Of course I don't think that everyone who is for unhained chambers is a freak. I was just a bit upset, that noone could give a good answer to moultano question.
if you drop alot of chambers without at least 2 other RTs going down, your not going to do very well... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think this is a good argument, because you get something for building the chambers and if you don't spend your res good, you deserve it to loose.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When several aliens die you take forever to spawn with only one hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If to many aliens die you probably play not defensive enough or you are playing with to many players on the server.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But still, he would be just as much as a 'freak' as us, considering we are talking about it on an online forum, eh? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin-crypt+Jul 3 2004, 08:44 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (crypt @ Jul 3 2004, 08:44 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I don't think this is a good argument, because you get something for building the chambers and if you don't spend your res good, you deserve it to loose. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Uh, yes, exactly. And spending enough res to use all the chambers in the beginning of the game does not qualify as "spending your res good." Prioritizing chambers over the hive, as you seem to think is plausible, is terrible res management. Both of these things WILL cause you to lose. That's why it isn't overpowered. Suffice it to say that hives are still important enough that failure to get one up as fast as possible is still almost a guaranteed loss for the aliens.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->If to many aliens die you probably play not defensive enough or you are playing with to many players on the server.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I beg to differ. In 7v7 and 8v8, which is what Classic is aimed at, it does take a considerable amount of time for an alien team that was ravaged by a major offensive or defensive operation to spawn back in. This wouldn't be much of a problem if the marines couldn't spawn back in two to three times faster, but they can. Hence doubling your spawn rate with a new hive is crucially important for the alien team. Plus there are numerous other advantages: new abilities, most of which are quite simply game winners: leap, bile bomb, umbra and stomp, which transform the units that use them into new roles that allow the alien side to achieve victory. The importance of movement chamber teleportation cannot be over-stressed; it gives the alien side heaps more mobility and allows the alien side to much more effectively control res nodes near hive locations.
Hives remain very important on unchained servers. A team that goes for mass chambers off the bat will almost certainly lose; I've seen it time and time again. The alien side still needs hives for victory. Unchaining chambers does not remove the importance of hives any more than removing hive requirements for higher lifeforms did.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->new abilities, most of which are quite simply game winners: leap, bile bomb, umbra and stomp, which transform the units that use them into new roles that allow the alien side to achieve victory.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Bingo. Until the second hive, skulks especially lack an offensive punch. They're great when defending and staking out terriotory, but until they get leap they don't have a chance when facing a marine any further than 15 feet away. The second hive also gives gorges the ability to take down resource nodes in under a minute, using much less time away from the team to cut the marine team down a node.
Simply put, the second hive holds the key to all of the aliens' offensive capabilities. The third hive brings on the game winning terror. Even more important is the spawn timing, which can wreck a poorly prepared alien team without the second hive.
Plus, people seem to not realize... putting down nine (count 'em... nine) chambers costs 90 resources! Aliens spawn in with 25 resources each. Even in an 8v8 game the gorges are not capable of placing all of the chambers at the start. If they place eight out of the nine... then they have only one resource tower and a hive!
The idea behind unchaining the chambers is that the aliens will get all of the upgrade chambers (or all of the chambers they want) if they want them before the 5-8 minute period where the second hive goes up. This brings movement and sensory upgrades back into early play, where skulks can use them to their best against low-tech fronteirsmen, unlike the current way things go.
The standard right now is DMS, as we all know. People say that it's not forced. Well, basically it is. If you even THINK about building a movement first and the other players read your mind, you get banned. In clan scrimmages and tournaments, DMS is always the norm.
With unchained chambers, defense will still go first... but you still may have movement and sensory chambers around three minutes into the game, which allow you to use the FULL capabilities of silence against marines without motion tracking or focus against marines without armor upgrades.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Until the second hive, skulks especially lack an offensive punch<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> With a mc / sc rush they already can deal a good offensive punch
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Plus, people seem to not realize... putting down nine (count 'em... nine) chambers costs 90 resources! Aliens spawn in with 25 resources each. Even in an 8v8 game the gorges are not capable of placing all of the chambers at the start. If they place eight out of the nine... then they have only one resource tower and a hive! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As many ppl already mentioned, it's not nessecerry to build all chambers, lev1 cloaking is enough, same with focus (to counter medspam), 1 mc is enough to get to the 2. hive right after it is set (and ff is on).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The idea behind unchaining the chambers is that the aliens will get all of the upgrade chambers (or all of the chambers they want) if they want them before the 5-8 minute period where the second hive goes up. This brings movement and sensory upgrades back into early play, where skulks can use them to their best against low-tech fronteirsmen, unlike the current way things go.
The standard right now is DMS, as we all know. People say that it's not forced. Well, basically it is. If you even THINK about building a movement first and the other players read your mind, you get banned. In clan scrimmages and tournaments, DMS is always the norm. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also hate the standard DMS strat (because it's like a nobrainer for me), but I prefer the solution to improve both mc and sc more, to make them a better choice as first chamber. I think if the unchained chambers idea would be realised it would not take long and player figure out the "best strat". There would be the same normal strat for (nearly) every game again... (like 1sc, 1mc , 3dc). Same for Marines, they would be forced to counter sensory every round.
