Snowcow, u rock. H'BNnayr I'd like to thank you as well for.. well everything you've posted really. Neck: what the heck does your sig mean? I'm lost =P
umm, longtooth, nobody tryed to degrade atheism, the truth is that ppl, need to believe in something, because if they don´t they don´t really see the point of living, or doing good stuff, so people believes in the gods, but when a person faces a sad, or a hard moment in their lives, they tend to give up on faith, and attack the gods, that never helped them. There´s also a lot of people that couldn´t simply believe in something they haven´t ever seen or, atleast seen a miracle, or anything. Also, some others simply think that gods can´t exist, because they are something totally abstract. Im a mix of that 3 things, and most of the atheists feel like this, i found myself in the middle of a struggle, and i have choosen to stop believing in any kind of religion, this helped me a lot, and now i have a completely point of view. You don´t live in this planet to do stupid stuff, there is no eternal life, every single moment counts, and you have to give some really good use of it because humans are fragile, and they live around 60 years or so, we have such a small time to spend on this place, just being alive its a weird and abstract thing, thinking and reasoning its even more abstract, that´s why people made gods, to give a reason to life, and something to live and die for....
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?(Epicurus)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just thought I'd reply to this,
1 Cor.3:18 and 19: "Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God."
How does Epicurus know God's reasons/motives for anything?
And before someone becomes clever I know that the quote above is a piece of wisdom and therefore foolishness to God. However it is Wisdom to man and if God is following this debate I'll let the Almighty tell me what a load of rubbish that is.
(That doesn't mean that someone should register to the forums as "The Almighty" and say that I'm an idiot.)
<!--QuoteBegin--Josiah Bartlet+Oct. 28 2002,12:50--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Josiah Bartlet @ Oct. 28 2002,12:50)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->(That doesn't mean that someone should register to the forums as "The Almighty" and say that I'm an idiot.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> ...
omg religion is for sissies. your all blind! the earth was really made up of micro-hamsters, and we evolved from hamster chimps. why do you think we like small, cute furry things? HUH? HUH? dont deny it! religion is all lies
<!--QuoteBegin--Wren+Oct. 28 2002,16:17--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Wren @ Oct. 28 2002,16:17)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->omg religion is for sissies. your all blind! the earth was really made up of micro-hamsters, and we evolved from hamster chimps. why do you think we like small, cute furry things? HUH? HUH? dont deny it! religion is all lies<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I don't know if was just meant to be funny or whether there was a point there.
I'm assuming that point was that people who don't like religion for no reason are silly.
If I'm wrong then I ask that TheAlmighty slappeth you until you are sore.
And Renegade I don't understand why you said I rest my case.
<!--QuoteBegin--SuperMunchkin+Oct. 27 2002,22:52--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (SuperMunchkin @ Oct. 27 2002,22:52)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Oct. 27 2002,22:29--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Legionnaired @ Oct. 27 2002,22:29)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->You talk about contradictions within the bible. It's not an unknown concept, I've heard of them many times before, but I can never seem to locate any myself. Perhaps I am jsut not looking hard enough. Would you care to express where these contradictions take place?<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Certainly, certainly.
In this thread alone we have stated that the bible says "To love God, and God loves us." Also that the bible states to "fear god". And then some one else quoted.. ehh.. what was it now.. A perfect love throws out fear.. or something to that extent. Stating that Love abolishes fear, not promote it.
And for my favorite contradiction... Look at the first 2 chapters- Genesis 1 and 2. Read carefully. In chapter 1 it describes creation, earth sky all that then animals, then Man. In early part of Chapter two, it states that Adam was lounging around in the Garden of Eden bored, so God made animals and had Adam name them.
Did you catch it? Animals then Man. Man then Animals. You don't even have to look beyond the first two chapters. Then there's "Love thy enemy" and "Eye for an Eye". <-- check exodus, i forget exactly where.
I'm fairly confident it states somewhere that one cannot/will not be punished for the sins of another. And then we bring out the tenth plague and kill all the first born sons. Not because they were necessarily "evil", but for vengence against (Ramses wasn't it?) and his followers for ordering the same against the Jews.
I'm sure there's more I've come across that I've forgotten, but those should be enough to prove I'm not just throwing the contradiction statement around. I've heard many use it as well, and few come up with an example on the spot.
Oh and I forget exactly what I was going to say in reguards to perfection. I suppose by my way of thinking- that the world is relative and there is no true good or evil- that there is no perfection. God, Jesus or otherwise. Or you could say we are all perfect. A concept you, and most likely EVERYONE, will disagree with. I do not believe in Sin. Sin defined as going against God.
The only thing I consider to be wrong is altering anothers life in any way they do not want. And no two people want EXACTLY the same from life. So by my way of thinking- no rule can be set without exceptions. As an example: Most would rather u not kill them- but there are a few who suffer from cancer or what have you, and wish to die and be at peace. All very controversial.
Oh hey, I didn't see anyone respond to my angels thing. Anyone know about the 6 wings? Or where to find it in the Bible? I was in a Youth Group a couple years ago and was taught this- but forgot where it mentions it. Doh.
-EDIT- "Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense." -- Robert A. Heinlein
I love it. It sums up my view on right/wrong so very nicely.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ok, your first contradiction. Animals then Man, Man then animals.
I give you Genesis 2:19
19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.
Had. In the preterite. This complies with the belief that God created animals first, and had Adam name them later, as it never says again that god made new animals, in fact, it is a direct re-iteration of Genesis 1, 24-25
24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so. 25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
Ok, next contradiction. Love and fear God.
In most of the old testement, I believe the term "Fear" is used mainly as a term of respect... Exodus 18:21
21 But select capable men from all the people--men who fear God, trustworthy men who hate dishonest gain--and appoint them as officials over thousands, hundreds, fifties and tens.
Aaand, lets see, Genesis 22:12, this is Gabriel speaking.
12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."
Again, fear could be being used as respect and obey, instead of actually be afraid of. Unfortunately, I don't know ancient Hebrew, so I can't be sure.
Lets see... Eye for an Eye Versus Love thy neighbor..
This one's a peculiar one. But, Jesus says... Matthew 5:38
<span style='color:red'>38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.' 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,</span>
I'll have to talk to a minister about that one, because I'm not exactly sue about that one, but I think what JEsus says kind of overrides everything else <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo--> .
