<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This would, in fact, require extra testing. Namely, as MagiTek mentioned, trying to take down the building or the already-up second hive vs. aliens with D upgrades that are teleporting in with MCs is going to be more than a little difficult. That's one of the levers ns balance turns around right now: choosing between higher in-combat effectiveness and delayed response time for a threat to the new hive, or increased mobility vs. lessened in-combat effectiveness. If the aliens don't have to make that choice, a way will have to be found to buff the marines. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's being tested as we speak; unchained servers exist and a wide variety of players frequent them. Taking down hives is certainly a little more difficult, but not as much as you might think. Both sides have around a 50% chance of winning on unchained servers, which is far more balanced than the rabid marine bias currently present in Classic. Try it out, if nothing else, it's a lot of fun <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
ZunniThe best thing to happen to I&S in a long whileJoin Date: 2002-11-26Member: 10016Members
<!--QuoteBegin-Ryo-Ohki+Sep 11 2004, 09:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Sep 11 2004, 09:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This would, in fact, require extra testing. Namely, as MagiTek mentioned, trying to take down the building or the already-up second hive vs. aliens with D upgrades that are teleporting in with MCs is going to be more than a little difficult. That's one of the levers ns balance turns around right now: choosing between higher in-combat effectiveness and delayed response time for a threat to the new hive, or increased mobility vs. lessened in-combat effectiveness. If the aliens don't have to make that choice, a way will have to be found to buff the marines. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's being tested as we speak; unchained servers exist and a wide variety of players frequent them. Taking down hives is certainly a little more difficult, but not as much as you might think. Both sides have around a 50% chance of winning on unchained servers, which is far more balanced than the rabid marine bias currently present in Classic. Try it out, if nothing else, it's a lot of fun <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny, I've played about 3 dozen games on unchained servers and the team that would win in this current version (without Unchained Chambers) was the team that won in that.
I don't know what that means (I can't assume anything) but it's my experience.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+Sep 11 2004, 09:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Sep 11 2004, 09:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteBegin-Ryo-Ohki+Sep 11 2004, 09:08 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Ryo-Ohki @ Sep 11 2004, 09:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This would, in fact, require extra testing. Namely, as MagiTek mentioned, trying to take down the building or the already-up second hive vs. aliens with D upgrades that are teleporting in with MCs is going to be more than a little difficult. That's one of the levers ns balance turns around right now: choosing between higher in-combat effectiveness and delayed response time for a threat to the new hive, or increased mobility vs. lessened in-combat effectiveness. If the aliens don't have to make that choice, a way will have to be found to buff the marines. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
It's being tested as we speak; unchained servers exist and a wide variety of players frequent them. Taking down hives is certainly a little more difficult, but not as much as you might think. Both sides have around a 50% chance of winning on unchained servers, which is far more balanced than the rabid marine bias currently present in Classic. Try it out, if nothing else, it's a lot of fun <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny, I've played about 3 dozen games on unchained servers and the team that would win in this current version (without Unchained Chambers) was the team that won in that.
I don't know what that means (I can't assume anything) but it's my experience. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Erm... So... The 'marine bias' thing (we kinda have now) still exists when you gamed Unchained? Right?
Anyway, what's the word from the devs about all this? (Amost 80% of people saying YES is a MASSIVE skew not to be ignored)
Woah, wait a minute there. How large was the server? How did you get enough res to go gorge, make a SC, and then skulk and then gorge again to build more chambers? RFK isn't that massive.. Marines can just move in groups of 2 if they know there is an alien at X location.
By the way, unchained chambers dont help alien teams that are total suck.
<!--QuoteBegin-dr.d+Sep 12 2004, 03:37 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (dr.d @ Sep 12 2004, 03:37 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> All I ever did in unchained servers was drop Ds and sense around the marine start and just destroy everyone who came out.
Cloaking + focus + healing + 30 seconds into the game = mayhaps small unbalance? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> One word: Scan
Don't want to scan? Kill the alien res nodes instead and avoid that single area... they spent their cash on upgrade chambers... THEY CAN'T REPLACE THEM.
Second... Marines just... LET aliens build all this unhindered outside their base? "marines + turrets + sieges + a phase gate + mines = small unbalance?" No... It = a bad alien team. Just like your senario (which assumes aliens have infinite res apparently) = Bad marines.
