Self Defense Scenario Discussion 1 Of ?:
Marik_Steele
To rule in hell... Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9466Members
To rule in hell... Join Date: 2002-11-20 Member: 9466Members
in Discussions
<div class="IPBDescription">pistol to back</div> This'll be the first of a we'll-see-how-many series of self-defense discussions. I'm trying to keep this very separate from typical gun control or "why everyone should bring their baby pistol with them everywhere" threads. Instead I'm going to post a situation so we can talk about what's the smartest course of action as the victim.
Scenario: pistol to back.
Random person in mid- to low-light situation puts a pistol to someplace between your shoulderblades and demands something (asks for wallet or car keys, asks to <censored> you up, asks for the password to that Everquest account of yours valued at $10,000, whatever). Only contact between you and threat person is the gun; he has not grabbed you yet, and you have not been able to take a look at him yet. For the sake of the argument we'll say there's nobody else around in danger of stray bullets or able to contact authorities.
Your goals, in (my opinion) order of priority:
1. Avoid injury or death.
2. Avoid legal trouble.
3. Avoid losing whatever the threat maker is demanding.
Explain what you think is the smartest and safest course of action.
Scenario: pistol to back.
Random person in mid- to low-light situation puts a pistol to someplace between your shoulderblades and demands something (asks for wallet or car keys, asks to <censored> you up, asks for the password to that Everquest account of yours valued at $10,000, whatever). Only contact between you and threat person is the gun; he has not grabbed you yet, and you have not been able to take a look at him yet. For the sake of the argument we'll say there's nobody else around in danger of stray bullets or able to contact authorities.
Your goals, in (my opinion) order of priority:
1. Avoid injury or death.
2. Avoid legal trouble.
3. Avoid losing whatever the threat maker is demanding.
Explain what you think is the smartest and safest course of action.
Comments
[getting-on-my-high-horse]
ive been practicing martial arts most of my life - I started Taekwon-do (principally a striking art) when I was 6, and have now reached 3rd Dan in that - I've reached 1st Dan in jujistsu, and competed at semi-professional kickboxing - I've gone to training 'camps' where some of the best people in the world are doing the teaching... and they'd all say the same - the answer isn't mine, but theirs [/off-horse]
if they have a gun, you do as they say, when they say it, where they say it... Especially as it's in the back - you have no idea if it's genuine or not - you have no idea if the person looks like he just got out of bed, just got out of prison, or just got out of a swimming pool...
why take a risk... at least wait until you can get more information - such as is the gun real / loaded etc...
But if you feel like the type with guts and think your car is more important, you can try dropping the item on the ground, then when he's hopefully distracted enough to pick it up, dodge to the opposite side of your item, grab the hand with the gun and point it as far away as possible from you and either kick him hard in teh shins, balls, a good elbow to the face, gut or maybe forearm if you're strong enough. Then take the gun, if it's a revovler, open the drum of bullets, let them fall to the ground and sweep them all over the place and then throw the gun away into the shadows, or if it's a semi-auto, push the clip release button and then pull back on the slide to remove the bullet from the chamber, kick the clip somewhere, the chambered round if any somewhere, and then throw the gun somewhere. (Not at the mugger, you are giving him a weapon, a blunt weapon for hitting, but he will be ****.) Then your best option is to usually run away, retreiving what he wanted if you feel you can get away with it. Usually, beating them up can be met with consequences since he can sue you for assault and batter, even though he held you at gun point... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But then, it's always safe to comply and let them get away. With the wallet scenario, he will most likely get away with just the cash in the wallet if any. With the car, the police will be on the look out for the car and the suspect. With anything else, it's not important. If he wants to rape you, well, they would probably beat you down first and then rape you while you're subdued.
This is a "what if it was <b>you</b> right now" scenario I guess; and most people here are not formally trained. Some may have some training, but that's usually only enough to get themselves hurt. The few who have had professional training know that just because they may thoretically be able to go on the offense, doesn't mean that they _should_ or that it's the safest course of action.
