<b>****WARNING THIS IS NOT A FLAME****</b> I am an atheist. I live to live and help other people to help other people. Not because I think there is a reward or punishment at the end of the tunnel. I do what I want when I want because I want to. I deciede for me what is right and what is wrong. I was not born evil. I was born human.
<!--QuoteBegin--Nemesis Zero+Oct. 25 2002,07:18--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Nemesis Zero @ Oct. 25 2002,07:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Think about this: If Christians really shouldn't consume violent media, they wouldn't be allowed to read the Bible.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> As being agnostic (God might not notice us at all, but there IS a beginning with the Big Bang...had to start somewhere), I don't have much to add to the conversation. But I do have an interesting quote supporting this thought. To balance it out, I will also quote the New Testament. Bear with me.
In Joshua and in the second half of Numbers is celebrated the mass murder of men, women, children, down to domestic animals in city after city across the whole land of Canaan. Jericho is obliterated in a kherem, a "holy war." The only justification offered for this slaughter is the mass murderers' claim that, in exchange for circumcising their sons and adopting a particular set of ritualsm their ancestors were long before promised that this land was their land. Not a hint of self-reproach, not a muttering of patriarchal or divine disquiet at these campaigns of extermination can be dug out of holy scripture. Instead, Joshua "destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded" (Joshua 10:40). And these events are not incidental, but central to the main narrative thrust of the Old Testament. Similar stories of mass murder (and in the case of the Amalekites, genocide) can be found in the books of Saul, Esther, and elsewhere in the Bible, with hardly a pang of moral doubt. It was all, of course, troubling to liberal theologians of a later age.
It is properly said that the Devil can "quote Scripture to his purpose." The Bible is full of so many stories of contradictory moral purpose that every generation can find scriptural justification for nearly any action it propses - from incest, slavery, and mass murder to the most reined love, courage, and self-sacrifice. And this moral multiple personality disorder is hardly restricted to Judaism and Christianity. You can find it deep within Islam, the Hindu tradition, indeed nearly all the world's religions. Perhaps then it is not so much scientists as people who are morally ambiguous. -- Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"This is my commandment, that ye love one another." -- Jesus of Nazareth (Bible, John 15:12)
"Love thy neighbour as thyself." -- Jesus of Nazareth (Bible, Matthew xix. 19.)
"If thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head." -- Jesus of Nazareth (Bible, Romans xii. 20.)
"Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good." -- Jesus of Nazareth (Bible, Romans xii. 21.)
-Ryan!
"I quote others only the better to express myself." -- Michel de Montaigne
"Next to being witty yourself, the best thing is being able to quote another's wit." -- Christian N. Bovee
"When a thing has been said and well said, have no scruple; take it and copy it." -- Anatole France
"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
<!--QuoteBegin--UkiTakuMuki+Oct. 25 2002,21:18--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (UkiTakuMuki @ Oct. 25 2002,21:18)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I say Joan had a bad time in bed with her boyfriend, he didnt please her as usual and as the psychotic ##### she was, she decided that since she was some sort of person with royal blood, she makes a story up, and sends those peasants, whom have sworn their lives to her and her cause... stragith to hell.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Off-topic here, but the story of Joan of Arc is an astounding one, made even more so by the fact that she wasn't royalty at all, merely a peasant girl who received a vision.
-Ryan!
"Its name is Public Opinion. It is held in reverence. It settles everything. Some think it is the voice of God." -- Mark Twain
I feel tensions slowly rising in here... Moleculor might've been right...
I could say several things right now, but I'll only address one issue.
CMeast claims original sin was created by God. In the way that he allowed it to happen, yes. But I ask you this, if you could choose any spouse you wanted. And then ensure that spouse's love of you through some device. Would you feel more loved then, or if you chose not to use the device and your spouse chose to love you?
Proposed definition of evil as far as my cases are set: That which is not in accordance with the will of God. Yes, that means God cannot do or be evil by definition.
While it was not God's will that man turn against him, he allowed it so that those who chose to love Him could offer meaningful worship. Theory that I offer.
I actually claim that God doesnt exist. If he did there wouldnt be original sin either. I was merely pointing out that God 'supposedly' caused everything to exist and that includes evil. At least, we have labeled it evil but if God made it then, as you said, it cant actually be 'Evil' (notice the capital E) and 'Evil' cant actually exist.
As I said, God couldnt really create freewill because he created the entire universe and knows everything. Nothing we do is freewill, just look at ad campaigns! There was a program I watched, they gave an ad campaign job to marketing guys and told them to come up with something original. What they didnt tell them was that they had placed subliminal clues to it all around them, certain designs, logos and slogans which they could use in the campaign were put up as posters and in shop windows which they drove past on the way to the job. At the end of it they came up with almost exactly what was predicted, they chose the same ad that had been hinted to them even though the hinting was only done in a very subtle way. They thought they were being creative but actually it was just their environment that came up with it. They just compiled the ideas.
Freewill is an illusion, we dont truly think anything original so how can anyone say that we 'chose' to fall? That we chose to act Evil? Especially if a God created ,not only us, but everything around us too!
This is an interesting discussion <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
I disagree with almost everyone who says that religion is fundamentally wrong.
I believe that religion gives people hope and that is a good thing.
It is true though that at times when the power of religion was strongest, the Medieval period, people believed in God wholeheartedly because their lives were so terrible and short that they needed something to believe in.
Now that people are living longer and the quality of their lives is much better than it was people start to question their faith in religion. I do not disagree with this at all; I questioned my faith and for a while became atheistic in my views. After a while, I don't know if it was weakness on my part or whatever but I decided to follow the Christian faith again.
I don't agree with some of the rules laid down in the Old Testament but quite frankly I could find nothing wrong in Jesus' teachings and believed that they were a good way to live my life.
I usually find that when I ask people why they decided to bash Christianity and make fun of it they come out with weird or outdated parts of the Old Testament and show me that science can or will prove almost everything.
Which is fair enough by me, but I believe that the main reason why people insist on bashing Christianity is that they get to feel more intelligent than people who follow it. They think that they have become greater than the sheep that follow this "pointless religion" blindly.
Personally I believe that these people are worse than those who follow religion blindly and unquestioningly, because they decide to question Christianity but decided not to hear any answers.
I challenge anyone who has become an atheist to ask a local priest, or Alim, and ask them why they follow the religion they do and question them on the points that people raise here: "Religion causes wars" and so on...
Surely is it not better to listen and learn than be content in "knowledgeable ignorance"?
[I know I was slightyly biased towards Christianity in saying religion but I am not an Islamic scholar or a scholar of any kind. Just a guy who is trying get his point across.]
I've been reading through a lot of your posts, and the thing that really strikes me is that the pople who are speaking out against religion most actively are those that do not believe that:
A) Something could or should judge them.
B) They need religion to go about their lives.
The first one... I simply cannot grasp. Are you saying that nothing, ever, has the right to comdemn you?
IN the end, this theory always leads down to either disbelief in God, or arrogance. If you do believe that something, greater than yourself, has created you, or even <i>exists</i>, and yet you refuse to play by it's rules, then you are showing either great deal of pride, and a great deal of arrogance.
The second one, the belief that you don't need a God to go about your life... in some aspects your right! BUt the thing is that a great deal of religions are focused on what happens after you die. SO either you just don't care, or again, you don't believe God exists...
I think it was C.S.Lewis (Btw, notice how almost all Christian authors have 2 initials then their last name?) who said that we can have no concept of a straight line, if all we have ever seen is crooked ones. Apply this logic to God. Is it really possible to imagine a God, when one does not exist? My answer is no, I don't believe that humans can truely <i>create</i>. Splice ideas from our environment? Of course! BUt in the end, I don't think that we are altually capable of coming up with any completely new concepts. Wanna argue with me? Think of a color. No, not one that can be expressed through photoshop or something, <i><b>make up a color</b></i>. Then, describe it to us in such a way that we can image it too, and then I'll believe you that the whole concept of religion can be made up.