This isn't combat... you can't mindlessly zerg at the closest location of aliens... THINK before you act. Its the whole point of classic... to make you actually think about what you're doing/where you're going/who you're killing.
Edit: oh... and the people against the unchaining of chambers (who think they are the majority... They must be in the denial stage... next comes acceptance? or hatred?), Go on your favorite chained server....
There yet? Its ok we can wait...
Alright... On the aliens? great... Go gorge and drop a SC or a MC. Ahhh getting flamed I see. Booted from the server? Banned you say... ouch.
Do you see my point yet? If the community supports the chaining of chambers... why is it that people get **** off when you drop MC or SC first? why is it that there are servers that BAN on the drop of a SC or MC first?
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> gopher: Quite some time ago there has been a lot of talking in the community about unchaining the chambers yet no official word was said regarding the subject. Can you tell us if this feature has been actually acknowledged by the devs and are there maybe any plans to try it out in one of the future betas?
Zunni: At this point what I can say, is since I've been in the dev group (which is about a month now) I haven't seen any conversations regarding it. That's not to say that they didn't happen when people were actively discussing it, but I haven't seen anything really recently (We have been really busy preparing the B5 release). The problem with things like unchained chambers is they require a substantial amount of programming time and effort to add, and then the entire balance of the game is thrown off, and if it doesn't end up working then you get nothing back for that time/effort. We have enough features that we know will work in the game that we still have to put into it to keep us busy for a while. But like almost everything (except maybe scorpions hovering) it's not an impossibility. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
From the interview with Zunni posted in the news forum.
I'm completely confused. They say that it takes a substantial amount of programming time and effort to add: double-you tee eff? There is a plugin right now that unchains the chambers. Are we supposed to believe that Flayra can't do what the community whipped up in a few days?
Yes, it would require testing. Yes, it may very well throw balance off, though given the state of Classic currently, the term "balance" is some far off mystical fantasy that we can only dream of. But so does bringing in any new feature or changing any existing code.
Well, I suppose that's it. At least we finally got a response, though the mods might as well lock these threads because it all ment nothing. I'm angered that the votes of so many people have simply been ignored. The only consolation is that there are unchained servers out there as a result of these threads, and there at least myself and many others can enjoy Classic.
<!--QuoteBegin-Zunni+Sep 11 2004, 09:52 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Zunni @ Sep 11 2004, 09:52 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Funny, I've played about 3 dozen games on unchained servers and the team that would win in this current version (without Unchained Chambers) was the team that won in that.
I don't know what that means (I can't assume anything) but it's my experience. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, to me that means that balance isn't adversely affected - you want the better team to be winning. That's good. In which case, how much fun have you found it? Do you find unchaining less fun than standard NS?
I agree with you that Zunni's response in the interview was dissapointing, Ryo-Ohki.
At the same time, though, Zunni also said the following <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=68802&hl=unchain' target='_blank'>here</a>:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->After much discussion with Trevelyan to figure what he was talking about..
He has a valid idea...
I support this like a pair of old suspenders support pants.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also, as he said:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Funny, I've played about 3 dozen games on unchained servers and the team that would win in this current version (without Unchained Chambers) was the team that won in that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So it seems that he doesn't think it's unbalanced after all.
My question is: Did he change his mind, or is he just ambivalent about the difficulties of implementing this versus the rewards?
Personally, I suspect that this will make it into official NS eventually, though definitely not in beta 6. Right now the devs are primarily working on balancing and polishing the game; Once they're finished with that, though, and go looking for new features to implement, I suspect that this will be one of the most obvious.
Official surveys are taken from samples of thousands of people, and fairly accurately represent the opinions of the entire population of an area in millions of people. I'd say 1000 people (which is a huge number in discussion board terms) is an accurate sample of the community.
However I also think that the vote is too ambiguous. I voted yes because I'd like to see it tried, I think it's interesting...not because I'm sure it'll work. Others will have voted because they think it is the answer to everything, others will have tested amx mods with it and formed a positive (or negative) opinion...others may just see "aliens buffed" and vote either no or yes depending on their team preference.
True, niaccurshi. Unfortunately, there is no way to weight the votes in some way. However, if you'll read the endless supply of posts here, you'll find that most people who've tried the AMX version of Unchained Chambers seem to be in favor of it.