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh and I forget exactly what I was going to say in reguards to perfection. I suppose by my way of thinking- that the world is relative and there is no true good or evil- that there is no perfection. God, Jesus or otherwise. Or you could say we are all perfect. A concept you, and most likely EVERYONE, will disagree with. I do not believe in Sin. Sin defined as going against God. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, lets go with this whole "No good and evil thing." It's an interesting concept, ad not one that's entirely unknown to me. Here's what the bible has to say. MAtthew 5:21
<span style='color:red'>21 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.</span>
So according to Jesus, being angry is just as much a sin as murder is. Since most murder stems from anger, I believe he is saying that it is your reasons and your motives.. your feelings that go into your actions that matter, along with your actions... This is something I too am still searching for an answer for, and it pains me I cannot give you a good response at this time, but I assure you I will talk to some people about it.
Batt, I don't believe in anything and I still see a point to living. Josiah, you didn't awnser the quote you just gave me a long winded version of "god works in mysterious ways". Awnser the quote and don't try to protect god in some shroud of mystery without awnsering anything. Back to Batt, in time before this the main reason people became atheists was because of a tragedy in thier life or something like that, this is true. But in todays world many Americans(I chose Americans because they have a choice where as many cultures don't) just don't follow religion. There are too many reasons to name. To everyone, Believe it or not life without religion is worth living. I don't need a promise of reward or a threat of punishment to do good things on Earth, I choose to do them because I want to. God has never given me anything or done anything for me, my parents have and I have.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Josiah, you didn't awnser the quote you just gave me a long winded version of "god works in mysterious ways". Awnser the quote and don't try to protect god in some shroud of mystery without awnsering anything.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
The rules changed between the old and new testaments. One way of living was abolished, and another was formed. Whenever you have a contradiction (like the eye for eye/love thy neighbor thing) between the old and new, think of it as a differennce between religions (because it is... the eye for eye thing is more of a Jewish belief, and love thy neighbor is more along the lines of Christianity. That's part of the reason sometimes you'll see tiny bibles that are -only- the New Testament and one or two Old Testament books... because the NT applies a ton more than the old).
You still didn't awnser the quote. Just because you aren't god does not mean you can't question him, if you had to be someone to know that persons motives we would not have a justice system in this country.
When you read things in the bible like "Fear God" I think to get a true understanding of what it is saying you have to look the verse up in the Greek and see what tenses and moods it is in, that is one of the reasons why there are so many different bible translations. Also English lacks the words to discribe some of the Greek or Hebrew words sometimes, just like other languages do in the world now.
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Oct. 28 2002,16:35--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Legionnaired @ Oct. 28 2002,16:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aaand, lets see, Genesis 22:12, this is Gabriel speaking.
12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."
Again, fear could be being used as respect and obey, instead of actually be afraid of. Unfortunately, I don't know ancient Hebrew, so I can't be sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This was when God told Abraham to take him only son Isaac to the land of Moriah, up a mountain of God's choosing, and burn him alive, as a sacrifice to God. This was a test to so Abraham's obedience to God. At the last second, God sent an angel to stop the sacrifice, and Abraham sacrificed a ram instead. A nice story, but always off-putting for me. It is in the Old Testament, so it's not that big of a deal, but it makes you wonder why anyone would choose to worship a God that plays mind games like that.
Besides, I thought God was omniscient.
(Note: I mean no offense to anyone with those statements. The story was in early Genesis (Chapter 22), and has little weight compared to the teachings in the New Testament.)
You know, I've sometimes ponder the idea of learning Armamaic, a dead language, just so I can read the scriptures in their original form... (I went so far as to read about it for a while...I was not the least bit surprised to find that there was no Armamaic term for virgin. The closest relation was young, unmarried girl. But, again, to those that might get up in arms: Do Jesus of Nazareth's teachings hold any less weight if he was not born of God's seed?)
I look foward to what you have to say in reply to my blurbs, Legionnaired...
And Longtooth, I agree that the logic holds up, and would be sound for any logical argument. But the concept of God is not a logical argument. Simply because if there is a sentience with the power to create all the mass and energy we behold, we could not begin to question its motives. Perhaps it has the power to do away with evil, and wishes to do so with one wave, but is not even aware of us. Perhaps it really is trying now.
Well, we've made it to the eleventh page, and kept it civil thus far, although I fear it may be only a matter of time before it descends. Please, people, let's keep up the great work. I don't want to see this thread locked.
-Ryan!
Dear god, sorry to disturb you but... I feel that I should be heard loud and clear We all need a big reduction in amount of tears And all the people that you made in your image See them fighting in the street 'Cause they can't make opinions meet about god I can't believe in you -- XTC, "Dear God" (Highly suggested listening material.)
I can only think logically, I suppose that is why I dislike religion. So from what I have read here the Old Testament is losing favor in recent times, so I was wondering is the theory of religion stated in Genesis still believed by an d large? If so where do Neanderthals and pre-humans fit in? And just you know I was a former Christian and I have read this I just want your opinion.
<!--QuoteBegin--H'BNayr+Oct. 28 2002,19:19--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (H'BNayr @ Oct. 28 2002,19:19)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Oct. 28 2002,16:35--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Legionnaired @ Oct. 28 2002,16:35)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Aaand, lets see, Genesis 22:12, this is Gabriel speaking.
12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."
Again, fear could be being used as respect and obey, instead of actually be afraid of. Unfortunately, I don't know ancient Hebrew, so I can't be sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> This was when God told Abraham to take him only son Isaac to the land of Moriah, up a mountain of God's choosing, and burn him alive, as a sacrifice to God. This was a test to so Abraham's obedience to God. At the last second, God sent an angel to stop the sacrifice, and Abraham sacrificed a ram instead. A nice story, but always off-putting for me. It is in the Old Testament, so it's not that big of a deal, but it makes you wonder why anyone would choose to worship a God that plays mind games like that.
Besides, I thought God was omniscient.
(Note: I mean no offense to anyone with those statements. The story was in early Genesis (Chapter 22), and has little weight compared to the teachings in the New Testament.)
You know, I've sometimes ponder the idea of learning Armamaic, a dead language, just so I can read the scriptures in their original form... (I went so far as to read about it for a while...I was not the least bit surprised to find that there was no Armamaic term for virgin. The closest relation was young, unmarried girl. But, again, to those that might get up in arms: Do Jesus of Nazareth's teachings hold any less weight if he was not born of God's seed?)
