i think he didnt mean that they are camping at the hive,but normally theres about 2 MAIN halls that are exits to the hive,take eclipse for example
in the middle hive there are 3 exits,the left,which goes a small hall,then a 90 degree turn,they camp around that turn so they dont worry about units in base,just units coming out
then theres the right exit,which is a looong hallway
then theres the vent,to get to the vent you can go over the door of the right exit,and avoid being seen,you choices then are leaving VIA the vent that would come up in a room right next to the looooong hallway watching skulks leaving hive,and another that puts you at the elevator close to pipeline,1 rine per vent can keep skulks from leaving via those vents and your pretty much just stuck in the base unless you get a plan
your left hallway will be the hardest to get out of,because its a 1 way road,the right hallway has the longhallway,but a vent that comes out behind it,if 2-3 skulks come out of the long hallway,at the time 2 skulks leave the vent,kill the 1-2 rines there,then proceed around corner to hit the rines watching the hall,they will most likley be watching down the long hallway for the skulks running out of the hive and most likely you can take them (lerks are always good) ------------------------------- OR they are sitting in hive room and just waiting for a skulk to spawn,killing,then waiting more,thats real spawncamping and the game is already lost,they are just taking there time to cap all the nodes when they could just end it.Most servers frown apon this and admins will tell them to end it,or be kicked if noadmins are round,just f4 and hope teams arent stacked next game
I've found the best counter to this is not to engage the marine squad but rather make a rendevous point and get a small squad of four-six skulks to China rush-em. Preffably attacking from two different directions and from places to close the gap the best such as vents, under floodboards, etc. The China rush is effective if at least a little more than half of them died and all of you died. Hopefully now you can attack in pairs and take them out faster than they can reinforce. Eventually you should be able to push them back and start taking rts again.
<!--QuoteBegin-Necrosis+May 14 2004, 07:13 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> (Necrosis @ May 14 2004, 07:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Just to address another post:
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> How the heck does putting up sens first lead to the marines raping your hive with shotties? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you drop 3 sens when marines are AGGRESSIVELY HITTING YOUR HIVE, then you've made a gross tactical error. You can't hit and run if the marines are on your doorstep. They KNOW where the hive is. Cloaking it won't help. Cloaking yourself won't help much either, since the marines will run into the hive room and proceed to annihilate the hive. It won't take an awful long amount of time, and if they manage to have a phase up then it WILL be gg.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd--> Your comment doesn't address the fact that if you do a proper sens-first strat, the rines shouldn't be in your hive in the first place. What I said was that dropping scs doesn't mean gg early game. Of course scs are useless if the rines are already at your base, but that's pretty much a given anyway.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> Of course scs are useless if the rines are already at your base, but that's pretty much a given anyway <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is what this thread is about, and also what I've said before several times.
In most pubs there simply isn't the before-game organisation to have solid strat..... and it can take rines seconds to rush a hive. If you HAVE dropped sensory, you're probably about to be toasted, and if you drop sensory knowing full well that rines are on the doorstep then you WILL be toasted.
If the rines set up a spawn camp seconds into the game I don't care what chamber you have, you've lost. Heck, if we're talking about insta-gibbing upon spawning in, <u>no</u> chamber really is gonna help you much. So...again I come back to my earlier comment, how exactly is the sc singled out as the chamber that will let you get spawncamped?
No good, because while you won't get spawn camped, tfacs at each hive location = LOCKED OUT
And you lose.
gg no thx to sensory chambers
Honestly sometimes I think the first hive you get should spawn in two aliens at a time (on pubs anyhow), because one good marine can take down so many noob skulks.
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin--> If the rines set up a spawn camp seconds into the game I don't care what chamber you have, you've lost. Heck, if we're talking about insta-gibbing upon spawning in, no chamber really is gonna help you much. So...again I come back to my earlier comment, how exactly is the sc singled out as the chamber that will let you get spawncamped? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DC offers a CHANCE. OCs can offer COVER if nothing else. IMHO MC is about as good as SC if you're spawncamped. With DCs you might survive long enough for your friend to spawn in... he might be able to kill a rine.
If you're in a hive with some DC *in* it you'll get a bit of healing... and with some OC you'll get support fire and something to use as a shield. If a gorge is away from the hive they can drop DC and make sure you KEEP your capacity to upgrade.
In most games you merely need to stay alive long enough for the marines to be discouraged and try another tactic. If some of your team are outside base then you can ambush the lockdown or try for MS and kill the comm before he relocates.
Lets not forget of course that any chamber *can* be a good first choice..... but if you've got marines on the doorstep then only DCs are going to give you some hope of pushing them back. Dropping any chamber without an idea of the enemy plan is usually a bad idea - dropping sensory/movement if the marines are rushing is suicidal. DCs give you breathing space. Its not much but its all you'll have.
Let's see... about 9 bullets to kill you normally w/out upgrades. +1 for 10 hp healed per dc, let's say 3 of them, until they get killed. +2 from the hive healing you. It is very unlikely that you will live more than one heal tick, unless you catch the marines reloading (which is sad, you keep spawning at the same rate).
