinging.
Knife RoF is about twice bite RoF. Therein lies the problem. Thus the suggestion of halving knife RoF and giving it blast damage to make it the same against structures, which is, after all, its most useful purpose.
Comments
The reason you don't often see knife kills is because people think they're useless. Many think it's a better idea to jump around reloading than switch to a knife. That doesn't make it so. The knife is a rather powerful weapon that's guaranteed to kill the skulk in 2 swipes if you've shot him even a little bit, and quite often it's 1 by the time he reaches you. Don't misunderstand the argument here; we're not saying that a knife is superior to bite in a 1v1 straight duel, though it probably is more of a match than it should be. The knife is, however, too strong in the way that it's used as a finishing attack when the guns fail. When a skulk is wounded to the extent that it takes 2 or less knife swings to kill it by the time it reaches you, and you'd have to be completely incompetent with an LMG for that not to be the case, then making the kill is not difficult at all.
The most common argument of all knife supporters is the superior range one. Frankly that's ridiculous. First of all the actual difference in their range is small enough that very few players can measure it on the run and stop short of the knife's range. After that you have to take into account factors like the marine jump dodging around as they always are, and of course the marine moving forward himself to close distance. Then add all of that onto the fact that the skulk thought he was charging a marine with a gun up until the very last second. He thought that the closer he got the more of an advantage he would have, as is supposed to be the case. And then in the very last second the marine whips out a knife, and you honestly expect me to believe that this skulk is going to react in a split second and pull out of range, <b>to the exact spot where it can bite but the knife can no longer reach it?</b> That's insane, and I'd like to see even a single person who makes this argument pull it off on a reliable basis.
And whether or not you can do that, it's simply ridiculous that the skulk has to take these precautionary measures just to survive a confrontation with a small knife. Think about any movie featuring this sort of alien; are they ever depicted as recoiling in fear as soon as the victim pulls out a small dagger? Skulks are supposed to have a huge advantage in melee range. The knife is not supposed to be a feasible anti-alien weapon, it's just there as an absolute last-ditch attempt with low probability of success. When fighting against guns Skulks are trying to get as close to the marine as they can to maximize their advantage, and the marine shouldn't be able to completely reverse the situation just by pulling out a melee weapon. It's about preserving the respective roles of the two teams.
I certainly wouldn't have any objections if the RoF was halved and blast damage given.
I mean, hell, when *I* can get in a lucky knife kill on a decent fade, something's wrong, and I don't care how injured the fade was before stepping into range.
Hm. Would the person who set up that range comparison thing, any chance I could convince you to do that for gorge heal-spray, as well as the other melee attacks of the different aliens?
Also, I wonder if there's any way where we could visually compare the width of the attacks (as opposed to the height/length)
Yeah, if you managed to survive a marine unloading both his primary and secondary clip at you and then he pulls out a tertiary weapon that rivals your primary weapon with only a fraction of inch difference in effective range and he manages to kill you, then it's your own... damn... fault...
/sarcasm
Why do some people enjoy having an unbalanced game? Marine ranged weaps are already more powerful than any alien weapon, why give them an equivalent melee weapon? Knife damage was increased to help kill structures faster, not to rival skulks in melee damage potential. That was an unexpected side effect.
Knife should be knocked down in alien dmg, but kept the same vs structures. Either that or reduce its RoF. The fact that marine knifing is much faster than a skulk's bite means that even if a rine misses his first swing, he can get in a second one while a skulks only gets one bite chance.
Marines are not ninjas; nerf the knife!
<!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::skulk::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/skulk.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='skulk.gif' /><!--endemo-->
I wholeheartedly endorse this idea.
Yes, this is a good idea. And this would sway my support away from the knife is fine. only problem *might* be animations? or would it being slowed down make it not a problem?
This would still allow a skilled knifer a small chance against a skulk, but only if the skulk is unskilled, because its a simple matter of chomp choimp dead and no more marine problem. I do not care how much this marine can crackhop, just crackhop better than the marine, knife has knockback too. (I understand insane knockback bug is fixed, that will make a lot of frustrating bs moments better).
The knife has a strong psychological effect of basically people not wanting to get knifed or just the omg he can stab me now instead of shooting me with just 2 more pistol bullets. I say that the skulk just is not gonna win a standoff against a marine, and it never should. Marine = standoff campability (no its not a typo =) ), skulk is not on par with a marine in those circumstances, you must retreat with haste in that situation. If you get pinned down, your screwed either way.
You might even add an armor bonus to carapace that cuts knife damage in half(only knife), to make carapace have a bonus like that.
I think a lot of the problem is you see a skulk charging at a marine, just trying to walk right up to the marine in the open or dark corner or whatever, where he can easily see you coming. That doesn't work unless you can blitz the marine while bunnyhopping, with a buddy. If the marine is not a rambo, that complicates things further, and makes it even more desirable to have bob2 hanging with you read to chomp their heads off.
A skulk, in my opinion, should be retreating around a corner, darting back into vents, and generally stalking a marine. The difficulty is the brightness of maps and the prevalence of people using gamma jackers way beyond intended use. There are people who need it, but there are so many abusers its just not right, it skews the balance of several alien abilities. I think there needs to be a way to make it so people don't exploit powerstrip to gain a blatently obvious advantage; Powerstrip was never intended for enhancing your gameplay BEYOND the average persons display settings.
Okay so I was going off topic big time, but yea sneaky skulk = very difficult to achieve, especially with the lack of "atmosphere" which is pretty much dark areas. It does not stay "scary" or "atmospheric" if you make playing the game an obcession.