In the <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=80522' target='_blank'>Dev Meeting</a> topic, Zunni said that he's moved 10 topics from the Ideas and Suggestions forum to the devs forum. Someone wanted to know if Unchained Chambers was among them, and Zunni said this:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Unchaining chambers was not one..
Though we are having another discussion on that topic..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the devs are discussing this concept! That definitely, <i>definitely</i> bodes well for it. It may be rejected, but at least it's being considered!
i only read the first 12 pages of this thread or so, so my apologies if i say somethin already said
from what i DID read, i feel a lot of players forget there are people playing on both sides, and only think of the side they play a lot. personally, i feel unchaining them will be a good help to give the alien side *and i play marine the most personally* a LOT more variation. it keeps the marines on their toes and keeps them from dropping into a set of preset pattern of counters, making them HAVE to find a way to change their patterns on the fly instead.
however, i also feel a lot of earlier posts in here underestimate the skill of many marine players, who i have seen pull some interesting things in games *i.e. a team of marines have a base destroyed by regen + focus fades, relocate, and come back and win with LMGs and a lotta duct tape*. so the aliens get an advantage over marines by unchained. marines arent complete idiots all the time. just as aliens win games with the current system, the marines still can. they just dont get turky shoots all the time.
this is all MHO, however.
but yea. my vote is in favor of unchained. itll make us marine players try harder and reduce rambo's.
can someone kindly point me in the direction of the forum post where someone lays out a story of their 3 or 5 unchained games where the aliens absoultely owned the marines solely due to the chambers being unchained? Stop claiming it will destroy the game! I've played on unchained servers and just like zunni has said, the team that won in unchained games was probably the same team that would have won in a chained game.
tell me about some experiences where unchained wrecked a games balance...
Developers of a game have a better view of the game as a whole compared to individual players. Reason being the individual player generally sides with one race ect.
From my standpoint, and I play Alien/Marine 50/50, I consider myself extremely skilled on both sides and I enjoy them all the same...
This idea would just completely throw the entire game system out of whack. Its just too much for aliens to be able to have multiple upgrades. You can't go "There is a fade, they have D chambers up!" You'd go "There is a fade, he has regen, oh look a cloaked skulk, hey a spam gassing adrenaline using lerk!". The combinations are too vast at only one hive.
Also, there is no figuring out which hive has D chambers and killing it, thus preventing future chambers from being built. I think its just too much for people to be able to rotate upgrades like this. 8 aliens all with different random upgrades is just too much.
I play on a server that has unchained chambers as a NS mod...and I havent noticed any balance issues. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Skulks usually cant be bothered to use cloak and the comm drops an obs at each base stopping them that do cloak anyway.
Focus? Armour level 1 straight away. But you have to remember that gorges HAVE to drop the chambers first. I mean, honestly, how many games have u played that a skulk INSTANTLY goes gorge and drops 3 dcs? Not many, normally just when the second hive is going to go up, and by then the rines should have armour level 1, and focus is a waste of res.
Cloak kills are easy kills for both the teams. How? Well a skulk can easily kill a rine that cant see him, but if the rine does see him or the comm scans, then the skulk is surprised and by then he's dead <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo--> Also, if the aliens lose a hive or two but keep the chambers, they cant use them, because it depends on the number of hives. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
dnom makes a good point, aliens still have to buy those chambers, it's not as if aliens are just always going to have any upgrade they want which is how arete seems to be putting it.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This idea would just completely throw the entire game system out of whack. Its just too much for aliens to be able to have multiple upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
cmon now arete... the combinations aren't THAT vast. in fact, you yourself mentioned the 3 combinations that will be used 90% of the time. fades will have regen, lerks might have adrenaline, and skulks should have cloak. i don't think the marine team will be paralyzed by this variety. and this is only possible if the alien team could afford to drop 90 resources of chambers. it's pretty hard to get the initial three sometimes...
i strongly recommend you play on an unchained server, if you get first hand experience of unchained messing up the game balance then you've got an argument, else it's just your word against someone elses... just look at that vote count!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Developers of a game have a better view of the game as a whole compared to individual players. Reason being the individual player generally sides with one race ect. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
developers are really just players too... they are easily capable of having the same bias as players... they're just people like us, they make mistakes and need help sometimes, that's the whole point of these forums.