So, instead of taking about 11 or so bullets, you've made it up to 14. Considering several marines on one person (you), and you holding still and being disoriented for a short time upon spawning, it's not going to make a big difference.
Actually, if you know you're in deep trouble, and you're already a gorge in decent position, dropping an OC under hive can help a fair bit. More about distraction than anything, but every bullet that hits the OC is one that will miss the skulks hopefully coming to help you (OCs have this amazing way of making marines stop paying attention). It only takes a few spikes to reduce lvl1 armor down to 2 bites, also. It will be more useful than a chamber.
Totally agree. Especially if you KNOW your entire team are going to run off on offense. Drop some OC - it'll give you breathing space IF the marines have decided to rush you.
GrendelAll that is fear...Join Date: 2002-07-19Member: 970Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor, NS2 Playtester
The larger the game, the more effective a "zerg rush" will be.
Example:
One of the main tactics used in NS pre 1.0 release was waiting for a gap to open up in the marine defences, then destroying the base.
If you have 10+ marines spreading out all over the map and securing nodes, the commander will be low on resources and the base will have limited defence. Under these circumstances, 6+ skulks should be able to slip past marine lines using vents and hit the virtually empty marine base.
The whole base, even if covered by a TF, should go down in a few seconds to a handful of skulks, crippling the marines, if not winning the game outright.
Currently, marines feel free to expand because they don't feel they need to defend base particularly well. If they do, well, that costs them time and resources, which the kharra can exploit to drop a node or two, then upgrade chambers of choice.
After that, a pack of 8 skulks, killing marine after marine on their route round the nodes, being healed by a gorge, will work wonders to control expansion.
Oh, so the marines have to throw down a 30 res structure and eventually get armor 1 (which they may already have).
I've seen this strat, it is sad... so sad. I've seen variations, where the com throws down 2 IPs... thats it, and sends all but 2 marines to the hive location. Throw down an armory, setup 2-3 packs of mines around armory, send in 1-2 suicidal marines to throw down mines all over the hive room. Phase gates, then shotguns and push into the hive.
2-3 mad sporing lerks is the only counter, but the rush costs so little res it hardly hampers marines if they lose the spawn camp, not to mention the 4-5 res nodes they got up while you were breaking it... and at least the 1 RT they destroyed. (I've even seen situations where the starting RT is taken down) Skulks stand NO CHANCE against a mine infested area covered by marines.
Grendel getting right to the root of what I've been saying for the past few posts.
Most players know where the hives are, even if they're not built. Its not realistic, but thats tough. They'll wander in, put a few rounds into the hive location, and if nothing happens then they'll roll on.
As an alien, the best you can do is get a hit in before the marines hear you. Even then, thats pretty dumb because marines will keep spawning in and targeting your hive, which is going to be a major weakpoint. It won't regenerate fast enough, you'll all be skulks/saving res, and without DCs there's very little chance of you leaving the hive alive with enough res to make another one.
Best bets going DC and trying to discourage the marines, try and sneak someone out while everyone else uses DCs to try and keep alive long enough to allow the second hive to drop.
Comments
in the middle hive there are 3 exits,the left,which goes a small hall,then a 90 degree turn,they camp around that turn so they dont worry about units in base,just units coming out
then theres the right exit,which is a looong hallway
then theres the vent,to get to the vent you can go over the door of the right exit,and avoid being seen,you choices then are leaving VIA the vent that would come up in a room right next to the looooong hallway watching skulks leaving hive,and another that puts you at the elevator close to pipeline,1 rine per vent can keep skulks from leaving via those vents
and your pretty much just stuck in the base unless you get a plan
your left hallway will be the hardest to get out of,because its a 1 way road,the right hallway has the longhallway,but a vent that comes out behind it,if 2-3 skulks come out of the long hallway,at the time 2 skulks leave the vent,kill the 1-2 rines there,then proceed around corner to hit the rines watching the hall,they will most likley be watching down the long hallway for the skulks running out of the hive and most likely you can take them
(lerks are always good)
-------------------------------
OR they are sitting in hive room and just waiting for a skulk to spawn,killing,then waiting more,thats real spawncamping and the game is already lost,they are just taking there time to cap all the nodes when they could just end it.Most servers frown apon this and admins will tell them to end it,or be kicked
if noadmins are round,just f4 and hope teams arent stacked next game
<!--QuoteBegin--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td><b>QUOTE</b> </td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteEBegin-->
How the heck does putting up sens first lead to the marines raping your hive with shotties?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
If you drop 3 sens when marines are AGGRESSIVELY HITTING YOUR HIVE, then you've made a gross tactical error. You can't hit and run if the marines are on your doorstep. They KNOW where the hive is. Cloaking it won't help. Cloaking yourself won't help much either, since the marines will run into the hive room and proceed to annihilate the hive. It won't take an awful long amount of time, and if they manage to have a phase up then it WILL be gg.
