Marine Strategy Pwning Aliens
Julien
Join Date: 2003-09-02 Member: 20495Members
Join Date: 2003-09-02 Member: 20495Members
<div class="IPBDescription">What's a good counter?</div> In the servers I frequent, a number of regulars have hit upon a very effective strategy for shutting down alien expansion and the entire alien team in short order. These are usually 10 vs 10, -ns- maps but the marines have taken a strategy from combat... They're spawn camping.
This strategy takes merciless advantage of any mistake an alien player makes to send him back into a one-hive spawn queue. And I hope you guys can suggest some good counters to this.
You see, groups of marines are heading straight for the alien's one hive near the start of the game and just waiting outside. A few lmg sharpshooters guard the other exits out of the hive (vents, long corridors, etc.)
They don't build anything (except maybe a phase gate) they don't shoot any alien structures, they just surprise and kill the first unsuspecting aliens walking out of the hive. Then a few of them run in and out, picking off skulks as they respawn one by one.
All this, while one or two other lone marines are busily rt'ing up the rest of the map, easily mutilating the alien rts that have been placed (since no skulk can get through the marine blockade to rescue them.)
The aliens are desperately fighting to regain some initiative, but it's a lost battle due to sheer probability.
Assume on any team you have some beginners, some intermediate and some advanced players. The beginner skulks get torn to pieces as they either run towards the marines or try to hide from them in lousy places. (They go into the spawn queue.) The intermediate skulks kill one or two marines, and are killed by the other marines around. (They go into spawn queue.)
The expert players kill two or three marines at best and are also killed by the sheer number of lmgs mowing them down. (Remember the marines have selected the battlefield on their terms, long corridors etc.) They go into spawn queue.
The marines are getting upgrades, shotguns, hmgs, etc as the jps and ha gets researched.
Half to three quarters of the alien team is sitting in the spawn queue, feeling extremely demoralized. Only one of them is spawning at a time and getting skewered by many lines of lmg fire, without a chance to fight back.
No one can fade because no one can get any rts or rescue the old ones. Oc'ing up the hive doesn't do any good because the marines aren't walking in, anyway. Is there an effective counter to this?
I thought of scs, but that's only a temporary solution at best, once observatory ping starts, aliens are even more screwed.
This was on ns_origin, btw, aliens started in biodome one game, ventilation the other, same result.
This strategy takes merciless advantage of any mistake an alien player makes to send him back into a one-hive spawn queue. And I hope you guys can suggest some good counters to this.
You see, groups of marines are heading straight for the alien's one hive near the start of the game and just waiting outside. A few lmg sharpshooters guard the other exits out of the hive (vents, long corridors, etc.)
They don't build anything (except maybe a phase gate) they don't shoot any alien structures, they just surprise and kill the first unsuspecting aliens walking out of the hive. Then a few of them run in and out, picking off skulks as they respawn one by one.
All this, while one or two other lone marines are busily rt'ing up the rest of the map, easily mutilating the alien rts that have been placed (since no skulk can get through the marine blockade to rescue them.)
The aliens are desperately fighting to regain some initiative, but it's a lost battle due to sheer probability.
Assume on any team you have some beginners, some intermediate and some advanced players. The beginner skulks get torn to pieces as they either run towards the marines or try to hide from them in lousy places. (They go into the spawn queue.) The intermediate skulks kill one or two marines, and are killed by the other marines around. (They go into spawn queue.)
The expert players kill two or three marines at best and are also killed by the sheer number of lmgs mowing them down. (Remember the marines have selected the battlefield on their terms, long corridors etc.) They go into spawn queue.
The marines are getting upgrades, shotguns, hmgs, etc as the jps and ha gets researched.
Half to three quarters of the alien team is sitting in the spawn queue, feeling extremely demoralized. Only one of them is spawning at a time and getting skewered by many lines of lmg fire, without a chance to fight back.
No one can fade because no one can get any rts or rescue the old ones. Oc'ing up the hive doesn't do any good because the marines aren't walking in, anyway. Is there an effective counter to this?
I thought of scs, but that's only a temporary solution at best, once observatory ping starts, aliens are even more screwed.
This was on ns_origin, btw, aliens started in biodome one game, ventilation the other, same result.
Comments
Are they trying for this tatic? Where are they going? How fast? Why? How many?