Some people here may have a concealed carry permit (I will be getting one soon), but even if you are armed, it doesn't mean that you will ever get the chance to bring it to bear. Those who are untrained or just not very smart may believe that the only choice is to somehow bring your weapon to bear.
Those who are trained know that sometimes it's not the smart move. The idea is to give CCW holders the ability to know and understand the difference.
The smartest move is to be aware of your situation and not get caught up in something like this in the first place. But hindsight is 20/20, and here you are.
Odds are? We can talk about it all we want, we have that luxary when it's not happening. But if it ever actually happened, you'd probably be so shook up/panicy that all you CAN do is comply. They aren't kidding when they say that when the adrenaline is flowing, fine motor skills go out the window.
If you don't suddenly find yourself with a big advantage (which would be challenging to come across in the dark), it's not a fight you are likely to win. Even if you gained an advantage, you'd probably have to fork over your wallet first to get it (distraction, waiting for them to make a big mistake).
There's a big difference if you are being threatened with rape. The psychological trauma of that act is terrible, on par with the physical trauma of a bullet. If you see an opportunity to act, take it.
Also, this is one argument for carrying two wallets. One in your hip pocket, and one in your rear pocket (on jeans). Hand them the fake, make sure it's packed with monopoly money and plastic cards (to make it look real at first glance), and most importantly make it something DIFFICULT TO OPEN.
Velcro, zippers, anything that almost requires two hands to deal with. This leaves them with a choice between leaving without checking the wallet, or fumbling with it to get a good look inside. In either case, you're better off than before... either they're gone with a useless wallet, or distracted.
If they tell you to open it, the aforementioned 'drop' is easy to pull off, but if they're smart enough to think of that, and ballsy enough not to be scared witless by this point (aka: ready to bolt), you'll likely end up being shot, and need to be ready to deal with it, and get yourself to a situational position of safety (whatever that may mean to you) as soon and efficiently as possible.
Grab the gun hand, tilt the gun DOWN torward the ground, 2 things this does, makes ti so if your shot it hits you a non vital place, or makes it so the gun misses you entirely (of course deflections could happen but... lets not think about this) now spin around into him, and take a hold of his hand, press the pressure point below the wrist and spin his arm out from him, that usually makes it feel like your exerting more pressure on him then you are, thus causing him to panic and A: Dropping the gun or B: going with it. Then your at liberty to strike his genitals or snap his arm.
Also note, don't try this unless you know what the hell your doing. I had something similar happen to me at school, held up at knife point from behind, snapped the kids arm then kneed him in the ribs... got suspended for 2 weeks and he got off scott clean... <!--emo&???--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/confused.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='confused.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Good luck.
*edit* I'm sorry, that wasn't an appropriate reply. Let me elaborate...
Given the locale of both you and the aggressor, you are in no position to "grab the gun hand".
It's like trying to lick your elbow.... it ain't gonna happen.
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I would advise you to stop and consider that the bad guy might know what the hell HE'S doing. Lets hope not, but if this is the case, you'll end up with nothing but a few new holes.
The first thing I would do if I see you begin to move at all is to retract the weapon towards my body and begin stepping backwards. The gunman could be firing this entire time if he was so inclined.
Such a move would give him all the options: If he wanted to kill you, he can; if he is "bluffing", just wanted your money, and never intended to harm you afterwards, this would allow the gunman to retreat. Or, worst of all, if he intended to let you go afterwards, your move may panic him into shooting you.
Is it possible to turn around, grab the gun, and turn the tables? I suppose, but only if the situation was perfect, the timing was perfect, and your reaction as well as your capability to perform the maneuver is perfect.
Sadly, while the second and third factor can be trained, the first is out of your control. Plain and simple.
For you to suggest retaliating when you have no idea:
-Who is it?
-What do they want?
-What is their intent afterwards?
-Are they willing to commit murder in addition to robbery?
-Is that a real gun?
-Are they trained?
-How will they react to sudden movement?
-Is that a silencer, or the barrel?
-Is the pistol in battery?
-If I turn will they shoot me afterwards because I saw him, whereas he wouldn't have before?