As for arrogance/ Pride.... I just hope that something happens to you down the road taht takes away from you sense of both... Not because I wish harm on you, but because this is how I ended up finding (being found?) by God, and for me, every day in my life since then has been better for that reason. I'm not saying it's been a crutch, far from it, in the world's sense of what is right, I've gone against it, been called "wierd", and whatnot, but at the end of the day, I just feel more fulfilled then I ever was before.
<!--QuoteBegin--Legionnaired+Oct. 26 2002,11:23--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Legionnaired @ Oct. 26 2002,11:23)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I've been reading through a lot of your posts, and the thing that really strikes me is that the pople who are speaking out against religion most actively are those that do not believe that:
A) Something could or should judge them.
B) They need religion to go about their lives.
The first one... I simply cannot grasp. Are you saying that nothing, ever, has the right to comdemn you?
IN the end, this theory always leads down to either disbelief in God, or arrogance. If you do believe that something, greater than yourself, has created you, or even <i>exists</i>, and yet you refuse to play by it's rules, then you are showing either great deal of pride, and a great deal of arrogance.
The second one, the belief that you don't need a God to go about your life... in some aspects your right! BUt the thing is that a great deal of religions are focused on what happens after you die. SO either you just don't care, or again, you don't believe God exists...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Ah but you see... let me explain myself seeing as I fall into that category of people.
First, previously mentioned by CMEast was that humans by nature are nasty evil creatures. I didn't read through all the posts after that, but I want to put in my 2 cents. -EDIT- CM, read your post over again and come to the realization that we pretty much believe the same thing. I still don't think we are "evil" by nature, but in essence I agree with you. We are "brainwashed"- some for good, some for not so good.
We are not vile and evil by nature. When we're young babies we don't have the mental capacity to understand anything but survival, nor the physical means to keep ourselves alive. So we know only self-survival and yet depend wholey on the actions of others to attain it. As we get older our morals and understandings start to develop. I wholey believe that parenting has a HUGE role in how we turn out.. because I was lucky and lived in a home with parents that stayed married; I wasn't spoiled rotten or ignored either.
I turned out open minded and care for others to an extent most would not believe. One of the kids in my neighborhood was insanely spoiled. I remember one birthday he got a SNES and a Genesis plus multiple games and a load of other crap. Yet his parents fought and let him do as he pleased. He used people to get what he wanted and didn't care one bit for their welfare.
I was cared for and taught to be selfless.. and I am. He was spoiled and ignored.. and in turn wants everything and ignores others.
By nature we are not evil, but by what we learn to be true. He learned that the world was his for the taking. I learned there's a lot more to life than me. By human standards you could say we were "good" and "evil." One selfish, one selfless. Neither of us went to church, and to the best of my knowledge he didn't actively practice any religion.
On another note, some one said they don't know any violent Christians. I'd like to say that I have met MANY. I've also met some good hearted ones. Religion doesn't seem to have any bearing on some ones tendancies to be kind or not. In some cases I've seen them become arrogant and look down on me for not "being saved."
Ok, to what I originally intended to write.. woops <!--emo&:(--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('><!--endemo--> Yes, I AM saying nothing has the right to condemn me. Not because I am "better" than God or that I should not follow his rules.. but because I am a part of God, as are all of you. But this is laughed at, because it's been drilled into our heads our entire lives that we are evil and imperfect and God is Holy and forgiving. I was once told by a friend that I'm Buddhist for that belief- though I know next to nothing of it.
We don't need organized religion because all of them set us apart from those who do not belong, and likewise set rules and limits. I live by one simple rule. Harm none.
What can you possibly do that is wrong if you do not harm anyone- be it physical/mental/social? Albeit, this will at many times require thinking about future choices/consequences. But if we all understood such a simple fundamental rule... there would be no crime, no greed, no power hungry fools. It's the idealists world, and it's scoffed at not because it's impossible- but because everyone thinks it is. (by everyone, I mean a very large majority) It's only impossible because we all think it is, and therefor do not choose it.
It's that simple. We collectively choose not to live a peaceful life. Think about it.
I'm done.. if I've hit any nerves I apologize, I know this is a sensitive topic. Anything you wish to clear up with me, be it anger or curiousity, will gladly be handled in a PM.
<!--QuoteBegin--Josiah Bartlet+Oct. 26 2002,09:55--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (Josiah Bartlet @ Oct. 26 2002,09:55)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I don't agree with some of the rules laid down in the Old Testament but quite frankly I could find nothing wrong in Jesus' teachings and believed that they were a good way to live my life.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Hear, hear.
In fact, I applaud your entire post. And many of the posts here on the thread. We've made it to the fifth page...
My relutance to declare myself Christian is the insistence by the Christians I know that insist that one cannot selectively choose what parts of the Bible to belive in. And that leads to quite a few conflicts, not the least of which is the concept of the virgin birth. The virgin birth was not declared in the Aramaic version of the Testament, it was instead declared by Pope Pius IX as dogmatic law in 1854.
I quote <a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12134b.htm" target="_blank">this page</a>:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->As early as 1849, when he was an exile at Gaëta, he issued letters to the bishops of the Church, asking their views on the subject of the Immaculate Conception, and on 8 Dec., 1854, in the presence of more than 200 bishops, he proclaimed the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin as a dogma of the Church.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Besides which, it conflicts with the Bible itself in Matthew One and in Luke, when the Jesus's lineage was traced back to King David, but both accounts of genealogy trace the lineage from David to Joseph.
Of course, Matthew traced 28 generations, and Luke 43, which raises conflicts right there.
I apologize if I have offended anyone. That was not my intention. What I do hope to accomplish is to make you question your beliefs. If your beliefs stand up to your questioning, then they are only bolstered, and should be kept, and treasured. If they do not stand up to questioning...
I am agnostic, but there is no question the the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth should be revered.
Again, I apologize if anyone if offended.
-Ryan!
To be sure, the vast majority of people who are untrained can accept the results of science only on authority. But there is obviously an important difference between an establishment that is open and invites everyone to come, study its methods, and suggest improvement, and one that regards the questioning of its credentials as due to wickedness of the heart, such as [Cardinal] Newman attributed to those who questioned the infallibility of the Bible...Rational science treats its credit notes as always redeemable on demand, while non-rational authoritarianism regards the demand for the redemption of its paper as a disloyal lack of faith. -- Morris Cohen, Reason and Nature, 1931
I am a “Christian” and , for the time, must attend mass every Sunday. If you actually pay attention it becomes depressing to listen to the speakers/priests. They contradict themselves, take something extremely small and make it into a big thing, and just waste time. But then again they have to get up every Sunday and say something, and the bible only has so many pages...
What’s it really matter, if you live a good life you get into ‘heaven’ if there is such a thing.
Too much fuss and hollering over something that's a fantasy. Churches are the reason why people died in Medieval days. Indirectly, yes, but they still kept those people at the lower rungs of life, while at the same time, taking all their money through taxes and donations to "God".
I see little difference in the way it works today.
So, The whole is discussion is pretty much off basis because the decision is NOT between "God" or "No God". It's a decision between "Right" and "Wrong". People either do bad things or they help each other out and have respect for other people that have to live around them. I choose the latter because I was raised right.
"God" has nothing to do with it.
Geez, heavy topic. I'm gonna go let my brain cool off for a while.
Anyway, munchkin: "Yes, I AM saying nothing has the right to condemn me. Not because I am "better" than God or that I should not follow his rules.. but because I am a part of God, as are all of you."
A part of Christian/Jewish teaching is that mankind was once united with god, but by choosing sin, fell away from him.