I think that unchaining chambers is a quick remedy for a bigger problem. There are res flow problems for larger games, there are balancing issues for the alien classes, etc.
Unchained simply gives flexibility to the alien team. I'd like to see these other, much larger issues dealt with, instead of giving the game a "quick fix."
I think that the polls that are being run here are simply proving the point that most of the community believes that the current beta has a decent amount of marine bias to it, particularly as games get larger. I believe that is the lesson that the development team needs to learn from this; however, I'd rather they give the alien team appropriate buffs and a fixed res system.
It's more than marine bias, in my opinion. I've been playing almost exclusivly unchained for a while now, and when I play on servers that are chained, it's just less fun to play alien. You have no choices. It's a matter of deciding who will drop DC, who will drop hive, and who will go fade. Nothing else matters but fades and DC. Part of this is due to larger issues, it's true. But on an unchained server, dropping a couple SC to help at a choke point is a viable strategy, with risks and benefits, along with many other possible tactics that simply aren't viable when going SC first is still almost suicide vs good marines. It's about veriety and choices much more than balance, and making aliens more fun. And with 3/4 of the forum goers here voting for it, with the rest split between no and don't care, it's pretty obvious that the vast majority of us think it's a good idea. I can't imagine ANY other major gameplay change (Other than bug fixes) getting more less than 40% of the forum very much against it.
<!--QuoteBegin-Dnom+Sep 24 2004, 08:11 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Dnom @ Sep 24 2004, 08:11 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I play on a server that has unchained chambers as a NS mod...and I havent noticed any balance issues. <!--emo&;)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wink-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wink-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--> <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> OMG!
Tell me now where I can download that pluggin for AdminMod or your goat dies!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's more than marine bias, in my opinion. I've been playing almost exclusivly unchained for a while now, and when I play on servers that are chained, it's just less fun to play alien. You have no choices. It's a matter of deciding who will drop DC, who will drop hive, and who will go fade. Nothing else matters but fades and DC. Part of this is due to larger issues, it's true. But on an unchained server, dropping a couple SC to help at a choke point is a viable strategy, with risks and benefits, along with many other possible tactics that simply aren't viable when going SC first is still almost suicide vs good marines. It's about veriety and choices much more than balance, and making aliens more fun. And with 3/4 of the forum goers here voting for it, with the rest split between no and don't care, it's pretty obvious that the vast majority of us think it's a good idea. I can't imagine ANY other major gameplay change (Other than bug fixes) getting more less than 40% of the forum very much against it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. We predicted this long long ago when unchained chambers was first suggested. The poll gave a response. The devs... zzzzz... oops! Somebody tease them with a sandwich or something. Please.
I play on an unchained chamber server all the time, and I find no real balance issues, the team that wins is usually the team that would win with chained chambers (aka the more skilled team).
But the one major thing about unchained chambers...
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>PLAYING ALIENS IS MORE FUN!!!</span>
SCs are viable, which means with tactical use skulks are viable to hold precious ground (until HA trains start coming)... the game is no longer totally dependant on a good fade or 2 to hold the entire game for the aliens... a few skulks + a hidden SC (usually in a decent vent where marines can't shoot it) is really effective.
Also Unchained games tend to last a bit longer than chained games, because the aliens spend more time building defence networks, in tactical ways.
Which means it is very hard for marines to rush in and decimate the aliens, and the aliens take longer to get higher life, but when they do they are much more effective because of the support stations and defence network formed earlier (DCs SCs and even the odd MC)
It also allows the 7v7+ games to be more balanced, but works just as well at 6v6…
But the BEST thing it does in my opinion, it puts the need for team play back on the marines, no longer can Rambo’s stroll around the map owning every skulk they see… because a clever skulk will use an SC, or cloak to kill the Rambo.
Sure it is not perfect and it alone won’t fix every problem in NS, resource system still needs fixing, RFK for marines should maybe be removed (or at least lowered)… along with bug/map issues (MCs teleporting Oni (onos) into things and getting stuck for example)…
But, balance issues aside, and even IF unchained chambers raise a few balance issues… it really should be made official for one reason and one reason alone…
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>It makes aliens more FUN to play.</span>
<!--QuoteBegin-x5+Sep 27 2004, 08:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (x5 @ Sep 27 2004, 08:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->We predicted this long long ago when unchained chambers was first suggested. The poll gave a response. The devs... zzzzz... oops! Somebody tease them with a sandwich or something. Please.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Right. They obviously should be spending their time on radical changes to the core gameplay when they're trying to finalize a version.