Parasite all marines before attempting to kill them. This way, even if you don't kill him, you gather valuable intelligence on his movements.
If they are trying for this tatic, don't run straight head on to them. This is what they expect, this is what they want. Sun Tzu said a quote that is very useful here. And while i cannot recall it correctly, it goes something like this: "If the enemy is of weaker strength, attack him. If the enemy is of equal strength, ambush him. If the enemy is of greater strength, avoid him".
9 marines shooting in the same direction is going to stop 10 skulks heading for them, so don't even bother. Instead, ambush, sneak behind, seperate them, cause confusion within the ranks. As long as they are not a solid force, you can try to pick them off one by one. They have the advantage in range. Do whatever you can to close up the gap in range so you can do what you do best.
Ocs in the hive will help with the spawncamping.
If the marines get into the spawncamping position, there is no hope for you. `quit, f4, get a magazine, whatever; just sit back. the game is over.
Since the whole team is in your base, what is stopping you from killing thiers?
This is the best i can do. Sorry, i don't have alot of experience with spawncamping; my regular server bans for it.
Easier solutions are MC/SC to boost the earlygame, and hence circumvent that huge problem of being camped in large games within the first 4 minutes. I prefer MC because it ends up being more flexible, but SC is definitely the biggest boost to the Alien earlygame and Hive defense.
So yeah, try that if you have any people you know on the server - get 2 guys to drop MC or SC at the start.
The best way to prevent this is to have some skulks running towards marine start when the game begins. I always head there since you never know if you'll catch marines off-guard, getting lots of easy RFK, or even ending the game. Dropping sensory seems like the worst thing to do, as you're already at a disadvantage should you break the spawncamp.
anyways, just before u spawn, prepare to jump and hold down W tightly... when u respawn u do get a second delay from your body to your control, so once u do ull be running around jumping, thus harder to hit by even the best of marines... if u think marines are going to do this, do what sandstorm said, rush them, make the battlefield on UR terms, denie them access outside the hive if u have to (by ambushing the guys from behind through vents)
the best thing u can have when rines are spawn camping is a couple of skulks behind them while they spawn camp from outside hive... the best think for skulks who have evaded spawn killing is cloaking or silence (silence is my favourite cos comm cant ping u from using it)
if the hive is viaduct, try running up the bits to the side with the red lights shining on it and get to the top, then its a simple case of finding that dam vent at the back so u can try (remember i said try) breaking the marine lines...
the gud thing about most ns maps is that there is always a vent system running directly from hive to hive... so if u can get in one of these vents, u could secure another hive if rines are too busy spawn camping...
a) make sure they don't get it early. If they do get there ever, you're pretty much limited to two choices.
b) IF they get into the hive and set camp, you're stuck to
- SCs
- Escaping and ambushing from the back
<b> Sensory Chambers</b>
Your best choice. You're cloaked, and you're not detectable until an Obs is built. This means you can go for the whole team and wehn they're killed, the comm is probably out of his seat building the Obs and just completed. The only downsides are you throw away the ability for a cost-effective Fade (but not so cost-effective is marines attempt and succeed a camp) and are vulnerable to spawncamping again (Obs == Scan, Scan == Decloak)
<b> EnA (Escape and Ambush)</b>
Another plan, but it will be tough unless you have a vent near the hive where marines can't see you go through. If you do succeed, you can launch a pincer (if you have more aliens outside with you) on the marines and hopefully decimate them. The downside is that you're most of the time on solo, meaning no backup for back attack. The other downside is that good marines will have their buddy watch their backs for aliens trying an ambush.
The choice is yours.
EDIT : I forgot to mention that even though marines try to fight on their terms, like long hallways/corridors, they'll be most like at the other side, and not the middle, where it is effective to cover both sides in. Meaning EnA works VERY well in the case the there are no L-shaped long corridors (there rarely are anyway)
(Sry for the bad grammar im quite <!--emo&:0--><img src='http://www.unknownworlds.com/forums/html//emoticons/wow.gif' border='0' style='vertical-align:middle' alt='wow.gif' /><!--endemo--> tired but you get my point)
If u want a real NS play, just get pcw
There should already be at least 2 gorges out of the hive probably dropping RT's....
Send the rest of the team to ambush the marines which you should have a clue the numbers based on reporting(also will give the scout skulks a chance to respawn).