So to wrap it up.. hardly anyone these days thinks that sneaky around as a vanilla skulk is at all possible. The examples used in attempting to prove the knife unbalanced are full of opinion interlaced with fact such as damage done and then "its only an inch difference in range" opinion data. That just muddles the issue. I like the knife damage = 30 blast damage w/ half RoF, I suggest not lowering things to lesser skill requirements just because everyone cries "THINK OF THE PUBS!", and finally, powerstrip is so abusable... I suggest perhaps a patch for people who have darker moniters that raises it to an acceptable level, and make the effects of too high gamma totally unbearable?
Random thought huh?
Anyways why is it when I'm a gorge and someone whips out a knife and starts swinging the gorge practically warps ten feet in the knife and sticks the marine like glue. I swear to god everytime I gorge and someone is knifing I warp a coupld feet to them and absolutly cant move at all. If i do move I mysteriously jump back to the marine.
well, I like this idea
Of course, with half the rate of fire, the marine timing has to be extremely precise. And heck, if they have timing like that, they deserve the knife kill.
Of course, we're working on theory here, so this may or may not hold true if tested in real combat situations.
Of course, with half the rate of fire, the marine timing has to be extremely precise. And heck, if they have timing like that, they deserve the knife kill.
Of course, we're working on theory here, so this may or may not hold true if tested in real combat situations. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Actually, I find it really easy to take a single slash after putting a few bullets into a skulk, since I know he's almost dead. I do it to impress myself, but hey, knife is overpowered, so I shouldn't be impressed.
true, but (speaking for myself) thats only for one skulk. my knife comes out after i usually kill something and have no ammo in either gun loaded and there is a skulk coming after me
The Knife is fine as is. It takes three slices to kill a Skulk and only two for an unupgraded Marine. The Rate of Fire is probably the same, but the Skulk is a much smaller target, has better maneuverability, and the Marine has a better chance of hitting if he's ducking (in which case he moves at a snail's pace.)
The solution to Marines in the corner is PARASITE! Gakgakgak.
The Knife is fine as is. It takes three slices to kill a Skulk and only two for an unupgraded Marine. The Rate of Fire is probably the same, but the Skulk is a much smaller target, has better maneuverability, and the Marine has a better chance of hitting if he's ducking (in which case he moves at a snail's pace.)
The solution to Marines in the corner is PARASITE! Gakgakgak. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Please remember when trying to make realism arguments that according to the story, you're actually fighting what is essentially animated fungus. Arguments of the knife should hurt are essentially meaningless.
Going by your logic of swing for swing, we also see that it should only take nine parasites to kill a marine, yes?
Aliens != Marines.
Marine strength is supposedly in distance combat.
Alien strength is supposedly in close-quarters combat (CQC)
So please explain to me why the team with the <i>strength</i> in CQC is the one that should back off when the other pulls their CQC weapon?
I disagree...I think it should be half knife damage, same rof, and blast damage. This way you still have it taking down structures in the same amount of time but it drastically reduces its effectiveness against skulks (which is what we want). cutting the rof in half doesn't do a whole lot I'd be tempted to say. they can still pull out that knife right when you get close and stab you since youre most likely already weak. it's not so hard to hit with the knife, the rof just makes it a little easier to simply spam it.
Think about this.
In the manual: <i>"against the Kharaa, this is a very last resort. Better to retreat than engage the Kharaa in melee."</i>
A stock skulk kills a stock marine in two bites. A marine can knife a skulk in 3 attacks. After marines research armor, it gets even worse.
I am more than happy to take a knife into combat. If I run out of bullets, I actually stand a chance at a skulk with the knife if I jump around just right and avoid it's bites. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Again, there are worse problems than "OMG OVERPOWERED KNIFE h4x"
If you get knifed, its your own damn lack of skill, not the games fault.
IF you get knifed when the knife damaged is lower, its even more embarassing, and still your own damn fault.
then again.. its as if this thread is on an eternal loop.. the same questions asked, the same answers given.
Skulk melee wins, it takes 2 bites to kill a marine, three swipes to kill a skulk, and marines even have more HP
I don't see a problem.
Knives are fine the way they are, if anything they need to be stronger. It's a bladed metal vs a tiny fleshy chinchilla with fangs.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->and the knife which is comparitively equal to the bite.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Or not...
First, all realism arguments are crap for a number of reasons.
1. Gameplay > Realism.
That's really all you need right there, but in case someone can't wrap their head around that, we'll continue.
2. Kharaa == bacterium aka fungus.
How much damage will cutting a chunk out of a piece of fungus actually do it? Unless you cut it clean in two, the answer is "not much"
3. Kharaa == fungus designed specifically for combat.
Think about that. These creatures emerge from the hive specifically to protect it and with no other purpose. They don't need to worry about eating, sleeping, crapping, reproducing or all the other myriad things our bodies are devoted to. It's <i>all</i> tissue devoted to the task of ripping you a new one. Should this be something that needs to back-off when a marine pulls out a pig-sticker?
Now, for your particular realism argument about RoF
Speed != Power
Typically, when you flail a knife or other object around like a ginsu blade, you do so at the expense of concentrated power in each strike. For a demonstration of this, take an axe out to the wood pile and try quickly hacking away at a log. See how much damage you do. Once you've done that, set up another log and take your time to line up and really power the axe into it. Compare. Chances are you'll have a lot more surface damage on the hacked log, but a good, deep cut in the powered log.
So, you agree that this is a problem. <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
but it shouldn't take 50 swings to kill a skulk with a knife. hell it should take no more than 3 honostly.
Maybe the balance issue isn't with the knife at all...