... more later <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><b>QUOTE</b> Until the second hive, skulks especially lack an offensive punch
With a mc / sc rush they already can deal a good offensive punch<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...MC and SC is the worst combination of chambers to possibly have. Never have I had anything near a good experience with this combination of chambers. The Sesnory chamber's overall easy counterability alone can provide some difficulty, not to mention the fact that Defense chambers can triplicate the strength of any offensive endeavor. MCs and SCs might be nice for Skulks, but by the time you have 2 hives, you'll need advanced lifeforms to avoid being out-teched and to destroy electrified RTs and defenses, etc.
Well, my point can still stand that MC and SC in combination don't work very well. I have to admit, when permitted, I love dropping MCs first, simply because they are quite viable at any time of the game. Celerity for Skulks works just as well, if not better [in my opinion] than Carapace, Silence can make for some great early-game ambushes, and as Gorge I always feel naked without Adrenaline (though it also does wonders for pestering Lerks, as well as Celerity). The main problem, however, with getting Sensory first is how easily it can be countered. One of the main reasons it can be countered so easily is because the effects of the chamber are the most obvious out of any other (with the exception of Silence and Redemption <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->), and another is that counters are easily avaliable early in the game (Scans, Armor lvl 1, MT, etc.). The main way that Sensory can be used effectively is to create a "Sensory net," which can require a great amount of resouces and rarely happens in public play (mainly because people complain when a Sensory chamber is dropped first, as people use this as a method of "griefing;" just drop one SC and leave the game. GG constant arguments and complaining).
if u drop sc first ppl complain cos they arnt organised... that and they dont know how to properly spam it across map...
anyway bak on topic slightly... i rekon this whole idea was made for those ppl who complain about sc being dropped first... this way they can get their precious dc's and a higher cost... well whoever made the idea in da first place... do u complain when mc or sc is placed in the beggining...? i rest my case <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> lol
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->With a mc / sc rush they already can deal a good offensive punch<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Possibly, but in a slow, creeping way. Quite literally with cloaking, as you can't go very fast, and as we've established, there's no way to build an early-game sensory network. With movement, running down 15 foot hallway with celerity is still going to get you peppered.
Also, early aliens will still fall prey to marine nodes or choke points. Gorges will still have to resort to OC'ing up a node, onos are pretty easy to chase without stomp, and fade metabolize can make assaults faster. Again, skulks need to leap for any true offensive support.
Another thing to remember is that extra hives boost the effectiveness of alien armor (with more hives, the armor absorbs and blocks more damage).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As many ppl already mentioned, it's not nessecerry to build all chambers, lev1 cloaking is enough, same with focus (to counter medspam), 1 mc is enough to get to the 2. hive right after it is set (and ff is on).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Level one cloaking isn't enough. Once the marines get paranoid, their eyes will be strained to the screen. And, as you know, you can still see level three cloaked aliens if you look hard enough, so jumpy marines have a fair shot at spotting low-level cloaking aliens. That's a counter enough. My point was pointed against someone who thought that this is an unrestrained buff with no marine counter, but I see non-full upgrade levels as a fine counter.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I also hate the standard DMS strat (because it's like a nobrainer for me), but I prefer the solution to improve both mc and sc more, to make them a better choice as first chamber. I think if the unchained chambers idea would be realised it would not take long and player figure out the "best strat". There would be the same normal strat for (nearly) every game again... (like 1sc, 1mc , 3dc). Same for Marines, they would be forced to counter sensory every round.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't think it will work that way. Take a look at some of the combat games. Every fade goes for carapace and regeneration, right? Well, then there are fades who grab focus. There are ones who get silence. Many get adrenaline. Others scare the ponce off of marines with cloaking. Scent of fear is fun, too. While I would normally grab metabolize, focus, regeneration, carapace, adrenaline, and maybe silence, others prefer to dump focus and get cloaking, or something of the like.
That's going to carry over to NS: people will use the upgrades they like, so the demand on chambers they like will weigh in during pub games as well as scrimmages, where clans can sit down and discuss what they think their upgrade tree should flow like during that next match.
The system will give people that choice. It will be far easier to influence a gorge to put down your chamber type when the only limit is resources.