-Will anyone hear the shot and get help?
-Is there more than one hostile standing back there?
is pretty unwise IMO. If you did it at school, it does not correlate to you being able to do it in this case. In fact, it may instill a false sense of confidance.
It would be mighty embarassing if you did your kung fu successfully only to find out he's got a friend back there with a scattergun.
While one simple look over your shoulder could shed some answers to some of these variables, turning your head isn't an option. You don't need to know all of those to be successful, but the fewer things you know, the more the odds are stacked against you, unless you're very lucky.
Sorry for being long winded, but forgive me for scoffing at the thought of simply turning or reaching around and grabbing their hand. That's the type of stereotypical answer that you'd expect from someone who is either untrained or not very smart. Or both. Many people will rant about how if they're going to go down anyway, they will go down fighting. Perhaps there are teens at columbine who would say the same thing... Only to be frozen and scared seconds before their life was taken away. You don't get second chances, but it works both ways...
By that, I mean there are two reactions and four possible outcomes... you can do as they ask and live. You can do as they ask and be killed anyway. You can try to retaliate and live. Or, you can try and retaliate and be killed.
IMO the risk and odds of survival are in your favor if you just do what they ask (at least in this case).
I'm not an expert, so take it with a grain of salt... these are just my thoughts on the matter.
If you hear his voice coming from your left or fail to make the distinction which side it's from, then spin left followed quickly by putting all your weight backwards.
The idea is to knock their hand to the side with one of your flailing arms and roll your body into the center of their chest and then knock them down.
If done correctly (which doesn't take much more than quickness), you'll have them pinned to the ground and unable to point the gun at you.
At this point it's a street fight, good luck with that, remember to go for the balls.
thankye - although I don't like talking about it to be fair - people often confuse high grades with high skill... too often is the case when they are completely unrelated - i know many a high grade who shouldn't be there, and i know many low grades that should be much higher...
if they have a gun, there is one outcome that isn't worth tempting - you die.
if the gun welder is jumpy, has an itchy trigger finger, or has played FAR too many computer games (real life ~ internet) why take the risk...
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I completely agree.
Also I'd like to reiterate the fact that how you actually respond when a guy points a gun at you in the dark of night and demands something, and how you'd like to think you'd respond are two completely different things. I had the misfortune to find that out the hard way this spring break, while in Mexico. I consider myself extremely lucky that all I lost was a couple hundred dollars, a good chunk of my clothes, and the car (in which the above mentioned things were in). Up to the point where the gun got pulled I was actively looking for a way to get me and all my stuff out of the situation, the second it came out however, none of the stuff mattered like it had a few seconds before. I just kinda froze up. All my plans managed to completely leave my mind. I handed over the keys, and ran to the police station.
The Lessons to be learned:
1.Give up the stuff, its far more replaceable than your life.
2. When you roommate says “Lets go to Mexico for spring break, my friend tells me there is this great place to camp out on the beach for free…” dig up the cash for a hotel room instead. It could end up being far far cheaper...
I am not sure whether you could pull off a similar manouver when turned away from the person.
FRIKEN DO AS THEY SAY.
most people do NOT want to comit murder (as they will be persued much more aggresively, and murder/attempted murder is MUCH worse then agrivated assault).
If you are sure they are going to do something to you, run like heck.
Hitting a mooving target is much harder, just run and keep friken running!
The other most important thing is to never get your self into a situation where an assaliant could attack you with a gun with out much fear of reciprication of some sort.
If they have you on a dark residential street, no one is gona see it, but they WILL hear a gunshot.
the most you are out is probably a few hundred $$ (if you cary that in your wallet) or possibly your car (hint, don't park some where that an assaliagnt can do this to you).
All of you people who think that that you can get to his hand faster then he can make a fist are not thinking to clearly. It takes a fraction of a second to squeeze the trigger, it takes a larger fraction of a second to defelct his hand. Some one who is mugging you is probably already edgy, cautious etc. Don't suprise em, just give em your walet.