I look foward to what you have to say in reply to my blurbs, Legionnaired...
And Longtooth, I agree that the logic holds up, and would be sound for any logical argument. But the concept of God is not a logical argument. Simply because if there is a sentience with the power to create all the mass and energy we behold, we could not begin to question its motives. Perhaps it has the power to do away with evil, and wishes to do so with one wave, but is not even aware of us. Perhaps it really is trying now.
Well, we've made it to the eleventh page, and kept it civil thus far, although I fear it may be only a matter of time before it descends. Please, people, let's keep up the great work. I don't want to see this thread locked.
-Ryan!
Dear god, sorry to disturb you but... I feel that I should be heard loud and clear We all need a big reduction in amount of tears And all the people that you made in your image See them fighting in the street 'Cause they can't make opinions meet about god I can't believe in you -- XTC, "Dear God" (Highly suggested listening material.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> New points as usual H'bnayr. Lets see what I can do.
First of all, lets read on <i>past</i> the part where Abraham was stopped by Gabriel.
"16 and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son, 17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies, 18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.""
Quite frankly, I really don't know why the Lord chose to play those sort of games, as you call them, with Abraham. Frankly though, I don't think it matters. Not for me anyway. He's done enough things in my life that I suppose I'm always counting for that angel at teh last second, figuratively or literally, makes no difference.
also.. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Besides, I thought God was omniscient.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, who says he isn't? So what if he diddn't extend his finger down on Abraham to stop him?
Who says Gabriel wasn't(isn't) his finger?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->And Longtooth, I agree that the logic holds up, and would be sound for any logical argument. But the concept of God is not a logical argument. Simply because if there is a sentience with the power to create all the mass and energy we behold, we could not begin to question its motives. Perhaps it has the power to do away with evil, and wishes to do so with one wave, but is not even aware of us. Perhaps it really is trying now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting, as usual, but I can't help chuckling to myself about the irony about the situation. First you say that You believe in God ( maybe not directly, but you definately imply he exists), and then question his motives, and then say how we cannot possibly do so?
Oh what a tangled web we weave.
BTW, how's my sig? <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
Might I add to what Legionairred has already said.
God knew that Abraham would be obedient, but did Abraham? Abraham is learning obedience by being obedient(make sense? heh), and doing what God has told him to do. Since he was submissive to God's will, he is rewarded in verses 16-18.
I consider the fact of God's existence to be completely logical. For example, where did all the matter before the "Big Bang" come from? Matter can't be created (Second Law of Thermodynamics), so it must have been created by someone (or thing) at one point. Not to mention my views on the theory of evolution.
As Pascal put it- (a summary) if you are trying to decide whether or not to bet on God's existence, bet on God. For if you don't bet on Him, and He really exists- you lose everything (hell). If you don't bet on Him, and He doesn't exist- you lose nothing. However, if you believe in Him, and he exists you gain everything (eternal life in heaven etc...). If you believe in Him and you're wrong, you lose nothing. So, in choosing not to believe in God, you have everything to lose and nothing to gain. In believing in God, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose.
Sorry to butt in on your conversation, but I hope I've contributed something to think about.
You say what created the matter involved in the big bang? I say who created god? And I will not be threatend by a being that dosent exist into submission. That old "What if you are wrong?" and "Why not" argument dosen't work here, Pascal will need to come up with something better.
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Oct. 28 2002,22:02--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Legionnaired @ Oct. 28 2002,22:02)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->also.. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Besides, I thought God was omniscient.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, who says he isn't? So what if he diddn't extend his finger down on Abraham to stop him?
Who says Gabriel wasn't(isn't) his finger?
Interesting, as usual, but I can't help chuckling to myself about the irony about the situation. First you say that You believe in God ( maybe not directly, but you definately imply he exists), and then question his motives, and then say how we cannot possibly do so?
Oh what a tangled web we weave.
BTW, how's my sig? <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Well, if He were omniscient, he would have known that Abraham would obey him. What was the point of the test? Show Abraham how much dedication he had? An opportunity to wedge in that little blessing in a way that would make it remembered? Awfully round-about way to go about it.
I see no irony in my situation here, though. I believe there was a Creator, but I question his relevance to us. If he can create all that we are, then why should he care about us? I only imagine that if the Creator had sentience we could relate to, we would not be able to comprehend the thoughts behind it, simply because of the sheer magnitude. That doesn't, however, stop me from trying to imagine the thoughts there.
Call me neutral. I can see much of one side, and much of the other. I'm just waiting for a little more evidence on either side.
Thanks for the reply. I especially liked your, <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Frankly though, I don't think it matters. Not for me anyway. He's done enough things in my life that I suppose I'm always counting for that angel at teh last second, figuratively or literally, makes no difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I'm interested in what you thought about some of my previous posts, too, Legion. This thread is getting wordy, though...
Oh, and I always liked your B*b Forever sig. Heh.
And Longtooth, as far as I know, most Christians have no problem with an Earth that's 4 billion years old and a universe 6 billion years old, or with evolutionary theory. I must note, though, the word <i>most</i>. I have encountered a few people clinging to the notion of an Earth only 6,000 years old. But not too many.
And Mike/Dinger, as long as you have something meaningful to add, you are most welcome to butt in. And you did raise a good point with Abraham. And the logic of Pascal's argument holds up, but then I'd be one of those people who are Christians "just in case." If I believe in him, it's because I truly know He's there. If He really cares, then I'm sure He would understand.
-Ryan!
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." -- Nietzsche
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->so I was wondering is the theory of religion stated in Genesis still believed by an d large? If so where do Neanderthals and pre-humans fit in? <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm certainly not going to take sides in this argument, but just an intersting little note: junior year of college, I took a molecular biology course taught by a man who had worked with Watson and Crick in their lab for a period, aiding in the elucidation of the dna structure. He was also a Jesuit priest.
Not quite sure how he reconciled the two disciplines, but I'd assume that he, like a large number of people, are beginning to take things metaphorically.
Ok Legion, I wanted to quote you on your lengthy post back there, but I really don't feel like sifting through all of it and deleting most of what I don't want =P
Anyway, I believe that IF anything has the right to Judge man, it is by his intentions he should be judged. When I was still in the youth group a couple years back we did a short skit. Generally, some rich snob comes in and makes a show of donating lots of money, being very flashy and then leaving- saying while he could not attend church he would like to donate this 100 dollars. "I am rich, it is nothing to me."