@jamespsx No I have never a problem if sc or mc is dropped fist. I only have problems with ppl who canot play in a team (and whinig instead of building more sc/mc)
@semi-psychotic <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Possibly, but in a slow, creeping way. Quite literally with cloaking, as you can't go very fast, and as we've established, there's no way to build an early-game sensory network. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> With 6 players you can get easyly 3 sc in the first minute <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->With movement, running down 15 foot hallway with celerity is still going to get you peppered.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, and thats good! Next time take silence and ambush him <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[..], so jumpy marines have a fair shot at spotting low-level cloaking aliens. That's a counter enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->CLOAKING :: When standing still and not attacking, the alien fades to near invisibility. The time required drops with each level: 3.00 sec at level one, 1.50 sec at level two, and 1.00 sec at level three.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't think it will work that way. Take a look at some of the combat games. Every fade goes for carapace and regeneration, right? Well, then there are fades who grab focus. There are ones who get silence. Many get adrenaline. Others scare the ponce off of marines with cloaking. Scent of fear is fun, too. While I would normally grab metabolize, focus, regeneration, carapace, adrenaline, and maybe silence, others prefer to dump focus and get cloaking, or something of the like.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Meta, Cara, Silence, Adren, Cele, and Sof or Regen (depends on Mapsize <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's going to carry over to NS: people will use the upgrades they like, so the demand on chambers they like will weigh in during pub games<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The system will give people that choice. It will be far easier to influence a gorge to put down your chamber type when the only limit is resources. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> True... but thats not my idea of good teamplay :/
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->With 6 players you can get easyly 3 sc in the first minute<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's part of the choice involved! Does your team need those three sensory chambers, or do you need to expand on movement faster?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, and thats good! Next time take silence and ambush him <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ambushing is mainly defensive. In the early game, the best skulks can do is stake out their territory and defend it. Assaulting a group of marines or an outpost with silence doesn't exactly help. You need leap to get anywhere with that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> CLOAKING :: When standing still and not attacking, the alien fades to near invisibility. The time required drops with each level: 3.00 sec at level one, 1.50 sec at level two, and 1.00 sec at level three. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hm, I guess I got mixed up there. However, I'm pretty sure that the other two upgrades are balanced better for low upgrade levels (SOF has a nasty short range with one SC, focus loses its edge at lower levels).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->True... but thats not my idea of good teamplay :/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> So, a commander researching level one armor instead of weapons because his marines wanted armor is bad teamplay? Good teamplay would be gorges putting down the chambers as they are needed, as I stated. The gorges would be providing the backbone for the skulks early in the game. That's teamplay, no?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Hm, I guess I got mixed up there. However, I'm pretty sure that the other two upgrades are balanced better for low upgrade levels (SOF has a nasty short range with one SC, focus loses its edge at lower levels). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> No, it's the same with focus on level 1: AU1 = 2 Bite and after that: 0 Armor = 1 Bite And you only bite 33% slower than normal. But SoF on lev 1 sucks, thats true <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, a commander researching level one armor instead of weapons because his marines wanted armor is bad teamplay? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> It's good teamplay. It seem like the comm has communicated with the rines, knows what they prefer and agrees with them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Good teamplay would be gorges putting down the chambers as they are needed, as I stated. The gorges would be providing the backbone for the skulks early in the game. That's teamplay, no?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> At first he must find out which are needed, and not just drop that chambers he needs to take the skills he prefers in CO (as you stated!).
Hm, the sensory chamber may need some rounding out at lower upgrade levels. That's the consequence of rarely seeing these lower upgrade levels.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At first he must find out which are needed, and not just drop that chambers he needs to take the skills he prefers in CO (as you stated!). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Sorry, I said it wrong. I meant that the gorges would drop chambers based on if the rest of the team wanted it, like a commander asking his team what upgrades they want first, or what weapons they prefer.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I also hate the standard DMS strat (because it's like a nobrainer for me), but I prefer the solution to improve both mc and sc more, to make them a better choice as first chamber.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
That will never happen. As I've said before no Fade will trade celerity for regen, and no Onos will take focus over regen. The higher lifeforms *need* defense upgrades. The alien side will also never trade hive teleportation for cloaking networks at the 2nd hive. The way the game is structured ensures that DMS will never go away; it simply can't. If you buff the higher lifeforms to the point where they don't need defense upgrades, they'll be too powerful with defense upgrades. If you make the alien side so fast that they don't need MCs hive teleportation, the side is overpowered. If you buff MC and SC upgrades tremendously, you destroy any semblance of game balance.
It's a nice theory to say "Well let's just buff MCs and MCs", but the fact remains: DMS will not go away. Unchaining the chambers provides a simple and balanced way to ensure that DMS becomes extinct.
I really don't think it's a problem that a marine with no armor dies to a skulk with L1 focus. Focus is meant to be a counter to medspam, right? Besides, a marine with A1 will still have some armor left after a L1 focus bite, so a medpack will allow him to survive one more bite.
Ryo-Ohki: <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The higher lifeforms *need* defense upgrades<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes but the idea is, that skulk are already "strong" enough, so they don't require higher lifeforms until the 2. hive is up. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The alien side will also never trade hive teleportation for cloaking networks at the 2nd hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I already saw clanmatches with 1. dc 2. sc to counter HA with focus.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes but the idea is, that skulk are already "strong" enough, so they don't require higher lifeforms until the 2. hive is up.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Err, what? Early Fades are pretty much the sole reason alien teams win these days. Skulks are incredibly fragile and without SC and MC upgrades stand little chance against marines of equal skill, especially in open areas. Yes it's true that the alien side could get the 2nd hive up before a Fade shows up, but it's an enormous risk; if the marines quickly try to lock down two hives, the alien side has to assult fortifications, and sensory/movement does not help you there. And even if you've opted for sensory first, you'll have to chose defense second, and without movement your position is extreamly weak, due to a lack of hive teleportation and upgrades such as adrenaline, which any decent lerk/gorge will want to get, and celerity which combined with leap makes skulks far more effective.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I already saw clanmatches with 1. dc 2. sc to counter HA with focus.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly, that is a very very small minority of clan matches. The vast majority are DMS. Secondly, that's a ludicrous strategy; focus to counter HA?! Focus gives you virtually no advantage against HA; it's primary use is against LA marines. The sheer weight of opinion is that DMS is the prefered order, and a few experiments by clan teams don't change that.