To all the people who have said something akin to 'grab their hand', or 'spin and fall back':
They are behind your back. They have at LEAST one weapon of an uncertain caliber pressed against said back. You are not an action hero. This is NOT a movie. You are not a soldier. They most likely do not want to kill you.
You may have cojones, or think that you do, or are trying to have that effect on an *internet forum*. I personally don't care. Just remember this simple fact:
They only have to move their finger less than a quarter of an inch to possibly blow a fist-sized hole through your sternum.
You CAN NOT move fast enough in this situation. Give them the money, do as they say. Politely, and as calmly as you can. Comply, and you have a much raised chance of survival.
From the front though is a different story (and should never be attempted without practicing a metric ASSLOAD), where it's actually better to get the underbarrel into the web between your thumb and first finger, and crank up and toward their wrist. Results in at the least a broken trigger finger from the guard; which hurts like hell and is LIKELY to distract them (drugs/fortitude notwithstanding). You know where you stand, with a frontside assailant... or at least a helluva lot more than from the back.
A knife... give them what they want. A gun is a bad weapon for a close fight.
But one thing is certain about the outcome of a knife fight... one person is going to the emergency room, and the other is going to the morgue.
I've seen that, shanks.. it's more about having shown that dedication to stick with it and get there than anything else. I'm pretty lousy with bare hand grapples, punches and throws.. but I *love* the hanbo. ^_^ Could land the instructor on his back every time, until he took it away. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
You know you're a nerd when you think of ripping off their amulet of +6 to fortitude before doing this. D:
--Scythe--
Velcro, zippers, anything that almost requires two hands to deal with. This leaves them with a choice between leaving without checking the wallet, or fumbling with it to get a good look inside. In either case, you're better off than before... either they're gone with a useless wallet, or distracted.
If they tell you to open it, the aforementioned 'drop' is easy to pull off, but if they're smart enough to think of that, and ballsy enough not to be scared witless by this point (aka: ready to bolt), you'll likely end up being shot, and need to be ready to deal with it, and get yourself to a situational position of safety (whatever that may mean to you) as soon and efficiently as possible. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats great advice Talesin, Next time i see a old wallet someone doesn't want I'll be sure to pick it up.
Also i keep my important cards (ID, credit cards) in a seperate "mini wallet" thing, so even if it does happen... i can say "here ya go... but i have nothing to take". I'm sure it'd make the basturd feel real bad for robbing a poor college student. <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
As for the topic at hand... Simply avoid getting in a situation such as this. Sounds hard but just put yourself in their shoes... Avoid the best places for ambushes. Allys and dark streets in a industrial portion of a city. Think of what would make robbing someone easy, and do the opposite.
How many thieves are there that you can hear? Are there multiple people speaking? If there are, you might as well fight for your life anyways, because muggings nearly always go down 1 on 1. Why? I'll answer that with another question: Why would you want someone else watching you mug another person?
Yup, they're gonna kill you and take everything off of you.
Is there <i>anything</i> you can use to your advantage within the area?
A light behind your mugger will cast a shadow, giving you a good idea of their height/weight and/or position relative to yourself. Height/Weight is a good thing to know, especially if you think you'll have to fight him. As well, by the shadow you could also tell if the mugger was a woman; as well as the voice... but that is highly doubtful.
On that, are there any nearby and readilly available weapons or objects?
A light/dull/easilly broken object is nothing you want to be going for. A heavy, long, and/or hard object is very good at KOing someone, especially if you peg them on their side of their head. A sharp or bladed object that can also be easilly weildable can quickly kill someone. However, you could be in a industrial weapon's factory and even though that factory could produce light guns and pre-load them with live ammunition, they will do you no good if you cannot reach them. Look for things that you can get to: quickly and easilly.
Turn your disadvantages into advantages, if you can. Because you cannot see your thief's face, this also means your thief cannot see <i>your</i> face. He or she does <b>not</b> know wether you are teary-eyed and blubbery, or totally PO'd and planing how to dispose of their body. Because the thief has the advantage in observing you, try to stress him out with every move you make; but not too much or he'll just shoot you anyways. They may also be over-confident and overly cocky/greedy. Let this be their downfall if you'll fight them; they wont expect you to fight back, because they have <i>a gun</i>.