SC's are an interesting/good idea to break the initial camp, the issue is after the initial camp the comm will have elec'd all the other RT's and fades etc will have a tough time breaking that.
Marines worked together, Have the aliens do the same, wait until the group is in place and EVERYONE rush from the front, back etc.. The skulks in front will die, but the skulks rushing from behind should take the majority down because people are mostly worried about threats from in front and they should have taken advantage of some marine cross fire.
What makes this tactic BRUTAL is no FF for mines.. Marines drop mines and now skulks not only have to watch for enemy fire, but also exploding mines.
I'd drop DC and sprint to another hive or begin capping rts. You could drop an OC as a deterrent to any rines in the hive room. You could also counter rush at game start, trying to take out the marine base while they're playing away from home.
Try not to totally abandon the hive, since the marines will likely rush in and flatten it while you're all playing away from home. A dedicated player saving for hive will soon have it up, and then you need to instantly rush the marines in order to put them on the defensive for the rest of the game.
The best way to deal with it is EnA and lots of teamwork. If you can get two groups of skulks to set up the ambush, one from the side, the other from the back, it'll completely take down the marines. Even if one or two remain, use EnA type tactics to take 'em down.
A good response to this would be to rush marine spawn. If you take down 6 marines, take all remaining forces and move as quickly as possible to their spawn so you can take down at least 1 IP, the OB, and an armory. Who knows, you may get away with pretty much their whole base, especially if you can get reinforcements to keep coming. It may buy you some valuble time in taking down some of their RT's and maybe getting the 2nd hive up.
Other than that, sneak around behind and try to ambush the marines. It's the only thing that will work.
Other than that, instead of OCing up the hive, OC up the long corridors leading to the hive room. This is ALWAYS a better spot to put OCs than in the hive room. Putting stuff in the hive room is silly when you can put stuff on the long hallways that lead to the hive and keep the marines not only out of your hive, but out of the siege spots. And if you can put OCs even further up than that, do it. Static defense is stupid unless it's the front line.
Once you start losing resource towers though, it's game over. You have to be smart to play as skulk now. More and more people are learning to be smart marines, so you have to get wise to beat them. Parasite marines for one thing, because it wallhacks them and lets you know where they are until they die. Always stay at long range and parasite marines first. In fact, parasite them three or even four times once they get armor one, because it will strip them back down so that it only takes two bites to kill them. Parasite is the number one most underrated alien skill. You don't need a lot of energy when you're actually biting marines, so use your energy bar to parasite marines until they start moving forward.
Ambush, always. Never rush unless you have superior numbers. Never rush unless something that costs more than a skulk is in danger, such as a gorge or a resource tower. If you can stay alive but keep what you're defending alive, then do that instead. This means that you should try to get the marines to shoot at you and miss, distract them, and make them spend more time doing things. As a skulk, always stay with the group. The more targets the marines have, the less everyone is being hit, this is ALWAYS TRUE.
As a gorge, your job is to build things, and when not building things, either heal other things, help build other things, or turn back into a skulk and go back on the offensive. HOWEVER, a gorge can be a very good asset on the front lines very early in the game. If you can hide in a vent as a gorge and healspray any damaged skulks, you can cost the marines valuable time and men trying to take a position. Healspray when your skulks get carapace, healspray even if they don't have carapace, healspray other gorges and go help out skulk rushes, healspray any alien you see even if he has full health. Just like welding, nobody should have to ask for healspray. The moment you see something friendly, healspray should be your way of saying hello. You have no excuse.
When you're a gorge and you see a marine though, spit at him. Healspray does so little damage now, you won't kill anything with it unless he's already been bit once and has zero armor. You'll hit more often with healspray, but unless you can't aim spit at all, use spit instead. Spit does 25 damage to marines with no armor. If you have three gorges all spitting down the same long corridor, that's quite a lot of damage flying around. And since spit has infinite range, you can actually hold marines off forever if the hallway is sufficiently long and you have enough gorges all spitting at the same time. Because spit has infinite range, being a gorge is a little like being a marine. You want to be able to duck behind cover as a gorge while popping out to spit if the marine puts himself in your view. Never wait for the marine to get close as a gorge. Spit at him the whole time. 25 damage adds up quick. It adds up even quicker if you're spitting along with nearby OCs.