Why exactly do you oppose unchaining the chambers? And have you played on unchained servers?
Honestly, I like the idea of unchaining the chambers, but I don't like the Idea of having to eleminate the whole system of unlinking the chambers from the hive the correspond to. I like having to pick a chamber to use and working with that one till the next hive.
Now, before you all say, "Hey, you dumbhead! You just said you like the idea then say you hate the idea. What's your problem, bumsniffer!" Let Me Explain.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already, because I only could skim through the pages, but I remember long ago someone posting an idea of unchaining the upgrades of the chamber and NOT unchaining the chamber from the hive. It was one of the best ideas I've heard and I will share the simplicity with you.
Lets say your playing a regular NS game and some one drops three Defence Chambers as the upgrade for hive one. Each upgrade would cost 1 res. With the Unchaining of upgrades you could select: - 1 level of Regeneration and 2 levels of Carapace = 3 levels total - 1 level of Redemption/ 1 level of Regen./ 1 level of Cara = 3 levels total - 3 levels of Regen = 3 levels total - 2 levels of Redempt./ 1 level Regen. = 3 And so on.
Then goes the same when you get the second hive, someone drops three Movement. - 1 Celerity/1 adrenaline/ 1 silence = 3 Mov. levels - 1 cara/ 2 regen = 3 Def levels
See, simple. Then comes sensory and then it would be the same kind of upgrade system.
I really like this idea much better than the chamber unchain idea.
But the chambers remain chained. Alien strategy doesn't change; the order would still be DMS. Plus there's the problem that lvl 1 & 2 upgrades are fairly worthless; I know as an alien player I would rarely, if ever, take lvl 2 regen and lvl 1 cara, or lvl 1 celerity and lvl 2 silence. Getting level 3 of an evolution remains the most desireable course of action.
Plus there's the added problem that the concept is just to complicated. It would require a complete reworking of the way evolutions work, not to mention rebalancing lvl 1 & 2 upgrades. Unchaining the chambers is much more simple and easier.
The alien strategy would change. Not only would sensory be a more desirable chamber, as they are still pretty good at level 1 each, movements would be incredibly helpful to have for the gorge or lerk, with a point to celerity and two points to adrenaline.
And what is so complicated about it? It's the same as we have now only it's not grouped to the single upgrade. You can pick and choose. And of course if you wanted to have all three of the same upgrade, who's stopping you? Why is that complicated?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> The alien strategy would change. Not only would sensory be a more desirable chamber, as they are still pretty good at level 1 each, movements would be incredibly helpful to have for the gorge or lerk, with a point to celerity and two points to adrenaline.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It doesn't matter what skulks, gorges and lerks want; the needs of the Fades and Oni have to come first. That's why simply allowing aliens to "pick and choose" more upgrades from the same chamber won't change anything; DMS will still be the prefered selection because essentially nothing has changed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And what is so complicated about it? It's the same as we have now only it's not grouped to the single upgrade. You can pick and choose. And of course if you wanted to have all three of the same upgrade, who's stopping you? Why is that complicated?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it requires a fundamental changing of the way upgrades work. Unchaining is far simpler; all it does it take away hive requirements. The fundamentals don't change. Plus there would have to be extensive work done on rebalancing lvl 1 and lvl 2 upgrades, which currently are hardly ever used, mainly because they're either vastly inferior to lvl 3 or just plain useless. It's too much work to do for too little benefit.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Plus there would have to be extensive work done on rebalancing lvl 1 and lvl 2 upgrades, which currently are hardly ever used, mainly because they're either vastly inferior to lvl 3 or just plain useless. It's too much work to do for too little benefit. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, even if the chambers are unchained, the team will have to work on balancing the lower levels again. Remember, some teams would rather leave some chambers sitting at just one or two per type, so they have the resources to do the things they need. After all, in a 9v9, you may get all of the nine upgrade chambers, but a bunch of gorges with five resources left. In a 7v7, trying to get all of the nine chambers early game is smiply a waste of resources.
Don't get me wrong, I want to unchain the chambers, but the balancing at lower leves will have to be done anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes it's true that the alien side could get the 2nd hive up before a Fade shows up, but it's an enormous risk;<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes, but getting fades is also a risk, because you'll most likely loose if they get killed early. So why not invest the 50 res in rts/chabers/(ocs) to help the whole team. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if the marines quickly try to lock down two hives, the alien side has to assult fortifications, and sensory/movement does not help you there. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> If the marines manage it to lock down both hive-location in the first 4 min your team did something wrong as alien. But anyway, if the 2. hive is set mc help you. And it is defenatly harder to get to a hive as marine with sc standing everywhere on the way to it. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And even if you've opted for sensory first, you'll have to chose defense second, and without movement your position is extreamly weak, due to a lack of hive teleportation<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats all very relative. You can prevent a sneaky pg with SoF, and you can kill rines much easyer with focus. But I agree that dc for 2. hive is nearly a must have. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Firstly, that is a very very small minority of clan matches. The vast majority are DMS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Thats why I say changes are needed. If sc and mc had more advantages there would be also much more experiments with them. <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why exactly do you oppose unchaining the chambers?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I already said that earlyer... to sum it up: - It would kill much of the varity the game has - It is unbalanced - There are better solution to slove this problem (DMS) in my opinion <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And have you played on unchained servers? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yes some rounds...