The rest of the book is about trying to get back in league with him. Obviously, both faiths do so in completely different ways, Christianity is focused on God taking the the first step of extending a way of reconciling the world, Judeism is about living your life by his rules to win his favor again.
But that's besides the point. The point is, that even if you were once part of God, if you choose to reject him completely, are you really still part of him? That seems to be your basis for saying that God should not/ can not judge you, but according to most biblical teachings, if you sin, you are doing just that. Since everybody sins.. well....
I really don't mind _too_ much if someone, out of a great deal of thought, has chosen a religion different than mine ( non-denominational Christianity), then I guess I can accept that. However, if you choose to believe a god does not exist at all... That's what I have a problem with... Not you munchkin, jsut in general.
im pretty much gonna secod what legionnared is saying. god never said to hide in a cave somewhere and restrictourselves from society. but if anything draws you away from god, thats something we shouldnt be doing. Thats just up to the person. see, i, personally dont sin when i play videogames. i dont envision blowing my friends away, and i dont use it as an outlet for some inner rage. i use it for relaxation an a fun time to hang out with friends (which is biblical)
Too much fuss and hollering over something that's a fantasy. Churches are the reason why people died in Medieval days. Indirectly, yes, but they still kept those people at the lower rungs of life, while at the same time, taking all their money through taxes and donations to "God".
I see little difference in the way it works today.
So, The whole is discussion is pretty much off basis because the decision is NOT between "God" or "No God". It's a decision between "Right" and "Wrong". People either do bad things or they help each other out and have respect for other people that have to live around them. I choose the latter because I was raised right.
"God" has nothing to do with it.
Geez, heavy topic. I'm gonna go let my brain cool off for a while.
<a href="http://cx.wideloader.com" target="_blank">Critical eXtinction</a> <a href="mailto:jcram@wideloader.com">jcram@wideloader.com</a> <a href="http://www.wideloader.com" target="_blank">Wideloader Designs</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> You wanna know what my church uses that money for?
For those of you too lazy to click the link, it's missions trips.. going to other countries, helping out those lesser off, and teaching them the teachings of the Lord.
We even have inner city ministries.. some of the kids that were saved through those are my close personal friends.
The way I look at it, everything that we're given is, in fact, a gift from God. Even if you don't give it to an established church, you should still think of it as his money...
Shining example.. I'm a paintballer. Well this one kid at my school, who isn't as well-off financially as the rest of some of us, likes to play too, but naturally, he can't pay for such an expensive hobby (read: addiction).
So, my friends and I started chipping in to buy him paint and air when we would play... and finally he asked all of us why we kept doing it. I told him I didn't see it as that important a commodity, and told him why... It just totally changed his thinking on religion.
I'm not saying the church(es) in medival times weren't corrupt, I'll give you that much, but that's hardly a basis to discount what they helped to corrupt.
Oh, and sorry to burst your bubble, but church diddn't take away nearly as much money as the landowners, king, and middle class. If this argument is the best you can come up with, that some people, 400 years ago were corrupt, then I find you speaking out of ignorance.
Now, there's pages and pages full of religous arguments here that I'm not going to bother reading because I just don't really care about it. I will, however, add to the confusion and state my oppinions.
I believe that there is no such thing as god, I dont believe in any sort of god, I dont believe jesus was somehow the son of god, I don't believe that mohommad was the messanger of allah, none of it. I believe it's just alot of bullcrap invented by people who didn't know how to explain how something happened, like how the sun moved across the sky every day. People today still follow it because it makes them happier people, but most of the time I'm just annoyed by the arrogance of the people who will always conclude that god made everything. I god extremely mad at some guy not long ago who ranted about how darwin was an idiot and that there was no such thing as evolution, because god wrote it all. Religion means nothing to me. I know that to others it means lots, and I know that for those people it helps them in many ways. For me, I just laugh at the thought.
By the way, there is no point in trying to convince somebody to believe/stop believing in god
Well i have debates similar to this with my dad often. He is a Chatholic and im trying to figures stuffs out.
I agrue to see if he can justify his beliefs not to bash them, but one thing ive always wonder was this:
(CANT QUOTE) but it says in 2 diffrent spots in the bible that "You must love god." and "You must fear god." Then in another place that "You cannot have love with fear." (like i said i cant quote and i wish i could) and it was one thing that blocks my total belief. My dad has said to take everything in the bible as truths, because man is imperfect and that the bible has been writing by thousands of men. Therefor something is always lost threw conversions in language and threw the subtle diffrences bewtween each man. I at least find this to be resonable awnser.
SO TO THE POINT:
I seen some poeple post that THEY BELEAVE IN GOD, but that they dont think HE CAN JUDGE THEM, or that GOD WOULD HATE THEM FOR DOING X. Well it is my belief that if he does exsist, and that if you beleave that the bible is as closly accurate as it can possibly be then YES HE CAN JUDGE YOU. He doesnt HATE you if you dont, but he WILL punish you. I hate the fact that to beleave in chotholism that much of my life is filled of SIN and that im gonna burn in hell because of it, that is one of the things that makes me hate god.(yes i dont know if he does exsist, and right now if he does i kinda hate him)
Well thats my veiw on it all... if someone could tell me where i could find those (half arse quotes) i would apprciate it.
<!--QuoteBegin--The Scapegoat+Oct. 26 2002,22:24--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (The Scapegoat @ Oct. 26 2002,22:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then in another place that "You cannot have love with fear." (like i said i cant quote and i wish i could)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've got this one covered.
"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear." -- Jesus of Nazareth (Bible, 1 John iv. 18.)
-Ryan!
"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" -- Jesus of Nazareth (Bible, Matthew xvi. 26.)
<!--QuoteBegin--H'BNayr+Oct. 26 2002,22:32--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (H'BNayr @ Oct. 26 2002,22:32)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin--><!--QuoteBegin--The Scapegoat+Oct. 26 2002,22:24--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (The Scapegoat @ Oct. 26 2002,22:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Then in another place that "You cannot have love with fear." (like i said i cant quote and i wish i could)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I've got this one covered.
"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear." -- Jesus of Nazareth (Bible, 1 John iv. 18.)
-Ryan!
"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" -- Jesus of Nazareth (Bible, Matthew xvi. 26.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> Your quotes pwn once again.
WOW... This is the first topic on any forum that I have ever seen seem (To me) to go in favor of Christianity. (I am currious, are any of the administrators religious, I know that this would most likely cause some issues and I never post here, but I am a forum regular on a couple other forums and have seen a lot of posts like this on other forums and they always seem to go twards the oposite views(atheism). One of the reasons why I was wondering if somme of the admins/some people working on this mod are religious is because of how well behaved this forum is.)
I am Christian, and I do not beleive that violent games/movies are bad, but I think that these should not interfear with your releationship with God. Also I would like to say that the huge majority of the Christians here are putting up a good image for us, and the reason some (I think) people turn atheist or even satanic are because of the people who claim to be Christians but don't show it. And a response to one of the things, I also have never seen a quick tempered true Christian. I would also like to say that atheism is actually a relegion. It takes just as much faith to beleive in something that can be "proven" by scientific theories as it does to beleive in a God. Anyone who says that there is no proof of a God, I ask you to just look at the world from an oposite perspective and think about it. To me it has been proven over and over again and because of my personal experiences I have grown to be a much better Christian through suffering, and I do not think that I would be a Christian if humans had no concept of pain/suffering. And also I beleive God did not creat evil, he created a means for it to be here. Atempting to understand the way it works I personally think, is not possible, we have not experienced anything other than ourselves and the world we live it. Actually, most of us probably haven't even experienced 10% of the things that are even on the earth. I think that everyone can see God in his/her surroundings, he/she just needs to look.