Just start playing smart. Parasite. Don't rush EVER, and take up position in key spots. Wait for the marines to make themselves vulnerable, and then smack them down ruthlessly. Also, you can always cost the marines enough resources to sway the game back to your side if you manage to take out their base. Any time you have enough skulks willing to listen to you and the marine base doesn't have any defenses of it's own, on a large game, it's enough to take down the base as long as everyone knows to hit the phasegate first, then the armory if it's upgraded while camping the IP, then the IPs. A base rush can work if you all rush at the same time and it's the whole team.
The reason spawn camping as the marines works is because like 90% of their team is outside your hive. Meanwhile there are only three or four guys on their side capping rts and taking down your own. If the aliens can do the same thing to the marines EARLIER, then they should do that. Gather intellegence for your team by using parasite, don't throw yourself away, and ambush with superior numbers. Aliens need to stick together more than marines at the start of the game, and the reason the marines can beat them all the way back to their hive is because in the beginning, aliens need just as much teamwork as marines. There needs to be a plan, and people need to know what role they're filling, whether it's the team res-horder, the guy who puts up the DCs, the vent camper who parasites everyone, the RT killers, the marine killers, or whatever.
Ramble ramble ramble. I'ma go git a coke!
Any server admin that chooses to ban for this sort of thing has little to no understanding of strategy aspects in NS as this is not your average deathmatch mod.
As for your original question, if aliens go in all gorge and spam the marine spawn exits with OC's and DC's, totally stopping any marine advance by healspraying the OCs while a couple of gorges go around the map putting up rts and hives, or a couple of skulks take the spot on the ceiling in udefended marine spawn as the commander chooses to ignore IP defence, should marines deserve to have a chance to come back? They made a critical strategic error after all. Same with the situation you describe - aliens made a critical strategic error, which is not really supposed to have a way of recovery. Otherwise, there would be no meaning to strategy in NS.
Wait...what?
How the heck does putting up sens first lead to the marines raping your hive with shotties? And this goes for a couple of other posts in this thread: can we please get the notion that sc = gg out of our heads?! Sure fades really want dcs, BUT if you use the scs correctly, the marines' growth will be so stunted someone will get that second hive up with no trouble, and then you'll get dcs, and in the meantime the marines have been succesfully contained. This is all assuming, of course, that the aliens don't see the sense chamber go down and immediately give up all hope of winning.
Early spawn camping rines have poor armour, and without armour, they take 6 damage per spore attack. That's a lot of res early game a comm. has to drop to keep his marines alive from sporing.
What usually happens instead is that marines have to back off. Now they aren't in prime spawn killing position. Get skulks to secure the corridor, then get the lerk to move up and spore the next position they take. If marines try to rush the lerk, skulks rape the marines. If not, marines pull back until the spawn camp is broken.
And chances are an almost full marine team spawn camping against a lerk is almost certain to be wiped out en masse once the skulks reach critical mass.
However, the lerk has to be #%#%#%#%# COWARDLY. Sporing is the lerk's best ability early game. Abuse it. Stop marines from knifing RTs. Stop marines from clustering up, Make marines panick and lose their aim. Don't try to bite unless you are supremely confident or it's desperate. 2 marines, 1 marine with good aim, bad luck, 1 shotgun takes out your lerk. Don't try to bite and a lerk is going to be very useful sporing.
Many clans drop an OC in the hive on small maps where this is likely to occur and you normally have someone saving res for lerk too. Just in case.
The only thing I can think of adding of importance that hasn't been already highlighted is <b>use skulks to spot for spores</b>.
Once parasited, the marine is an easy target for a lerk. Providing all marines are parasited, there is no way that a marine should be able to kill your lerk.
Also, someone mentioned that spore should be your only attack, and I agree with this totally. Lerk bite is cool and everything, but chances are that you aren't uberleet. You're going to run into trouble if you insist on biting, and you're going to get toasted. Bite is there merely to kill things that aren't shooting at you, such as reloading single marines or abandoned RTs. Spore is infinitely more useful throughout the game until the marines have heavys. The drop in armor marines take mean that spored marines are skulk bait.
Please, if you're going lerk, stop being one of those bite-happy twits fresh out of Combat. The marines don't get auto-medspam, and you don't respawn as a lerk. Spore spore spore, and spore some more. Learn to use spore to fill rooms, instead of just sporing the same spot over and over. Spore is the alien's third long distance attack, and the only distance attack less potentially powerful than acid rocket.
