<!--QuoteBegin-Thansal+Jun 11 2004, 01:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thansal @ Jun 11 2004, 01:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> forget the groin, o for the throat. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> In my opinion, there are only two targets worth considering in 'self defence' fights - High balls (eyes) and low balls (groin)...
there are muscles all around the neck. Being choked is uncomfortable, but it isn't unbearable... a knock on your nuts or a finger in the eye is far far more disrupting for the attacker - (both make your eyes water etc)
<!--QuoteBegin-EEK+Jun 11 2004, 12:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (EEK @ Jun 11 2004, 12:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Then get arrested for having a concealed firearm. Great plan. Sorry we're not all psychotic gun-waving redneck grammarschool dropouts. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Namecalling is neither called for nor constructive.
You can get concealed gun permits quite easily in some places. You just can't carry the weapon into places that explicitly disallow them, like banks. Laws vary.
Although, I would imagine that a mugger would not choose a target who has a large weapon strapped to them. You would get more trouble from the police than muggers.
edit: while my home state of NC does not issue concealed carry permits, here is an example of a state that does - <a href='http://www.dps.state.az.us/ccw/howto/default.asp' target='_blank'>Arizona</a>
Code9Bored and running out of ammunition.Join Date: 2003-11-29Member: 23740Members
edited June 2004
#1: A case for soft kevlar body armor. #2: A case for a firearm. #3: Give him the wallet, hope you don't have to use the armor, and use the gun if you do. #4: Call police, in either case.
<!--QuoteBegin-shanks+Jun 11 2004, 02:29 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (shanks @ Jun 11 2004, 02:29 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Thansal+Jun 11 2004, 01:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Thansal @ Jun 11 2004, 01:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> forget the groin, o for the throat. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> In my opinion, there are only two targets worth considering in 'self defence' fights - High balls (eyes) and low balls (groin)...
there are muscles all around the neck. Being choked is uncomfortable, but it isn't unbearable... a knock on your nuts or a finger in the eye is far far more disrupting for the attacker - (both make your eyes water etc) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Alright, its obvious you've never done this so I'll walk you through it: Step 1: Locate the soft little area at the bottom of your neck Step 2: Jab your finger into it as hard as you can Step 2 alternate: Don't do the other step 2, and just trust me when I say its a very effective way to disable someone
I like the idea of carrying two wallets best. I'm relatively tall (and hopefully strong soon, been getting back into the gym <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> ) but I wouldn't try to take on someone who had a weapon even if he was in front of me. I'd put some old cards in the wallet and maybe a couple of notes. Guns aren't very common here in Britain so it's more likely that I would get jumped by several people or someone a chib.
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
Again, this is one of the 'don't do this', but more for personal edification.
The three idioms of self-defense:<ul><li>Can't see, can't fight.</li><li>Can't breathe, can't fight.</li><li>Can't stand, can't fight.</li></ul> These will work on anyone... doesn't matter if they can feel pain or not. A groin-shot will be incredibly ineffective if someone's to the gills in mind-altering substances... they'll just laugh and kill you harder. You dig your thumbs into someone's eyes, they are now blind. They don't know where you are. They're screwed.
No matter how drugged someone is, if their body can't get oxygen to keep 'em going, they will pass out. Again, screwed. Usually this is most effectively accomplished by socking them as hard as you can in the throat with your fist, crushing the larynx and some of the esophagus. Be ready to perform an on-the-spot tracheostomy if you don't want them dead, in the case of a full collapse.
If you get someone's feet out from them, they can just get up again. Jumping on/kicking their knee as hard as you can will hurt like hell, and if they're standing when your full weight comes down, they won't want to (or be able to, in the case of no-pain) get up again once it breaks. Go for the side, as muscle is weak there in comparison to the rest of the leg. So long as you make it clear that you were incapacitating, and don't intend to kill, most will become extremely passive at this point.