I like unchained chambers, but it would probably be bad to throw it in a 3.0 patch. Wait until the next version.
<!--QuoteBegin-sawce+Sep 30 2004, 06:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (sawce @ Sep 30 2004, 06:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> I like unchained chambers, but it would probably be bad to throw it in a 3.0 patch. Wait until the next version. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Of course. No one is expecting this for beta 6.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's more than marine bias, in my opinion. I've been playing almost exclusivly unchained for a while now, and when I play on servers that are chained, it's just less fun to play alien. You have no choices. It's a matter of deciding who will drop DC, who will drop hive, and who will go fade. Nothing else matters but fades and DC. Part of this is due to larger issues, it's true. But on an unchained server, dropping a couple SC to help at a choke point is a viable strategy, with risks and benefits, along with many other possible tactics that simply aren't viable when going SC first is still almost suicide vs good marines. It's about veriety and choices much more than balance, and making aliens more fun. And with 3/4 of the forum goers here voting for it, with the rest split between no and don't care, it's pretty obvious that the vast majority of us think it's a good idea. I can't imagine ANY other major gameplay change (Other than bug fixes) getting more less than 40% of the forum very much against it.
You're forgetting that having chained chambers is important to the RTS element of the game. Nemesis Zero spoke about it in a recent interview. Unchaining the chambers gives aliens more of a chance in the current version, but it's a poor man's fix for underlying problems in the balance of the current version. The balance is for 15 minutes, meaning it's a technology war more than it is a territory war. I have no problem with tech > territory, but there needs to be a more balanced ratio than what exists now.
Also, the aliens depends essentially on the overpowered fade to save the other underpowered classes. I understand that the Kharaa team is based on winning through higher lifeforms, but a skulk should be a more effective unit in the early game.
The latest versions of NS took away from the skulk the overall darkness of many parts of the map, giving skulks less to hide in, and fixed many of the hitbox prolems that existed to the skulks advantage. The skulks need appropriate compensation, preferably in the form of a + 10 AP boost.
On top of making the classes for the aliens better balance-wise, the res system needs to be scaled differently, so that servers that support upwards of 20 people aren't having to deal with aliens lacking res like crazy.
Comments
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It's being tested as we speak; unchained servers exist and a wide variety of players frequent them. Taking down hives is certainly a little more difficult, but not as much as you might think. Both sides have around a 50% chance of winning on unchained servers, which is far more balanced than the rabid marine bias currently present in Classic. Try it out, if nothing else, it's a lot of fun <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
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<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This would, in fact, require extra testing. Namely, as MagiTek mentioned, trying to take down the building or the already-up second hive vs. aliens with D upgrades that are teleporting in with MCs is going to be more than a little difficult. That's one of the levers ns balance turns around right now: choosing between higher in-combat effectiveness and delayed response time for a threat to the new hive, or increased mobility vs. lessened in-combat effectiveness. If the aliens don't have to make that choice, a way will have to be found to buff the marines.
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It's being tested as we speak; unchained servers exist and a wide variety of players frequent them. Taking down hives is certainly a little more difficult, but not as much as you might think. Both sides have around a 50% chance of winning on unchained servers, which is far more balanced than the rabid marine bias currently present in Classic. Try it out, if nothing else, it's a lot of fun <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny, I've played about 3 dozen games on unchained servers and the team that would win in this current version (without Unchained Chambers) was the team that won in that.
I don't know what that means (I can't assume anything) but it's my experience.
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<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This would, in fact, require extra testing. Namely, as MagiTek mentioned, trying to take down the building or the already-up second hive vs. aliens with D upgrades that are teleporting in with MCs is going to be more than a little difficult. That's one of the levers ns balance turns around right now: choosing between higher in-combat effectiveness and delayed response time for a threat to the new hive, or increased mobility vs. lessened in-combat effectiveness. If the aliens don't have to make that choice, a way will have to be found to buff the marines.