Move the gun or weapon to a non-critical area of your body as you go for the items the fiend requested, if you can. He may or may not match your movements; this means if he DOES shoot you (and pray they shoot you only once) you can <b>play</b> dead while not actually being killed. A hole one inch from your heart is a better option then a hole going through your heart. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink.gif' /><!--endemo--> And if you DO get shot, 9 times out of 10, people will run away even without your wallet for one obvious reason; they <i>think</i> they've just commited a murder, possibly their first. If you're still alive wait a while for your shooter to dissapear. Then dissapear before he reapears with a match and gasoline or worse; a friend with another weapon in a axe-like form carrying a black baggie. <!--emo&:(--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/sad.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='sad.gif' /><!--endemo-->
But most importantly:
<b>Stay calm and think</b>.
Anything could set the idiot off a-flaming, and pop a cap into your lower spinal column while doing it.
If you're in on a abandoned city street at night and someone does this to you, and you know they're the only one else out there, just give them what they want; but not blindly. Think before you act and think where it could take you if you take certain actions. But the mugger won't expect you to think; they just hope you're too petrified to do anything but comply.
Personally, i'd comply... to a point. If i was able to fight, and win with minimal injuries to MYSELF (i dont care about HIM, though) and it was a huge deal that i give him nothing (+100 dollars i owe someone, or a loan shark, for example) then i'd take him out. I mean <i>take. him. out.</i> Perminately.
[If you feel something wet it's either your sweat or water from... the gun.
Break his arm in that case.]
If you hear his voice coming from your left or fail to make the distinction which side it's from, then spin left followed quickly by putting all your weight backwards.
The idea is to knock their hand to the side with one of your flailing arms and roll your body into the center of their chest and then knock them down.
If done correctly (which doesn't take much more than quickness), you'll have them pinned to the ground and unable to point the gun at you.
At this point it's a street fight, good luck with that, remember to go for the balls.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
lol
bit of a serious assumption there... the side they approach from is related to which hand they carry their gun in how... ?
I've never been one to follow my own advice, for various reasons before I have spent a lot of time on the streets late at night and have been in more fights than I can count (hence my broken nose), I've had knives and various heavy blunt objects used on me and... well I've been lucky. All I know is that in any confrontational situation I immediately a) get extremely sarcastic b) get extremely calm c) get extremely attached to my wallet/reputation/pint
Yes I'm stupid, yes I'm liable to get killed one day, yes it does make me feel like the big man when I come out of it with hardly a scratch.
Saying all of that, I still hate violence, always feel extremely guilty if I do anything that causes them to need medical attention of some kind (once kicked this guy where it hurts... his sack split in half and he had to have them stitched back together again!) and I have never once started a fight, plus whenever I can I talk my way out of it.
I'm just incapable of running away or just 'taking it', I can't stand bullies and I literally find it impossible to just give in to them.
otherwise, it is often best to do as they say, and then start running.
For an amusing little trick I picked up in a elfdefence class once:
if they have anything pressed against your back:
grab your shirt/jacket (by the shoulder area) and pull it across your body. This will case any item they have pressed into your back to move in the oposite direction. You could use this with a gun if you were sure they planed on shooting you.
You can also use this with a knife or other sharp object.
You still have a good chance of getting hurt, but atleast this way you end up with the wound more lateral (fewer important things).
again, at the same time, roll and run (or if your an idiot and insist, come out swinging)
More things you can do if you insist on fighting:
forget the groin, o for the throat. that will end a fight, though posibly also their life. However, if you have a reasonable suspision that they planed on causing you harm, it still falls under self defense.
I've also been told loads of guarenteed ways to win a fight but its surprising how quickly plans go out of your head when you actually start.
In any event I seem to have good instincts as I always come out on top... totally not trained but it doesn't take years of training to smack someone in the face with a brick <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Hopefully I will never be in a fight again