I may have been more nitpicky and more sentimental/personal in my views cause i felt that this thread was abt to go into a flamer-state... but iwas proved wrong ^^
this time, ill just like to say something, im sure many of you will agree:
In Life, you can believe in anything and everything u so please. But in order to live a -pleasant- life, you should adhere to your social beliefs, such as respect and tolerance, non-ignorance, not being arrogant or snobbish, not being too overbearing. However if you do otherwise, just accept the possible consequences of your actions, that is all. I have found throughout my life that there is a very thin line separating right and wrong. i just hope all of us find our selves in this mad world.
Actions and Consequence has shaped our world and will forever do so, until the sun dies out.
as you can see im no longer talking about why religion is bad or not and its relation to Gaming, and i hope this is not too far off-topic, as well as my far-flung stories; but i do sincerely believe that the point about ACtions and Consequence goes a far way in the understanding of how the topic started anyway.
thanks for readin' <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
I find that most people who mock religion have a go at it because of the organisation rather than the concept. All large organisations are flawed, they are filled with people. Of course religion is used as a control, of course religion is used for proft, everything is. That doesnt mean that a belief in God is bad. You cant use people as an example either. A persons religious beliefs rarely affects their temperament, it simply allows them to feel better about themselves and their actions. If they are good people then they are labeled "true believers" but thats silly. Their personal alignment doesnt affect their belief. They could be a violent, ignorant and hateful person and still believe in God, it just means they can justify themselves by saying they did what God would want.
The whole concept of religion is a good thing. However it came about, a religion always sets fundamental rules which, if everyone followed, would benefit society. Its the people that come afterwards that translate, add and otherwise 'interpret' the rules that always causes grief. The teachings of all the major religions Ive researched into all say things like be nice to each other, dont kill etc and how can anyone really disagree with that?
Oh, I also hate the idea of having to fear a God as well as love him/her/it and, if I had a choice, would choose to follow a religion without that. I do understand it though... its hard to describe. The best way Ive heard to describe it was in the Narnia books, Aslan is described as terrifying and yet the most wonderful, lovely thing ever. Read any of the Narnia series if you want to understand (The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe etc by C.S.Lewis (mentioned by legionnaired earlier). BTW Legionnaired. The idea C.S.Lewis was talking about was a version of the 'Trademark Argument' by Descartes (who has adapted it from other people). It has been proven wrong about a billion times. Sorry <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
On judging, if God exists then he/she/it could Judge you. No-one else is able to judge your life though.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think that everyone can see God in his/her surroundings, he/she just needs to look.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes Bronto, but we can make ourselves see anything. We can see beauty everywhere too if we try hard enough but that doesnt mean everything is beautiful. Its not a case of finding something thats there, its a case of looking at things in the right light, the right attitude. This is a trick anyone can learn and Im afraid doesnt prove much <!--emo&:(--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('><!--endemo-->
Josiah, Ive had talked to many vicars, priests etc for hours at a time. Ive stayed round a vicars house twice and helped plan a service with another one. In fact Ive even watched a porn movie round a vicars house <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo--> (thats another story for another time <!--emo&:p--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo-->). We always end up disagreeing. I personally dont believe its possible to sway someone with logical arguments. Either you are a believer or you arent. Those who have 'seen the light' have normally always believed in something but have never named that something because theyve never questioned it, because they werent in the right crowd etc. Those who dont believe never will and although they might say they do will always doubt. Its about Faith, the whole point of which is... well its almost an irrational belief, there is <i>no</i> proof, you just believe!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->You watched a television show and decided that there is no such thing as Free Will?
Holy Crap! Turn off the damn T.V. already. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spooge dont be silly, it was simply a useful example of what I have always thought. Oh and this is not a flame, nor was his. Dont lock the topic for that as its been a good one so far.
This is weird, I tend to play Devils Advocate in alot of arguments but Religion is a question thats always been important to me and even though my personal conclusion is that there is no god that doesnt mean I dont understand and try to protect wholeheartedly those ideals that so many people believe in and rely upon.
Keep the discussion going if you have anything more to add, I love this stuff 8D (no more emoticons 8(... 8D)
<!--QuoteBegin--CMEast+Oct. 27 2002,00:53--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (CMEast @ Oct. 27 2002,00:53)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I find that most people who mock religion have a go at it because of the organisation rather than the concept. All large organisations are flawed, they are filled with people. Of course religion is used as a control, of course religion is used for proft, everything is. That doesnt mean that a belief in God is bad. You cant use people as an example either. A persons religious beliefs rarely affects their temperament, it simply allows them to feel better about themselves and their actions. If they are good people then they are labeled "true believers" but thats silly. Their personal alignment doesnt affect their belief. They could be a violent, ignorant and hateful person and still believe in God, it just means they can justify themselves by saying they did what God would want.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I agree whole-heartedly here.. suprisingly <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->.
That large orginisation thing is probably why my church is organised into small, decentralized bible studies.
The group I'm in now has about 20 high school guys, talking about life, bitching about life, talking about the Bible, and seeing how we can apply it to our lives.
There's no money changing hands, no irrational demands.... It's truely one of the things that's made me grow as a Christian, mainly because 90% of the stuff I've learned about God is stuff I've read about, prayed about, and made my own interpretation of.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I personally dont believe its possible to sway someone with logical arguments. Either you are a believer or you arent. Those who have 'seen the light' have normally always believed in something but have never named that something because theyve never questioned it, because they werent in the right crowd etc. Those who dont believe never will and although they might say they do will always doubt. Its about Faith, the whole point of which is... well its almost an irrational belief, there is no proof, you just believe! <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SO what you're saying is that you cannot convert a person with systems and argumetns of this world? You are saying that it takes something greater to do so? <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
It did for me. I'm a Christian now because of the irational, and illogical power of God. I know that sounds odd, but believe me. If you knew me before I started coming around, you would believe it too. I was, quite possibly, <i>the</i> most concieded and arrogant person I've ever met back then. So says almost everyone who knew me back then.
People don't change like that all of a sudden, not in my experience anyway, unless there is something much greater than logic involved.
From what my parents told me, I'm a Christian, Lutheran, but I've never been too terribly spiritual. I play games because they're fun, particularly Half-Life (nothing satisfies me like spreading a marines innards to the wall, when he no doubt previously thought he was superior to any man in the Army, only to be capped by a Ranger). I'm in no position to criticize violence in video games, seeing as it's my job to kill people who mess with the U.S., and I really don't pay much attention the the Christian media. I'll keep playing games, no matter their content.
<!--QuoteBegin--The Scapegoat+Oct. 26 2002,22:24--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> (The Scapegoat @ Oct. 26 2002,22:24)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I hate the fact that to beleave in chotholism that much of my life is filled of SIN and that im gonna burn in hell because of it, that is one of the things that makes me hate god.(yes i dont know if he does exsist, and right now if he does i kinda hate him)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> That's just the thing, yes I deserve to go to hell, BUT I don't have to! That debt was paid. "You are called to be free from the law, but do not use your freedom to live a sinful life." -Bible, new testament, further reference unknown
Also, I am feeling quite distressed that people speak of proof to the existence of God or some manner of his being. I point you to an individual's several pages long mathematical proof, sorry can't remember the name of the guy (maybe I can dig it up), saying "I am not provable"
What this says is two-fold but can be condensed. 1: He is true but not provable 2: He is false and provable result: What is true and what is provable are unrelated
And also, some seem to be attempting to lessen God's image by making it abundantly clear that they don't believe in Him. "A man can no more diminish the glory of God by refusing to worship him than a lunatic can blot out the sun by writing the word "darkness" on his cell wall" -C.S. Lewis
The main reason I dislike religion is that from my point of view it is just plain wrong, however that is my view, which I’m entitled to, and I’m most deffinately not trying to force it anyone else.
A few reasons I don’t and never will believe in god.
1. There is no way that I’ll ever believe in something that is un-provable, just because you can’t prove that he doesn’t exist doesn’t mean anything to me unless you can prove that he does.