@{WZD} Dont like that idea, because I dont want to envolve for new upgrades half of the game (6 times with 2 hives, 9! with 3 hives). There was never a probem with the way it is now.
NolSinklerOn the ClorfJoin Date: 2004-02-15Member: 26560Members, Constellation
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->- It would kill much of the varity the game has<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
KILL the variety? This wouldnt kill the variety, it would add lots of variety to the alien team. Different strategies...
If it DOES turn out to be unbalanced in the pub servers(unlikely but possible if the pub command0rs don't change their strategies), why is that so bad? Marines have always been the winnars anyway, aliens deserve to have some fun. 2.0 was a relief actually. For the first time since the first 5 days of NS' release, there were people stacking the alien side; a sight for sore eyes, that. 8)
And you have yet to explain how it <i>reduces</i> variety and strategy...
EDIT: Yes, there are better ways to solve the problem than unchaining, but a better way of fixing the hitbox bugs would be to move NS to a different engine. If my meaning isn't clear enough: Yeah, you could take the hard way, but it would take too long, and would be rather bothersome. It would also delay beta 5 for too long -longer than unchaining would. -Lets balance after unchaining them, shall we? It's not like it will be set in stone either.
Comments
<!--emo&:D--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/biggrin.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='biggrin.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->chambers cost resources
if you drop alot of chambers without at least 2 other RTs going down, your not going to do very well... <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think this is a good argument, because you get something for building the chambers and if you don't spend your res good, you deserve it to loose.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->When several aliens die you take forever to spawn with only one hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If to many aliens die you probably play not defensive enough or you are playing with to many players on the server.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->But still, he would be just as much as a 'freak' as us, considering we are talking about it on an online forum, eh? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Uh, yes, exactly. And spending enough res to use all the chambers in the beginning of the game does not qualify as "spending your res good." Prioritizing chambers over the hive, as you seem to think is plausible, is terrible res management. Both of these things WILL cause you to lose. That's why it isn't overpowered. Suffice it to say that hives are still important enough that failure to get one up as fast as possible is still almost a guaranteed loss for the aliens.
I beg to differ. In 7v7 and 8v8, which is what Classic is aimed at, it does take a considerable amount of time for an alien team that was ravaged by a major offensive or defensive operation to spawn back in. This wouldn't be much of a problem if the marines couldn't spawn back in two to three times faster, but they can. Hence doubling your spawn rate with a new hive is crucially important for the alien team. Plus there are numerous other advantages: new abilities, most of which are quite simply game winners: leap, bile bomb, umbra and stomp, which transform the units that use them into new roles that allow the alien side to achieve victory. The importance of movement chamber teleportation cannot be over-stressed; it gives the alien side heaps more mobility and allows the alien side to much more effectively control res nodes near hive locations.
Hives remain very important on unchained servers. A team that goes for mass chambers off the bat will almost certainly lose; I've seen it time and time again. The alien side still needs hives for victory. Unchaining chambers does not remove the importance of hives any more than removing hive requirements for higher lifeforms did.
Bingo. Until the second hive, skulks especially lack an offensive punch. They're great when defending and staking out terriotory, but until they get leap they don't have a chance when facing a marine any further than 15 feet away. The second hive also gives gorges the ability to take down resource nodes in under a minute, using much less time away from the team to cut the marine team down a node.
Simply put, the second hive holds the key to all of the aliens' offensive capabilities. The third hive brings on the game winning terror. Even more important is the spawn timing, which can wreck a poorly prepared alien team without the second hive.
Plus, people seem to not realize... putting down nine (count 'em... nine) chambers costs 90 resources! Aliens spawn in with 25 resources each. Even in an 8v8 game the gorges are not capable of placing all of the chambers at the start. If they place eight out of the nine... then they have only one resource tower and a hive!
The idea behind unchaining the chambers is that the aliens will get all of the upgrade chambers (or all of the chambers they want) if they want them before the 5-8 minute period where the second hive goes up. This brings movement and sensory upgrades back into early play, where skulks can use them to their best against low-tech fronteirsmen, unlike the current way things go.
The standard right now is DMS, as we all know. People say that it's not forced. Well, basically it is. If you even THINK about building a movement first and the other players read your mind, you get banned. In clan scrimmages and tournaments, DMS is always the norm.
With unchained chambers, defense will still go first... but you still may have movement and sensory chambers around three minutes into the game, which allow you to use the FULL capabilities of silence against marines without motion tracking or focus against marines without armor upgrades.