While all eyes were on the rich man, a beggar in a raggy shirt comes in and drops in two quarters. Then removes his raggy shirt, his only and very little protection from the elements, and places it over the donation box. Then leaves, without a word.
The moral? I'm pretty sure it was that God judges by intention. The rich man donated heeps of money (well only a hundred bucks, but.. yeah..) and clearly stated that it meant nothing to him because he had a lot more. The beggar gave EVERYTHING he had, though it was not much compared to everyone else in the room.
And, reguardless of what the Bible says- or what anyone has ever told me- I believe a man can only be fairly judged by his intentions. Wether it be God or a fellow man. Which is why I absolutely hate the quote "Good intentions are pathway to hell." (ha! Beat you H'Bnayr)
Ahh crap, there was something else, but I forgot. Oh, Right! Old Testament vs. New As Molecular stated- they are basically 2 different beleifs/religions; and he is not the first person I have heard suggest this. In fact, a certain Pastors wife said much the same. But they are both circling the same God. If they both came from the same source- perhaps it is time again to have a redefinition of the rules? Man seems to be quite confused at the moment.
I don't know, it is just something I have thought about. I personally believe God talks to each and every one of us every single day. It's just that we have to remember how to listen.
And when I use the term "God" it does not reflect the view of God that most religions take. That he is an omnipotent, judging RTS commander thing. But rather, a parent to his children- who deerly wants them to be happy and enjoy life. But he truly doesn't give a wit how they accomplish that. She loves them unconditionally- as they are apart of Her. And if everyone in the world realized that there are in fact apart of God, and everyone else living- perhaps they would not be so quick to harm them.
/me sighs I think I leaped off on a tangent.. Sorry.
<!--QuoteBegin--SuperMunchkin+Oct. 29 2002,11:48--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (SuperMunchkin @ Oct. 29 2002,11:48)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Ok Legion, I wanted to quote you on your lengthy post back there, but I really don't feel like sifting through all of it and deleting most of what I don't want =P
Anyway, I believe that IF anything has the right to Judge man, it is by his intentions he should be judged. When I was still in the youth group a couple years back we did a short skit. Generally, some rich snob comes in and makes a show of donating lots of money, being very flashy and then leaving- saying while he could not attend church he would like to donate this 100 dollars. "I am rich, it is nothing to me."
While all eyes were on the rich man, a beggar in a raggy shirt comes in and drops in two quarters. Then removes his raggy shirt, his only and very little protection from the elements, and places it over the donation box. Then leaves, without a word.
The moral? I'm pretty sure it was that God judges by intention. The rich man donated heeps of money (well only a hundred bucks, but.. yeah..) and clearly stated that it meant nothing to him because he had a lot more. The beggar gave EVERYTHING he had, though it was not much compared to everyone else in the room.
And, reguardless of what the Bible says- or what anyone has ever told me- I believe a man can only be fairly judged by his intentions. Wether it be God or a fellow man. Which is why I absolutely hate the quote "Good intentions are pathway to hell." (ha! Beat you H'Bnayr)
Ahh crap, there was something else, but I forgot. Oh, Right! Old Testament vs. New As Molecular stated- they are basically 2 different beleifs/religions; and he is not the first person I have heard suggest this. In fact, a certain Pastors wife said much the same. But they are both circling the same God. If they both came from the same source- perhaps it is time again to have a redefinition of the rules? Man seems to be quite confused at the moment.
I don't know, it is just something I have thought about. I personally believe God talks to each and every one of us every single day. It's just that we have to remember how to listen.
And when I use the term "God" it does not reflect the view of God that most religions take. That he is an omnipotent, judging RTS commander thing. But rather, a parent to his children- who deerly wants them to be happy and enjoy life. But he truly doesn't give a wit how they accomplish that. She loves them unconditionally- as they are apart of Her. And if everyone in the world realized that there are in fact apart of God, and everyone else living- perhaps they would not be so quick to harm them.
/me sighs I think I leaped off on a tangent.. Sorry.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Yup, that's biblical.
Mark, 12:38-44
38 As he taught, Jesus said, "Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted in the marketplaces, 39 and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. 40 They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely." 41 Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. 42 But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a fraction of a penny. 43 Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. 44 They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything--all she had to live on."
Well guys, it has been an extreme pleasure and mind-expanding experience taking part in this discussion. However, I believe that Munchkin, H'bnayr, and I have reached an impass, where we have reached a point that beyond flaming and more pointless arguing, nothing can be done to change the other person's views.
There's already a wealth of philisophical knowledge in this thread, and I think that, unless nukem comes along here again, sprouting atheistic doctrine, I'm just going to let it go.
Again, thanks for the discussions. God bless you all.
eh, I didn't read all the topic because A: Not enuf time. B: Most everything past page 3 that I saw was a repeat, and I can't stand reading the same stuff over and over.
Anyway, I am a christian, and I do play comp games (FPS, RTS, and RPG mostly), I think as long as you dont let it act on your life or do it just to see the deaths, it's all good. (But then again, if you are doing it for that, your probably going to jail soon.)
Ah, Legion =P I was never trying to convert anybody, nor did I think you were. Just giving people things to think about.
But yes, I agree.. we have come to a point where there is little more to be said; at least amongst us three. On some things we agree, on others we perhaps do not. I have enjoyed this discussion very much, and would like to thank everyone for their contributions and for keeping it civil. Religion is a VERY easy topic to get heated about.. as if I needed to tell everyone that.
Thank you Legion. Thank you H'bnayr. May you always choose happiness.
Something for you to think about, and I'd like to hear your thoughts-
I don't think mankind will ever fully understand light. Why? Because God <i>is</i> light, and since man(kind) can't understand God, we won't understand light.
Just some of my personal reasoning. Nothing overly groundbreaking. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
Mike
P.S. I'm one of those whackos that clings to the 6000 year old earth.