2. I can’t understand hoe anyone can believe in a particular god when there are simply so many religions all claiming that they are worshiping the real god. Some people say that it doesn’t matter which god you believe in because they are all connected to god, and it is that which matters. I don’t get this either because different religions are always squabbling amongst each other.
3. I don’t believe in god, but that doesn’t make me try to impose that on other people, and it is fairly rare that atheists do. Some atheists don’t treat religious people with the respect they deserve, but they certainly do not go around knocking on doors telling people they should not believe in god, unlike some religious groups who actively go out trying to make people see the “right way”.
4. I can’t get past the fact that there is so much wrong with religion and yet it is supposed to be god’s way to live life. If I were god I’d be mighty annoyed at what a shambles the average faith is.
FamDiaper-Wearing Dog On A BallJoin Date: 2002-02-17Member: 222Members, NS1 Playtester, Contributor
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I would also like to say that atheism is actually a relegion. It takes just as much faith to beleive in something that can be "proven" by scientific theories as it does to beleive in a God.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd--> I thank you for your attitude. I was once a pretty devout Christian. However I have come to view the world in terms of such scientific theories. As in any religion, my belief and faith in the ability to correctly justify things may not be based on truth. It is not for us to know what is the whole truth, but we must work on trying to continually justify the world.
Does my disbelief in a 'higher-power' lead me to be an evil or a sinful person? Ignoring the fact that both of these words only have meaning within a life of a religious belief that practices such concepts, I don't feel I am. I live my life to a set of values, morals and good-will which I have had not defined for me by a large organisation, but defined by myself to keep me a decent person. I believe that people in general are decent, I believe in correct punishment for those who harm other people and I believe that there is more safety in scientific proof than there is in unquestioning belief.
I apologise to anyone who is active in their local religious community, but I believe that most modern religions are nothing more than the decaying voice of the state. I see more comparisons between McDonalds and churches than I do between proper religious beliefs and churches.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing." "But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own argument, you don't. QED." "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
InsaneAnomalyJoin Date: 2002-05-13Member: 605Members, Super Administrators, Forum Admins, NS1 Playtester, Forum Moderators, NS2 Developer, Constellation, NS2 Playtester, Squad Five Blue, NS2 Map Tester, Subnautica Developer, Pistachionauts, Future Perfect Developer
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->And then man goes on to prove that black is white and is killed on the next zebra crossing<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Comments
I am an atheist. I live to live and help other people to help other people. Not because I think there is a reward or punishment at the end of the tunnel. I do what I want when I want because I want to. I deciede for me what is right and what is wrong. I was not born evil. I was born human.
just don;t let me get started on Mass Media
As being agnostic (God might not notice us at all, but there IS a beginning with the Big Bang...had to start somewhere), I don't have much to add to the conversation. But I do have an interesting quote supporting this thought. To balance it out, I will also quote the New Testament. Bear with me.
In Joshua and in the second half of Numbers is celebrated the mass murder of men, women, children, down to domestic animals in city after city across the whole land of Canaan. Jericho is obliterated in a kherem, a "holy war." The only justification offered for this slaughter is the mass murderers' claim that, in exchange for circumcising their sons and adopting a particular set of ritualsm their ancestors were long before promised that this land was their land. Not a hint of self-reproach, not a muttering of patriarchal or divine disquiet at these campaigns of extermination can be dug out of holy scripture. Instead, Joshua "destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded" (Joshua 10:40). And these events are not incidental, but central to the main narrative thrust of the Old Testament. Similar stories of mass murder (and in the case of the Amalekites, genocide) can be found in the books of Saul, Esther, and elsewhere in the Bible, with hardly a pang of moral doubt. It was all, of course, troubling to liberal theologians of a later age.
It is properly said that the Devil can "quote Scripture to his purpose." The Bible is full of so many stories of contradictory moral purpose that every generation can find scriptural justification for nearly any action it propses - from incest, slavery, and mass murder to the most reined love, courage, and self-sacrifice. And this moral multiple personality disorder is hardly restricted to Judaism and Christianity. You can find it deep within Islam, the Hindu tradition, indeed nearly all the world's religions. Perhaps then it is not so much scientists as people who are morally ambiguous.
-- Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World
"This is my commandment, that ye love one another."
-- Jesus of Nazareth (Bible, John 15:12)
"Love thy neighbour as thyself."
-- Jesus of Nazareth (Bible, Matthew xix. 19.)
"If thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head."
-- Jesus of Nazareth (Bible, Romans xii. 20.)
"Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good."
-- Jesus of Nazareth (Bible, Romans xii. 21.)
-Ryan!
"I quote others only the better to express myself."
-- Michel de Montaigne
"Next to being witty yourself, the best thing is being able to quote another's wit."
-- Christian N. Bovee
"When a thing has been said and well said, have no scruple; take it and copy it."
-- Anatole France
"I hate quotations. Tell me what you know."
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
"A clever saying proves nothing."
-- Voltaire
Off-topic here, but the story of Joan of Arc is an astounding one, made even more so by the fact that she wasn't royalty at all, merely a peasant girl who received a vision.
-Ryan!
"Its name is Public Opinion. It is held in reverence. It settles everything. Some think it is the voice of God."
-- Mark Twain
I could say several things right now, but I'll only address one issue.
CMeast claims original sin was created by God. In the way that he allowed it to happen, yes. But I ask you this, if you could choose any spouse you wanted. And then ensure that spouse's love of you through some device. Would you feel more loved then, or if you chose not to use the device and your spouse chose to love you?
Proposed definition of evil as far as my cases are set: That which is not in accordance with the will of God.
Yes, that means God cannot do or be evil by definition.
While it was not God's will that man turn against him, he allowed it so that those who chose to love Him could offer meaningful worship. Theory that I offer.
As I said, God couldnt really create freewill because he created the entire universe and knows everything. Nothing we do is freewill, just look at ad campaigns! There was a program I watched, they gave an ad campaign job to marketing guys and told them to come up with something original. What they didnt tell them was that they had placed subliminal clues to it all around them, certain designs, logos and slogans which they could use in the campaign were put up as posters and in shop windows which they drove past on the way to the job.
At the end of it they came up with almost exactly what was predicted, they chose the same ad that had been hinted to them even though the hinting was only done in a very subtle way. They thought they were being creative but actually it was just their environment that came up with it. They just compiled the ideas.
Freewill is an illusion, we dont truly think anything original so how can anyone say that we 'chose' to fall? That we chose to act Evil? Especially if a God created ,not only us, but everything around us too!
This is an interesting discussion <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
Holy Crap! Turn off the damn T.V. already.
I believe that religion gives people hope and that is a good thing.
It is true though that at times when the power of religion was strongest, the Medieval period, people believed in God wholeheartedly because their lives were so terrible and short that they needed something to believe in.
Now that people are living longer and the quality of their lives is much better than it was people start to question their faith in religion. I do not disagree with this at all; I questioned my faith and for a while became atheistic in my views. After a while, I don't know if it was weakness on my part or whatever but I decided to follow the Christian faith again.
I don't agree with some of the rules laid down in the Old Testament but quite frankly I could find nothing wrong in Jesus' teachings and believed that they were a good way to live my life.
I usually find that when I ask people why they decided to bash Christianity and make fun of it they come out with weird or outdated parts of the Old Testament and show me that science can or will prove almost everything.
Which is fair enough by me, but I believe that the main reason why people insist on bashing Christianity is that they get to feel more intelligent than people who follow it. They think that they have become greater than the sheep that follow this "pointless religion" blindly.
Personally I believe that these people are worse than those who follow religion blindly and unquestioningly, because they decide to question Christianity but decided not to hear any answers.
I challenge anyone who has become an atheist to ask a local priest, or Alim, and ask them why they follow the religion they do and question them on the points that people raise here: "Religion causes wars" and so on...