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It's being tested as we speak; unchained servers exist and a wide variety of players frequent them. Taking down hives is certainly a little more difficult, but not as much as you might think. Both sides have around a 50% chance of winning on unchained servers, which is far more balanced than the rabid marine bias currently present in Classic. Try it out, if nothing else, it's a lot of fun <!--emo&:)--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/smile-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='smile-fix.gif' /><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Funny, I've played about 3 dozen games on unchained servers and the team that would win in this current version (without Unchained Chambers) was the team that won in that.
I don't know what that means (I can't assume anything) but it's my experience. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Erm... So... The 'marine bias' thing (we kinda have now) still exists when you gamed Unchained? Right?
Anyway, what's the word from the devs about all this? (Amost 80% of people saying YES is a MASSIVE skew not to be ignored)
Cloaking + focus + healing + 30 seconds into the game = mayhaps small unbalance?
Marines can just move in groups of 2 if they know there is an alien at X location.
By the way, unchained chambers dont help alien teams that are total suck.
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One word: Scan
Don't want to scan? Kill the alien res nodes instead and avoid that single area... they spent their cash on upgrade chambers... THEY CAN'T REPLACE THEM.
Second... Marines just... LET aliens build all this unhindered outside their base? "marines + turrets + sieges + a phase gate + mines = small unbalance?" No... It = a bad alien team. Just like your senario (which assumes aliens have infinite res apparently) = Bad marines.
This isn't combat... you can't mindlessly zerg at the closest location of aliens... THINK before you act. Its the whole point of classic... to make you actually think about what you're doing/where you're going/who you're killing.
Edit: oh... and the people against the unchaining of chambers (who think they are the majority... They must be in the denial stage... next comes acceptance? or hatred?), Go on your favorite chained server....
There yet? Its ok we can wait...
Alright... On the aliens? great... Go gorge and drop a SC or a MC. Ahhh getting flamed I see. Booted from the server? Banned you say... ouch.
Do you see my point yet? If the community supports the chaining of chambers... why is it that people get **** off when you drop MC or SC first? why is it that there are servers that BAN on the drop of a SC or MC first?
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gopher: Quite some time ago there has been a lot of talking in the community about unchaining the chambers yet no official word was said regarding the subject. Can you tell us if this feature has been actually acknowledged by the devs and are there maybe any plans to try it out in one of the future betas?
Zunni: At this point what I can say, is since I've been in the dev group (which is about a month now) I haven't seen any conversations regarding it. That's not to say that they didn't happen when people were actively discussing it, but I haven't seen anything really recently (We have been really busy preparing the B5 release). The problem with things like unchained chambers is they require a substantial amount of programming time and effort to add, and then the entire balance of the game is thrown off, and if it doesn't end up working then you get nothing back for that time/effort. We have enough features that we know will work in the game that we still have to put into it to keep us busy for a while. But like almost everything (except maybe scorpions hovering) it's not an impossibility.
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From the interview with Zunni posted in the news forum.
I'm completely confused. They say that it takes a substantial amount of programming time and effort to add: double-you tee eff? There is a plugin right now that unchains the chambers. Are we supposed to believe that Flayra can't do what the community whipped up in a few days?
Yes, it would require testing. Yes, it may very well throw balance off, though given the state of Classic currently, the term "balance" is some far off mystical fantasy that we can only dream of. But so does bringing in any new feature or changing any existing code.
Well, I suppose that's it. At least we finally got a response, though the mods might as well lock these threads because it all ment nothing. I'm angered that the votes of so many people have simply been ignored. The only consolation is that there are unchained servers out there as a result of these threads, and there at least myself and many others can enjoy Classic.
I don't know what that means (I can't assume anything) but it's my experience. <!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, to me that means that balance isn't adversely affected - you want the better team to be winning. That's good. In which case, how much fun have you found it? Do you find unchaining less fun than standard NS?
At the same time, though, Zunni also said the following <a href='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=68802&hl=unchain' target='_blank'>here</a>:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->After much discussion with Trevelyan to figure what he was talking about..
He has a valid idea...
I support this like a pair of old suspenders support pants.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Also, as he said:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Funny, I've played about 3 dozen games on unchained servers and the team that would win in this current version (without Unchained Chambers) was the team that won in that.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So it seems that he doesn't think it's unbalanced after all.
My question is: Did he change his mind, or is he just ambivalent about the difficulties of implementing this versus the rewards?