ThansalThe New ScumJoin Date: 2002-08-22Member: 1215Members, Constellation
Shanks: As others pointed out, I didn't mean choking I ment slam your fist in there (it dosn't take much placement, just hit em as hard as you can)
but yah, tale hit the rest of it. In a fight, the point is not to cause pain, it is to disable.
groin will NOT disable all to often.
throat, eyes (though they are sorta hard to hit as alot of people will instinctivly guard their face) will end a fight.
droping their legs will also work as tale pointed out.
I used to take martial alrts (JKD) before I moved. I attended a seminar on Sayoc Kali (kali = filipino MA, this was a specific family of it). Alot of it focused on knife fighting (a very unplesant form of combat I soon found out). The first drill we were tought impressed on me their aims in a fight, aka stop the other person.
A simple stab wound will not do much, specialy agains't tale's druged up opponent. each strike in the series disabled something specifc, from the first one ( a cut on the forehead designed to drain blood into their eyes), to circular strikes on limbs designed to litteraly filet the arms (aka, remove bones, you can't move your arm when the muscles are no longer attached), to strikes aimed at the thyroid.
The primary thing this impressed upon me was not to get in a knife fight <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo--> It also sorta got me thinging even further on the lines of disabaling. I had studied some other things before this about fighting 'dirty' (aka to win), from philipino Gunting (destructions, though not as foward as Sayoc), to simple eyejabs and such.
If you can avoid it, don't get into a fight, cuss one of those days you will find some one who is better trained/has more experiance/fewer scrupples/luckyer then you.
gluck all <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I used to take martial alrts (JKD) before I moved. I attended a seminar on Sayoc Kali (kali = filipino MA, this was a specific family of it). Alot of it focused on knife fighting (a very unplesant form of combat I soon found out). The first drill we were tought impressed on me their aims in a fight, aka stop the other person.
A simple stab wound will not do much, specialy agains't tale's druged up opponent. each strike in the series disabled something specifc, from the first one ( a cut on the forehead designed to drain blood into their eyes), to circular strikes on limbs designed to litteraly filet the arms (aka, remove bones, you can't move your arm when the muscles are no longer attached), to strikes aimed at the thyroid.
The primary thing this impressed upon me was not to get in a knife fight <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I considerable amount of my training focused on knife fighting too, or combat knife at my seafu put it. We FOucsed on strikes that would disarm, then the fileting of the arm would commense to help discourage further retaliation. My seafu showed us this vicious blade called "the civilian" it had a hooked tip that was used to cut tendons.
Anywho, if you had a gun too your back; the last thing you can do is a groin shot. If you are going to fight back; keep the assialant talking as you glance back. Than rotate your body to avoid being shot and to position yourself behind the assialant. If the gun is in the left hand, rotate left(if right, rotate right.). use your right arm to push the gun wielding arm off aim. Make sure you keep the assialant talking, as it delays the reaction times.
Talesin and Evil Guy from Karate Kid II are the same people <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo-->
TalesinOur own little well of hateJoin Date: 2002-11-08Member: 7710NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators
edited June 2004
For the last time. Three people who have trained for a good chunk of time have told you 'no, you will not be Mr. Cool-Guy-Action-Hero and grab the gun/get behind him/turn around without getting shot like an idiot.'
The best course of action is to do what they say, keep a decoy wallet, and only fight back if they display the warning signs that they may kill/kidnap you anyway.
You are not faster than a bullet. You cannot move three feet in the time it takes their finger to move less than a quarter-inch. You will be shot, and <span style='color:orange'><darwin-award style remark removed></span>
The truth of the matter is that all the training in the world doesn't prepare you for a real world situation
I got in my 'fight' when I was about 16 - I was on my way home after a night out (Although i hadn't been drinking, just socialising and the like) - i stopped in at the bank cash machine to get some money for a taxi, and there was a guy hanging there. he put his arm around my neck with a knife digging into the front of my throat. I've been through this situation dozens of times in training... i supposedly knew what not to do, and what to do, when to make the move, where to make it, etc etc...
but i froze
i just stood there, and locked up - i couldn't move... he got the money out the front of the cash machine and legged it, and i was just left there standing with a bit of blood dripping down the front of my neck
i got VERY lucky
i'd been training for some 11 years up to that point - it didn't help at all.