I just want to comment a little on the discussion on Abraham. Why would god test Abraham, espeacially if he already knows the outcome? Why does he test any of us? This mortal probation is certainly a test. Our outcome is heaven or hell. God already knows what choices we will make, so why take the time to let everyone live or even give us the chance to make choices? If the world was free of freedom of choice and everyone was forced to do right, it would be a much nicer place. According to christianity the whole reason for our mortal life is to prove to ourselves our worth, not to god. Our life is a learning experience for us, and the more we learn the better we become or the better chance we have at succeeding. Taking this back to Abraham and his son, I'm going to side with Legionared and say that God played this little game as a serious test. But, I'll also say I know why God played the game. Abraham, is a very important prophet in the bible. From his loins sprang the nation of Israel, the chosen people. From his lineage also came Jesus the Savior of our world. A fathering of a nation so profound was a great blessing and responsibility. Abraham would be responsible for his children's spirituality and their children and so on. Not only did Abraham need to be actually tested somehow, Abraham also needed to understand why this blessing was being given him and he also needed to understand the immense responsibility being given to him. This test was the available means the lord had of helping Abraham understand and prepare for what was to come. hopefully this has been a little helpful.
Edit- issue of 6000 year old earth... the bible could be correct. No where does it say God didn't use existing materials to create the earth.
Longtooth, i never sayed that there is no reason to live for. Actually, that´s your mission, to find out who you really are, and why you are here, find the thing that you would like to do, the people you shall love, and many, many more........
If I may, I would like to go off topic for a bit and post my own views.
Keep in mind, however, that I am only 16 and was raised Ieskrandic, so my views may not be very educated or foolproof.
I dislike the term relegion. The way it is used today is a bastardization of how I thought it was supposed to be used. Today, I see it being used to describe any institution that mandates certain rules of behavior and thought.
I always thought that it is better to say that one is spiritual than religious. That way its harder to offend people or draw unwanted convertion attempts.
I think that the reason humans should try to be understanding and compassionent to our fellow humans is to ease the suffering of our fellow human. Regardless of how anyone is raised up in modern nations today, I feel sorrow and mercy when I see people who are suffering. I cannot say this about everyone, but I know many people who "feel bad" when hurtful things happen to others.
I try to be helpful and tolerant not because I'll be rewarded with paradise, but because I'll be rewarded with a good feeling in my heart that I took some time out of my life to make someone elses life easier to bear. It eases my own feelings of worthlessness and sorrow to see others made happier through my own efforts. If this sounds self-righteous and pompous, please forgive me. I really cant think of another way to say this without sounding snobby <!--emo&:(--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('><!--endemo-->
But this is my Spiritual belief. I believe that we are here to ease each other's suffering. I belive that we are here to be tolerant and show mercy to others, if only for the selfish need to feel good about ourselves.
Thank you for listening to my Ignorant babbling <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
Comments
H'BNnayr I'd like to thank you as well for.. well everything you've posted really.
Neck: what the heck does your sig mean? I'm lost =P
Im a mix of that 3 things, and most of the atheists feel like this, i found myself in the middle of a struggle, and i have choosen to stop believing in any kind of religion, this helped me a lot, and now i have a completely point of view. You don´t live in this planet to do stupid stuff, there is no eternal life, every single moment counts, and you have to give some really good use of it because humans are fragile, and they live around 60 years or so, we have such a small time to spend on this place, just being alive its a weird and abstract thing, thinking and reasoning its even more abstract, that´s why people made gods, to give a reason to life, and something to live and die for....
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?(Epicurus)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I just thought I'd reply to this,
1 Cor.3:18 and 19: "Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God."
How does Epicurus know God's reasons/motives for anything?
And before someone becomes clever I know that the quote above is a piece of wisdom and therefore foolishness to God. However it is Wisdom to man and if God is following this debate I'll let the Almighty tell me what a load of rubbish that is.
(That doesn't mean that someone should register to the forums as "The Almighty" and say that I'm an idiot.)
...
<i>Drats!</i>
/\
/\
I rest my case.
I don't know if was just meant to be funny or whether there was a point there.
I'm assuming that point was that people who don't like religion for no reason are silly.
If I'm wrong then I ask that TheAlmighty slappeth you until you are sore.
And Renegade I don't understand why you said I rest my case.
Certainly, certainly.
In this thread alone we have stated that the bible says "To love God, and God loves us." Also that the bible states to "fear god". And then some one else quoted.. ehh.. what was it now..
A perfect love throws out fear.. or something to that extent. Stating that Love abolishes fear, not promote it.
And for my favorite contradiction... Look at the first 2 chapters- Genesis 1 and 2. Read carefully. In chapter 1 it describes creation, earth sky all that then animals, then Man. In early part of Chapter two, it states that Adam was lounging around in the Garden of Eden bored, so God made animals and had Adam name them.
Did you catch it? Animals then Man. Man then Animals. You don't even have to look beyond the first two chapters. Then there's "Love thy enemy" and "Eye for an Eye". <-- check exodus, i forget exactly where.
I'm fairly confident it states somewhere that one cannot/will not be punished for the sins of another. And then we bring out the tenth plague and kill all the first born sons. Not because they were necessarily "evil", but for vengence against (Ramses wasn't it?) and his followers for ordering the same against the Jews.
I'm sure there's more I've come across that I've forgotten, but those should be enough to prove I'm not just throwing the contradiction statement around. I've heard many use it as well, and few come up with an example on the spot.
Oh and I forget exactly what I was going to say in reguards to perfection. I suppose by my way of thinking- that the world is relative and there is no true good or evil- that there is no perfection. God, Jesus or otherwise. Or you could say we are all perfect. A concept you, and most likely EVERYONE, will disagree with. I do not believe in Sin. Sin defined as going against God.
The only thing I consider to be wrong is altering anothers life in any way they do not want. And no two people want EXACTLY the same from life. So by my way of thinking- no rule can be set without exceptions. As an example: Most would rather u not kill them- but there are a few who suffer from cancer or what have you, and wish to die and be at peace. All very controversial.
Oh hey, I didn't see anyone respond to my angels thing. Anyone know about the 6 wings? Or where to find it in the Bible? I was in a Youth Group a couple years ago and was taught this- but forgot where it mentions it. Doh.
-EDIT-
"Sin lies only in hurting other people unnecessarily. All other "sins" are invented nonsense."
-- Robert A. Heinlein
I love it. It sums up my view on right/wrong so very nicely.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, your first contradiction. Animals then Man, Man then animals.
I give you Genesis 2:19
19 Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name.
Had. In the preterite. This complies with the belief that God created animals first, and had Adam name them later, as it never says again that god made new animals, in fact, it is a direct re-iteration of Genesis 1, 24-25
24 And God said, "Let the land produce living creatures according to their kinds: livestock, creatures that move along the ground, and wild animals, each according to its kind." And it was so.