Personally, I suspect that this will make it into official NS eventually, though definitely not in beta 6. Right now the devs are primarily working on balancing and polishing the game; Once they're finished with that, though, and go looking for new features to implement, I suspect that this will be one of the most obvious.
Probably (and sadly) never...
However I also think that the vote is too ambiguous. I voted yes because I'd like to see it tried, I think it's interesting...not because I'm sure it'll work. Others will have voted because they think it is the answer to everything, others will have tested amx mods with it and formed a positive (or negative) opinion...others may just see "aliens buffed" and vote either no or yes depending on their team preference.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Unchaining chambers was not one..
Though we are having another discussion on that topic..<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
So the devs are discussing this concept! That definitely, <i>definitely</i> bodes well for it. It may be rejected, but at least it's being considered!
from what i DID read, i feel a lot of players forget there are people playing on both sides, and only think of the side they play a lot. personally, i feel unchaining them will be a good help to give the alien side *and i play marine the most personally* a LOT more variation. it keeps the marines on their toes and keeps them from dropping into a set of preset pattern of counters, making them HAVE to find a way to change their patterns on the fly instead.
however, i also feel a lot of earlier posts in here underestimate the skill of many marine players, who i have seen pull some interesting things in games *i.e. a team of marines have a base destroyed by regen + focus fades, relocate, and come back and win with LMGs and a lotta duct tape*. so the aliens get an advantage over marines by unchained. marines arent complete idiots all the time. just as aliens win games with the current system, the marines still can. they just dont get turky shoots all the time.
this is all MHO, however.
but yea. my vote is in favor of unchained. itll make us marine players try harder and reduce rambo's.
i voted yes.
can someone kindly point me in the direction of the forum post where someone lays out a story of their 3 or 5 unchained games where the aliens absoultely owned the marines solely due to the chambers being unchained? Stop claiming it will destroy the game! I've played on unchained servers and just like zunni has said, the team that won in unchained games was probably the same team that would have won in a chained game.
tell me about some experiences where unchained wrecked a games balance...
From my standpoint, and I play Alien/Marine 50/50, I consider myself extremely skilled on both sides and I enjoy them all the same...
This idea would just completely throw the entire game system out of whack. Its just too much for aliens to be able to have multiple upgrades. You can't go "There is a fade, they have D chambers up!" You'd go "There is a fade, he has regen, oh look a cloaked skulk, hey a spam gassing adrenaline using lerk!". The combinations are too vast at only one hive.
Also, there is no figuring out which hive has D chambers and killing it, thus preventing future chambers from being built. I think its just too much for people to be able to rotate upgrades like this. 8 aliens all with different random upgrades is just too much.
Skulks usually cant be bothered to use cloak and the comm drops an obs at each base stopping them that do cloak anyway.
Focus? Armour level 1 straight away.
But you have to remember that gorges HAVE to drop the chambers first. I mean, honestly, how many games have u played that a skulk INSTANTLY goes gorge and drops 3 dcs? Not many, normally just when the second hive is going to go up, and by then the rines should have armour level 1, and focus is a waste of res.
Cloak kills are easy kills for both the teams. How? Well a skulk can easily kill a rine that cant see him, but if the rine does see him or the comm scans, then the skulk is surprised and by then he's dead <!--emo&:p--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/tounge.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='tounge.gif' /><!--endemo-->
Also, if the aliens lose a hive or two but keep the chambers, they cant use them, because it depends on the number of hives. <!--emo&::nerdy::--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/nerd-fix.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='nerd-fix.gif' /><!--endemo-->
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->This idea would just completely throw the entire game system out of whack. Its just too much for aliens to be able to have multiple upgrades.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
cmon now arete... the combinations aren't THAT vast. in fact, you yourself mentioned the 3 combinations that will be used 90% of the time. fades will have regen, lerks might have adrenaline, and skulks should have cloak. i don't think the marine team will be paralyzed by this variety. and this is only possible if the alien team could afford to drop 90 resources of chambers. it's pretty hard to get the initial three sometimes...
i strongly recommend you play on an unchained server, if you get first hand experience of unchained messing up the game balance then you've got an argument, else it's just your word against someone elses... just look at that vote count!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->Developers of a game have a better view of the game as a whole compared to individual players. Reason being the individual player generally sides with one race ect.