It's different now... i'm more experienced, less jumpy, and far more knowledgable of my own physical limitations - but the first time... thankfully it only happens once, and i wish it never happened to any one
the point of this post though - discussing it is one thing, but when it comes down to the break point, natural instinct takes over. some will struggle, fight, and maybe die. others will freeze and lockup like i did. some will just pass out.
Was readin the news today outta the Eagle-Tribune and:
HAMPTON N.H. - A worcester man was arrested minutes after another man was robbed yesterday afternoon at knifepoint on C. Street at Hampton Beach, police said.
Officers were sent to the C Street location about 4:40 p.m. and spoke to the victim, who was able to provide a description of the man who robbed him and the car which he traveled.
The victim told police the man threatened him with a knife and took his money, police said.
The information was relayed to surrounding towns and within minutes, Seabrook police stopped the car and arrested one its occupants.
A knife matching the one used in the robbery was recovered from the man who was arrested, police said.
Joseph Daigle, 22, of Worcester was charged with armed robbery. He was held overnight at the Rockingham County jail on $2,500 cash bail and was scheduled to be arraigned today in Hampton District Court, police said.
So really, perhaps the best thing to do to make sure you aren't robbed blind is to BE AWARE of who is around you... so if one suddenly pulls out a knife or gun behind your back, you know what he already looks like and can alert the police.
I mean, you don't have to take things into your own hands per se... you do after all pay anywhere from 5% to 20% of your paycheck to the police each year so you may as well take advantage of societies bodyguards.
<!--QuoteBegin-Talesin+Jun 12 2004, 09:19 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Talesin @ Jun 12 2004, 09:19 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> For the last time. Three people who have trained for a good chunk of time have told you 'no, you will not be Mr. Cool-Guy-Action-Hero and grab the gun/get behind him/turn around without getting shot like an idiot.' <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Make that four. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
With formal training in this exact scenario, I'd say giving up my wallet is my best bet.
You ever play that game where you have to pull your hands away before the other person slaps them from on top? It's like that, except pulling a trigger takes less time. And if you are successful, that's just the first shot. Now you have to win the fight at a disadvantage (he's got the gun in hand) or you die.
In my training(over the course of years), the gunman (also trained) would "go easy" while the victim practiced different things to do and how to do them to win the fight. As in, he wouldn't pull his arm away right away when you turned around or whatever. Then one day we played a little game where the gunman expects you to resist. So he holds the gun to your back and both people stand there until the victim makes a move, and they go at it. Well I can tell you, out of the entire group of 30some people, every victim ended up "dead". Only about 5 were able to avoid the first shot. Fun times.
I wouldn't wager my life on the assailant being slow, unskilled with a gun, drunk, weak, not expecting resistance, or anything else.
Now if it were a KNIFE on the other hand... hehehehe...
As soon as I read this topic I knew most of the replies were going to be 'I do a matrix flip up the wall and break his neck with my hands as I soar over his head.'
Maybe it's a GOOD things computer geeks stay inside <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
That_Annoying_KidSire of TitlesJoin Date: 2003-03-01Member: 14175Members, Constellation
I would laugh and proffer my keys and tell him that I'm a poor sonofabitch who has no money [it's damn true <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->], baring that I would do whatever he said to a T
Comments
In my opinion, there are only two targets worth considering in 'self defence' fights - High balls (eyes) and low balls (groin)...
there are muscles all around the neck. Being choked is uncomfortable, but it isn't unbearable... a knock on your nuts or a finger in the eye is far far more disrupting for the attacker - (both make your eyes water etc)
Namecalling is neither called for nor constructive.
You can get concealed gun permits quite easily in some places. You just can't carry the weapon into places that explicitly disallow them, like banks. Laws vary.