With a mc / sc rush they already can deal a good offensive punch
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Plus, people seem to not realize... putting down nine (count 'em... nine) chambers costs 90 resources! Aliens spawn in with 25 resources each. Even in an 8v8 game the gorges are not capable of placing all of the chambers at the start. If they place eight out of the nine... then they have only one resource tower and a hive!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
As many ppl already mentioned, it's not nessecerry to build all chambers, lev1 cloaking is enough, same with focus (to counter medspam), 1 mc is enough to get to the 2. hive right after it is set (and ff is on).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The idea behind unchaining the chambers is that the aliens will get all of the upgrade chambers (or all of the chambers they want) if they want them before the 5-8 minute period where the second hive goes up. This brings movement and sensory upgrades back into early play, where skulks can use them to their best against low-tech fronteirsmen, unlike the current way things go.
The standard right now is DMS, as we all know. People say that it's not forced. Well, basically it is. If you even THINK about building a movement first and the other players read your mind, you get banned. In clan scrimmages and tournaments, DMS is always the norm.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I also hate the standard DMS strat (because it's like a nobrainer for me), but I prefer the solution to improve both mc and sc more, to make them a better choice as first chamber.
I think if the unchained chambers idea would be realised it would not take long and player figure out the "best strat". There would be the same normal strat for (nearly) every game again... (like 1sc, 1mc , 3dc).
Same for Marines, they would be forced to counter sensory every round.
... more later <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Until the second hive, skulks especially lack an offensive punch
With a mc / sc rush they already can deal a good offensive punch<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
...MC and SC is the worst combination of chambers to possibly have. Never have I had anything near a good experience with this combination of chambers. The Sesnory chamber's overall easy counterability alone can provide some difficulty, not to mention the fact that Defense chambers can triplicate the strength of any offensive endeavor. MCs and SCs might be nice for Skulks, but by the time you have 2 hives, you'll need advanced lifeforms to avoid being out-teched and to destroy electrified RTs and defenses, etc.
Well, my point can still stand that MC and SC in combination don't work very well. I have to admit, when permitted, I love dropping MCs first, simply because they are quite viable at any time of the game. Celerity for Skulks works just as well, if not better [in my opinion] than Carapace, Silence can make for some great early-game ambushes, and as Gorge I always feel naked without Adrenaline (though it also does wonders for pestering Lerks, as well as Celerity). The main problem, however, with getting Sensory first is how easily it can be countered. One of the main reasons it can be countered so easily is because the effects of the chamber are the most obvious out of any other (with the exception of Silence and Redemption <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->), and another is that counters are easily avaliable early in the game (Scans, Armor lvl 1, MT, etc.). The main way that Sensory can be used effectively is to create a "Sensory net," which can require a great amount of resouces and rarely happens in public play (mainly because people complain when a Sensory chamber is dropped first, as people use this as a method of "griefing;" just drop one SC and leave the game. GG constant arguments and complaining).
anyway bak on topic slightly... i rekon this whole idea was made for those ppl who complain about sc being dropped first... this way they can get their precious dc's and a higher cost... well whoever made the idea in da first place... do u complain when mc or sc is placed in the beggining...? i rest my case <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> lol
Possibly, but in a slow, creeping way. Quite literally with cloaking, as you can't go very fast, and as we've established, there's no way to build an early-game sensory network. With movement, running down 15 foot hallway with celerity is still going to get you peppered.
Also, early aliens will still fall prey to marine nodes or choke points. Gorges will still have to resort to OC'ing up a node, onos are pretty easy to chase without stomp, and fade metabolize can make assaults faster. Again, skulks need to leap for any true offensive support.
Another thing to remember is that extra hives boost the effectiveness of alien armor (with more hives, the armor absorbs and blocks more damage).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->As many ppl already mentioned, it's not nessecerry to build all chambers, lev1 cloaking is enough, same with focus (to counter medspam), 1 mc is enough to get to the 2. hive right after it is set (and ff is on).<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Level one cloaking isn't enough. Once the marines get paranoid, their eyes will be strained to the screen. And, as you know, you can still see level three cloaked aliens if you look hard enough, so jumpy marines have a fair shot at spotting low-level cloaking aliens. That's a counter enough. My point was pointed against someone who thought that this is an unrestrained buff with no marine counter, but I see non-full upgrade levels as a fine counter.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I also hate the standard DMS strat (because it's like a nobrainer for me), but I prefer the solution to improve both mc and sc more, to make them a better choice as first chamber.
I think if the unchained chambers idea would be realised it would not take long and player figure out the "best strat". There would be the same normal strat for (nearly) every game again... (like 1sc, 1mc , 3dc).
Same for Marines, they would be forced to counter sensory every round.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I don't think it will work that way. Take a look at some of the combat games. Every fade goes for carapace and regeneration, right? Well, then there are fades who grab focus. There are ones who get silence. Many get adrenaline. Others scare the ponce off of marines with cloaking. Scent of fear is fun, too. While I would normally grab metabolize, focus, regeneration, carapace, adrenaline, and maybe silence, others prefer to dump focus and get cloaking, or something of the like.
That's going to carry over to NS: people will use the upgrades they like, so the demand on chambers they like will weigh in during pub games as well as scrimmages, where clans can sit down and discuss what they think their upgrade tree should flow like during that next match.
The system will give people that choice. It will be far easier to influence a gorge to put down your chamber type when the only limit is resources.