Surely is it not better to listen and learn than be content in "knowledgeable ignorance"?
[I know I was slightyly biased towards Christianity in saying religion but I am not an Islamic scholar or a scholar of any kind. Just a guy who is trying get his point across.]
A) Something could or should judge them.
B) They need religion to go about their lives.
The first one... I simply cannot grasp. Are you saying that nothing, ever, has the right to comdemn you?
IN the end, this theory always leads down to either disbelief in God, or arrogance. If you do believe that something, greater than yourself, has created you, or even <i>exists</i>, and yet you refuse to play by it's rules, then you are showing either great deal of pride, and a great deal of arrogance.
The second one, the belief that you don't need a God to go about your life... in some aspects your right! BUt the thing is that a great deal of religions are focused on what happens after you die. SO either you just don't care, or again, you don't believe God exists...
I think it was C.S.Lewis (Btw, notice how almost all Christian authors have 2 initials then their last name?) who said that we can have no concept of a straight line, if all we have ever seen is crooked ones. Apply this logic to God. Is it really possible to imagine a God, when one does not exist? My answer is no, I don't believe that humans can truely <i>create</i>. Splice ideas from our environment? Of course! BUt in the end, I don't think that we are altually capable of coming up with any completely new concepts. Wanna argue with me? Think of a color. No, not one that can be expressed through photoshop or something, <i><b>make up a color</b></i>. Then, describe it to us in such a way that we can image it too, and then I'll believe you that the whole concept of religion can be made up.
As for arrogance/ Pride.... I just hope that something happens to you down the road taht takes away from you sense of both... Not because I wish harm on you, but because this is how I ended up finding (being found?) by God, and for me, every day in my life since then has been better for that reason. I'm not saying it's been a crutch, far from it, in the world's sense of what is right, I've gone against it, been called "wierd", and whatnot, but at the end of the day, I just feel more fulfilled then I ever was before.
</rant>
A) Something could or should judge them.
B) They need religion to go about their lives.
The first one... I simply cannot grasp. Are you saying that nothing, ever, has the right to comdemn you?
IN the end, this theory always leads down to either disbelief in God, or arrogance. If you do believe that something, greater than yourself, has created you, or even <i>exists</i>, and yet you refuse to play by it's rules, then you are showing either great deal of pride, and a great deal of arrogance.
The second one, the belief that you don't need a God to go about your life... in some aspects your right! BUt the thing is that a great deal of religions are focused on what happens after you die. SO either you just don't care, or again, you don't believe God exists...<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Ah but you see... let me explain myself seeing as I fall into that category of people.
First, previously mentioned by CMEast was that humans by nature are nasty evil creatures. I didn't read through all the posts after that, but I want to put in my 2 cents.
-EDIT-
CM, read your post over again and come to the realization that we pretty much believe the same thing. I still don't think we are "evil" by nature, but in essence I agree with you. We are "brainwashed"- some for good, some for not so good.
We are not vile and evil by nature. When we're young babies we don't have the mental capacity to understand anything but survival, nor the physical means to keep ourselves alive. So we know only self-survival and yet depend wholey on the actions of others to attain it. As we get older our morals and understandings start to develop. I wholey believe that parenting has a HUGE role in how we turn out.. because I was lucky and lived in a home with parents that stayed married; I wasn't spoiled rotten or ignored either.
I turned out open minded and care for others to an extent most would not believe. One of the kids in my neighborhood was insanely spoiled. I remember one birthday he got a SNES and a Genesis plus multiple games and a load of other crap. Yet his parents fought and let him do as he pleased. He used people to get what he wanted and didn't care one bit for their welfare.
I was cared for and taught to be selfless.. and I am.
He was spoiled and ignored.. and in turn wants everything and ignores others.
By nature we are not evil, but by what we learn to be true. He learned that the world was his for the taking. I learned there's a lot more to life than me. By human standards you could say we were "good" and "evil." One selfish, one selfless. Neither of us went to church, and to the best of my knowledge he didn't actively practice any religion.
On another note, some one said they don't know any violent Christians. I'd like to say that I have met MANY. I've also met some good hearted ones. Religion doesn't seem to have any bearing on some ones tendancies to be kind or not. In some cases I've seen them become arrogant and look down on me for not "being saved."
Ok, to what I originally intended to write.. woops <!--emo&:(--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('><!--endemo-->
Yes, I AM saying nothing has the right to condemn me. Not because I am "better" than God or that I should not follow his rules.. but because I am a part of God, as are all of you. But this is laughed at, because it's been drilled into our heads our entire lives that we are evil and imperfect and God is Holy and forgiving. I was once told by a friend that I'm Buddhist for that belief- though I know next to nothing of it.
We don't need organized religion because all of them set us apart from those who do not belong, and likewise set rules and limits. I live by one simple rule. Harm none.
What can you possibly do that is wrong if you do not harm anyone- be it physical/mental/social? Albeit, this will at many times require thinking about future choices/consequences. But if we all understood such a simple fundamental rule... there would be no crime, no greed, no power hungry fools. It's the idealists world, and it's scoffed at not because it's impossible- but because everyone thinks it is. (by everyone, I mean a very large majority) It's only impossible because we all think it is, and therefor do not choose it.
It's that simple. We collectively choose not to live a peaceful life. Think about it.
I'm done.. if I've hit any nerves I apologize, I know this is a sensitive topic. Anything you wish to clear up with me, be it anger or curiousity, will gladly be handled in a PM.
Hear, hear.
In fact, I applaud your entire post. And many of the posts here on the thread. We've made it to the fifth page...
My relutance to declare myself Christian is the insistence by the Christians I know that insist that one cannot selectively choose what parts of the Bible to belive in. And that leads to quite a few conflicts, not the least of which is the concept of the virgin birth. The virgin birth was not declared in the Aramaic version of the Testament, it was instead declared by Pope Pius IX as dogmatic law in 1854.
I quote <a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12134b.htm" target="_blank">this page</a>:
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->As early as 1849, when he was an exile at Gaëta, he issued letters to the bishops of the Church, asking their views on the subject of the Immaculate Conception, and on 8 Dec., 1854, in the presence of more than 200 bishops, he proclaimed the Immaculate Conception of the Blessed Virgin as a dogma of the Church.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Besides which, it conflicts with the Bible itself in Matthew One and in Luke, when the Jesus's lineage was traced back to King David, but both accounts of genealogy trace the lineage from David to Joseph.
Of course, Matthew traced 28 generations, and Luke 43, which raises conflicts right there.
I apologize if I have offended anyone. That was not my intention. What I do hope to accomplish is to make you question your beliefs. If your beliefs stand up to your questioning, then they are only bolstered, and should be kept, and treasured. If they do not stand up to questioning...
I am agnostic, but there is no question the the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth should be revered.
Again, I apologize if anyone if offended.
-Ryan!
To be sure, the vast majority of people who are untrained can accept the results of science only on authority. But there is obviously an important difference between an establishment that is open and invites everyone to come, study its methods, and suggest improvement, and one that regards the questioning of its credentials as due to wickedness of the heart, such as [Cardinal] Newman attributed to those who questioned the infallibility of the Bible...Rational science treats its credit notes as always redeemable on demand, while non-rational authoritarianism regards the demand for the redemption of its paper as a disloyal lack of faith.
-- Morris Cohen, Reason and Nature, 1931
What’s it really matter, if you live a good life you get into ‘heaven’ if there is such a thing.
Too much fuss and hollering over something that's a fantasy. Churches are the reason why people died in Medieval days. Indirectly, yes, but they still kept those people at the lower rungs of life, while at the same time, taking all their money through taxes and donations to "God".
I see little difference in the way it works today.
So, The whole is discussion is pretty much off basis because the decision is NOT between "God" or "No God". It's a decision between "Right" and "Wrong". People either do bad things or they help each other out and have respect for other people that have to live around them. I choose the latter because I was raised right.