Although, I would imagine that a mugger would not choose a target who has a large weapon strapped to them. You would get more trouble from the police than muggers.
edit: while my home state of NC does not issue concealed carry permits, here is an example of a state that does - <a href='http://www.dps.state.az.us/ccw/howto/default.asp' target='_blank'>Arizona</a>
#2: A case for a firearm.
#3: Give him the wallet, hope you don't have to use the armor, and use the gun if you do.
#4: Call police, in either case.
In my opinion, there are only two targets worth considering in 'self defence' fights - High balls (eyes) and low balls (groin)...
there are muscles all around the neck. Being choked is uncomfortable, but it isn't unbearable... a knock on your nuts or a finger in the eye is far far more disrupting for the attacker - (both make your eyes water etc) <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Alright, its obvious you've never done this so I'll walk you through it:
Step 1: Locate the soft little area at the bottom of your neck
Step 2: Jab your finger into it as hard as you can
Step 2 alternate: Don't do the other step 2, and just trust me when I say its a very effective way to disable someone
The three idioms of self-defense:<ul><li>Can't see, can't fight.</li><li>Can't breathe, can't fight.</li><li>Can't stand, can't fight.</li></ul>
These will work on anyone... doesn't matter if they can feel pain or not. A groin-shot will be incredibly ineffective if someone's to the gills in mind-altering substances... they'll just laugh and kill you harder.
You dig your thumbs into someone's eyes, they are now blind. They don't know where you are. They're screwed.
No matter how drugged someone is, if their body can't get oxygen to keep 'em going, they will pass out. Again, screwed. Usually this is most effectively accomplished by socking them as hard as you can in the throat with your fist, crushing the larynx and some of the esophagus. Be ready to perform an on-the-spot tracheostomy if you don't want them dead, in the case of a full collapse.
If you get someone's feet out from them, they can just get up again. Jumping on/kicking their knee as hard as you can will hurt like hell, and if they're standing when your full weight comes down, they won't want to (or be able to, in the case of no-pain) get up again once it breaks. Go for the side, as muscle is weak there in comparison to the rest of the leg. So long as you make it clear that you were incapacitating, and don't intend to kill, most will become extremely passive at this point.
but yah, tale hit the rest of it. In a fight, the point is not to cause pain, it is to disable.
groin will NOT disable all to often.
throat, eyes (though they are sorta hard to hit as alot of people will instinctivly guard their face) will end a fight.
droping their legs will also work as tale pointed out.
I used to take martial alrts (JKD) before I moved. I attended a seminar on Sayoc Kali (kali = filipino MA, this was a specific family of it). Alot of it focused on knife fighting (a very unplesant form of combat I soon found out). The first drill we were tought impressed on me their aims in a fight, aka stop the other person.
A simple stab wound will not do much, specialy agains't tale's druged up opponent. each strike in the series disabled something specifc, from the first one ( a cut on the forehead designed to drain blood into their eyes), to circular strikes on limbs designed to litteraly filet the arms (aka, remove bones, you can't move your arm when the muscles are no longer attached), to strikes aimed at the thyroid.
The primary thing this impressed upon me was not to get in a knife fight <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
It also sorta got me thinging even further on the lines of disabaling.
I had studied some other things before this about fighting 'dirty' (aka to win), from philipino Gunting (destructions, though not as foward as Sayoc), to simple eyejabs and such.
If you can avoid it, don't get into a fight, cuss one of those days you will find some one who is better trained/has more experiance/fewer scrupples/luckyer then you.
gluck all <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
A simple stab wound will not do much, specialy agains't tale's druged up opponent. each strike in the series disabled something specifc, from the first one ( a cut on the forehead designed to drain blood into their eyes), to circular strikes on limbs designed to litteraly filet the arms (aka, remove bones, you can't move your arm when the muscles are no longer attached), to strikes aimed at the thyroid.
The primary thing this impressed upon me was not to get in a knife fight
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I considerable amount of my training focused on knife fighting too, or combat knife at my seafu put it. We FOucsed on strikes that would disarm, then the fileting of the arm would commense to help discourage further retaliation. My seafu showed us this vicious blade called "the civilian" it had a hooked tip that was used to cut tendons.