25 God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.
Ok, next contradiction.
Love and fear God.
In most of the old testement, I believe the term "Fear" is used mainly as a term of respect... Exodus 18:21
21 But select capable men from all the people--men who fear God, trustworthy men who hate dishonest gain--and appoint them as officials over thousands, hundreds, fifties and tens.
Aaand, lets see, Genesis 22:12, this is Gabriel speaking.
12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."
Again, fear could be being used as respect and obey, instead of actually be afraid of. Unfortunately, I don't know ancient Hebrew, so I can't be sure.
Lets see... Eye for an Eye Versus Love thy neighbor..
This one's a peculiar one. But, Jesus says... Matthew 5:38
<span style='color:red'>38 "You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'
39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well.
41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,</span>
I'll have to talk to a minister about that one, because I'm not exactly sue about that one, but I think what JEsus says kind of overrides everything else <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo--> .
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin--> Oh and I forget exactly what I was going to say in reguards to perfection. I suppose by my way of thinking- that the world is relative and there is no true good or evil- that there is no perfection. God, Jesus or otherwise. Or you could say we are all perfect. A concept you, and most likely EVERYONE, will disagree with. I do not believe in Sin. Sin defined as going against God. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ok, lets go with this whole "No good and evil thing." It's an interesting concept, ad not one that's entirely unknown to me. Here's what the bible has to say. MAtthew 5:21
<span style='color:red'>21 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.'
22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.</span>
So according to Jesus, being angry is just as much a sin as murder is. Since most murder stems from anger, I believe he is saying that it is your reasons and your motives.. your feelings that go into your actions that matter, along with your actions... This is something I too am still searching for an answer for, and it pains me I cannot give you a good response at this time, but I assure you I will talk to some people about it.
Josiah, you didn't awnser the quote you just gave me a long winded version of "god works in mysterious ways". Awnser the quote and don't try to protect god in some shroud of mystery without awnsering anything.
Back to Batt, in time before this the main reason people became atheists was because of a tragedy in thier life or something like that, this is true. But in todays world many Americans(I chose Americans because they have a choice where as many cultures don't) just don't follow religion. There are too many reasons to name.
To everyone, Believe it or not life without religion is worth living. I don't need a promise of reward or a threat of punishment to do good things on Earth, I choose to do them because I want to. God has never given me anything or done anything for me, my parents have and I have.
It did answer the quote.
How does Epicurus know what God's motives are?
He can't because he is not God.
dun..DUN..DUN
The rules changed between the old and new testaments. One way of living was abolished, and another was formed. Whenever you have a contradiction (like the eye for eye/love thy neighbor thing) between the old and new, think of it as a differennce between religions (because it is... the eye for eye thing is more of a Jewish belief, and love thy neighbor is more along the lines of Christianity. That's part of the reason sometimes you'll see tiny bibles that are -only- the New Testament and one or two Old Testament books... because the NT applies a ton more than the old).
And also... Please guys, keep this thread civil.
12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."
Again, fear could be being used as respect and obey, instead of actually be afraid of. Unfortunately, I don't know ancient Hebrew, so I can't be sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was when God told Abraham to take him only son Isaac to the land of Moriah, up a mountain of God's choosing, and burn him alive, as a sacrifice to God. This was a test to so Abraham's obedience to God. At the last second, God sent an angel to stop the sacrifice, and Abraham sacrificed a ram instead. A nice story, but always off-putting for me. It is in the Old Testament, so it's not that big of a deal, but it makes you wonder why anyone would choose to worship a God that plays mind games like that.
Besides, I thought God was omniscient.
(Note: I mean no offense to anyone with those statements. The story was in early Genesis (Chapter 22), and has little weight compared to the teachings in the New Testament.)
You know, I've sometimes ponder the idea of learning Armamaic, a dead language, just so I can read the scriptures in their original form...
(I went so far as to read about it for a while...I was not the least bit surprised to find that there was no Armamaic term for virgin. The closest relation was young, unmarried girl. But, again, to those that might get up in arms: Do Jesus of Nazareth's teachings hold any less weight if he was not born of God's seed?)
I look foward to what you have to say in reply to my blurbs, Legionnaired...
And Longtooth, I agree that the logic holds up, and would be sound for any logical argument. But the concept of God is not a logical argument. Simply because if there is a sentience with the power to create all the mass and energy we behold, we could not begin to question its motives. Perhaps it has the power to do away with evil, and wishes to do so with one wave, but is not even aware of us. Perhaps it really is trying now.
Well, we've made it to the eleventh page, and kept it civil thus far, although I fear it may be only a matter of time before it descends. Please, people, let's keep up the great work. I don't want to see this thread locked.
-Ryan!
Dear god, sorry to disturb you but...
I feel that I should be heard loud and clear
We all need a big reduction in amount of tears
And all the people that you made in your image
See them fighting in the street
'Cause they can't make opinions meet about god
I can't believe in you
-- XTC, "Dear God"
(Highly suggested listening material.)
12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son."
Again, fear could be being used as respect and obey, instead of actually be afraid of. Unfortunately, I don't know ancient Hebrew, so I can't be sure.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
This was when God told Abraham to take him only son Isaac to the land of Moriah, up a mountain of God's choosing, and burn him alive, as a sacrifice to God. This was a test to so Abraham's obedience to God. At the last second, God sent an angel to stop the sacrifice, and Abraham sacrificed a ram instead. A nice story, but always off-putting for me. It is in the Old Testament, so it's not that big of a deal, but it makes you wonder why anyone would choose to worship a God that plays mind games like that.
Besides, I thought God was omniscient.
(Note: I mean no offense to anyone with those statements. The story was in early Genesis (Chapter 22), and has little weight compared to the teachings in the New Testament.)
You know, I've sometimes ponder the idea of learning Armamaic, a dead language, just so I can read the scriptures in their original form...
(I went so far as to read about it for a while...I was not the least bit surprised to find that there was no Armamaic term for virgin. The closest relation was young, unmarried girl. But, again, to those that might get up in arms: Do Jesus of Nazareth's teachings hold any less weight if he was not born of God's seed?)
I look foward to what you have to say in reply to my blurbs, Legionnaired...