"God" has nothing to do with it.
Geez, heavy topic. I'm gonna go let my brain cool off for a while.
<a href="http://cx.wideloader.com" target="_blank">Critical eXtinction</a>
<a href="mailto:jcram@wideloader.com">jcram@wideloader.com</a>
<a href="http://www.wideloader.com" target="_blank">Wideloader Designs</a>
Anyway, munchkin:
"Yes, I AM saying nothing has the right to condemn me. Not because I am "better" than God or that I should not follow his rules.. but because I am a part of God, as are all of you."
A part of Christian/Jewish teaching is that mankind was once united with god, but by choosing sin, fell away from him.
The rest of the book is about trying to get back in league with him. Obviously, both faiths do so in completely different ways, Christianity is focused on God taking the the first step of extending a way of reconciling the world, Judeism is about living your life by his rules to win his favor again.
But that's besides the point. The point is, that even if you were once part of God, if you choose to reject him completely, are you really still part of him? That seems to be your basis for saying that God should not/ can not judge you, but according to most biblical teachings, if you sin, you are doing just that. Since everybody sins.. well....
I really don't mind _too_ much if someone, out of a great deal of thought, has chosen a religion different than mine ( non-denominational Christianity), then I guess I can accept that. However, if you choose to believe a god does not exist at all... That's what I have a problem with... Not you munchkin, jsut in general.
well, i gotta go, but ill finish later.
Too much fuss and hollering over something that's a fantasy. Churches are the reason why people died in Medieval days. Indirectly, yes, but they still kept those people at the lower rungs of life, while at the same time, taking all their money through taxes and donations to "God".
I see little difference in the way it works today.
So, The whole is discussion is pretty much off basis because the decision is NOT between "God" or "No God". It's a decision between "Right" and "Wrong". People either do bad things or they help each other out and have respect for other people that have to live around them. I choose the latter because I was raised right.
"God" has nothing to do with it.
Geez, heavy topic. I'm gonna go let my brain cool off for a while.
<a href="http://cx.wideloader.com" target="_blank">Critical eXtinction</a>
<a href="mailto:jcram@wideloader.com">jcram@wideloader.com</a>
<a href="http://www.wideloader.com" target="_blank">Wideloader Designs</a><!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
You wanna know what my church uses that money for?
<a href="http://www.xenos.org/admin/missions.htm" target="_blank">http://www.xenos.org/admin/missions.htm</a>
For those of you too lazy to click the link, it's missions trips.. going to other countries, helping out those lesser off, and teaching them the teachings of the Lord.
We even have inner city ministries.. some of the kids that were saved through those are my close personal friends.
The way I look at it, everything that we're given is, in fact, a gift from God. Even if you don't give it to an established church, you should still think of it as his money...
Shining example.. I'm a paintballer. Well this one kid at my school, who isn't as well-off financially as the rest of some of us, likes to play too, but naturally, he can't pay for such an expensive hobby (read: addiction).
So, my friends and I started chipping in to buy him paint and air when we would play... and finally he asked all of us why we kept doing it. I told him I didn't see it as that important a commodity, and told him why... It just totally changed his thinking on religion.
I'm not saying the church(es) in medival times weren't corrupt, I'll give you that much, but that's hardly a basis to discount what they helped to corrupt.
Oh, and sorry to burst your bubble, but church diddn't take away nearly as much money as the landowners, king, and middle class. If this argument is the best you can come up with, that some people, 400 years ago were corrupt, then I find you speaking out of ignorance.
I believe that there is no such thing as god, I dont believe in any sort of god, I dont believe jesus was somehow the son of god, I don't believe that mohommad was the messanger of allah, none of it. I believe it's just alot of bullcrap invented by people who didn't know how to explain how something happened, like how the sun moved across the sky every day. People today still follow it because it makes them happier people, but most of the time I'm just annoyed by the arrogance of the people who will always conclude that god made everything. I god extremely mad at some guy not long ago who ranted about how darwin was an idiot and that there was no such thing as evolution, because god wrote it all. Religion means nothing to me. I know that to others it means lots, and I know that for those people it helps them in many ways. For me, I just laugh at the thought.
By the way, there is no point in trying to convince somebody to believe/stop believing in god
I agrue to see if he can justify his beliefs not to bash them, but one thing ive always wonder was this:
(CANT QUOTE) but it says in 2 diffrent spots in the bible that "You must love god." and "You must fear god." Then in another place that "You cannot have love with fear." (like i said i cant quote and i wish i could) and it was one thing that blocks my total belief. My dad has said to take everything in the bible as truths, because man is imperfect and that the bible has been writing by thousands of men. Therefor something is always lost threw conversions in language and threw the subtle diffrences bewtween each man. I at least find this to be resonable awnser.
SO TO THE POINT:
I seen some poeple post that THEY BELEAVE IN GOD, but that they dont think HE CAN JUDGE THEM, or that GOD WOULD HATE THEM FOR DOING X. Well it is my belief that if he does exsist, and that if you beleave that the bible is as closly accurate as it can possibly be then YES HE CAN JUDGE YOU. He doesnt HATE you if you dont, but he WILL punish you. I hate the fact that to beleave in chotholism that much of my life is filled of SIN and that im gonna burn in hell because of it, that is one of the things that makes me hate god.(yes i dont know if he does exsist, and right now if he does i kinda hate him)
Well thats my veiw on it all... if someone could tell me where i could find those (half arse quotes) i would apprciate it.
I've got this one covered.
"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear."
-- Jesus of Nazareth (Bible, 1 John iv. 18.)
-Ryan!
"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
-- Jesus of Nazareth (Bible, Matthew xvi. 26.)
I've got this one covered.
"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear."
-- Jesus of Nazareth (Bible, 1 John iv. 18.)
-Ryan!
"What is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?"
-- Jesus of Nazareth (Bible, Matthew xvi. 26.)<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Your quotes pwn once again.
This is the first topic on any forum that I have ever seen seem (To me) to go in favor of Christianity. (I am currious, are any of the administrators religious, I know that this would most likely cause some issues and I never post here, but I am a forum regular on a couple other forums and have seen a lot of posts like this on other forums and they always seem to go twards the oposite views(atheism). One of the reasons why I was wondering if somme of the admins/some people working on this mod are religious is because of how well behaved this forum is.)
I am Christian, and I do not beleive that violent games/movies are bad, but I think that these should not interfear with your releationship with God.
Also I would like to say that the huge majority of the Christians here are putting up a good image for us, and the reason some (I think) people turn atheist or even satanic are because of the people who claim to be Christians but don't show it. And a response to one of the things, I also have never seen a quick tempered true Christian.
I would also like to say that atheism is actually a relegion. It takes just as much faith to beleive in something that can be "proven" by scientific theories as it does to beleive in a God.
Anyone who says that there is no proof of a God, I ask you to just look at the world from an oposite perspective and think about it. To me it has been proven over and over again and because of my personal experiences I have grown to be a much better Christian through suffering, and I do not think that I would be a Christian if humans had no concept of pain/suffering.
And also I beleive God did not creat evil, he created a means for it to be here. Atempting to understand the way it works I personally think, is not possible, we have not experienced anything other than ourselves and the world we live it. Actually, most of us probably haven't even experienced 10% of the things that are even on the earth.
I think that everyone can see God in his/her surroundings, he/she just needs to look.
this time, ill just like to say something, im sure many of you will agree:
In Life, you can believe in anything and everything u so please. But in order to live a -pleasant- life, you should adhere to your social beliefs, such as respect and tolerance, non-ignorance, not being arrogant or snobbish, not being too overbearing. However if you do otherwise, just accept the possible consequences of your actions, that is all. I have found throughout my life that there is a very thin line separating right and wrong. i just hope all of us find our selves in this mad world.