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developers are really just players too... they are easily capable of having the same bias as players... they're just people like us, they make mistakes and need help sometimes, that's the whole point of these forums.
Unchained simply gives flexibility to the alien team. I'd like to see these other, much larger issues dealt with, instead of giving the game a "quick fix."
I think that the polls that are being run here are simply proving the point that most of the community believes that the current beta has a decent amount of marine bias to it, particularly as games get larger. I believe that is the lesson that the development team needs to learn from this; however, I'd rather they give the alien team appropriate buffs and a fixed res system.
<!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> OMG!
Tell me now where I can download that pluggin for AdminMod or your goat dies!
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->It's more than marine bias, in my opinion. I've been playing almost exclusivly unchained for a while now, and when I play on servers that are chained, it's just less fun to play alien. You have no choices. It's a matter of deciding who will drop DC, who will drop hive, and who will go fade. Nothing else matters but fades and DC. Part of this is due to larger issues, it's true. But on an unchained server, dropping a couple SC to help at a choke point is a viable strategy, with risks and benefits, along with many other possible tactics that simply aren't viable when going SC first is still almost suicide vs good marines. It's about veriety and choices much more than balance, and making aliens more fun. And with 3/4 of the forum goers here voting for it, with the rest split between no and don't care, it's pretty obvious that the vast majority of us think it's a good idea. I can't imagine ANY other major gameplay change (Other than bug fixes) getting more less than 40% of the forum very much against it. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree. We predicted this long long ago when unchained chambers was first suggested. The poll gave a response. The devs... zzzzz... oops! Somebody tease them with a sandwich or something. Please.
But the one major thing about unchained chambers...
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>PLAYING ALIENS IS MORE FUN!!!</span>
SCs are viable, which means with tactical use skulks are viable to hold precious ground (until HA trains start coming)... the game is no longer totally dependant on a good fade or 2 to hold the entire game for the aliens... a few skulks + a hidden SC (usually in a decent vent where marines can't shoot it) is really effective.
Also Unchained games tend to last a bit longer than chained games, because the aliens spend more time building defence networks, in tactical ways.
Which means it is very hard for marines to rush in and decimate the aliens, and the aliens take longer to get higher life, but when they do they are much more effective because of the support stations and defence network formed earlier (DCs SCs and even the odd MC)
It also allows the 7v7+ games to be more balanced, but works just as well at 6v6…
But the BEST thing it does in my opinion, it puts the need for team play back on the marines, no longer can Rambo’s stroll around the map owning every skulk they see… because a clever skulk will use an SC, or cloak to kill the Rambo.
Sure it is not perfect and it alone won’t fix every problem in NS, resource system still needs fixing, RFK for marines should maybe be removed (or at least lowered)… along with bug/map issues (MCs teleporting Oni (onos) into things and getting stuck for example)…
But, balance issues aside, and even IF unchained chambers raise a few balance issues… it really should be made official for one reason and one reason alone…
<span style='font-size:14pt;line-height:100%'>It makes aliens more FUN to play.</span>
Right. They obviously should be spending their time on radical changes to the core gameplay when they're trying to finalize a version.
I like unchained chambers, but it would probably be bad to throw it in a 3.0 patch. Wait until the next version.
Of course. No one is expecting this for beta 6.
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You're forgetting that having chained chambers is important to the RTS element of the game. Nemesis Zero spoke about it in a recent interview. Unchaining the chambers gives aliens more of a chance in the current version, but it's a poor man's fix for underlying problems in the balance of the current version. The balance is for 15 minutes, meaning it's a technology war more than it is a territory war. I have no problem with tech > territory, but there needs to be a more balanced ratio than what exists now.
Also, the aliens depends essentially on the overpowered fade to save the other underpowered classes. I understand that the Kharaa team is based on winning through higher lifeforms, but a skulk should be a more effective unit in the early game.
The latest versions of NS took away from the skulk the overall darkness of many parts of the map, giving skulks less to hide in, and fixed many of the hitbox prolems that existed to the skulks advantage. The skulks need appropriate compensation, preferably in the form of a + 10 AP boost.
On top of making the classes for the aliens better balance-wise, the res system needs to be scaled differently, so that servers that support upwards of 20 people aren't having to deal with aliens lacking res like crazy.