Anywho, if you had a gun too your back; the last thing you can do is a groin shot. If you are going to fight back; keep the assialant talking as you glance back. Than rotate your body to avoid being shot and to position yourself behind the assialant. If the gun is in the left hand, rotate left(if right, rotate right.). use your right arm to push the gun wielding arm off aim. Make sure you keep the assialant talking, as it delays the reaction times.
P.S. Sorry for the spellin errors. im tired.
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
The best course of action is to do what they say, keep a decoy wallet, and only fight back if they display the warning signs that they may kill/kidnap you anyway.
You are not faster than a bullet. You cannot move three feet in the time it takes their finger to move less than a quarter-inch. You will be shot, and <span style='color:orange'><darwin-award style remark removed></span>
I got in my 'fight' when I was about 16 - I was on my way home after a night out (Although i hadn't been drinking, just socialising and the like) - i stopped in at the bank cash machine to get some money for a taxi, and there was a guy hanging there. he put his arm around my neck with a knife digging into the front of my throat. I've been through this situation dozens of times in training... i supposedly knew what not to do, and what to do, when to make the move, where to make it, etc etc...
but i froze
i just stood there, and locked up - i couldn't move... he got the money out the front of the cash machine and legged it, and i was just left there standing with a bit of blood dripping down the front of my neck
i got VERY lucky
i'd been training for some 11 years up to that point - it didn't help at all.
It's different now... i'm more experienced, less jumpy, and far more knowledgable of my own physical limitations - but the first time... thankfully it only happens once, and i wish it never happened to any one
the point of this post though - discussing it is one thing, but when it comes down to the break point, natural instinct takes over. some will struggle, fight, and maybe die. others will freeze and lockup like i did. some will just pass out.
HAMPTON N.H. - A worcester man was arrested minutes after another man was robbed yesterday afternoon at knifepoint on C. Street at Hampton Beach, police said.
Officers were sent to the C Street location about 4:40 p.m. and spoke to the victim, who was able to provide a description of the man who robbed him and the car which he traveled.
The victim told police the man threatened him with a knife and took his money, police said.
The information was relayed to surrounding towns and within minutes, Seabrook police stopped the car and arrested one its occupants.
A knife matching the one used in the robbery was recovered from the man who was arrested, police said.
Joseph Daigle, 22, of Worcester was charged with armed robbery. He was held overnight at the Rockingham County jail on $2,500 cash bail and was scheduled to be arraigned today in Hampton District Court, police said.
So really, perhaps the best thing to do to make sure you aren't robbed blind is to BE AWARE of who is around you... so if one suddenly pulls out a knife or gun behind your back, you know what he already looks like and can alert the police.
I mean, you don't have to take things into your own hands per se... you do after all pay anywhere from 5% to 20% of your paycheck to the police each year so you may as well take advantage of societies bodyguards.
Make that four. <!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo-->
With formal training in this exact scenario, I'd say giving up my wallet is my best bet.
You ever play that game where you have to pull your hands away before the other person slaps them from on top? It's like that, except pulling a trigger takes less time. And if you are successful, that's just the first shot. Now you have to win the fight at a disadvantage (he's got the gun in hand) or you die.
In my training(over the course of years), the gunman (also trained) would "go easy" while the victim practiced different things to do and how to do them to win the fight. As in, he wouldn't pull his arm away right away when you turned around or whatever. Then one day we played a little game where the gunman expects you to resist. So he holds the gun to your back and both people stand there until the victim makes a move, and they go at it. Well I can tell you, out of the entire group of 30some people, every victim ended up "dead". Only about 5 were able to avoid the first shot. Fun times.
I wouldn't wager my life on the assailant being slow, unskilled with a gun, drunk, weak, not expecting resistance, or anything else.
Now if it were a KNIFE on the other hand... hehehehe...
Maybe it's a GOOD things computer geeks stay inside <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
juice, what/why was this thing that you spent years on practical selfdefence? (/me is curious)