And Longtooth, I agree that the logic holds up, and would be sound for any logical argument. But the concept of God is not a logical argument. Simply because if there is a sentience with the power to create all the mass and energy we behold, we could not begin to question its motives. Perhaps it has the power to do away with evil, and wishes to do so with one wave, but is not even aware of us. Perhaps it really is trying now.
Well, we've made it to the eleventh page, and kept it civil thus far, although I fear it may be only a matter of time before it descends. Please, people, let's keep up the great work. I don't want to see this thread locked.
-Ryan!
Dear god, sorry to disturb you but...
I feel that I should be heard loud and clear
We all need a big reduction in amount of tears
And all the people that you made in your image
See them fighting in the street
'Cause they can't make opinions meet about god
I can't believe in you
-- XTC, "Dear God"
(Highly suggested listening material.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
New points as usual H'bnayr. Lets see what I can do.
First of all, lets read on <i>past</i> the part where Abraham was stopped by Gabriel.
"16 and said, "I swear by myself, declares the LORD, that because you have done this and have not withheld your son, your only son,
17 I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies,
18 and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because you have obeyed me.""
Quite frankly, I really don't know why the Lord chose to play those sort of games, as you call them, with Abraham. Frankly though, I don't think it matters. Not for me anyway. He's done enough things in my life that I suppose I'm always counting for that angel at teh last second, figuratively or literally, makes no difference.
also.. <!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Besides, I thought God was omniscient.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, who says he isn't? So what if he diddn't extend his finger down on Abraham to stop him?
Who says Gabriel wasn't(isn't) his finger?
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->And Longtooth, I agree that the logic holds up, and would be sound for any logical argument. But the concept of God is not a logical argument. Simply because if there is a sentience with the power to create all the mass and energy we behold, we could not begin to question its motives. Perhaps it has the power to do away with evil, and wishes to do so with one wave, but is not even aware of us. Perhaps it really is trying now.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Interesting, as usual, but I can't help chuckling to myself about the irony about the situation. First you say that You believe in God ( maybe not directly, but you definately imply he exists), and then question his motives, and then say how we cannot possibly do so?
Oh what a tangled web we weave.
BTW, how's my sig? <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
God knew that Abraham would be obedient, but did Abraham? Abraham is learning obedience by being obedient(make sense? heh), and doing what God has told him to do. Since he was submissive to God's will, he is rewarded in verses 16-18.
I consider the fact of God's existence to be completely logical. For example, where did all the matter before the "Big Bang" come from? Matter can't be created (Second Law of Thermodynamics), so it must have been created by someone (or thing) at one point. Not to mention my views on the theory of evolution.
As Pascal put it- (a summary) if you are trying to decide whether or not to bet on God's existence, bet on God. For if you don't bet on Him, and He really exists- you lose everything (hell). If you don't bet on Him, and He doesn't exist- you lose nothing. However, if you believe in Him, and he exists you gain everything (eternal life in heaven etc...). If you believe in Him and you're wrong, you lose nothing. So, in choosing not to believe in God, you have everything to lose and nothing to gain. In believing in God, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose.
Sorry to butt in on your conversation, but I hope I've contributed something to think about.
Mike
Well, who says he isn't? So what if he diddn't extend his finger down on Abraham to stop him?
Who says Gabriel wasn't(isn't) his finger?
Interesting, as usual, but I can't help chuckling to myself about the irony about the situation. First you say that You believe in God ( maybe not directly, but you definately imply he exists), and then question his motives, and then say how we cannot possibly do so?
Oh what a tangled web we weave.
BTW, how's my sig? <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo--><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Well, if He were omniscient, he would have known that Abraham would obey him. What was the point of the test? Show Abraham how much dedication he had? An opportunity to wedge in that little blessing in a way that would make it remembered? Awfully round-about way to go about it.
I see no irony in my situation here, though. I believe there was a Creator, but I question his relevance to us. If he can create all that we are, then why should he care about us? I only imagine that if the Creator had sentience we could relate to, we would not be able to comprehend the thoughts behind it, simply because of the sheer magnitude. That doesn't, however, stop me from trying to imagine the thoughts there.
Call me neutral. I can see much of one side, and much of the other. I'm just waiting for a little more evidence on either side.
Thanks for the reply. I especially liked your,
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Frankly though, I don't think it matters. Not for me anyway. He's done enough things in my life that I suppose I'm always counting for that angel at teh last second, figuratively or literally, makes no difference.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I'm interested in what you thought about some of my previous posts, too, Legion. This thread is getting wordy, though...
Oh, and I always liked your B*b Forever sig. Heh.
And Longtooth, as far as I know, most Christians have no problem with an Earth that's 4 billion years old and a universe 6 billion years old, or with evolutionary theory. I must note, though, the word <i>most</i>. I have encountered a few people clinging to the notion of an Earth only 6,000 years old. But not too many.
And Mike/Dinger, as long as you have something meaningful to add, you are most welcome to butt in. And you did raise a good point with Abraham. And the logic of Pascal's argument holds up, but then I'd be one of those people who are Christians "just in case." If I believe in him, it's because I truly know He's there. If He really cares, then I'm sure He would understand.
-Ryan!
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
-- Nietzsche
I'm certainly not going to take sides in this argument, but just an intersting little note: junior year of college, I took a molecular biology course taught by a man who had worked with Watson and Crick in their lab for a period, aiding in the elucidation of the dna structure. He was also a Jesuit priest.
Not quite sure how he reconciled the two disciplines, but I'd assume that he, like a large number of people, are beginning to take things metaphorically.
OK. Carry on.
Anyway, I believe that IF anything has the right to Judge man, it is by his intentions he should be judged. When I was still in the youth group a couple years back we did a short skit. Generally, some rich snob comes in and makes a show of donating lots of money, being very flashy and then leaving- saying while he could not attend church he would like to donate this 100 dollars. "I am rich, it is nothing to me."
While all eyes were on the rich man, a beggar in a raggy shirt comes in and drops in two quarters. Then removes his raggy shirt, his only and very little protection from the elements, and places it over the donation box. Then leaves, without a word.
The moral? I'm pretty sure it was that God judges by intention. The rich man donated heeps of money (well only a hundred bucks, but.. yeah..) and clearly stated that it meant nothing to him because he had a lot more. The beggar gave EVERYTHING he had, though it was not much compared to everyone else in the room.