I totally agree with you
@jamespsx
No I have never a problem if sc or mc is dropped fist. I only have problems with ppl who canot play in a team (and whinig instead of building more sc/mc)
@semi-psychotic
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Possibly, but in a slow, creeping way. Quite literally with cloaking, as you can't go very fast, and as we've established, there's no way to build an early-game sensory network. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
With 6 players you can get easyly 3 sc in the first minute
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->With movement, running down 15 foot hallway with celerity is still going to get you peppered.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes, and thats good! Next time take silence and ambush him <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->[..], so jumpy marines have a fair shot at spotting low-level cloaking aliens. That's a counter enough.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->CLOAKING :: When standing still and not attacking, the alien fades to near invisibility. The time required drops with each level: 3.00 sec at level one, 1.50 sec at level two, and 1.00 sec at level three.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't think it will work that way. Take a look at some of the combat games. Every fade goes for carapace and regeneration, right? Well, then there are fades who grab focus. There are ones who get silence. Many get adrenaline. Others scare the ponce off of marines with cloaking. Scent of fear is fun, too. While I would normally grab metabolize, focus, regeneration, carapace, adrenaline, and maybe silence, others prefer to dump focus and get cloaking, or something of the like.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Meta, Cara, Silence, Adren, Cele, and Sof or Regen (depends on Mapsize <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->)
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->That's going to carry over to NS: people will use the upgrades they like, so the demand on chambers they like will weigh in during pub games<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The system will give people that choice. It will be far easier to influence a gorge to put down your chamber type when the only limit is resources. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
True... but thats not my idea of good teamplay :/
That's part of the choice involved! Does your team need those three sensory chambers, or do you need to expand on movement faster?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Yes, and thats good! Next time take silence and ambush him <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ambushing is mainly defensive. In the early game, the best skulks can do is stake out their territory and defend it. Assaulting a group of marines or an outpost with silence doesn't exactly help. You need leap to get anywhere with that.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
CLOAKING :: When standing still and not attacking, the alien fades to near invisibility. The time required drops with each level: 3.00 sec at level one, 1.50 sec at level two, and 1.00 sec at level three.
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Hm, I guess I got mixed up there. However, I'm pretty sure that the other two upgrades are balanced better for low upgrade levels (SOF has a nasty short range with one SC, focus loses its edge at lower levels).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->True... but thats not my idea of good teamplay :/ <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So, a commander researching level one armor instead of weapons because his marines wanted armor is bad teamplay? Good teamplay would be gorges putting down the chambers as they are needed, as I stated. The gorges would be providing the backbone for the skulks early in the game. That's teamplay, no?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
No, it's the same with focus on level 1:
AU1 = 2 Bite and after that:
0 Armor = 1 Bite
And you only bite 33% slower than normal.
But SoF on lev 1 sucks, thats true <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->So, a commander researching level one armor instead of weapons because his marines wanted armor is bad teamplay? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's good teamplay. It seem like the comm has communicated with the rines, knows what they prefer and agrees with them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Good teamplay would be gorges putting down the chambers as they are needed, as I stated. The gorges would be providing the backbone for the skulks early in the game. That's teamplay, no?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
At first he must find out which are needed, and not just drop that chambers he needs to take the skills he prefers in CO (as you stated!).
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->At first he must find out which are needed, and not just drop that chambers he needs to take the skills he prefers in CO (as you stated!). <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Sorry, I said it wrong. I meant that the gorges would drop chambers based on if the rest of the team wanted it, like a commander asking his team what upgrades they want first, or what weapons they prefer.
That will never happen. As I've said before no Fade will trade celerity for regen, and no Onos will take focus over regen. The higher lifeforms *need* defense upgrades. The alien side will also never trade hive teleportation for cloaking networks at the 2nd hive. The way the game is structured ensures that DMS will never go away; it simply can't. If you buff the higher lifeforms to the point where they don't need defense upgrades, they'll be too powerful with defense upgrades. If you make the alien side so fast that they don't need MCs hive teleportation, the side is overpowered. If you buff MC and SC upgrades tremendously, you destroy any semblance of game balance.
It's a nice theory to say "Well let's just buff MCs and MCs", but the fact remains: DMS will not go away. Unchaining the chambers provides a simple and balanced way to ensure that DMS becomes extinct.
*Waits for the "When it's done" comments*
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The higher lifeforms *need* defense upgrades<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes but the idea is, that skulk are already "strong" enough, so they don't require higher lifeforms until the 2. hive is up.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->The alien side will also never trade hive teleportation for cloaking networks at the 2nd hive.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I already saw clanmatches with 1. dc 2. sc to counter HA with focus.
<!--emo&::asrifle::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/asrifle.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='asrifle.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--emo&::gorge::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/pudgy.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='pudgy.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Err, what? Early Fades are pretty much the sole reason alien teams win these days. Skulks are incredibly fragile and without SC and MC upgrades stand little chance against marines of equal skill, especially in open areas. Yes it's true that the alien side could get the 2nd hive up before a Fade shows up, but it's an enormous risk; if the marines quickly try to lock down two hives, the alien side has to assult fortifications, and sensory/movement does not help you there. And even if you've opted for sensory first, you'll have to chose defense second, and without movement your position is extreamly weak, due to a lack of hive teleportation and upgrades such as adrenaline, which any decent lerk/gorge will want to get, and celerity which combined with leap makes skulks far more effective.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->I already saw clanmatches with 1. dc 2. sc to counter HA with focus.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Firstly, that is a very very small minority of clan matches. The vast majority are DMS. Secondly, that's a ludicrous strategy; focus to counter HA?! Focus gives you virtually no advantage against HA; it's primary use is against LA marines. The sheer weight of opinion is that DMS is the prefered order, and a few experiments by clan teams don't change that.