Here are the lessons from 1.04: If the marines get into your hive room in-force, you've most likely already lost (because of the resource/time war, if nothing else. One rambo could have spent all that time getting rts, and you probably now have roughly zero). One skulk acting as a scout, ideally getting most of the marines parasited and otherwise giving you early warning is excellent.
If you know the marines are coming, your best bet is to lie in ambush. A good ambush has skulks come in from several directions, all at once. If you all stand next to each other, the marines can just spray and you're dead. You can either set it up in the hive room (healing advantage) or somewhere along the way (surprise advantage, if you can get there in time).
Another good practice is getting chambers up as soon as reasonably possible. Even if the marines don't rush, 3 chambers within the first few minutes really helps your killing power. It will pay for itself, between extra RFK for you and less for the marines. Where to put them is a gamble - you'll lose them if they're where the marines are spawn camping, you might lose them by placing them in another hive, and placing them in vents or something can block passages that could be vital later. I put DCs wherever is conveniant, MCs spread out but near where gorges will be, and SCs at chokepoints (ideally near ambush spots along the way to the hive).
I'm not a fan of dropping OCs early in the game. They're really ineffective against marines (low HP) unless there's a lot of them or are supported by dcs. You really can't afford them that early in the game. I would much rather somebody lerk than gorge and drop 2 OCs. The real beauty of the OC doesn't come into play until JPs come around.
edit: oh, let's see: the spores from two different lerks will stack, or they can cover more area.
Also, first-minute marines are much more potent than the skulks. Range is a huge advantage against paper thin 1-hive-no-cara armor. A few shotties in the mix can make it worse. If you do not react quickly and as a team, it is extremely easy to lose to a rush. It's nowhere near as bad as 1.04 was (very few clan matches lasted long. By the time the rush was fended off, if at all, jps would finish the job), but it's still pretty wicked. At least the kharaa have some res to play with now, which makes all the difference.
However lerks take a while to get, especially if you're dropping 3 evolution chambers, some rts, and trying to cap another hive. Be very careful of your res spending if the marines are right on your doorstep. Being a lerk is great but if they siege you to hell then spores are less than useless. Ditto dropping 3 MC if noone knows how to use celer, etc.
Just to address another post:
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How the heck does putting up sens first lead to the marines raping your hive with shotties?
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If you drop 3 sens when marines are AGGRESSIVELY HITTING YOUR HIVE, then you've made a gross tactical error. You can't hit and run if the marines are on your doorstep. They KNOW where the hive is. Cloaking it won't help. Cloaking yourself won't help much either, since the marines will run into the hive room and proceed to annihilate the hive. It won't take an awful long amount of time, and if they manage to have a phase up then it WILL be gg.
I love sensory, loved it in 2.0, but never in this sort of situation. If you're on hard defense then you need to be thinking DC or MC in order to hit back HARD. Definitely so on pub servers, where a noob can at least use cara/regen to try and bust through the lines with sheer luck.
I recall games where all the aliens left the hive in NS Lost, and we marines LMG rushed it. Took it down for an easy win. Why? No alien retaliation, unless you call one skulk a liberation army.
SC is nice but if you're cloaking out of base its a bit pointless, it'll let the marines in. Cloak attacks are only so effective, and you'll be spotted when you attack. Focus is nice but again once you're spotted by the marines you'll be diced.
I personally prefer my SCs to be used on marines miles from my hive, ideally placed in an OC/SC ambush that wipes the marines out or leaves them weak for a skulk follow up. I don't see any inherent advantage to dropping SC when under 100% total attack from an organised marine team who have FOUND the hive.
Statements like this increase hackusations, which I abhor. Don't bring us down to the level of CS. Maybe say something like: "unless he's GOOD..."
As far as these discussions go, yes, lerks are the answer to early spawncamp marines. I usually go fade but if I'm only at 30-35 res I may decide that the spawncamping will hurt the team too much to bear until 50 res. So I lerk.
I just played a game like this on caged the other day and totally stopped the marine rush (on gen), giving us time to expand and plant vent, etc. I also took down 2 rts (those rts that the one or two marines run around the map placing while the rest of your team is getting spawn killed) as lerk so it was a close game. They ended up winning in the end but only by a hair.