And, reguardless of what the Bible says- or what anyone has ever told me- I believe a man can only be fairly judged by his intentions. Wether it be God or a fellow man. Which is why I absolutely hate the quote "Good intentions are pathway to hell." (ha! Beat you H'Bnayr)
Ahh crap, there was something else, but I forgot. Oh, Right! Old Testament vs. New
As Molecular stated- they are basically 2 different beleifs/religions; and he is not the first person I have heard suggest this. In fact, a certain Pastors wife said much the same. But they are both circling the same God. If they both came from the same source- perhaps it is time again to have a redefinition of the rules? Man seems to be quite confused at the moment.
I don't know, it is just something I have thought about. I personally believe God talks to each and every one of us every single day. It's just that we have to remember how to listen.
And when I use the term "God" it does not reflect the view of God that most religions take. That he is an omnipotent, judging RTS commander thing. But rather, a parent to his children- who deerly wants them to be happy and enjoy life. But he truly doesn't give a wit how they accomplish that. She loves them unconditionally- as they are apart of Her. And if everyone in the world realized that there are in fact apart of God, and everyone else living- perhaps they would not be so quick to harm them.
/me sighs
I think I leaped off on a tangent.. Sorry.
Anyway, I believe that IF anything has the right to Judge man, it is by his intentions he should be judged. When I was still in the youth group a couple years back we did a short skit. Generally, some rich snob comes in and makes a show of donating lots of money, being very flashy and then leaving- saying while he could not attend church he would like to donate this 100 dollars. "I am rich, it is nothing to me."
While all eyes were on the rich man, a beggar in a raggy shirt comes in and drops in two quarters. Then removes his raggy shirt, his only and very little protection from the elements, and places it over the donation box. Then leaves, without a word.
The moral? I'm pretty sure it was that God judges by intention. The rich man donated heeps of money (well only a hundred bucks, but.. yeah..) and clearly stated that it meant nothing to him because he had a lot more. The beggar gave EVERYTHING he had, though it was not much compared to everyone else in the room.
And, reguardless of what the Bible says- or what anyone has ever told me- I believe a man can only be fairly judged by his intentions. Wether it be God or a fellow man. Which is why I absolutely hate the quote "Good intentions are pathway to hell." (ha! Beat you H'Bnayr)
Ahh crap, there was something else, but I forgot. Oh, Right! Old Testament vs. New
As Molecular stated- they are basically 2 different beleifs/religions; and he is not the first person I have heard suggest this. In fact, a certain Pastors wife said much the same. But they are both circling the same God. If they both came from the same source- perhaps it is time again to have a redefinition of the rules? Man seems to be quite confused at the moment.
I don't know, it is just something I have thought about. I personally believe God talks to each and every one of us every single day. It's just that we have to remember how to listen.
And when I use the term "God" it does not reflect the view of God that most religions take. That he is an omnipotent, judging RTS commander thing. But rather, a parent to his children- who deerly wants them to be happy and enjoy life. But he truly doesn't give a wit how they accomplish that. She loves them unconditionally- as they are apart of Her. And if everyone in the world realized that there are in fact apart of God, and everyone else living- perhaps they would not be so quick to harm them.
/me sighs
I think I leaped off on a tangent.. Sorry.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yup, that's biblical.
Mark, 12:38-44
38 As he taught, Jesus said, "Watch out for the teachers of the law. They like to walk around in flowing robes and be greeted in the marketplaces,
39 and have the most important seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets.
40 They devour widows' houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. Such men will be punished most severely."
41 Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts.
42 But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a fraction of a penny.
43 Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, "I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others.
44 They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything--all she had to live on."
Well guys, it has been an extreme pleasure and mind-expanding experience taking part in this discussion. However, I believe that Munchkin, H'bnayr, and I have reached an impass, where we have reached a point that beyond flaming and more pointless arguing, nothing can be done to change the other person's views.
There's already a wealth of philisophical knowledge in this thread, and I think that, unless nukem comes along here again, sprouting atheistic doctrine, I'm just going to let it go.
Again, thanks for the discussions. God bless you all.
A: Not enuf time.
B: Most everything past page 3 that I saw was a repeat, and I can't stand reading the same stuff over and over.
Anyway, I am a christian, and I do play comp games (FPS, RTS, and RPG mostly), I think as long as you dont let it act on your life or do it just to see the deaths, it's all good. (But then again, if you are doing it for that, your probably going to jail soon.)
But yes, I agree.. we have come to a point where there is little more to be said; at least amongst us three. On some things we agree, on others we perhaps do not. I have enjoyed this discussion very much, and would like to thank everyone for their contributions and for keeping it civil. Religion is a VERY easy topic to get heated about.. as if I needed to tell everyone that.
Thank you Legion. Thank you H'bnayr.
May you always choose happiness.
Something for you to think about, and I'd like to hear your thoughts-
I don't think mankind will ever fully understand light. Why? Because God <i>is</i> light, and since man(kind) can't understand God, we won't understand light.
Just some of my personal reasoning. Nothing overly groundbreaking. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
Mike
P.S. I'm one of those whackos that clings to the 6000 year old earth.
Edit- issue of 6000 year old earth... the bible could be correct. No where does it say God didn't use existing materials to create the earth.
Keep in mind, however, that I am only 16 and was raised Ieskrandic, so my views may not be very educated or foolproof.
I dislike the term relegion. The way it is used today is a bastardization of how I thought it was supposed to be used. Today, I see it being used to describe any institution that mandates certain rules of behavior and thought.
I always thought that it is better to say that one is spiritual than religious. That way its harder to offend people or draw unwanted convertion attempts.
I think that the reason humans should try to be understanding and compassionent to our fellow humans is to ease the suffering of our fellow human. Regardless of how anyone is raised up in modern nations today, I feel sorrow and mercy when I see people who are suffering. I cannot say this about everyone, but I know many people who "feel bad" when hurtful things happen to others.
I try to be helpful and tolerant not because I'll be rewarded with paradise, but because I'll be rewarded with a good feeling in my heart that I took some time out of my life to make someone elses life easier to bear. It eases my own feelings of worthlessness and sorrow to see others made happier through my own efforts. If this sounds self-righteous and pompous, please forgive me. I really cant think of another way to say this without sounding snobby <!--emo&:(--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('><!--endemo-->
But this is my Spiritual belief. I believe that we are here to ease each other's suffering. I belive that we are here to be tolerant and show mercy to others, if only for the selfish need to feel good about ourselves.
Thank you for listening to my Ignorant babbling <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->