Actions and Consequence has shaped our world and will forever do so, until the sun dies out.
as you can see im no longer talking about why religion is bad or not and its relation to Gaming, and i hope this is not too far off-topic, as well as my far-flung stories; but i do sincerely believe that the point about ACtions and Consequence goes a far way in the understanding of how the topic started anyway.
thanks for readin' <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
You cant use people as an example either. A persons religious beliefs rarely affects their temperament, it simply allows them to feel better about themselves and their actions. If they are good people then they are labeled "true believers" but thats silly. Their personal alignment doesnt affect their belief. They could be a violent, ignorant and hateful person and still believe in God, it just means they can justify themselves by saying they did what God would want.
The whole concept of religion is a good thing. However it came about, a religion always sets fundamental rules which, if everyone followed, would benefit society. Its the people that come afterwards that translate, add and otherwise 'interpret' the rules that always causes grief. The teachings of all the major religions Ive researched into all say things like be nice to each other, dont kill etc and how can anyone really disagree with that?
Oh, I also hate the idea of having to fear a God as well as love him/her/it and, if I had a choice, would choose to follow a religion without that. I do understand it though... its hard to describe. The best way Ive heard to describe it was in the Narnia books, Aslan is described as terrifying and yet the most wonderful, lovely thing ever. Read any of the Narnia series if you want to understand (The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe etc by C.S.Lewis (mentioned by legionnaired earlier).
BTW Legionnaired. The idea C.S.Lewis was talking about was a version of the 'Trademark Argument' by Descartes (who has adapted it from other people). It has been proven wrong about a billion times. Sorry <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
On judging, if God exists then he/she/it could Judge you. No-one else is able to judge your life though.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I think that everyone can see God in his/her surroundings, he/she just needs to look.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Yes Bronto, but we can make ourselves see anything. We can see beauty everywhere too if we try hard enough but that doesnt mean everything is beautiful. Its not a case of finding something thats there, its a case of looking at things in the right light, the right attitude. This is a trick anyone can learn and Im afraid doesnt prove much <!--emo&:(--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':('><!--endemo-->
Josiah, Ive had talked to many vicars, priests etc for hours at a time. Ive stayed round a vicars house twice and helped plan a service with another one. In fact Ive even watched a porn movie round a vicars house <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo--> (thats another story for another time <!--emo&:p--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':p'><!--endemo-->). We always end up disagreeing. I personally dont believe its possible to sway someone with logical arguments. Either you are a believer or you arent. Those who have 'seen the light' have normally always believed in something but have never named that something because theyve never questioned it, because they werent in the right crowd etc. Those who dont believe never will and although they might say they do will always doubt. Its about Faith, the whole point of which is... well its almost an irrational belief, there is <i>no</i> proof, you just believe!
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->You watched a television show and decided that there is no such thing as Free Will?
Holy Crap! Turn off the damn T.V. already. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
Spooge dont be silly, it was simply a useful example of what I have always thought. Oh and this is not a flame, nor was his. Dont lock the topic for that as its been a good one so far.
This is weird, I tend to play Devils Advocate in alot of arguments but Religion is a question thats always been important to me and even though my personal conclusion is that there is no god that doesnt mean I dont understand and try to protect wholeheartedly those ideals that so many people believe in and rely upon.
Keep the discussion going if you have anything more to add, I love this stuff 8D (no more emoticons 8(... 8D)
You cant use people as an example either. A persons religious beliefs rarely affects their temperament, it simply allows them to feel better about themselves and their actions. If they are good people then they are labeled "true believers" but thats silly. Their personal alignment doesnt affect their belief. They could be a violent, ignorant and hateful person and still believe in God, it just means they can justify themselves by saying they did what God would want.<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
I agree whole-heartedly here.. suprisingly <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->.
That large orginisation thing is probably why my church is organised into small, decentralized bible studies.
The group I'm in now has about 20 high school guys, talking about life, bitching about life, talking about the Bible, and seeing how we can apply it to our lives.
There's no money changing hands, no irrational demands.... It's truely one of the things that's made me grow as a Christian, mainly because 90% of the stuff I've learned about God is stuff I've read about, prayed about, and made my own interpretation of.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->I personally dont believe its possible to sway someone with logical arguments. Either you are a believer or you arent. Those who have 'seen the light' have normally always believed in something but have never named that something because theyve never questioned it, because they werent in the right crowd etc. Those who dont believe never will and although they might say they do will always doubt. Its about Faith, the whole point of which is... well its almost an irrational belief, there is no proof, you just believe!
<!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
SO what you're saying is that you cannot convert a person with systems and argumetns of this world? You are saying that it takes something greater to do so? <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
It did for me. I'm a Christian now because of the irational, and illogical power of God. I know that sounds odd, but believe me. If you knew me before I started coming around, you would believe it too. I was, quite possibly, <i>the</i> most concieded and arrogant person I've ever met back then. So says almost everyone who knew me back then.
People don't change like that all of a sudden, not in my experience anyway, unless there is something much greater than logic involved.
That's just the thing, yes I deserve to go to hell, BUT I don't have to! That debt was paid. "You are called to be free from the law, but do not use your freedom to live a sinful life." -Bible, new testament, further reference unknown
Also, I am feeling quite distressed that people speak of proof to the existence of God or some manner of his being. I point you to an individual's several pages long mathematical proof, sorry can't remember the name of the guy (maybe I can dig it up), saying "I am not provable"
What this says is two-fold but can be condensed.
1: He is true but not provable
2: He is false and provable
result: What is true and what is provable are unrelated
And also, some seem to be attempting to lessen God's image by making it abundantly clear that they don't believe in Him.
"A man can no more diminish the glory of God by refusing to worship him than a lunatic can blot out the sun by writing the word "darkness" on his cell wall"
-C.S. Lewis
As always, no offence intended.
A few reasons I don’t and never will believe in god.
1. There is no way that I’ll ever believe in something that is un-provable, just because you can’t prove that he doesn’t exist doesn’t mean anything to me unless you can prove that he does.
2. I can’t understand hoe anyone can believe in a particular god when there are simply so many religions all claiming that they are worshiping the real god. Some people say that it doesn’t matter which god you believe in because they are all connected to god, and it is that which matters. I don’t get this either because different religions are always squabbling amongst each other.
3. I don’t believe in god, but that doesn’t make me try to impose that on other people, and it is fairly rare that atheists do. Some atheists don’t treat religious people with the respect they deserve, but they certainly do not go around knocking on doors telling people they should not believe in god, unlike some religious groups who actively go out trying to make people see the “right way”.
4. I can’t get past the fact that there is so much wrong with religion and yet it is supposed to be god’s way to live life. If I were god I’d be mighty annoyed at what a shambles the average faith is.
I thank you for your attitude. I was once a pretty devout Christian. However I have come to view the world in terms of such scientific theories. As in any religion, my belief and faith in the ability to correctly justify things may not be based on truth. It is not for us to know what is the whole truth, but we must work on trying to continually justify the world.
Does my disbelief in a 'higher-power' lead me to be an evil or a sinful person? Ignoring the fact that both of these words only have meaning within a life of a religious belief that practices such concepts, I don't feel I am. I live my life to a set of values, morals and good-will which I have had not defined for me by a large organisation, but defined by myself to keep me a decent person. I believe that people in general are decent, I believe in correct punishment for those who harm other people and I believe that there is more safety in scientific proof than there is in unquestioning belief.
I apologise to anyone who is active in their local religious community, but I believe that most modern religions are nothing more than the decaying voice of the state. I see more comparisons between McDonalds and churches than I do between proper religious beliefs and churches.
<!--QuoteBegin--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td><b>Quote</b> </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own argument, you don't. QED."
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic. <!--QuoteEnd--></td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'><!--QuoteEEnd-->
<!--emo&:D--><img src="http://www.natural-selection.org/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->