<!--QuoteEnd--> </td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'> <!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your comment doesn't address the fact that if you do a proper sens-first strat, the rines shouldn't be in your hive in the first place. What I said was that dropping scs doesn't mean gg early game. Of course scs are useless if the rines are already at your base, but that's pretty much a given anyway.
Of course scs are useless if the rines are already at your base, but that's pretty much a given anyway
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Which is what this thread is about, and also what I've said before several times.
In most pubs there simply isn't the before-game organisation to have solid strat..... and it can take rines seconds to rush a hive. If you HAVE dropped sensory, you're probably about to be toasted, and if you drop sensory knowing full well that rines are on the doorstep then you WILL be toasted.
No good, because while you won't get spawn camped, tfacs at each hive location = LOCKED OUT
And you lose.
gg no thx to sensory chambers
Honestly sometimes I think the first hive you get should spawn in two aliens at a time (on pubs anyhow), because one good marine can take down so many noob skulks.
If the rines set up a spawn camp seconds into the game I don't care what chamber you have, you've lost. Heck, if we're talking about insta-gibbing upon spawning in, no chamber really is gonna help you much. So...again I come back to my earlier comment, how exactly is the sc singled out as the chamber that will let you get spawncamped?
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><div class='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
DC offers a CHANCE. OCs can offer COVER if nothing else. IMHO MC is about as good as SC if you're spawncamped. With DCs you might survive long enough for your friend to spawn in... he might be able to kill a rine.
If you're in a hive with some DC *in* it you'll get a bit of healing... and with some OC you'll get support fire and something to use as a shield. If a gorge is away from the hive they can drop DC and make sure you KEEP your capacity to upgrade.
In most games you merely need to stay alive long enough for the marines to be discouraged and try another tactic. If some of your team are outside base then you can ambush the lockdown or try for MS and kill the comm before he relocates.
Lets not forget of course that any chamber *can* be a good first choice..... but if you've got marines on the doorstep then only DCs are going to give you some hope of pushing them back. Dropping any chamber without an idea of the enemy plan is usually a bad idea - dropping sensory/movement if the marines are rushing is suicidal. DCs give you breathing space. Its not much but its all you'll have.
So, instead of taking about 11 or so bullets, you've made it up to 14. Considering several marines on one person (you), and you holding still and being disoriented for a short time upon spawning, it's not going to make a big difference.
Actually, if you know you're in deep trouble, and you're already a gorge in decent position, dropping an OC under hive can help a fair bit. More about distraction than anything, but every bullet that hits the OC is one that will miss the skulks hopefully coming to help you (OCs have this amazing way of making marines stop paying attention). It only takes a few spikes to reduce lvl1 armor down to 2 bites, also. It will be more useful than a chamber.
Example:
One of the main tactics used in NS pre 1.0 release was waiting for a gap to open up in the marine defences, then destroying the base.
If you have 10+ marines spreading out all over the map and securing nodes, the commander will be low on resources and the base will have limited defence. Under these circumstances, 6+ skulks should be able to slip past marine lines using vents and hit the virtually empty marine base.
The whole base, even if covered by a TF, should go down in a few seconds to a handful of skulks, crippling the marines, if not winning the game outright.
Currently, marines feel free to expand because they don't feel they need to defend base particularly well. If they do, well, that costs them time and resources, which the kharra can exploit to drop a node or two, then upgrade chambers of choice.
After that, a pack of 8 skulks, killing marine after marine on their route round the nodes, being healed by a gorge, will work wonders to control expansion.
Oh, so the marines have to throw down a 30 res structure and eventually get armor 1 (which they may already have).
I've seen this strat, it is sad... so sad. I've seen variations, where the com throws down 2 IPs... thats it, and sends all but 2 marines to the hive location. Throw down an armory, setup 2-3 packs of mines around armory, send in 1-2 suicidal marines to throw down mines all over the hive room. Phase gates, then shotguns and push into the hive.
2-3 mad sporing lerks is the only counter, but the rush costs so little res it hardly hampers marines if they lose the spawn camp, not to mention the 4-5 res nodes they got up while you were breaking it... and at least the 1 RT they destroyed. (I've even seen situations where the starting RT is taken down) Skulks stand NO CHANCE against a mine infested area covered by marines.
Dropping a sensory in a hive is nearly useless. It's not like you can hide a hive.
Most players know where the hives are, even if they're not built. Its not realistic, but thats tough. They'll wander in, put a few rounds into the hive location, and if nothing happens then they'll roll on.
As an alien, the best you can do is get a hit in before the marines hear you. Even then, thats pretty dumb because marines will keep spawning in and targeting your hive, which is going to be a major weakpoint. It won't regenerate fast enough, you'll all be skulks/saving res, and without DCs there's very little chance of you leaving the hive alive with enough res to make another one.
Best bets going DC and trying to discourage the marines, try and sneak someone out while everyone else uses DCs to try and keep alive long enough to allow the second hive to drop.