Why exactly do you oppose unchaining the chambers? And have you played on unchained servers?
Now, before you all say, "Hey, you dumbhead! You just said you like the idea then say you hate the idea. What's your problem, bumsniffer!" Let Me Explain.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned already, because I only could skim through the pages, but I remember long ago someone posting an idea of unchaining the upgrades of the chamber and NOT unchaining the chamber from the hive. It was one of the best ideas I've heard and I will share the simplicity with you.
Lets say your playing a regular NS game and some one drops three Defence Chambers as the upgrade for hive one. Each upgrade would cost 1 res. With the Unchaining of upgrades you could select:
- 1 level of Regeneration and 2 levels of Carapace = 3 levels total
- 1 level of Redemption/ 1 level of Regen./ 1 level of Cara = 3 levels total
- 3 levels of Regen = 3 levels total
- 2 levels of Redempt./ 1 level Regen. = 3
And so on.
Then goes the same when you get the second hive, someone drops three Movement.
- 1 Celerity/1 adrenaline/ 1 silence = 3 Mov. levels - 1 cara/ 2 regen = 3 Def levels
See, simple. Then comes sensory and then it would be the same kind of upgrade system.
I really like this idea much better than the chamber unchain idea.
Plus there's the added problem that the concept is just to complicated. It would require a complete reworking of the way evolutions work, not to mention rebalancing lvl 1 & 2 upgrades. Unchaining the chambers is much more simple and easier.
And what is so complicated about it? It's the same as we have now only it's not grouped to the single upgrade. You can pick and choose. And of course if you wanted to have all three of the same upgrade, who's stopping you? Why is that complicated?
It doesn't matter what skulks, gorges and lerks want; the needs of the Fades and Oni have to come first. That's why simply allowing aliens to "pick and choose" more upgrades from the same chamber won't change anything; DMS will still be the prefered selection because essentially nothing has changed.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And what is so complicated about it? It's the same as we have now only it's not grouped to the single upgrade. You can pick and choose. And of course if you wanted to have all three of the same upgrade, who's stopping you? Why is that complicated?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Because it requires a fundamental changing of the way upgrades work. Unchaining is far simpler; all it does it take away hive requirements. The fundamentals don't change. Plus there would have to be extensive work done on rebalancing lvl 1 and lvl 2 upgrades, which currently are hardly ever used, mainly because they're either vastly inferior to lvl 3 or just plain useless. It's too much work to do for too little benefit.
Well, even if the chambers are unchained, the team will have to work on balancing the lower levels again. Remember, some teams would rather leave some chambers sitting at just one or two per type, so they have the resources to do the things they need. After all, in a 9v9, you may get all of the nine upgrade chambers, but a bunch of gorges with five resources left. In a 7v7, trying to get all of the nine chambers early game is smiply a waste of resources.
Don't get me wrong, I want to unchain the chambers, but the balancing at lower leves will have to be done anyway.
Yes, but getting fades is also a risk, because you'll most likely loose if they get killed early. So why not invest the 50 res in rts/chabers/(ocs) to help the whole team.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->if the marines quickly try to lock down two hives, the alien side has to assult fortifications, and sensory/movement does not help you there. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If the marines manage it to lock down both hive-location in the first 4 min your team did something wrong as alien. But anyway, if the 2. hive is set mc help you. And it is defenatly harder to get to a hive as marine with sc standing everywhere on the way to it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->And even if you've opted for sensory first, you'll have to chose defense second, and without movement your position is extreamly weak, due to a lack of hive teleportation<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats all very relative. You can prevent a sneaky pg with SoF, and you can kill rines much easyer with focus. But I agree that dc for 2. hive is nearly a must have.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Firstly, that is a very very small minority of clan matches. The vast majority are DMS.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Thats why I say changes are needed. If sc and mc had more advantages there
would be also much more experiments with them.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Why exactly do you oppose unchaining the chambers?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I already said that earlyer... to sum it up:
- It would kill much of the varity the game has
- It is unbalanced
- There are better solution to slove this problem (DMS) in my opinion
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> And have you played on unchained servers? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes some rounds...
@{WZD}
Dont like that idea, because I dont want to envolve for new upgrades half of the game (6 times with 2 hives, 9! with 3 hives). There was never a probem with the way it is now.
KILL the variety? This wouldnt kill the variety, it would add lots of variety to the alien team. Different strategies...
And you have yet to explain how it <i>reduces</i> variety and strategy...
EDIT: Yes, there are better ways to solve the problem than unchaining, but a better way of fixing the hitbox bugs would be to move NS to a different engine. If my meaning isn't clear enough:
Yeah, you could take the hard way, but it would take too long, and would be rather bothersome. It would also delay beta 5 for too long -longer than unchaining would. -Lets balance after unchaining them, shall we? It's not like it will be set in stone either.